To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?
I tried to list experiences in chronological order.

1. Sitting in meditation, watching thoughts as external mindchatter, they disapered and a nice "energetic feeling" appeared in the body. Bright light appeared with closed eyes It was 6 years ago so i'm only almost sure that the bright light flickerd.
The following days were full of joy, like a natural high. I thought my life had changed and that i'd always be able to meditate and feel so good...

2. After a long period without practice i felt discontent with my self. About not being mindful enough. Don't remember all negative feelings that occured.

3. Back to meditation, just watching, can't remember any extraordinary stuff happening in the meditation, but i regained a feeling of happiness, a sence of meditation filles my reality with a nicer "energy".

4. Again a long period without practice. Discontentment with the fact that i'm not feeling the nice vibes but belif that it can come back.

5. When meditating i had and still gets a feeling of a nice pressure on and inside the head. Now adays i'm used to it and can observe it calmly, it becomes my center of attention until other objects arrise. It can occure while reading about the path. I have sometimes tried to cultivate compassionate toughts that helps me to start the meditation.

6. I have been very negative to the fact that i allow temptation and ignorance to "get me".

7. At some point i started to read about the three carachteristics. I'm still not sure if i got passed that stage or if i'm only intellectual aware of them. For me it's pretty obvious that all i observe comes and goes and that it can't be fundamental happiness. The stuff my brain and body produces is temporary and not the true self. These facts are getting to me more and more in daily life, not only in the sitting.

8. One time just lying down, i had a nice experience of dissconection with the body, it was like the mind was floating. I observed it, i wasn't trying to float away from the body, i knew where i were.

9. I did recently, after many years, shift from a crossed legged postition to the chair... I have during many years just meditated maximum one hour a time and then laying down to try to continue. This was because of my bad posture and aversion towards pain. Just before the shift to chair i watched the pain and it was less painfull and little bit more like heat. I could sit longer, but i decided to change to the chair so i could observe other stuff than pain.

10. One time sitting in a valley i got a clear feeling of that all i see here is a fabrication of my brain. My brain makes these energies out there look like individual objects. I had the intuition of this being really true, and i still belive it.

I can't recall experiencing stuff from the 6 sensedoors at the same time, as i read about recently(formations). Is it possible i have done it while observing but not knowing what it was because lack of studying theory? I don't recall getting strong visualtations of the body exploding, opening of flowers or anything like that.
I do feel a nice peacefull energy in my body at times. And if i wonder about something about the path i make a mental question. The answer can come as a subtle thought with nice energy. And then the doubt about it disapears. Hehe i now see that I really should apply that on this question about my stage... But this time when i wondered i got an e-mail about this site.

I just read Daniel Ingram's text about Arahants and that really calmed me down. I had always bad feelings about giving in to temptations, but now i'm more relaxed about them. I'm not full of worry about where i am on the stages of enlightment but i belive that now it would be good to know.

Thanks

/Viktor
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Jackson "awouldbehipster" Wilshire, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 97 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
Hello Viktor,

I wouldn't say that anything you've written describes a "stage of enlightenment." Though, some of what you wrote sounds like you could have been moving through some of the stages of the Progress of Insight, which is quite normal.

- Bright lights and pleasant energetic feelings are likely to occur during the Arising and Passing Away (i.e. A&P) stage.
- The feelings of discontentment that follow the A&P stage are usually attributed to one or more of the "dark night" stages (i.e. dukkha ñanas). Again, this is quite normal.
- I'm not able to correlate anything else you wrote to any particular stage or set of stages. There's just not enough information here.

For more information on the experience of the Progress of Insight, definitely refer to Daniel's Book. Start here.

Also, it would be helpful to fill us in on what type of practice you're doing. Are you doing Mahasi style noting, or body scanning, or something else? Whatever it is that you're doing, try to keep detailed notes of what is happening during each sit, from start to finish. That way, you can recognize patterns and compare your notes to the descriptions in Daniel's book, as well as those in Mahasi Sayadaw's book "Practical Insight Meditation", available in full at Google Books.

I hope this is helpful. Practice well.
~Jackson
Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
Thank you Jackson for wanting to help!
And yes.. I meant stage of progress. Sorry about that.
The noting i'm doing is whatever pops up... I start with breath and then when something else comes up i try to note it and if something follows it. I then return to noting breath and sometimes i think i've just noted silence. I don't follow any certain tradition.

Best Wishes

Viktor
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Jackson "awouldbehipster" Wilshire, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 97 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
Hi Viktor,

So, you're doing noting practice. Great! Traditions aside, Mahasi Sayadaw teaches provides the best noting instructions I've ever read in Practical Insight Meditation (link provided in my first post). If you haven't read it, I strongly recommend that you do. It's a short book, but it's full of useful information.

Just keep making time to practice, every day if possible, and keep detailed notes of what you're experiencing. If you have any questions about what you're experiencing, or what you should be doing, feel free to post them in the forum. I don't spend that much time in this forum, but there are quite a few others who are great at answering questions about dharma diagnosis.

Practice well, my friend.
~Jackson
Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
Thanks Jackson.

I had this happening last night:

i was watching an old memory that had happend many years ago. I was talking with someone who asked me "Are you russian?" and i answered no, im swedish. Then i realized that i still have this feeling of this I, even if it observes its thoughts, emotions and perceptions. I wanted to observed this underlying feeling of a perciver, i had to concentrate on the spot between the eyes and try to shift from observing the spot to observe this assumption of a continous self in the head that experience whatever comes up. It was hard and i could only do it for some seconds because i fell back to observe other distractions like the tought of I instead of the feeling of I. The experience came with an energy moving upwards in the head. I felt that this deep rooted feeling of i who observes is just another temporary feeling.

I wrote the text above just after the experience.


This "perciver" feels much more empty now, I've had this feeling before when just observing and after practice, i understand this sensation better now. I'm still not sure where i am in the progress of insight,

Best Wishes

Viktor
Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
Hi

In the quest for understanding where i am i thougt it would be appropriate to fill in info about the latest meditaition.
I woke up this morning feeling kind of shit and stupid.
Start of meditation session.
It took some minutes for these feelings to change while observing them and denying them as self. Then I had neutral feeling and observed sensations. Towards the end of the 1h. meditation session rose the question about space. What is space? This was not intended to meditate upon when i started the session but it was very intresting watching the thoughts about space develope. The toughts that arrised are: If it can be percived it must be something that's generated by mind and not seperate from all that looks like materia. I opened the eyes and watched the wall and got the intuition that the wall, the space and the experiencer must be the same reality.
Feeling positive. End of meditation session.

I think that experience of space and materia is all in the mind.

Sometimes i wonder if im doing insight meditation or just sitting down philosophising.

Where do you guys think i am in the progress of insight?

Best wishes

Viktor K
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Jackson "awouldbehipster" Wilshire, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 97 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
Viktor K:
Sometimes i wonder if im doing insight meditation or just sitting down philosophising.

Where do you guys think i am in the progress of insight?


Hi Viktor,

Truthfully, it sounds like you're doing a lot of philosophizing. Maybe not "just" philosophizing, but a good deal of it nonetheless. Nothing you described in your latest post sounds like a clear description of any of the stages of insight (or ñanas) - at least not to me. They may be others in the forum with differing opinions.

There's nothing wrong with philosophizing. It's just not the same thing as vipassana. 'Round here, practice comes before philosophizing, for the simple reason that it's not a good idea to jump to conclusions before obtaining sufficient data. The only way to really get sufficient data is to practice well, and practice often.

As I recommended before, read Mahasi Sayadaw's Practical Insight Meditation, and follow the instructions to the 'T'. Then, explain in very basic terms what is occurring in your experience. It's simple, but not easy. Give it your best shot and report what you discover.

All the best.
~Jackson
Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
Hi!

Jackson, thanks for your advices, i'll check into your links.
I want to say that the thoughts that i observe in meditation about space and stuff like that doesnt come up often and have another feel to them than thoughts that has nothing to do with understanding of the path. I have to get an intuitive feel about that its true for me to take them seriously.

This is the latest experiences.. I feel very ease to meditate right now so it happens alot.. And i'm home alone until monday so i'm doing more practice than usual..

After dinner and a walk to the park to sit and note, i went home to note what was happening at each sensedoor. To note taste and smell was hardest as i'm not used to note them when they're neutral. But i was noting the neutral smell and taste and also the phsical sensation of the tounge, the neutral sounds and the darkness of my eyes closed was also noted. Sometimes a new physical or mental sensation arrose and my attention flipped to that, but then back to the first 5 + mental sensation of neutralness. After a while i noted a really nice energy, like the consciousness was much lighter i continued to be aware of the other sensedoors. When the pleasant feeling disapered i just continued from pleasant noting to neutral noting of the 5 doors. Then came the headache. And I still noted neutral smell, taste, seeing and hearing, but the whole mental sensation was unpleasant because of that physical one.

I came to the conclusion that if all of the sensedoors are experiencing something neutral, then the mental feeling is neutral. If one of the sensedoors starts to notice something pleasant, then the whole mental experience is pleasant, even if you continue noting the neutral taste and so on.
The same applied to noting the headache. Even if i still noted neutral smell, taste, sound and vision, the unpleasantness of the physical headache made the whole mental experience becoming unpleasant.

I noted tierdness and went to bed but I kept on noting. I must have fallen asleep beacause then suddenly i was awake, fully aware with all senses clear. Normally it takes time for me to adjust from sleep to beeing awake but not this time.

Well just another afternoon nap i think, with a twist.
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Jackson "awouldbehipster" Wilshire, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

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OK Viktor, now we're getting somewhere!

Viktor K:
(...) After a while i noted a really nice energy, like the consciousness was much lighter i continued to be aware of the other sensedoors.


This sounds like it could be a shift into the first insight knowledge called Mind & Body. When noting gains steady momentum, a shift occurs very much like first shamatha jhana, where nice pleasant sensations arising as a side effect of steady concentration. This is also when it becomes very clear what is "mind" (nama) and what is "material" (rupa). This distinction is critical, and leads directly to the next stage...

Viktor K:
When the pleasant feeling disapered i just continued from pleasant noting to neutral noting of the 5 doors. Then came the headache. And I still noted neutral smell, taste, seeing and hearing, but the whole mental sensation was unpleasant because of that physical one.

I came to the conclusion that if all of the sensedoors are experiencing something neutral, then the mental feeling is neutral. If one of the sensedoors starts to notice something pleasant, then the whole mental experience is pleasant, even if you continue noting the neutral taste and so on.
The same applied to noting the headache. Even if i still noted neutral smell, taste, sound and vision, the unpleasantness of the physical headache made the whole mental experience becoming unpleasant.


Nice. This sounds a lot like the second insight knowledge, referred to as Cause & Effect. You're noticing how sensations lead to mind states, and how mind states lead to sensations. There are causes and effects to all that is experienced. One thing leads to another.

Noticing the unpleasantness is good, as it is an aspect of the suffering/dukkha characteristic. The next stage, called Knowledge of Comprehension or simply Three Characteristics, can be quite unpleasant. So, don't worry about making yourself comfortable. It can be almost impossible until you've moved on to the next stage. Practice through the discomfort and you should be fine. Just keep noting as you've been doing, and you should proceed nicely.

My apologies if I am over explaining any of this. Let me (and the others) know if you need any further clarification.

Keep it up!
~Jackson
Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
Jackson,
Thank you very much for taking your time to clarify this.
I just read the Practical Insight Meditation book you told me about. Wow, it seems like i need to be more aware of intentions in daily life.
Your explanation is very good.
Thanks

Viktor
Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
Hiemoticon

I have done 2 more sittings since yesterday. I have finally realased how the progress works... Until yesterday i thoght that if i've been through one stage one time in life i didn't have to look for it again. So i wasnt looking for Mind and Body or Cause and effect because i related these stages to something i had been through long ago.

In the first sitting, yesterday night, I noted the Mind and Body again with it pleasantness, then cause and effect and then started the itchy sensations arrising on different locations on the body. I've been sitting through itch before so i just waited them out as i knew they would disapear. Then they kept coming stronger and i asked my self what they want to tell me, so i started to concentrate more on the acutal sensation than just noting it. I saw that the sensation is not only temporal in the fact that it comes and goes. It was also constantly changing while being there. The degree of intensisty of itchyness was changing from the arrising of the sensation til the end of it. Then there were a moment when i lost concentration, thinking about this. Then there were concentration and i noted yet another fast mind and body and Cause and effect following a lower back pain. I also noted the changing intensity of that pain and then came headache and light nausea that also was changing.
then i was saved by the bell. (end of session)

I woke up this morning noting on automatic. I was still newly awake after a night sleep not very sharp, but i was noting sensations. Then happend something hard to explain. It was like consciousness was moving fast forward through a very pleasant energy. Or like a pleasant energy was hitting me fast. It was lasting just a couple or a few seconds and had a much more immaterial feel to it than the energy in the physical head in Mind and Body. I tried to experience it again and i thought that if i sit up and meditate it's more likley to reoccure.

2nd sitting.
I was fully awake now and couldn't concentrate, i was more thinking of the experience i had in bed and i thought that if that was Arrising and Passing away, it already had passed away and wasn't likley to occure again in this sitting, so i started to develope more concentration. It was hard to concentrate, i noted some itchy feelings but they were not intense nor lasting long. I noted a strange feeling in the middle of the chest, a wound-like feeling, not as strong as an actual opend wound. It disapered after a minute or less. Then I noticed white shimmer before my closed eyes. It was like tiny white particals making up a cloud that was moving around before me. They weren't very bright, they didn't blend me. They came with a nice less heavy experience of consciousness. I felt that my eyeballs wasn't steady so i opened my eyes and tried to fix my eyes in a crossed position, then the cloud of shimmer was gone and didn't come back. The rest of that meditation session was just a pretty unconentrated history with some itch aswell. (end of session)


So i suppose that the experience in bed was Arrising and Passing away?
What was the little shimmer?
Do every sitting start with Mind and Body or is it just when you haven't meditated in a while?
What can i expect now?

Best Wishes
from a very thankful
Viktor
Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
Hi, i think i've got it how to compare my meditation with the maps but i''ll continue writing about it so you can correct me if im way over my head.

The before lunch sitting.
Start of meditation
I had a hard time focusing on breath so i focused instead on the vague background noise i could hear. I'm not sure if it was background noise in my head or from a pipe from the appartmentbuilding but it doesn't matter. Some times I could also hear a high pitch beep for some time. Then I was looking for the neutral emotion this sound should cause and I also found a hint of tristesse. I was investigating this emotion when suddenly a thought of me saying something ridiculous popped up. I didn't find it funny at first, but when i was thinking about it my mood changed gradually to actual smile. Then I forgot about it and focused on the background sound. And the tristesse came in. I then couldn't help but contemplate about that the emotion didn't get replaced by a complete different emotion but it gradually changed it self to something other.
Then I went back to focusing on breath and background sound. After a while I got the wierdest sensation in the vein passing my neck, the lower left part, close to the shoulder. It was as the vein was pumping chunks of blood so heavy was the pulsating sensation. It felt like the vein was expanding out of the neck eache time. And the pulsation differented from slow to fast in such ways i now realize it couldn't have been the pulse from the actual heart beat. Any way I was also observing emotion. The Neutral/Tristess emotion changed to an emotion of interess and aversion. When the pulse rate changed from fast to hysterically fast this emotion gradually changed with it to fear and worry. I was thinking that an emotion never stays the same, its constantly changing/being replaced each moment. When the emotion got more neutral with the pulsation, the pulsation stopped. I noted a neutral emotion, without tristesse this time. Then came the headache and i was so avare of my emotion that it stayed neutral even when the headache came. I just looked at the physical discomfort but i actually welcomed it. Noticing that the headache couldn't affect my neutral emotion i laughed a little bit internally and thought "In your face, headache, in your face!" Then The headache disapead as i lnvestigated its vibrations more. Then came a really pleasant energy covering the body, when i was thinking this was nice but I stopped my self and thought that if i get attached to this nice vibe then the headache will cause me dammage if it comes back and interrupts, With that thought i stayed as emotional neutral as possible to the nice vibration and then it disapered and other minor headaches and thoughts and other stuff was also noted neutrally before the end of the session.


I couldn't predict this meditations to happen but when it has happend i do recognize them. Last time i had this neutral emotion about unpleasant feeling was 3 months ago when i did the most intensive meditation in my life. It was 10 days with many hours a day, inspired by flyer that toled the rules of a "10 days introduction to vipassana meditation course". The lesson was 100 times harder 3 months ago with many tears about this self might not be rememberd next life even if i believe in reincarnation. I also cried alot when thinking about any relative and loved one. But as I had commited to ten days it passed one way or another and i remember that when came this looking at things neutrally, it caused a bliss that was much stronger than now, probably because it was coming from such a dark night.

I don't know if i have progressed earlier to more than to this stage i think i am in now. I don't really understand the descriptions of high equanamity. I think that after coming this far in the past i have regressed to the dark night after reentering in common life with not even 1 h sitting a day.

Hell im really new at the maps maybe this is still cause and effect?
Please tell me what you think.

Love

Viktor
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Jackson "awouldbehipster" Wilshire, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 97 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
Hi Viktor.

Great reporting. First things first…

You're right in saying that a yogi does not usually pass through an insight stage (or, ñana) once while working toward a Path (in your case, working toward First Path, or stream entry). Once you have made it past a stage, one of two scenarios may occur: (1) You may get stuck in a higher stage for a while, and basically live your life from that place until you can move past it, or (2) You will cycle through each stage you've previously visited ever time you sit, starting at Mind & Body (1st ñana) and up to the highest ñana you've made it to thus far. From what I can gather from your reports, your experiencing the latter. Both have happened for me. As I mentioned above, sometimes I will get stuck in Three Characteristics (3rd ñana) until I am able to cross the A&P (4th ñana). But after some time, I will naturally cycle from 1st ñana up to the highest ñana I've made it to for that particular insight cycle, and then continue to practice in order to cover more ground.

And that's what I recommend that you do. Prior to each sit, make a simple resolution to quickly pass through each of the stages you've already made it through, in order to climb up to new territory that needs to be experienced so you can successfully traverse more stages. Make sense?

From what I can tell, you are cycling through the first three stages and getting at least to early A&P territory, as indicated by the "nice vibrations" you wrote about. What I don't know is whether or not you're actually passing through the A&P, or simply tip-toeing around the edges of it (so to speak) and the dropping back down in the 3rd ñana. It's hard to know for sure, because some of the dark night stages (ñanas 6-10 - the dukkha ñanas) are pretty similar to the 3rd ñana in some ways, as they are all pretty uncomfortable.

So, resolve to pass through all of the territory you've experienced thus far. Once you have, keep noting. Don't lose momentum. If you cross the A&P, you'll reach the Dissolution stage (5th ñana), which feels like a fizzy release, almost as if your body and mind turn into soda pop. Some pretty dark stuff usually follows, but don't worry about it. It's just what happens next.

Is that helpful? I hope so. Keep us posted.
~Jackson
Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
One millon thanks to you Jackson for helping me understand how the maps work, and another million thanks to Daniel for writing a book about them. I feel so lucky to have understood this. And i'm really amazed that it can apply to every single meditator.
Last meditation i was supposing beforehand that i was in early equanimity... So i was expecting space as i had read Daniels book.
Yesterday I set the alarm clock for 2 hours instead of 1.
The first thing that i noted when sitting down was that my attention was at emptyness or nothing in particular, all other was in the background. I dont know if this was because of my will to be in equanimity but it was the neutral point of my focus when sitting down, nothingness or space. I could just rest easily in a neutral place, aware of space. I thought "My appartment just got more spacious and why buy a bigger house or tear down a wall when all you need is to meditate". After 30 minutes or so I noted that my mind was starting to be excited about what space is, it started to philosophise about it but i didn't care first, just focusing on space/nothing. But I think I became a little to comfortable because suddenly I was thinking what the mind was saying, so i tried to stop it but it was like taking a step back to try with force so there came back some headaches. At this time i realized that i had probably just been sitting for one hour and I regretted to have set the alarm for 2 but i hung in there as good as i could. As i didn't want to listen to mind speach nor headaches i focused on breath. In some times it was like the breath, the touch of my ass on the chair and the feeling of my feet on the floor was the only sensations floating in that space that i had as primary object in the beginning. I thought it might be formations. When regressing to headaches i also felt too warm and i had to readjust my position, itch some skin and take of my shirt by what could have been around the last half our of the 2 hour session. Is this counted as dropouts?
Back to bed i still had spacious awareness and it was like i had been drinking three double espressos as i couldnt sleep until after dawn. Of course the caffeine effect was just affecting the mind, not the body. I had not been drinking coffe nor tea.

This morning I woke up with symptoms of getting a cold, with the soar throat. My mom just had a minor cold and i visited her yesterday. I wasn't happy about going to sit down and noticing the cold, but actually when sitting down my focus went on nothing particular again and i had become "comfortably numb" with a sense of body in the background, so i didn't even notice the throat. Yeah it wasn't much more, the hour passed pretty fast, of course i was noting sensations as they arrose but it was in the background of my primary spacious attention. The awareness was little bit of dissconection of body, there were body sensation but it had not to do with me. I had harder time to seperate thoughts from the spacious feeling, they penetrate it sometimes.

I feel good right now and i'm going to keep on meditating this time, i don't have an appartment of my own so it's gonna be hard to do it as much as i did this week but i really dont wanna go back to unawareness this time, i have been there to much in my life.

If nothing new comes up tonight then i'm going to try to pass through each stage again like Jackson said, either tonight or tomorrow morning. But at the same time i really dont want to regress to darknight if im in equanamity right now..

By the way, this may be off topic but while being stuck at my philosophies of space i remember three of them. 2 of them were paradoxal...
1. Space is seperating everything, if you take away space everythingwillimplode.
2. Space is connecting everything, if there were nothingness instead of space everything would be in a seperate world as there would be nothing in between them.
3. Space constantly changes as things move in it, im not sure if it moves by it self.
I wonder this, you guys and gals who have experienced the reality of space (sorry if im obsessed by space). Does space has a vibration to look for? A vibration that different space from nothingness?

Best wishes

Viktor
Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
I just want to clarify why i think i'm at equanamity. Reading more about the stages of progress I recognize a couple of important passings i didn't write about eariler because i didn't remember it while writing before or i didn't take them as important.

1. Mindy Body= When i got the first nice vibe in the head as i've got 100 times before. Thanks Jackson to getting me started telling me that this was Mind and Body.

2. Cause and effect= When I noted that when all sensedoors are neutral, the experience of an unpleasant external sensation while affect the mental sensation from neutral to unpleasant. Thanks again Jackson.

3. The Three Characteristics=I had a complete unpleasant sitting with just itch. I had felt itch hours before the session and even showered before in attempt to reduce the eventual experience of itch in the comming sitting. But the itchy sensations kept coming and on concentration of just the itch i experienced the middle part of them strongly. I noticed them come more and more strongly and i saw how they always were changing in intensitivity until they finnaly vanished while they got replaced by another itch. This session is the first one that i wrote about 4/30/10 4:45 AM.

4. Arrising and passing away= I wrote in the same post about waking up noting clearly.. I can add that there were no verbal thoughts, just noting a drousy newly awake sensation plus whatever happend right there. Then the energy that hit me. It was a flickering experience fast forward experience to the consciousness, it didnt include the body. It was like what could happend to someone who had to much of something thats only legal in Amsterdam. It lasted just about 2-5 seconds.

5. Dissulotion= It's about experiencing only the end. This is the missing link for you as I didn't understand that it was important. But i have had the sensation when looking at breath that my mind was really really slow, i could't follow breath. When trying to note the beginning i only saw the end. This happend probably in the same post as the 2 stages above when i said i had a session with no concentration. At the time i wrote i thought this experience was just bad concentration as i didn't know what dissulotion was. These words are new to me, im swedish and i belive i'm used to speak english but not so advanced english.

6 Fearfulness= This one i'm not really sure about. I don't recall right now when this happend.

The rest of the dark night i went through in the 4/30/10 12:26 PM post.

7. Misery= -" Then I was looking for the neutral emotion this sound should cause and I also found a hint of tristesse."

8. Disgust= -"I was investigating this emotion when suddenly a thought of me saying something ridiculous popped up. I didn't find it funny at first, but when i was thinking about it my mood changed gradually to actual smile." I wrote i didn't thought it was funny first. This must have been disgust towards even funny things. When I thought it was funny later i can now add that it was with contemplation that i've used humor in my life for repressing sadness.
If this wasn't the Disgust it could also have been -"After a while I got the wierdest sensation in the vein passing my neck, the lower left part, close to the shoulder. It was as the vein was pumping chunks of blood so heavy was the pulsating sensation. It felt like the vein was expanding out of the neck eache time." That's a more handson disgust than the first disgust toward funny things.

9. Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance= Belive me when I say I desired to get out of all from sensation of misery to pulsating vains to headaches. The vein story had the strong sensation of wanting to run out to the bathroom mirror and reassure that my vein wasn't completly disformed.

10. Knowledge of Re-observation= But I kept looking at the vein as i knew it was all temporary. And when it ceased...

11. Knowledge of Equanimity about Formations= -"I was thinking that an emotion never stays the same, its constantly changing/being replaced each moment. When the emotion got more neutral with the pulsation, the pulsation stopped. I noted a neutral emotion, without tristesse this time. Then came the headache and i was so avare of my emotion that it stayed neutral even when the headache came. I just looked at the physical discomfort but i actually welcomed it. Noticing that the headache couldn't affect my neutral emotion i laughed a little bit internally and thought "In your face, headache, in your face!" Then The headache disapead as i lnvestigated its vibrations more. Then came a really pleasant energy covering the body, when i was thinking this was nice but I stopped my self and thought that if i get attached to this nice vibe then the headache will cause me dammage if it comes back and interrupts, With that thought i stayed as emotional neutral as possible to the nice vibration and then it disapered and other minor headaches and thoughts and other stuff was also noted neutrally before the end of the session."


I wrote in the last post that i would relook at my stages tonight or tomorrow... Well I'm not sure because i really like to sit and just watch, not regressing. If this really is equanamity i'm not sure if it will take me days to reachive it.

Best wishes

Viktor
Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
Strangest day(s) of my life. 1st of may - 2nd of may.
Having tea at my grandmother's i asked is it raining? as i turned to the window. Seconds after realising it was not raining it started to rain...
I was a little tired after a saturday with relatives so i went to relax in bed when coming home but then i decided not to loose awareness again and stick to the program. I set the alarm for one hour.

First i needed a couple of minutes to readjust to focus on space. Then I remembered a situation at my mom's house earlier that day. She asked me if i wanted to have dinner, but i was really full after the late lunch and eating almost all the cookies my grandmother insisted upon. So i had to say no thanks. Then after some time she asked again and i reassured here that no i had eating alot already. I don't know if she asked one or two times more but it came to a point when i was concentrating at something at the computer (I have used her computer since yesterday because the computer with the internet in my appartment won't start since yesterday.) Well it came to a point that I became irritated and said in swedish that would be something like: for fucks sake i dont wanna eat i told you already like 10 times! She got a little offended but i continued at what i was doing. Well in the meditation i realized that the irritation from my side was unneassary and stupid because all she was doing was wanting to feed me, to have saturday supper with her son, her intention was never to get me irritated. Then my attention was on space again for a while. Mind contemplated on what i had been writing earlier that day on this forum. I came to a point when i got stuck at what I had been writing about my earlier session when my mind was thinking alot about space. It reappered many times in my mind. I then figured it out. The three things i remembered, each one represented one of the three charachteristics.
I think i remembered it in this order but i'm not sure about the order:
1.Space is changing when objects move. = Nothing is permanent
2. Space is connecting with everything in this world, making all one world. = No self. (Imaging nothingness instead of space between stuff. Things would not be able to relate, instead they would be their own distinguished worlds with nothing surronding them.)
3. Space is seperating one thing and the other = Suffering be cause it is a Wrong view. Because of the fact if you remove it everythingwouldimplode, it can't seperate anything. If you instead of removing space, replace it with nothing.. things would be surrounded by nothing and could only interact with it self, there would be nothing more, because it would be surrounded by nothingness. This world you know now is surrounded by nothingness, but all that can relate within this world is one as it connects with space. Space is not seperating us it is connecting us.

Then i opened my eyes looking at the painting in front of me. I was thinking now i really wanna know what time is! Then suddenly I was so focused at the painting that it disapered. I recognized it with a thing happening 3 months ago, when some light that entered my room disapered upon concentrating on it. Back then i thought it was because my eyes were closing by them self. Now i studied this disappering closer. I thought it must be my eyes being crossed, focusing so hard on whats on either side of the painting. Then i realized that with eyes crossed they had double vision and the painting didn't disapear with double vision. Then i discovered that it must be my vision sliding down concentrating on whats under the painting. This was more accurate because the painting was placed higher up on the wall than just in front of my eyes, and it disapered when my eyes were really focused just infront. Ok cool, not so strange then. But then i put my finger just infront of my eyes, at the level where things started to disapear and the finger also disappered, i saw the hand below the point but it was emptiness from the part of my hand the finger should be placed at. Then I put both my hands side by side infront with my thumbs pointing outwards. It appered a hole in the image of the center of the hand and it then spread upon focusing until having two pointing thumbs floating in the air.
I was playing around with this for a while as it was pretty amazing. Then I was thinking about time and I thought how does the Three Charachteristics apply to time. I was thinking Impermanens. Time is always on the move. That's clear. But what about no self? Everything that is, is now. Now is everything =no self. But what about suffering? The wrong view of seperation. Yesterday seperates from now as does the future. In seperation there is suffering and wrong view, dualism. And It's illusion as it's not now. Now is everything. Everything else is either nothing or illusion (Wrong view). Concept of tomorrow is not nothing, it is illusion and it causes suffering.

Then I wanted to discover nothingness but i was stuck at trying to understand awareness instead. Awareness could be of any object without interffering with it. I suppose it could also be of nothingness. Awareness is only now (no self). It made much more sense back when i was watching these thoughts then than it makes writing about it here...
After contemplating awareness for a while i really felt to get up as the energy was fading and i became aware of my body. I did not mind that the alarm had not called out. I looked at the alarm and realized it was not correctly set and that it already had passed 1 hour and a half.

When i write "I was thinking" it's actually me watching thoughts. The thoughts about space and time came with a very nice energy of understanding. You can think of an equation and you can solve one. This thinking was watching mind "solving an equation" + bliss in a package.

The text below is contemplating after writing the text above, not something that appeared in the sitting.
I'm not sure if awareness is only nothingess or both everything and nothingness at the same time. Does awareness change? Or is it only the objects of awarness that are changing.

If there were 2 seperate worlds, nothingness would be between them both because a world must be surrounded by nothingness. And if there is awareness of both worlds Then AWARENESS IS NOTHING!!!!!!! (The previous sentence evolved while typing and came with bliss in a package.)


So being aware or being awareness is being nothing. This realization i thank Cristina for, my beloved late best friend and teacher who told me 6 years ago to meditate upon: "Soy nada, soy nada" y mira. (Tell yourself "Im nothing" then watch the meditation.) She also told me that if i wonder about something, make a mental question and the answer might come.
Now i'm thinking, if u dont ask the question, the answer could pass you and you wouldnt see it. This is what might had happen in my meditation if i had not been questioning. I could have felt bliss, but would it come with such clear answers to my questions about space, time and nothingness?


Ok now it's already past lunch time and i slept nothing last night, feeling good. I sat down earlier to see if i could notice any cycles. When i close my eyes a minor pleasant energy moving towards my counsciousness. It's like a wind in the counsciousness, lasts not even a second. Then started the slow attention of mind that when focusing on inhale i find breath breathing out, it's already past me. Then i got a physical squeez around the heart, like it was being frightendt. It changes subtly to another vague discomfort. When i want to get out my focus sharpens and after some moments the discomfort gets neutral and my attention shifts from body to mind, it gets spacious and then just being in a nice energy, then suddenly this nice energy is really nice. Then it was hard to notice another a&p as i could stay in the really nice energy instead. Looking for a cycle i found dissulotion, i must have missed the a&p. then it continued cykling faster each cycle, sometimes i was lost so i was staying on wait for either arrising & passing or dissulotion to come back and i followed it again from there. Some times i had to search for where i left the concentration in the cycle in order to complete it. sometimes i could feel sublte shifts in my state without even noticing what was what. That was the easiest way to stay on a really nice energy.

I havent had food in over 20 hours but my stomach feels empty, not hungry, I've been awake for over 24 hours but i feel more awake than i would do any other normal day. The nice vibration are still in the head.
About nothingness. I also think now that nothing transcends everything.

Special thanks to Daniel and Jackson and anyone who teaches and actually help people to understand. You're worthy of the highest of respect.
Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
It's also important to understand the difference between awareness and experienceemoticon

Best wishes

Viktor
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 3199 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Thanks for your descriptions and thanks.

Just a few thoughts:

From an Insight point of view, sensations imply space.
From an insight point of view, either:
1) Awareness is objects
2) Objects are just self-manifest with no awareness at all
These are two ways of saying the same thing.

Thus, it is important to understand that awareness is inherent in experience, or that there is just experience and the concept of awareness is extra.

Low sleep, nice vibrations, makes me think A&P.

Daniel
Viktor K, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: To wich Stage of Enlightenment does this descripton fit in?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 4/27/10 Recent Posts
Yeap..
The bliss has faded away, i had some bright light coming up, and a strange situation with heavy breath until a death-like experience. The sleep is normal again. I studied more about A&P and understood it must have been that.
Now I've been worrying about personal choises in life and bizarre dangerous situations that could happend. I also have felt sad, espacially when eating. I don't remember much in the sitting, i think i've just watched these emotions. I also feel confused.
Thanks Daniel for your patience and advices

Best Wishes
Viktor

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