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ATTENTION!: It appears that our server has been hacked through this version of Liferay, meaning it is no longer secure, and so expect instability as we deal with this and attempt to upgrade to Liferay 7, which we failed to be able to do last year the last time the team attempted it, but we have no choice at this point, so bear with us as we try again. Save any long posts in a text file before posting them. You can follow me on Twitter at @danielmingram for updates if the site is down. Apologies for any complexity this causes. We will work as fast as we can. We have backups of the database, so hopefully nothing will be lost. Thanks to all helping with this complex process.

 

 

 

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Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network

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Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Daniel M. Ingram 9/3/13 6:00 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Nikolai . 9/3/13 6:25 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Nadav S 9/3/13 6:18 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Matthew 9/3/13 6:42 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network . Jake . 9/3/13 7:27 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Nikolai . 9/3/13 7:49 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Duane Eugene Miller 9/3/13 10:42 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Richard Zen 9/3/13 11:06 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Bruno Loff 9/4/13 4:56 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/4/13 5:12 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Fitter Stoke 9/4/13 9:19 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/4/13 9:34 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Chris Marti 9/4/13 9:42 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/4/13 10:37 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Chris Marti 9/4/13 11:23 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/4/13 11:35 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network . Jake . 9/4/13 11:50 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Tom O. 9/4/13 1:05 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/4/13 2:25 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network . Jake . 9/4/13 2:43 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Tom O. 9/4/13 2:47 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network M N 9/4/13 7:46 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Tom O. 9/4/13 8:37 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Chris Marti 9/4/13 9:11 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network PP 9/4/13 9:28 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon Ekstrand 9/4/13 3:31 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/4/13 3:52 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon Ekstrand 9/5/13 2:29 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Tom O. 9/5/13 7:25 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network . Jake . 9/5/13 8:31 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network . Jake . 9/5/13 8:35 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Fitter Stoke 9/5/13 9:00 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Nikolai . 9/5/13 9:35 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network . Jake . 9/5/13 10:35 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Jane Laurel Carrington 9/5/13 10:47 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network . Jake . 9/5/13 11:03 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Fitter Stoke 9/5/13 11:18 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/5/13 12:06 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/5/13 12:08 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Brian Eleven 9/5/13 12:32 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/5/13 12:38 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Brian Eleven 9/5/13 12:44 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/5/13 12:48 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/5/13 12:57 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network . Jake . 9/5/13 1:17 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Bagpuss The Gnome 9/5/13 2:30 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/5/13 2:52 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon Ekstrand 9/5/13 3:16 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/5/13 3:31 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/5/13 4:16 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network . Jake . 9/5/13 5:13 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/5/13 5:19 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon T. 9/5/13 6:28 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/5/13 6:29 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network . Jake . 9/5/13 3:42 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/5/13 3:46 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network . Jake . 9/5/13 3:50 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Brian Eleven 9/5/13 2:33 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Tom O. 9/6/13 8:47 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon T. 9/6/13 11:14 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Chris Marti 9/6/13 11:43 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Chris Marti 9/6/13 11:59 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/6/13 12:29 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon Ekstrand 9/6/13 12:35 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/6/13 1:17 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Chris Marti 9/6/13 1:21 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/6/13 1:33 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Chris Marti 9/6/13 1:41 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/6/13 1:58 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Matthew 9/6/13 3:19 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon Ekstrand 9/6/13 1:53 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Matthew 9/6/13 12:43 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Brian Eleven 9/6/13 3:32 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/6/13 3:50 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Phantom of the Opera 9/6/13 4:49 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Matthew 9/6/13 4:56 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon T. 9/6/13 5:01 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/6/13 5:13 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Daniel M. Ingram 9/6/13 10:57 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Fitter Stoke 9/9/13 9:17 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Daniel M. Ingram 9/9/13 9:25 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon T. 9/9/13 12:00 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon Ekstrand 9/9/13 2:49 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Brian Eleven 9/6/13 3:19 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Chris Marti 9/4/13 6:16 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon T. 9/4/13 6:42 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/5/13 10:02 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network . Jake . 9/5/13 10:29 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Daniel M. Ingram 9/5/13 2:42 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon T. 9/5/13 3:06 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Daniel M. Ingram 9/5/13 3:25 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon Ekstrand 9/5/13 3:27 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Pejn . 9/5/13 4:30 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network (D Z) Dhru Val 9/5/13 9:50 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Daniel M. Ingram 9/5/13 9:52 PM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon Ekstrand 9/6/13 3:09 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Bruno Loff 9/6/13 3:28 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon Ekstrand 9/6/13 4:42 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Tom O. 9/6/13 8:31 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/6/13 9:37 AM
RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network Simon T. 11/13/13 10:16 AM
So, some years ago the DhO split off into numerous groups, and them some of those split off to form some further groups, one of which was founded by Chris Marti and Tom Otvos and called the Dharma Forum Refugees Camp, which is now part of the Awake Network, run by them also.

The issues that split us all up long ago vanished, and they have again invited the DhO to merge back with them, with some of the advantages being that Joomla apparently offers advantages that Liferay doesn't, one of the big ones of which is cost, and other things related to upgradeability and some other capabilities.

Thus, I have been talking with them about merging back together on Joomla over at Awake Network, such that the DhO would become a group under that larger umbrella of the AN. It also apparently has a social network aspect, which has been missing here, and also allows personal messages more easily, allows groups (such as those interested in Magick) more easily, and the like.

Thoughts?

Daniel
Co-Founder, Owner, Overlord, Administrator, and Scut-monkey of the DhO

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/3/13 6:25 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
So, some years ago the DhO split off into numerous groups, and them some of those split off to form some further groups, one of which wasWhat founded by Chris Marti and Tom Otvos and called the Dharma Forum Refugees Camp, which is now part of the Awake Network, run by them also.

The issues that split us all up long ago vanished, and they have again invited the DhO to merge back with them, with some of the advantages being that Joomla apparently offers advantages that Liferay doesn't, one of the big ones of which is cost, and other things related to upgradeability and some other capWhat abput abilities.

Thus, I have been talking with them about merging back together on Joomla over at Awake Network, such that the DhO would become a group under that larger umbrella of the AN. It also apparently has a social network aspect, which has been missing here, and also allows personal messages more easily, allows groups (such as those interested in Magick) more easily, and the like.

Thoughts?

Daniel
Co-Founder, Owner, Overlord, Administrator, and Scut-monkey of the DhO


What about people talking about practices which may still make some of the awakenetwork's members nervous or of which they are against in some way? Or would the DhO be separate from their managing of discussion topics. Will it be an issue that the DhO is still inclusive of all the practices, views and approaches (and dogmas) that initially triggered the sangha split?

I have been reading (and have posted a few posts) there on the awakenetwork forum for some time now. From my reading and (possibly wrong impression), I don't think certain views and practices (welcomed or at least tolerated on the DhO) would be welcome nor tolerated by some of the members there. Discussion of the actual freedom practice, for example, I don't think would be openly welcomed (especially with how determined some can be discussing it, which is tolerated here at the DhO). This is my impression from reading some of the views of the members on the awakenetwork. Are you sure the issues are all laid to rest?

For example, my own practice has been influenced a lot by some of the actual freedom practices. I don't think i could talk about it openly on the forum without it causing unrest in some of their members. Would I be able to talk about my practice (and viewpoints that don't conform to others' viewpoints there) without problem? Perhaps Tom or Chris post their opinion openly on what they hope happens with the merger?

Nick

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/3/13 6:18 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
I hope that Chris and Tom will chime in on this topic, but my understanding is that the DhO would remain its own forum within Awake Network. Awake Network is set up to house multiple communities, and to encourage cross-talk between them while still giving each their own separate space. As it is right now, there are some public sections to the forum, and then there is the Dharma Refugees community within which there are some private forums only accessible to members. So, the DhO would be another community operating alongside Dharma Refugees on there.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/3/13 6:42 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:

What about people talking about practices which may still make some of the awakenetwork's members nervous or of which they are against in some way? Or would the DhO be separate from their managing of discussion topics. Will it be an issue that the DhO is still inclusive of all the practices, views and approaches (and dogmas) that initially triggered the sangha split?

I have been reading (and have posted a few posts) there on the awakenetwork forum for some time now. From my reading and (possibly wrong impression), I don't think certain views and practices (welcomed or at least tolerated on the DhO) would be welcome nor tolerated by some of the members there. Discussion of the actual freedom practice, for example, I don't think would be openly welcomed (especially with how determined some can be discussing it, which is tolerated here at the DhO). This is my impression from reading some of the views of the members on the awakenetwork. Are you sure the issues are all laid to rest?

For example, my own practice has been influenced a lot by some of the actual freedom practices. I don't think i could talk about it openly on the forum without it causing unrest in some of their members. Would I be able to talk about my practice (and viewpoints that don't conform to others' viewpoints there) without problem? Perhaps Tom or Chris post their opinion openly on what they hope happens with the merger?

Nick


Recently a poster on AN spoke positively about Gary Weber's model of enlightenment, which peaks with Gary's baseline: a total absence of affective emotion and (verbal) thought. These posts were well-received. That isn't a direct predictor of how AN members would react to AF discussion, but I expect there would be a difference in response between 1) aggressive proselytizing of AF doctrine and terminology, which is indeed painful to read, and 2) the way you (Nikolai) have adopted some specific AF practices in clearly defined ways to enhance your meditation practice.

I'd like to see DhO "become a group under that larger umbrella of the AN", but AN may have to post some kind of statement explaining why the site has private forums. IMO it would be productive and useful for AwakeNetwork to host many private, self-administrating communities dedicated to shared interests. There could be private communities for serious western magick practitioners, vajrayana meditators, etc. while the DhO remains a glorious public mosh pit of perspectives.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/3/13 7:27 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:


I have been reading (and have posted a few posts) there on the awakenetwork forum for some time now. From my reading and (possibly wrong impression), I don't think certain views and practices (welcomed or at least tolerated on the DhO) would be welcome nor tolerated by some of the members there. Discussion of the actual freedom practice, for example, I don't think would be openly welcomed (especially with how determined some can be discussing it, which is tolerated here at the DhO). This is my impression from reading some of the views of the members on the awakenetwork. Are you sure the issues are all laid to rest?

For example, my own practice has been influenced a lot by some of the actual freedom practices. I don't think i could talk about it openly on the forum without it causing unrest in some of their members. Would I be able to talk about my practice (and viewpoints that don't conform to others' viewpoints there) without problem? Perhaps Tom or Chris post their opinion openly on what they hope happens with the merger?

Nick


I'm sure there are lots of posters at AN who would value more active contributions from you, Nick. I certainly would! My sense is that tone of posting and collegiality are valued at AN above ideology. There was a lot of acrimony during the schisms; a lot of nonsense, ad hominem and strawman arguments on both sides. In the end, I think what was being run from was that tone and perhaps in some cases what it brought out in the future AN members. In other words, I see the founding of DFRC as motivated largely by a wish to have more even-tempered conversations about view and practice, rather than founding a place where actualist topics would be taboo. Some of that perception may be arising from past experience between some who have found value in actualism and some who now post a lot at AN. But I'm pretty sure everyone has moved beyond the stage of ad hominem and straw men arguments. Only way to find out is for you and other AN members who share your suspicion to give sharing a shot and see what happens.

Also, my assumption is that DhO on AN would be autonomous and I would be very surprised if Chris and Tom wanted to control it rather than leaving DhO to organize itself. But it would be nice to hear from them on their vision of how that would work.

Viva la differance ;)

ETA: oh, and the platform is a lot nicer in many ways imho.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/3/13 7:49 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
Nikolai .:


I have been reading (and have posted a few posts) there on the awakenetwork forum for some time now. From my reading and (possibly wrong impression), I don't think certain views and practices (welcomed or at least tolerated on the DhO) would be welcome nor tolerated by some of the members there. Discussion of the actual freedom practice, for example, I don't think would be openly welcomed (especially with how determined some can be discussing it, which is tolerated here at the DhO). This is my impression from reading some of the views of the members on the awakenetwork. Are you sure the issues are all laid to rest?

For example, my own practice has been influenced a lot by some of the actual freedom practices. I don't think i could talk about it openly on the forum without it causing unrest in some of their members. Would I be able to talk about my practice (and viewpoints that don't conform to others' viewpoints there) without problem? Perhaps Tom or Chris post their opinion openly on what they hope happens with the merger?

Nick


I'm sure there are lots of posters at AN who would value more active contributions from you, Nick. I certainly would! My sense is that tone of posting and collegiality are valued at AN above ideology. There was a lot of acrimony during the schisms; a lot of nonsense, ad hominem and strawman arguments on both sides. In the end, I think what was being run from was that tone and perhaps in some cases what it brought out in the future AN members. In other words, I see the founding of DFRC as motivated largely by a wish to have more even-tempered conversations about view and practice, rather than founding a place where actualist topics would be taboo. Some of that perception may be arising from past experience between some who have found value in actualism and some who now post a lot at AN. But I'm pretty sure everyone has moved beyond the stage of ad hominem and straw men arguments. Only way to find out is for you and other AN members who share your suspicion to give sharing a shot and see what happens.

Also, my assumption is that DhO on AN would be autonomous and I would be very surprised if Chris and Tom wanted to control it rather than leaving DhO to organize itself. But it would be nice to hear from them on their vision of how that would work.

Viva la differance ;)

ETA: oh, and the platform is a lot nicer in many ways imho.


My post was generally to spur clarity on the possible merger. I lost a lot of the will to share experiences a while back. Probably a combination of a serious lack of urge, life situation (e.g. I have just moved house and have more urges concerning work and setting up a life where I moved) but also the fact that on both sides of the fence it seemed that hybrid practices and the views associated caused people to react strongly in their own way. It seems a taboo subject these days I think. If it is talked about here you will get all sorts of reactions from the purists. And on the other side it could re-introduce some aspect that was related to why there was a split in the first place. Perhaps all my projections, but coupled with life and lack of urge, or rather lack of positive triggers to share, it just doesn't happen much anymore. It would be nice to have a place to discuss such things without the purists and the 'against' being so opposed. Would a merger create such a place?

Nick

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/3/13 10:42 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Do it.

emoticon

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/3/13 11:06 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
As long as people don't feel like they are being proselytized it should be comfortable working next to each other. People will likely dabble in many traditions as they go along.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/4/13 4:56 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I was keen on the idea when I first saw it, but then thought about it a bit more and I am no longer sure.

Of course, it would be cool to have all the nifty web 3.0 features. And in general it would be good to restore the link with the people who left the DhO in the unfortunate breakup of the community — this is the most important and compelling reason to join the AN (I think). However, I have a few objections.

Nick:
Discussion of the actual freedom practice, for example, I don't think would be openly welcomed (especially with how determined some can be discussing it, which is tolerated here at the DhO).


One of the features of the DhO is that it is quite lenient towards fringe practices and views. I like that, even if it means putting up with CCC's brand of self-help, Claudio's AF agenda, and other rants (of which I have quite a few myself). I don't know of another place where one can find so many posters with a deeply pragmatical, bullshit-free attitude. A place where I can aim for that attitude myself, and can expect it from others. And it is in this very same place that someone can come and post profusely on weird occultist topics, without anyone raising an eyebrow.

Another feature which I like, is that only in the DhO do I have 100% the feeling that people aren't out to sell some product. Now, you can't believe how important that was for me: that Daniel was giving out his book for free, that he seems to avoid at all costs anything resembling adulation... I would have never gotten into meditation otherwise. That attitude is characteristic of the DhO and is a rare gem in a world of subscriptions, seminars, podcasts, etc — but as soon as you arrive at the awakened network site, you see a link to the "awake network boutique" where you can buy AN T-shirts (why not AN pins? AN toothpaste? AN erotic lubricant?). This kind of commercialism is one of the reasons why, despite recognizing their meirts, I dislike buddhist geeks, or shinzen young, for instance.

Also, I can never entirely shake the feeling that some kinds of dharma (such as those that say everything is awareness) are selling something, some dogma, where the currency is faith rather than money. That you need to accept some hierarchy of worldviews in order to belong, being of course the case that the founding members' views are at the top of said hierarchy. And while there are people who engage in this kind of dynamic on the DhO, this is rare and out of the norm. The attitude of "whatever works" is laid at its foundation and enforced by its administrators... Again, something rare and precious which should be maintained.

The DhO does have its flaws and shortcomings, there is no denying of that. Search, messages, and update capabilities all kind-of suck it seems. Maybe a platform change to joomla is doable?

Or maybe it is possible to join the awake network while ensuring that these characteristics are preserved?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/4/13 5:12 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
One of the features of the DhO is that it is quite lenient towards fringe practices and views. I like that, even if it means putting up with CCC's brand of self-help, Claudio's AF agenda, and other rants (of which I have quite a few myself). I don't know of another place where one can find so many posters with a deeply pragmatical, bullshit-free attitude. A place where I can aim for that attitude myself, and can expect it from others. And it is in this very same place that someone can come and post profusely on weird occultist topics, without anyone raising an eyebrow.

Another feature which I like, is that only in the DhO do I have 100% the feeling that people aren't out to sell some product. Now, you can't believe how important that was for me: that Daniel was giving out his book for free, that he seems to avoid at all costs anything resembling adulation... I would have never gotten into meditation otherwise. That attitude is characteristic of the DhO and is a rare gem in a world of subscriptions, seminars, podcasts, etc — but as soon as you arrive at the awakened network site, you see a link to the "awake network boutique" where you can buy AN T-shirts (why not AN pins? AN toothpaste? AN erotic lubricant?). This kind of commercialism is one of the reasons why, despite recognizing their meirts, I dislike buddhist geeks, or shinzen young, for instance.

Also, I can never entirely shake the feeling that some kinds of dharma (such as those that say everything is awareness) are selling something, some dogma, where the currency is faith rather than money. That you need to accept some hierarchy of worldviews in order to belong, being of course the case that the founding members' views are at the top of said hierarchy. And while there are people who engage in this kind of dynamic on the DhO, this is rare and out of the norm. The attitude of "whatever works" is laid at its foundation and enforced by its administrators... Again, something rare and precious which should be maintained.
I agree. Could those of who would like to donate monthly for the costs of this site as is and see how that goes for a while?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/4/13 7:46 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I've payed some attention to some of the recent threads in AN; I haven't seen the negative charateristics Bruno and Nick are talking about, it seems pretty much quality stuff, and the attitude seems to me to be quite open; however, I just looked at a few topics, and I don't really know how people in there are, nor do I know what happened to cause the schism.

I like the idea of more strong practitioners with different kind of background being on the same site

And I like to think that, if it works, maybe other sites could merge as well, creating something that will really be a big, organized and vibrating network, wich doesn't seem to me to be at the moment

Also, while nobody cares about the graphics, I'd be willing to bet some money that the mulfunctioning PM system on the DhO has throught the years limited in a significant way the excanges between practitioners, so, I think there is a point in wanting a better interface wich is beyond "Their site looks better".

Daniel... your thoughts?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/4/13 8:37 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts on this. Let me try and clarify the raison d'être of AwakeNetwork and how (and why) I see DhO fitting in.

First, as Daniel pointed out the Dharma Forum Refugee Camp was started by Chris and others during the time when dharma forum fragmentation was rampant. It was an attempt to tone down and have serious, mature, dharma discussions without drama. DFRC, like KFD, and DhO before it, was hosted on WetPaint which, as we all know, is a bit of a train wreck. As a participant in DFRC, I loved the discussions, but like other practitioners, I felt that all the schisms were counter-productive and wanted to see if I could help motivate a change. But also, as a technologist, I felt that the lock-in created by WetPaint and Liferay was simply unacceptable. We needed to own our own data, and be free to use open source frameworks that we can host wherever we saw fit based on cost and performance.

So I created AN as a possible solution, and as others have mentioned, the core of AN based on Joomla (an open source CMS), Kunena (an open source forum based on Joomla), and JomSocial (a not-quite-free social network for Joomla). These three components are the backbone of AN. Additionally, WordPress is integrated into the site so that members can publish articles in a magazine, of sorts, and soon-to-be integrated MediaWiki, for a knowledge base.

Based on the comments here, the important stuff is not so much the code behind it as the organization. So let me expand on that. From the get-go, I envisioned AN to be an umbrella "network" of dharma groups, in part to facilitate an online presence for dharma groups that don't have the technological oomph to get one going themselves, but also to allow disparate dharma groups to have discussions that could be viewed by others in the network, to cross-fertilize and educate people on the various ways in which the dharma is practiced. Far from being dogmatic and intolerant of other practices, the goal was to *foster* and *encourage* those practices.

The way in which AN achieves this is by grouping members. So being on AN is part of the story, but membership only has a few privileges and the real point is to also be members of one or more of the AN groups (of which, currently, there are very few). Being a member of a group opens up the group-specific discussions, and here is the real value of the network in my opinion. You only need to be a member of groups that you are interested in, and if you are not a member, you will not see private discussions in that group. But every group will also have public discussions, and those that appear above that line will be (a) visible to all members of AN, and (b) visible to the outside world, including Google. So using groups, and public/private threads, we are trying to ensure a decent signal-to-noise for all members, as well as address real privacy concerns (such as in practice logs which you may not want to be freely accessible).

I see DhO coming into AN as one, and possible several, groups, depending on what everyone wants. In my opinion, it makes sense to have a couple of groups for the really high-level discussion forks: MCTB-influenced practice, AF, magick/shamanic/power stuff. This allows individuals to decide what segment of the discussions are relevant to them, and filter out the rest. But we can fine tune that if we decide to pull the trigger on this.

Bruno mentioned the AN Boutique, and that stung a bit. Right now, AN runs out of my, and Chris' pocket, with some contributions from members because, even with open source software, hosting is not free. Daniel is very gracious to pay for DhO out of his pocket, and I hope that everyone is truly appreciative of that gift. That said, the Boutique is not a for-profit thing and, indeed, there is not even a cut taken on the items to help with the hosting. We had shirts made up for the BG conference to wear personally, and others that did not go to the conference wanted the shirts too. And since, in CafePress it is just as easy to splash the design on 40 products as 1, the Boutique was born. Lubricant? Really???

Finally (on an unintentionally long-winded post), I should mention the social network. This is currently under-utilized (IMO) but there is a Facebook-like section of the site for managing friendships, sending messages, sharing stuff. Some (like me) are uncomfortable sharing dharma stuff on Facebook proper, and I envisioned this part of AN as being a dharma-specific Facebook, not dissimilar to what Vince is now doing with Google+ and the BG Community. I feel this has a lot of potential for cleaning up some discussions that are better served as simply "status updates" or shares.

I hope this helps, and please ask if there is something that needs more detail.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 9:11 AM as a reply to Tom O..
Yeah, what Tom just said, except that DFRC was never on Wetpaint - it was on another free system called LeFora, and that was probably just as bad ;-)

I, for one, would welcome everyone here, regardless of their practice leanings, to Awakenetwork. I think together we are much better as the availability of interesting conversation is much larger. What Tom created with AN is a way to have many individual groups that are housed under the AN umbrella while each group can maintain a separate identity and membership list and can have public and/or private conversations as their members see fit. All the while we can hold cross-group memberships so that we can all benefit from each other's ideas and comments. Nothing about how the DhO message boards are managed or maintained needs to change.

Remember, Tom and I approached Daniel with this idea, as we have also approached Kenneth Folk. We want this to happen. All we need to do is figure out the tactical aspects. Sounds like most of us accept the strategy as a valid one.

- Chris

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 9:19 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
One of the features of the DhO is that it is quite lenient towards fringe practices and views. I like that, even if it means putting up with CCC's brand of self-help, Claudio's AF agenda, and other rants (of which I have quite a few myself). I don't know of another place where one can find so many posters with a deeply pragmatical, bullshit-free attitude. A place where I can aim for that attitude myself, and can expect it from others. And it is in this very same place that someone can come and post profusely on weird occultist topics, without anyone raising an eyebrow.


Ditto. What I really appreciate about DhO - and what needs to be preserved at all costs - is the culture. It's the reason I use my limited time and energy to read and post here and not anywhere else. I see posts and discussions of questionable worth here all the time, but I prefer the free-wheeling, anarchic nature of things here to other more tightly moderated or clique-ish forums.

That being said, the platform here blows. Something needs to be done about the platform.

I don't have anything to say besides what Bruno already said. I'll just quote the parts I agreed strongly with:

Also, I can never entirely shake the feeling that some kinds of dharma (such as those that say everything is awareness) are selling something, some dogma, where the currency is faith rather than money. That you need to accept some hierarchy of worldviews in order to belong, being of course the case that the founding members' views are at the top of said hierarchy. And while there are people who engage in this kind of dynamic on the DhO, this is rare and out of the norm. The attitude of "whatever works" is laid at its foundation and enforced by its administrators... Again, something rare and precious which should be maintained.


Or maybe it is possible to join the awake network while ensuring that these characteristics are preserved?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 9:28 AM as a reply to Tom O..
There are many technological benefits in AN. My main concern is the potential loss of critical-mass if the audience-posters is split in many subforums, and/or the most interesting debates are kept private. I have seen the slow death of a "stream-entry members only" equivalent of a big DhO-like martial forum.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 9:34 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
My view on this essentially matches Bruno's, point for point. Especially this part here:
Bruno Loff:
Also, I can never entirely shake the feeling that some kinds of dharma (such as those that say everything is awareness) are selling something, some dogma, where the currency is faith rather than money. That you need to accept some hierarchy of worldviews in order to belong, being of course the case that the founding members' views are at the top of said hierarchy. And while there are people who engage in this kind of dynamic on the DhO, this is rare and out of the norm. The attitude of "whatever works" is laid at its foundation and enforced by its administrators... Again, something rare and precious which should be maintained.

I would like to preserve the atmosphere of the DhO if possible, and I'm not sure whether that would happen under the AwakeNetwork system described here. Pablo also brought up a good point about critical mass.

That being said, the culture is the people, so if we have all the same people here posting in one huge public forum with all-public subcategories (much like the DhO is now) then it seems there's a good chance the culture will be preserved.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 9:42 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Just to be clear, a "merger" would not create one huge public forum unless we all agree that's what we want to do, but that's not how we envision this working at all. This would, at Daniel's and your discretion, create a wholly separate DhO under the AN system. You would have your own membership, your own forum to manage as you see fit, and so on. DFRC is that way on AN now, it's just that it's the only forum on AN so folks think it's all there is to AN when that's not the case.

You could, if we can pull this off technically, move DhO lock, stock and barrel over to AN and never see any other message boards on AN, if you so choose.

Does that help?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 10:37 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Just to be clear, a "merger" would not create one huge public forum unless we all agree that's what we want to do, but that's not how we envision this working at all. This would, at Daniel's and your discretion, create a wholly separate DhO under the AN system. You would have your own membership, your own forum to manage as you see fit, and so on. DFRC is that way on AN now, it's just that it's the only forum on AN so folks think it's all there is to AN when that's not the case.

You could, if we can pull this off technically, move DhO lock, stock and barrel over to AN and never see any other message boards on AN, if you so choose.

Does that help?

Thanks for the clarification. Yea I was wondering about exactly that - whether we could move DhO over lock, stock and barrel as you said, without changing how posts are made here. By one huge public forum I meant that just the DhO section would be all-public, as it is now - again in an effort to preserve it how it is. If that's all it's going to be, plus some easy links to other message boards, then it might be worth it for the technological upgrade and cheaper hosting and also greater exposure I suppose.

So, how would the separation of forums actually play out? If I look at the Board Categories page then it seems the Dharma Refugees is functionally equivalent to a subcategory. So would the DhO be another subcategory, wherein we'd then have all of our subcategories?

If I go to AN's Recent Discussions page then it looks like it has the most recent topics of the entire AN. There's some stuff from Dharma Refugees and some stuff from the general forum and it's hard to tell which is which. Is there any way to get a 'recent posts' page from just one of the forums? If I click on the Dharma Refugees forum topic then I see recent posts from that category, but it doesn't include recent posts from all of those subcategories, etc. For example, it doesn't have anything from the General Dharma Discussions subcategory.

I guess what I'm asking is, though I don't necessarily want to do this, how would I be able to use DhO on the AN without seeing any other message boards? The way most people use this site is by using the Recent Posts page, yet it seems if I do that I'd be seeing messages from the entire AN, not just from the DhO.

EDIT: I guess the above are the sorts of concerns you mean when you said "if we can pull this off technically"? I'd be for it depending on what the technical solution would actually end up looking like.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 11:23 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
So would the DhO be another subcategory, wherein we'd then have all of our subcategories?


Yes, that's how I would envision this working. DhO would be completely separate from DFRC, and AN would be the umbrella under which those two separate entities would exist.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 11:35 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
So would the DhO be another subcategory, wherein we'd then have all of our subcategories?


Yes, that's how I would envision this working. DhO would be completely separate from DFRC, and AN would be the umbrella under which those two separate entities would exist.

What would be the difference between that, and, for example, the categories on the DhO? You could say the "Insight and Wisdom" category is separate from the "Concentration" category and the DhO is the umbrella, but functionally they are quite merged since most people use the Recent Posts page which lists them all in the same place anyway (same as on AN).

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 11:50 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
At first I was apprehensive when you mentioned the recent posts issue, Claudiu, because I love that feature here. But while driving around I realized that I think it would be OK even if the recent posts tab at AN showed all recent posts from all groups there. This is because 1) I will only see recent posts from groups that I am a member of, or else public posts from those gruops that I am not a member of and 2) the more the merrier; it would be nice to have one stop shopping for all the recent posts at KFD, DhO and DFRC, don't you think? Wouldn't it be like the recent posts tab at DhO now, just 'bigger'?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 1:05 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
"Recent Posts" is a huge driver in getting the membership and categorization right because, like you, I live by "Recent Posts". So if DhO, for example, made all of its stuff wide open, then everyone would see it, which kind of makes the grouping moot and diminishes the experience for those that don't want to see it.

That is what I was referring to, above, about signal-to-noise: one person's signal is another person's noise, and that needs to be respected. But by elevating some content above the private line to public, we get what I think will be some useful cross-signalling.

We have a bunch of wiggle room to optimize the experience for most people, I think, as long as we have everyone's concerns out in the open.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 2:25 PM as a reply to Tom O..
Hmm, ok. So most of the group-specific posts would have to be private. If I understand it correctly, then the private posts would show up in Recent Posts for people who are members of that group, and wouldn't show up in Recent Posts for people who aren't members? So Recent Posts would, for each person, have all of the stuff they're interested in (are members of), plus the public posts from stuff they are not explicitly interested in (are not members of)? That sounds reasonable enough.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 2:43 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Yup. Actually pretty cool right?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 2:47 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Hmm, ok. So most of the group-specific posts would have to be private. If I understand it correctly, then the private posts would show up in Recent Posts for people who are members of that group, and wouldn't show up in Recent Posts for people who aren't members? So Recent Posts would, for each person, have all of the stuff they're interested in (are members of), plus the public posts from stuff they are not explicitly interested in (are not members of)? That sounds reasonable enough.


That is precisely it. Public stuff should be general interest. The impact, from the DhO perspective, would be that private stuff would not be visible to the outside world either, which is either good or bad depending on how you look at things.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 3:31 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
A couple of random thoughts.

One thing that struck me having just signed up over at AwakeNetwork is that the signup processes are very different from DhO's. With DhO the signup is all automated whereas at AwakeNetwork there is communication with an actual human being involved. How will this be handled when people come looking to sign up for the DhO AwakeNetwork group?

Currently signing up for AwakeNetwork seems to also entail an automatic addition to the DFRC group. However there doesn't seem to be any instruction for signing up for different groups on the site, which is not a problem now but would need to be addressed if the DhO forums are moved there.

Are forum moderators set per subgroup? Ie. would the DhO forum section be able to keeps its own moderators?

There doesn't currently seem to be any particular information regarding what exactly the DFRC group is in relation to AwakeNetwork. I think this would need to be made more clear if the DhO forum is moved there (and would probably help even if it isn't). Clear descriptions of each group, DFRC/DhO and why one would want to join one or more of them would be great.

Anyway, these are all probably fairly obvious points easily dealt with.

For what it's worth I think moving the DhO forum to AwakeNetwork could turn out really well. Less duplicated infrastructure and costs and hopefully some sharing between the communities. The important part would seem to be that the DhO 'spirit' with a lot of freedom in discussion topics is carried over. That's probably the number one reason that the DhO is currently the only meditation related forum that I read on a regular basis.

Simon

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 3:52 PM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:
A couple of random thoughts.

One thing that struck me having just signed up over at AwakeNetwork is that the signup processes are very different from DhO's. With DhO the signup is all automated whereas at AwakeNetwork there is communication with an actual human being involved. How will this be handled when people come looking to sign up for the DhO AwakeNetwork group?

Ah yeah, I'd prefer automated sign-up if possible.

Simon E:
Currently signing up for AwakeNetwork seems to also entail an automatic addition to the DFRC group. However there doesn't seem to be any instruction for signing up for different groups on the site, which is not a problem now but would need to be addressed if the DhO forums are moved there.

It also looks like a lot of the DFRC threads aren't private. I could view them in the recent posts without even being logged in. I guess the members of DFRC would have to adjust their behavior once they're not the only ones on the site?

Simon E:
Anyway, these are all probably fairly obvious points easily dealt with.

Another thing is, I just signed up and my password was sent to me in plain-text in an email. This is really a big security no-no. If I used a password I use regularly I'd have to change it on all the other sites I use it after this.

Simon E:
The important part would seem to be that the DhO 'spirit' with a lot of freedom in discussion topics is carried over. That's probably the number one reason that the DhO is currently the only meditation related forum that I read on a regular basis.

Same. Although this place does have its own culture, I like it more for its relative lack of culture than anything else.

Few more thoughts:
1) the "DhO and AN proposed merger" topic that Dan started is listed as having 8 replies in the recent posts page, but when I click there I only see 3 posts. Is this a miscount or are posts selectively hidden from public view?
2) the 'recent topics' page only has one page worth of recent topics... is there any way to go back? If I missed a few days or weeks on the DhO I like looking back all the way since the last thread I read and looking through them, seeing what piques my interest, etc.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 6:16 PM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
"Currently signing up for AwakeNetwork seems to also entail an automatic addition to the DFRC group."


Well, it appears that way but there are actually two actions required - one to activate your AN account and one to assign you to the DFRC group. That second action could just as well, at some future time, be to assign you to a DhO group.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/4/13 6:42 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I voiced recently the opinion that the DhO should move to a plateform like Joomla as the current setup doesn't encourage networking very well. Still, we need to take the time to figure out what we feel to be lacking and what direction we want for this community.

Even in it's current dated format, the DhO keep a pretty decent level of activity. We already have a pretty nice critical mass and we would be surprise to know the number of people that read this forum but never post on it, simply because of the high quality of the discussion we find here.

No matter what direction the DhO takes, I would like it to keep a streamlined style. Keep things at the bare minimum, not too fancy and avoid gadgets people never use. The AwakeNetwork use a beautiful layout but feel cluttered as it try to be too many things at once. There is many gadgets that are totally useless and some useful aspect of the site might end up rarely being used because they end up being redundant. They got the facebook-like "Share" section, the forum, the blogs, learn, events, Google+.... and then all the sub-sections the forum... I don't care about the stats or if so and so updated his avatar. This too much noise and things are scattered.

While the issues that created the split might no longer be of actuality, that doesn't mean the two cultures that evolved separately would be well served by sharing the same roof. The only thing I can say about the DhO culture is that it stick pretty closely to the manifesto that we find in the Home section and I like it that way. Another thing I like is that it's more a troubleshooting website than anything else. Most original posts are about a specific issue the yogi encounter, it's usually very personal and well thought. This might explain the somewhat dark ambiance there is here but we shouldn't see it as a bad thing, quite the opposite. This, combined with the fact that there is quite a few people that "have been there", make it easy for people to come here and open up freely. Once in a while, I do listen to videos of Alan Watts we relaxing music in the background but I don't feel this belong here. I think of the DhO as what a bunch of farmers would put together to share knowledge. People here are concerned about results.

If there is something I would like to see developed in a dharma forum is a system that would encourage mentoring in a more direct manner. People at stream entry can give a hand to beginners, people at second path assists stream enterers and so on, more or less. I think integrating social feature similar to facebook are bad ideas and a different format is needed. I have some ideas on my mind but we would need the appropriate plateform first before starting developing new aspects to this place.

If anyone is interested in doing a brainstorm on the direction this place could take, manifest yourself. We could start with a Google Hangout and see where our ideas converge and diverge.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/5/13 2:29 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

It also looks like a lot of the DFRC threads aren't private. I could view them in the recent posts without even being logged in. I guess the members of DFRC would have to adjust their behavior once they're not the only ones on the site?

Not all of the group/sub-forums are hidden from public view.

An interesting point would seem to be where to draw the lines as to what parts of the forums should be public vs. private. Everything public would make for a larger, combined, group. Everything private would be better for maintaining the unique atmosphere of the respective groups. Perhaps keeping all group sub-forums private and then having a couple of shared top level forums available for all groups would be a good compromise? It looks like that is the way it works today, though with only one group currently it isn't very relevant right now.

Finding the right combination of cross-polination and privacy for each respective groups forums seems to be a very important issue for a merger. Getting it right would seem to benefit both groups while getting it wrong would leave a bunch of people upset.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Few more thoughts:
1) the "DhO and AN proposed merger" topic that Dan started is listed as having 8 replies in the recent posts page, but when I click there I only see 3 posts. Is this a miscount or are posts selectively hidden from public view?


Yeah i noticed that to, after logging in all the posts are visible so it's not a miscount. Perhaps individual privacy settings are coming into play?

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

2) the 'recent topics' page only has one page worth of recent topics... is there any way to go back? If I missed a few days or weeks on the DhO I like looking back all the way since the last thread I read and looking through them, seeing what piques my interest, etc.


Seconded.

Simon

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 4:30 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I'm normally not a fan of IT-platform changes as long as it works reasonably well. They tend to be messy.

But I think this "merger" is a good idea, since AWN is tested, and both forums can keep their "personalities" intact.

Myself, I think I would contribute more on DhO if more forums were found in one place.
And then there is the possibility of importing the crashed KFDh-forum into ist own group?...

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 7:25 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:

An interesting point would seem to be where to draw the lines as to what parts of the forums should be public vs. private. Everything public would make for a larger, combined, group. Everything private would be better for maintaining the unique atmosphere of the respective groups. Perhaps keeping all group sub-forums private and then having a couple of shared top level forums available for all groups would be a good compromise? It looks like that is the way it works today, though with only one group currently it isn't very relevant right now.

Finding the right combination of cross-polination and privacy for each respective groups forums seems to be a very important issue for a merger. Getting it right would seem to benefit both groups while getting it wrong would leave a bunch of people upset.


And again, the other issue is outside-world visibility. Right now, on AN we try and have conversations that are more generally of interest on the "public" side, so that the outside world (like Google) knows about us. That has caused new users to pop up. A running joke is that if we want to bump up our hits, simply mention that-punk-rock-zen-guy...works every time.

Simon E:

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

2) the 'recent topics' page only has one page worth of recent topics... is there any way to go back? If I missed a few days or weeks on the DhO I like looking back all the way since the last thread I read and looking through them, seeing what piques my interest, etc.


Seconded.


The "Recent Topics" is just that...recent. By default the time span is 1 week, but you can adjust it to your personal preference. That said, you can always view all the topics by clicking on "All Topics". This is sorted by time, but goes back to the beginning.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 8:31 AM as a reply to Tom O..
Tom, the strange case of the dissappearing posts on the publicly viewed version of Dan's thread at DFRC-- is this in fact due to individual privacy settings?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 8:35 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:

An interesting point would seem to be where to draw the lines as to what parts of the forums should be public vs. private. Everything public would make for a larger, combined, group. Everything private would be better for maintaining the unique atmosphere of the respective groups. Perhaps keeping all group sub-forums private and then having a couple of shared top level forums available for all groups would be a good compromise? It looks like that is the way it works today, though with only one group currently it isn't very relevant right now.



Well, I think how it works now would continue to work really well with multiple groups at AN. That is, individual posters, when starting a thread, decide whether it will be publicly viewable or only viewable by members. So going to the recent topics tab, an AN member will see all the public recent posts of all groups (DFRC, DhO, KFD...) and also all of the private posts of the groups they belong to. It will be self-organizing. (Maybe that is what you are saying, just in different words.)

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 9:00 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
Simon E:

An interesting point would seem to be where to draw the lines as to what parts of the forums should be public vs. private. Everything public would make for a larger, combined, group. Everything private would be better for maintaining the unique atmosphere of the respective groups. Perhaps keeping all group sub-forums private and then having a couple of shared top level forums available for all groups would be a good compromise? It looks like that is the way it works today, though with only one group currently it isn't very relevant right now.



Well, I think how it works now would continue to work really well with multiple groups at AN. That is, individual posters, when starting a thread, decide whether it will be publicly viewable or only viewable by members. So going to the recent topics tab, an AN member will see all the public recent posts of all groups (DFRC, DhO, KFD...) and also all of the private posts of the groups they belong to. It will be self-organizing. (Maybe that is what you are saying, just in different words.)


Agreed.

Since pretty much all our stuff is public, though, and presumably would remain public, AN would be DhO plus whatever posts DFRC made public. Those would be integrated together into the most recent topics view, if I understand correctly. So it would in at least that limited sense be a merger of the two communities. Since our public traffic is probably greater than what would be contributed publicly by DFRC, the effect on us might be less than what it is on DFRC. At least of course until other communities joined.

It seems like DhO would be able to maintain its culture and identity as a hardcore dharma community under this arrangement, so I don't really have a problem with it.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 9:35 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
. Jake .:
Simon E:

An interesting point would seem to be where to draw the lines as to what parts of the forums should be public vs. private. Everything public would make for a larger, combined, group. Everything private would be better for maintaining the unique atmosphere of the respective groups. Perhaps keeping all group sub-forums private and then having a couple of shared top level forums available for all groups would be a good compromise? It looks like that is the way it works today, though with only one group currently it isn't very relevant right now.



Well, I think how it works now would continue to work really well with multiple groups at AN. That is, individual posters, when starting a thread, decide whether it will be publicly viewable or only viewable by members. So going to the recent topics tab, an AN member will see all the public recent posts of all groups (DFRC, DhO, KFD...) and also all of the private posts of the groups they belong to. It will be self-organizing. (Maybe that is what you are saying, just in different words.)


Agreed.

Since pretty much all our stuff is public, though, and presumably would remain public, AN would be DhO plus whatever posts DFRC made public. Those would be integrated together into the most recent topics view, if I understand correctly. So it would in at least that limited sense be a merger of the two communities. Since our public traffic is probably greater than what would be contributed publicly by DFRC, the effect on us might be less than what it is on DFRC. At least of course until other communities joined.

It seems like DhO would be able to maintain its culture and identity as a hardcore dharma community under this arrangement, so I don't really have a problem with it.


Since it seems clear that the idea is that we wouldn't lose the culture that makes the DhO 'the DhO', I think then it best to consider whether the DFRC members would be able to cope with the influx of DhO participants of such a cultural upbringing poking their heads into their their currently quite small and intimate setting. The nosy neighbours will be there just a couple of clicks away now. And because there is the umbrella term of 'awakenetwork' above us both, there may be more intention and desire to jump in and participate. Are their members ok with having such neighbours setting up shop in such close proximity and expressing practices and views that may trigger feelings of discomfort? Their current dynamic may be affected. You won't exactly be refugees anymore with such neighbours.

*salud*

:-)

Nick

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 10:02 AM as a reply to Simon T..
I'd like this, Simon:

If anyone is interested in doing a brainstorm on the direction this place could take, manifest yourself. We could start with a Google Hangout and see where our ideas converge and diverge.

It seems to me that this issues are:
1) Cost - and I think many of us have said we'd donate if it helped.

2) platform - I'm fine with DhOs. I use google to connect with people

3) Uniqueness v. Umbrella: I agree with Fitter Stroke's comment in that I deliberately choose to come to this site for a few reasons. And I agree with Bruno that DhO is an excellent commercial-free, seminar-free, shop-free site filling a great niche in an ocean of sales-dharma. And I agree with "Every3rdthought" on the AN network's thread about the merger: "I really don't understand why we have a drive toward being bigger". I'd prefer to have my posts be private there as I chose to post on the DhO and even its kind of sickly 70s wood-paneling effect is part of that emoticon

4) I think Tarin Greco surveyed DhO users a couple years ago to see which tab was the most popular and I think it was the "Recent Posts" tab -- if that's so, then that points to a dominant value DhO users share: that we most value not categories and traditional frames but individuals posting and a diversity of thought.

5) I am concerned that maybe Daniel is tired of running the place and if that's so I don't want to stand in the way of a merger that would help what are maybe his current needs.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 10:29 AM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
katy steger:


1) Uniqueness v. Umbrella: I agree with Fitter Stroke's comment in that I deliberately choose to come to this site for a few reasons. And I agree with Bruno that DhO is an excellent commercial-free, seminar-free, shop-free site filling a great niche in an ocean of sales-dharma. And I agree with "Every3rdthought" on the AN network's thread about the merger: "I really don't understand why we have a drive toward being bigger". I'd prefer to have my posts be private there as I chose to post on the DhO and even its kind of sickly 70s wood-paneling effect is part of that emoticon

2) I think Tarin Greco surveyed DhO users a couple years ago to see which tab was the most popular and I think it was the "Recent Posts" tab -- if that's so, then that points to a dominant value DhO users share: that we most value not categories and traditional frames but individuals posting and a diversity of thought.



1) DFRC will still be members only, with some public posts, just as it is now, depending on how a given poster chooses to start a thread (public or private). . DhO can be set up just like it is now. Parenthetically, I've noticed that sometimes when I'm reading DhO but not logged in there are some threads that are locked. So there must be some way to make DhO threads members-only currently. So posts at DFRC will still be able to be private.

2) I think that most folks at DFRC also use the recent posts tab generally, there. I think there is already a great diversity of views expressed at DFRC, there's just much more civilized posting culture on the whole (no flame wars, tone is generally quite civil even during disagreements, etc). I don't see this changing, as it is a private group, however big it gets, it can maintain this collegial atmosphere if the moderators do their job (which I think they do well.) The moderator;s at DhO also do their job well imho, and there is a different culture of posting here which has it's pluses and minuses. Point is, there is absolutely no reason for the culture of either board to change just because of DhO migrating to AN.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 10:35 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai :


Since it seems clear that the idea is that we wouldn't lose the culture that makes the DhO 'the DhO', I think then it best to consider whether the DFRC members would be able to cope with the influx of DhO participants of such a cultural upbringing poking their heads into their their currently quite small and intimate setting. The nosy neighbours will be there just a couple of clicks away now. And because there is the umbrella term of 'awakenetwork' above us both, there may be more intention and desire to jump in and participate. Are their members ok with having such neighbours setting up shop in such close proximity and expressing practices and views that may trigger feelings of discomfort? Their current dynamic may be affected. You won't exactly be refugees anymore with such neighbours.

*salud*

:-)



lol, this is a good point. For some, it may disrupt what they love most about DFRC. However, there are a couple of ways to address these concerns. One, for the DFRC moderators to continue doing an excellent job of maintaining a certain posting culture there. Two, if this is not possible or not enough for some, a new group could be formed under the AN umbrella which leans more towards privacy and intimacy. Either or both could work.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 10:47 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
From the way people talk, you'd think that a frat house was proposing to move next door to a pair of complacent empty-nesters and start setting cars on fire in the street and throwing old t.v. sets out the window during drug and alcohol-induced riots. Or conversely, gentrifying developers will take over and clean up the neighborhood, driving out all the drunks, panhandlers, and drug dealers. emoticon Or maybe things will actually be fine. Maybe the AN people should bake a nice pie and take it over to the DhO group to welcome them to the new neighborhood. Couldn't hurt. Especially since some of us are the same people!

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9/5/13 11:03 AM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
Ahhahahahahahahaha emoticon Lol lol
Yeah, this is probably a (mild) storm in a teacup. The folks who seem to be most worried on either side also seem to have the least experience with the other group, and the longest memories dating to times that have since changed. Which is all very understandable. But that picture you just painted... priceless Laurel emoticon

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 11:18 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
TOGA

TOGA

TOGA

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 12:06 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Semper fi? Sic semper tyrannis?

Jane, you're so funny.

Jake'ums:
I think there is already a great diversity of views expressed at DFRC, there's just much more civilized posting culture on the whole (no flame wars, tone is generally quite civil even during disagreements, etc).
Actually, I like this about DhO. A lot of us arrive "just a bit testy", shall we say? I have a lot of compassion for that (wonder why...). So I truly value DhO as a place where some people come because it has a "gritty little Internet site" vibe.

My main concern though (can we rule this out?) is that Daniel may need this to happen, to unload something from his plate if he is moving on. Daniel, do you need this to move or can those of us so inspired donate to cover costs?

Thanks all. (Chris Marti, I enjoy your avatar-boogeyman toothey thing.)

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 12:08 PM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
Jane
From the way people talk, you'd think that a frat house was proposing to move next door to a pair of complacent empty-nesters and start setting cars on fire in the street and throwing old t.v. sets out the window during drug and alcohol-induced riots. Or conversely, gentrifying developers will take over and clean up the neighborhood, driving out all the drunks, panhandlers, and drug dealers. Or maybe things will actually be fine. Maybe the AN people should bake a nice pie and take it over to the DhO group to welcome them to the new neighborhood. Couldn't hurt. Especially since some of us are the same people!
(pssst: jane, I've got a deal right now on some fly dharma, the high is really good. It's called B.C. metta and is loaded with TLC... (am I a lame dealer? emoticon))

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 2:33 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Simon E:
A couple of random thoughts.

One thing that struck me having just signed up over at AwakeNetwork is that the signup processes are very different from DhO's. With DhO the signup is all automated whereas at AwakeNetwork there is communication with an actual human being involved. How will this be handled when people come looking to sign up for the DhO AwakeNetwork group?


Ah yeah, I'd prefer automated sign-up if possible.



I requested a login two(2) days ago and have just had to respond to...what I guess is a weeding out process? Perhaps this is just a hiccup. but making people answer even simple questions (who do you practice with?, where did you here about us?) via email, certainly isn't welcoming. If I wasn't aware of the people and quality of conversation taking place I would have just said don't bother with my "membership".
I have 5 emails in my inbox from AN, plus two I sent just to join. Streamline somehow, please.

Otherwise it does seem like a good platform and if DhO has autonomy, and past posts aren't lost it sounds like a great idea!

Brian.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 12:32 PM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
Jane Laurel Carrington:
From the way people talk, you'd think that a frat house was proposing to move next door to a pair of complacent empty-nesters and start setting cars on fire in the street and throwing old t.v. sets out the window during drug and alcohol-induced riots. Or conversely, gentrifying developers will take over and clean up the neighborhood, driving out all the drunks, panhandlers, and drug dealers. emoticon Or maybe things will actually be fine. Maybe the AN people should bake a nice pie and take it over to the DhO group to welcome them to the new neighborhood. Couldn't hurt. Especially since some of us are the same people!


Clinging?...Aversion?...Change?
Funny that We are getting so uptight about these things while trying to be almighty enlightened...and shit!

Brian.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 12:38 PM as a reply to Brian Eleven.
Brian:

Funny that We are getting so uptight about these things while trying to be almighty enlightened...and shit!
ha ;)

But I wouldn't say this is an uptight process. I like what Nikolai noted at the outset. There were actual causes for the initial separations and that's not bad. It's nice to evaluate what a merger means. It's nice to review/see what values we are feeling are in the DhO as is.

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9/5/13 12:44 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Katy,
True enough, it just made me laugh that we work so hard to drop clinging and accept change. But when something pretty minor in our lives may change people worry so much. (I'm in no way exempt!)

Brian

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9/5/13 12:48 PM as a reply to Brian Eleven.
Yes, indeed. I'm laughing out loud from your post.

Also, I think the second "" is missing from your nested quote with your excerpt of Claudiu's words (I'm including this here in case the DhO chat did not rely my message! Tech platform issue... emoticon )

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 12:57 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
I do think a merger could work (as much as staying as is).

So my personal concerns:
1) if Daniel needs this to happen, I'd like to facilitate it in gratitude for the immense gift he has given my actual life by creating this forum where you all have worked with me and I with you and us together.

2) I like that people can vent strongly here, that this is not a tidy area, off-putting the Great Testy Ones with any refinery, that people can come here starting/staying nearly from any place, that mods (thank you Nikolai and Claudiu) are pretty hands off. Again, A D R's recent "Fuck off" thread is case and point. Who hasn't felt that???

But, really, I like that the call to dharma generally starts in the bottom of the outhouse of the mind-- not pretty-- and that people need to shed some major stank as part of the process. A too-clean and polite and filtered cite can be a put-off/unwelcoming to those of us who start at the bottom of the outhouse, so to speak. A simile could be that one in filthy clothes doesn't necessarily want to go to a sit-down, table-cloth restaurant: one wants the gnarly food truck at first and the grease...a place that looks approachable. Make sense?

So I think DhO offers both that approachability and those glorious, tidy heights...emoticon

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 1:17 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Katy, I think those are great points. I too value the fact that DhO is a bit wild west, messy, and open to rants. I also like that DFRC has a different tone ;)

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 2:30 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
+1 for the wild west.

Better for Daniels book / following / marketing etc if he stays apart from such things I reckon.

Besides, i just went to sign up there and man, what's with the 20 sodding questions just to register on a damn forum?

You know, a copy of PHPBB or Vbulletin would be just as easy to implement here. Just stick all this stuff in a folder /oldforum and keep it available and start anew with something more robust and useful. No upgrade hassles!

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 2:42 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Dear Katie,

Thanks for your concern and thoughts. While the recent increase in costs are somewhat annoying (now $179/mo for better servers, and the recent $2000 if Manish can upgrade us to 6.1...), they are basically a slight blip on the much larger radar screen, and I can easily continue to afford them, and much prefer that the decisions regarding the DhO be made based on factors more important to the community, the function of the place, the capabilities to bring people together to discuss practice, and the like.

I very much want to preserve the community feel and culture independent of the platform, but if the platform can improve the experience and the connections and the easy flow of good dharma, then that is what I would want to get out of it.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 2:52 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Bagpuss The Gnome:
+1 for the wild west.

Better for Daniels book / following / marketing etc if he stays apart from such things I reckon.

Besides, i just went to sign up there and man, what's with the 20 sodding questions just to register on a damn forum?

Yea I am somewhat put off by the registration process - it gives it a walled garden feel - plus the 'donate' and 'shop now' buttons. I understand these things have costs - but I prefer the complete lack of any mention of it the way the DhO is now if that's possible, and luckily Dan is indeed willing to support it.

I also appreciate that everything here is public and google-searchable, which wouldn't be possible if we merge[1]. People on the DFRC thread cite their appreciation of the intimacy of the site, which would be ruined if all of us keep posting as much as we do in the same way in public threads. So we'd have to have most of the stuff in private threads so the DFRC people could ignore those posts by not being in the group.

[1] I also get that Chris said it's not a merger, but if the net result is that people would see threads from both forums intermingled by default, which they would by using Recent Posts, then it would look, feel, and functionally act like a merger.

If it were possible to have two landing pages, say "awakenetwork.org/forums/DFRC" and "awakenetwork.org/forums/DhO", where the Recent Posts of each one would only show the posts for that forum, and people would have to put extra effort to check out the other site - as opposed to it being a default - then that seems like something more workable to the benefit of both DFRC and DhO, who each want to preserve their own cultures.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 3:06 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Dear Katie,

Thanks for your concern and thoughts. While the recent increase in costs are somewhat annoying (now $179/mo for better servers, and the recent $2000 if Manish can upgrade us to 6.1...), they are basically a slight blip on the much larger radar screen, and I can easily continue to afford them, and much prefer that the decisions regarding the DhO be made based on factors more important to the community, the function of the place, the capabilities to bring people together to discuss practice, and the like.

I very much want to preserve the community feel and culture independent of the platform, but if the platform can improve the experience and the connections and the easy flow of good dharma, then that is what I would want to get out of it.


I think we should consider another plateform before considering upgrading to 6.1. Here is a service to convert from Liferay to Joomla (http://gconverter.com/liferay-to-joomla/) that would cost less than 400$. We could start with a theme pretty similar to the one we have and overtime improve the website in the direction the users want it to go. If someday we want to merge with AN, we will already be using the same plateform.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 3:16 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
plus the 'donate' and 'shop now' buttons. I understand these things have costs - but I prefer the complete lack of any mention of it the way the DhO is now if that's possible, and luckily Dan is indeed willing to support it.


I don't really understand the aversion to donate buttons expressed in this thread. Where is the money for hosting expenses supposed to come from if it is not solicited from the users? Expecting the site owner to support a monthly cost for a community forum with no way to help offset the costs doesn't seem fair to me.

Simon

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 3:25 PM as a reply to Simon T..
The deal with Manish is already agreed on, though I haven't heard from him in a while. He was confident that he could upgrade the thing, but then others have been before also and none of it worked out. I think he appreciated the challenge, which means he has guts, at least.

I posted it to the Liferay forum this way: basically, if someone can succeed where numerous others have failed, they get $2000. If he fails, as did all the others, then the deal is off and we stay on 5.2.2 for the very short term, at least. It may be that for reasons that nobody can figure out, there is simply no way to upgrade to 6.1 at reasonable cost. If so, then that is just the strange quirks of the thing. I will try to get in touch with him again and figure out how progress is going.

5.2.2 is a known, if clearly imperfect, entity, and clearly works well enough to make this the largest and oldest of the pragmatic dharma fora. Regardless, the deal with Manish is not part of this overall decision, necessarily. I was hoping to be on 6.1 before any final decision about moving was made, particularly as it might be ok and easier to upgrade going forward, and I could really check out that improved platform, but time will tell if we ever actually get that opportunity to see it happen, and ultimately Joomla may be a better choice.

I will look into the converter: does it do all users, permissions, roles, passwords, threads, links, and also create permalinks, meaning that it copies all the old links and creates alternates based on the originals, such that every thread that references another thread will work, and all external links to the DhO, of which there are many, all still work, and that the wiki is ported over with all external and internal links intact, and the like? That would be a tall order for $400, but impressive if it can do it.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 3:27 PM as a reply to Simon T..
Hi (other) Simon,

Simon T.:
I think we should consider another plateform before considering upgrading to 6.1. Here is a service to convert from Liferay to Joomla (http://gconverter.com/liferay-to-joomla/) that would cost less than 400$. We could start with a theme pretty similar to the one we have and overtime improve the website in the direction the users want it to go. If someday we want to merge with AN, we will already be using the same plateform.


I think that one of the positive aspects of a migration to AwakeNetwork would be that it's an existing proven platform with an existing technical 'staff' that are already taking care of it. Being in the position Daniel is currently in with the DhO where he is having to hire people to help with upgrades etc. seems kind of crappy to me. Perhaps there would be more people willing to help with a more mainstream solution like Joomla, but ideally there should be a person with technical know-how who manages the forum platform, deals with upgrades etc. Having a new person (volunteer or paid) digging into the platform every time it's time for some technical upgrades is not exactly ideal.

Simon (E)

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 3:31 PM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
plus the 'donate' and 'shop now' buttons. I understand these things have costs - but I prefer the complete lack of any mention of it the way the DhO is now if that's possible, and luckily Dan is indeed willing to support it.


I don't really understand the aversion to donate buttons expressed in this thread. Where is the money for hosting expenses supposed to come from if it is not solicited from the users? Expecting the site owner to support a monthly cost for a community forum with no way to help offset the costs doesn't seem fair to me.

It's a matter of preference. If it's possible, I prefer to not have donate buttons. If it's not possible then we will have donate buttons. But it doesn't seem unfair to take Dan at his word =). It is of course much appreciated - thanks Dan!

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 3:42 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:


I also appreciate that everything here is public and google-searchable, which wouldn't be possible if we merge[1]. People on the DFRC thread cite their appreciation of the intimacy of the site, which would be ruined if all of us keep posting as much as we do in the same way in public threads. So we'd have to have most of the stuff in private threads so the DFRC people could ignore those posts by not being in the group.


Claudiu, why wouldn't it be google searchable? All public posts on DFRC are google searchable. If (nearly) all DhO posts were made public to preserve that aspect of this place, than so would they.

Good point about the recent posts tab being swamped with all the public DhO posts which might indeed annoy some members of DFRC. But practically speaking I'm not sure how big of a deal that would really be.

Tom, want to chime in on the technical feasability of a customizable 'recent posts' tab where each member could select the groups within AN they want to see public posts from? If that is a big deal t some folks?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 3:46 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:


I also appreciate that everything here is public and google-searchable, which wouldn't be possible if we merge[1]. People on the DFRC thread cite their appreciation of the intimacy of the site, which would be ruined if all of us keep posting as much as we do in the same way in public threads. So we'd have to have most of the stuff in private threads so the DFRC people could ignore those posts by not being in the group.


Claudiu, why wouldn't it be google searchable? All public posts on DFRC are google searchable. If (nearly) all DhO posts were made public to preserve that aspect of this place, than so would they.

Good point about the recent posts tab being swamped with all the public DhO posts which might indeed annoy some members of DFRC. But practically speaking I'm not sure how big of a deal that would really be.

That's all I meant - it wouldn't be google-searchable if we had to make most of our posts private. I much prefer totally open access vs. having to register & answer a few questions to be able to see the site - though from what I understand we could have a different registration process that wouldn't require human approval?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 3:50 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Ah ok I getcha now. I have no idea about the technical aspects beyond my own experience of them as member of both sites. Hopefully Tom will chime in with some answers to the technical questions.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 4:16 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
It's a matter of preference. If it's possible, I prefer to not have donate buttons. If it's not possible then we will have donate buttons. But it doesn't seem unfair to take Dan at his word =). It is of course much appreciated - thanks Dan!
Agree and if at some point DhO needed/switched to donations I think we could just let it be known word of mouth; but, like probably most everyone, I'd go with what the Head Scut-Monkey wants.

Claudiu and other tech people: thanks for bringing your skills to this consideration, too.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 5:13 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Umm I don't get the aversion to having donate buttons? It's nice that Daniel doesn't mind paying for DhO-- it's great that his income affords him that ability-- but I'm not getting this. It seems strange to take for granted the generosity of a benefactor on the one hand ("well, he's happy to pay for it, and why can't that stay the same?") and resist, on the other, an efficient and obvious means of self-organizing community support as somehow crass? I'm seriously just. not. getting. this. lol ;)

Like the shirts... I mean, I post on DFRC about as often as I do here. I see that screen, but never even noticed the shirts. Had I noticed I would have presumed, knowing what I do about Chris and Tom, that it was a way to recoup some of the costs of running the place, like the donate button which I've seen but confess I've never used. (Think I'll remedy that though).

Anyhow, guess I'm just pointing out, these suspicious or negative qualities don't inhere in things like 'donate buttons' or 't-shirts' but rather originate in our own interpretation of them, backed by whatever assumptions ideologies and past experiences we bring to that interpretation. And most of us get that-- that's a big insight in whatever practices we all use, isn't it?-- so what's up with the resistance to and Big Suspicious Interpretations of these little things? Just asking. It's quite possible I'm missing something hugely significant.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 5:19 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
Whoa, whoa, whoa, kimosabe!

It seems strange to take for granted the generosity of a benefactor on the one hand ("well, he's happy to pay for it, and why can't that stay the same?") and resist, on the other, an efficient and obvious means of self-organizing community support as somehow crass? I'm seriously just. not. getting. this. lol ;)
Who said that, Jake (besides you, here)?

Anyway, several off us are happy to donate and we're just appreciating that when a person gets to this site they can just dig in, no sales, no cleva' shirts/mugs/ just the big bog of one's mind, the forerunner of all actions...

Again, if el scut-mico wants a donate button some day, I'd say "Yea".

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 6:28 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
katy steger:
Whoa, whoa, whoa, kimosabe!

It seems strange to take for granted the generosity of a benefactor on the one hand ("well, he's happy to pay for it, and why can't that stay the same?") and resist, on the other, an efficient and obvious means of self-organizing community support as somehow crass? I'm seriously just. not. getting. this. lol ;)
Who said that, Jake (besides you, here)?

Anyway, several off us are happy to donate and we're just appreciating that when a person gets to this site they can just dig in, no sales, no cleva' shirts/mugs/ just the big bog of one's mind, the forerunner of all actions...

Again, if el scut-mico wants a donate button some day, I'd say "Yea".


An alternative to a donation button is a donation drive. We do a short donation drive until we have enough to pay the rent for the year and we forget about it for the rest of the year. Wikipedia works that way. They have a target and once the target is meet, the banner disappear. There is no donation button to be found anywhere on the site. So that way, even the people that hate donation button give to make it disappear fast! emoticon

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
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9/5/13 6:29 PM as a reply to Simon T..
Simon T.:
An alternative to a donation button is a donation drive. We do a short donation drive until we have enough to pay the rent for the year and we forget about it for the rest of the year. Wikipedia works that way. They have a target and once the target is meet, the banner disappear. There is no donation button to be found anywhere on the site. So that way, even the people that hate donation button give to make it disappear fast! emoticon

That is something I'd support way more than a permanent donate button. It's a matter of aesthetics.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/5/13 9:50 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Can we archive the old DhO posts ? In an easily accessible way.

There is a wealth of information on these forums.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/5/13 9:52 PM as a reply to (D Z) Dhru Val.
I am only moving if we can keep all the old threads and have permalinks to them so that other sites (such as KFD, etc.) that reference them won't have broken links.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 3:09 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Hi Daniel,

Daniel M. Ingram:
I am only moving if we can keep all the old threads and have permalinks to them so that other sites (such as KFD, etc.) that reference them won't have broken links.


So in the event of a move the plan is to migrate all existing threads to the new platform? That sounds like a bit of an undertaking, especially if you also want to preserve markup like the quoting syntax used on DhO.

It might be worth noting that if an import of the existing threads is done a mapping would need to be kept of the old to the new thread id's, and that's something that could only be done at the time of the import. If that is done it wouldn't be terrible difficult to setup a separate web app that exists solely to redirect old forum urls under www.dharmaoverground.org to the new thread structure. This would also require that the old imported threads live in (a) non-private (sub)-forum(s) on the AwakeNetwork forum.

If a migration is to be done I could probably help out with for example redirect solutions if any help is required and as time allows.

Anyway, just some random thoughts,
Simon

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 3:28 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
There apparently is a bunch of people on the DhO with web programming skills. I have some such skills, and would not mind contributing some time to get a new platform up and running.

But it would be stupid to do it at the same time as Manish is actively engaged in doing it. Maybe Dan can email him to see if he's still on top of things, and to see how long it will take.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 4:42 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
There apparently is a bunch of people on the DhO with web programming skills. I have some such skills, and would not mind contributing some time to get a new platform up and running.


Yepp, though I would personally prefer a switch to the existing AwakeNetwork platform rather than something brand new and separate for reasons already stated in this thread. But that's just my personal preference of course, I'd help out either way if there was a need for it.

Bruno Loff:
But it would be stupid to do it at the same time as Manish is actively engaged in doing it. Maybe Dan can email him to see if he's still on top of things, and to see how long it will take.


Yepp, any decisions and coordination would have to come from Daniel - but now we know there are people willing to help if necessary.

Simon

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 8:31 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Chiming in on a number of issues recently raised.

First, regarding "Recent Posts", I think I have mentioned already that that feature simply needs to work. Period. And that will definitely be a technical challenge to any contemplated migration effort if there is the simultaneous desire to have full control over the public/private split, which also just needs to work. I understand the issues, and the intent on all sides, and merely need to figure out a way to get it elegantly done. The wrinkle introduced by DhO, clearly, is the desire to keep most discussions public. In my conceptual imaginings for AN, I did not think that through enough.

Regarding old posts, as Daniel said, this migration cannot happen if the data cannot be preserved. We have done one such migration of data from the old DFRC site, and have the old KFD stuff partially done. This is "just work". And of course, part of that work is the preservation of internal links to other threads, which can be done on import because I maintain all the references. More challenging is the redirect of links to threads from the outside world, which requires me to keep a permanent record of post cross-references. Not a monumental effort, just a pain in the ass.

And finally, regarding donations, t-shirts, mugs, lubricant, and baby jumpers. AN is partially funded by its members, and mostly funded by Chris and myself. So in a sense, it is in a perpetual "donation drive" mode. If there was enough contributed to keep it going for a year, then I may consider taking the donation button down. Obviously if I had a benefactor willing to foot the bills entirely, then I would not ask for help at all. But there is zero profit motive. And the various tchotchke for sale are for the amusement of the members. As I have said before, there is no portion of proceeds going into the fund keeping AN alive.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 8:47 AM as a reply to Brian Eleven.
Brian Eleven:

I requested a login two(2) days ago and have just had to respond to...what I guess is a weeding out process? Perhaps this is just a hiccup. but making people answer even simple questions (who do you practice with?, where did you here about us?) via email, certainly isn't welcoming. If I wasn't aware of the people and quality of conversation taking place I would have just said don't bother with my "membership".
I have 5 emails in my inbox from AN, plus two I sent just to join. Streamline somehow, please.

Brian.


Sorry, but I have to bite on this one. Your registration happened on the 3rd at 7:21 PM. I responded with an email to you the next morning at 7:32 AM (12h later), and that was only because I had not seen Chris respond sooner, and that is because he is currently having some mail server issues. Your did not reply to that email until the 5th, at 1:16 PM (30h later), and you were approved 24 minutes after that. I think it only fair to point out that the "two(2) days" were mostly at your end.

I don't mind criticism when it is deserved, but your wording of that was kind of misleading.

And whoever pointed out the password-in-email issue, thanks for that. I was not aware of it and a security upgrade to Joomla has fixed that.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 9:37 AM as a reply to Tom O..
Tom O.:
And finally, regarding donations, t-shirts, mugs, lubricant, and baby jumpers. AN is partially funded by its members, and mostly funded by Chris and myself. So in a sense, it is in a perpetual "donation drive" mode. If there was enough contributed to keep it going for a year, then I may consider taking the donation button down. Obviously if I had a benefactor willing to foot the bills entirely, then I would not ask for help at all. But there is zero profit motive. And the various tchotchke for sale are for the amusement of the members. As I have said before, there is no portion of proceeds going into the fund keeping AN alive.

Ok, thanks - good to know!

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 11:14 AM as a reply to Tom O..
Tom O.:
Brian Eleven:

I requested a login two(2) days ago and have just had to respond to...what I guess is a weeding out process? Perhaps this is just a hiccup. but making people answer even simple questions (who do you practice with?, where did you here about us?) via email, certainly isn't welcoming. If I wasn't aware of the people and quality of conversation taking place I would have just said don't bother with my "membership".
I have 5 emails in my inbox from AN, plus two I sent just to join. Streamline somehow, please.

Brian.


Sorry, but I have to bite on this one. Your registration happened on the 3rd at 7:21 PM. I responded with an email to you the next morning at 7:32 AM (12h later), and that was only because I had not seen Chris respond sooner, and that is because he is currently having some mail server issues. Your did not reply to that email until the 5th, at 1:16 PM (30h later), and you were approved 24 minutes after that. I think it only fair to point out that the "two(2) days" were mostly at your end.

I don't mind criticism when it is deserved, but your wording of that was kind of misleading.

And whoever pointed out the password-in-email issue, thanks for that. I was not aware of it and a security upgrade to Joomla has fixed that.


I still don't see the point of having an approval process. When people sign-in, it's usually because they have been a lurker for a while and then feel the need of posting something at that very moment. Some people on the spiritual path find themselves in a state of crisis at some point and will suddently feel the need of express in it and they will be at that moment in a mindset where they will open freely and it will be a huge relief for them. Making them feel that they are under evaluation and have to wait only create an ambiance of mistrust. Also, when I signed-in, I was suggested to provide more details about myself. I don't think this is something appropriate to ask for a network that is supposed to be an umbrella for many networks as some people prefer to remains quiet about themselves and don't want to feel that kind of pressure to open up. If a specific Sangha wants to ask such things of its member, that's fine, but the AN as a whole should have any approval process, the same way I don't need an approval to create a Google account but each Google+ communities will have their own approval process, if any.

If trolling or spamming become a huge issue in the future, and that the captcha doesn't make the job, then you could put the approval process back. But in the current state of affair, I believe that it will be more time consuming to deal with all those approval than to clean up and ban any troll. Their might also have feature in your forum system that limit the number of post a new user can post in a short amount or time, or something like that.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 11:43 AM as a reply to Simon T..
Making them feel that they are under evaluation and have to wait only create an ambiance of mistrust. Also, when I signed-in, I was suggested to provide more details about myself. I don't think this is something appropriate to ask for a network that is supposed to be an umbrella for many networks as some people prefer to remains quiet about themselves and don't want to feel that kind of pressure to open up.



So let's review some facts.

First, the sign up process can no doubt evolve and get better. It will, especially if we have more volume. Th current process was developed some time ago, before DFRC was even on AN, and it was created for DFRC, not for AN as the umbrella organization. As more groups join AN I suspect they will want to have different processes and I would hope that the Joomla technology can support that. That's the ideal situation, IMHO.

Second, in the entire history of DFRC not one person has complained about having to provide a small bit of detail about how they found out about AN/ DFRC and their practice. Some may indeed think it's intrusive but they have not said so. Some seem to like the human touch it represents. YMMV.

Again, what you're seeing on AN at present is optimized for its only current customer, DFRC, and when more customers join in there will have to be changes. We're willing to be flexible and not insist that it's "our way or the highway."

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 11:59 AM as a reply to Simon T..
"I believe that it will be more time consuming to deal with all those approval than to clean up and ban any troll."


You've heard the phrase "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" right? It's true when managing a message board system. It can be very time consuming to ban trolls, especially determined trolls. Better to let them know up front that someone is paying attention. Legally, as I've learned from working with several social media attorneys over the years, it's far better to manage the system proactively than to let it run itself until there is a problem.

Maybe it's not for everyone but we do it that way at DFRC.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 12:29 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Hi all,

Since this possible merger is about sharing a tech platform and umbrella community, can we take a minute to think about if Awake Network (and tech changes) were moving into the DhO and under its style format and its cultural leniency and its name?

This is a sincere exercise in equanimity.

If AN cannot conceive of moving under the umbrella of the DhO style/look/guidelines, cultural norms (leniency of posting, "recent posts" organization, no sub-communities, full non-commercialism (despite regular offers to donate behind the scenes)) then I think there is a gap in communities' values/valued habits showing that should be carefully considered before any merger.

In other words, each community should be able to envisage life in the other community's nest, so to speak.

To need the "Awake Network" banner (or the DhO banner if that were the case) would be a "brand need" outside of the stated platform and umbrella interests. It would point to the importance of someone's brand. It would be fair to return just to the issues of platform and umbrella and just to sincerely consider a new "brand" in the merger, a new name, that both communities would agree to.

So Awake Network, could we just change the umbrella name from Awake Network to Dharmaoverground? How would that feel to do that?

E.g., Or is there actually a brand need --- Awake Network's --- here?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 12:35 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Hi,

katy steger:
If AN cannot conceive of moving under the umbrella of the DhO style/look/guidelines, cultural norms (leniency of posting, "recent posts" organization, no sub-communities, full non-commercialism (despite regular offers to donate behind the scenes)) then I think there is a gap in communities' values/valued habits showing that should be carefully considered before any merger.


But I thought the point was for both communities to continue with their own cultural norms, rules for posting etc.?

Things like sub-communities/forums, recent posts tabs etc. are primarily technical issues, either a technical solution is found for any issues with the AwakeNetwork setup or it isn't, both of which are weighed into any decision for a switch.

katy steger:
To need the "Awake Network" banner (or the DhO banner if that were the case) would be a "brand need" outside of the stated platform and umbrella interests. It would point to the importance of someone's brand. It would be fair to return just to the issues of platform and umbrella and just to sincerely consider a new "brand" in the merger, a new name, that both communities would agree to. I am truly not comfortable being moved to a community that makes up t-shirts and this sort of advertising.

So Awake Network, could we just change the umbrella name from Awake Network to Dharmaoverground? How would that feel to do that?


But why? If the AwakeNetwork organisation is set up to be an umbrella organisation/technical platform for multiple diverse communities it can't change name every time a new community is brought onto the platform, and I don't understand why it should?

Simon

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 12:43 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
katy steger:
Hi all,

Since this possible merger is about sharing a tech platform and umbrella community, can we take a minute to think about if Awake Network (and tech changes) were moving into the DhO and under its style format and its cultural leniency and its name?

This is a sincere exercise in equanimity.

If AN cannot conceive of moving under the umbrella of the DhO style/look/guidelines, cultural norms (leniency of posting, "recent posts" organization, no sub-communities, full non-commercialism (despite regular offers to donate behind the scenes)) then I think there is a gap in communities' values/valued habits showing that should be carefully considered before any merger.

In other words, each community should be able to envisage life in the other community's nest, so to speak.


This exercise relies on the assumption that the communities are merging, which isn't Daniel, Chris or Tom's stated intent.

To address each point you raised in the paragraph below:

"If AN cannot conceive of moving under the umbrella of the DhO style/look/guidelines, cultural norms (leniency of posting, 'recent posts' organization, no sub-communities, full non-commercialism (despite regular offers to donate behind the scenes)) then I think there is a gap in communities' values/valued habits showing that should be carefully considered before any merger."

1. DhO style/look/guidelines - The style/look of DhO are pretty godawful, unless you take the wood paneling to be a Twin Peaks reference. The posting guidelines at DhO are less stringent than AN's, and it's clear the DhO portion of the forum can have whatever posting rules it wants. That element isn't an issue.

2. cultural norms (leniency of posting, 'recent posts' organization, no sub-communities, full non-commercialism) - Chris and Tom have already stated they're willing to simplify the registration process. Basic AN registration would become easier while applying for membership in private communities like DFRC would retain more stringent requirements.

If you're a DhO-only poster, the existence of "sub-communities" won't affect you. You'll be able to log in and post on the DhO section of the site as you do now. But if you're a DhO, KFD, and AN participant right now, like me, you already have to deal with sub-communities at different URLs with different logins and it's a pain in the ass. Having a single login on the AN platform will ultimately save time.

Recent Posts-wise, it should be possible (at the very least) to introduce filters for the Recent Posts area, so Recent Posts will show DhO posts only if that's what you prefer.

There are a lot of blogging and social media bells and whistles on AN right now, but I'm able to ignore them and get to Recent Posts without an issue. I don't want AN to ditch those extra features because it's possible they'll become useful in the future.

Edit:
"To need the "Awake Network" banner (or the DhO banner if that were the case) would be a "brand need" outside of the stated platform and umbrella interests. It would point to the importance of someone's brand. It would be fair to return just to the issues of platform and umbrella and just to sincerely consider a new "brand" in the merger, a new name, that both communities would agree to.

So Awake Network, could we just change the umbrella name from Awake Network to Dharmaoverground? How would that feel to do that?

E.g., Or is there actually a brand need --- Awake Network's --- here?"


Can you identify a single human individual at DhO or AN who actually has "brand needs", whatever those are? I don't think migrating multiple forums to a single platform, UI, and visual style forces a "brand change" on those communities. If each community has its own separate membership, mission, and posting guidelines, the communities will remain distinct. The people, not the technology, are what makes a community.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 1:17 PM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Hi Simon,

If there is a branding need here, it should be stated.

This desire and need to fly one's own banner (branding) is not trivial. It is a hot-coal need of "I am" suited to commercial parties.

So, again, I'm grateful to this site's founder for operating a site without branding, just dhamma in all its stinky-mud-to-sweet-lotus iterations, not fostering any promotional desires.

____________

Hi Matthew Horn,
This exercise relies on the assumption that the communities are merging, which isn't Daniel, Chris or Tom's stated intent.


Well, please read this again:
Chris Marti 9/4/13 10:11 AM
We want this to happen. All we need to do is figure out the tactical aspects. Sounds like most of us accept the strategy as a valid one.



Can you identify a single human individual at DhO or AN who actually has "brand needs", whatever those are?
Well, it won't hurt then to seriously consider having the umbrella be called "Dharmaoverground". Let's really consider that and see how people feel? But clearly, people have ideas about the culture of these communities and that they are a little different (and AN fostering advertising them on t-shirts just reinforces one's own "party", tribe, etc... It's un pleasant to see this advertising on lots of things, Karmapa shirts and so on. For dharma...really???).

So seriously, consider the umbrella being called "DharmaOverground" and see if people in AN like that they'd be under this name. Or just consider a new name. I'm not interested in being in a group that enjoys/fosters advertising itself. It seems a gross, needless, tribally self-invested and thus unskillful distraction from the great heart-mind of the dharma study.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 1:21 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Personally I'm fine with new names if it eliminates this branding issue, which seems to bother some. The name "DFRC" gets lost in the shuffle anyway. I'm not sure most of our members even know that's the name of what they belong to. As was explained already by Tom, AN and DFRC are not set up to make money. It's not a commercial endeavor at all. Tom and I have been supporting the system with our own personal funds and the "Donate" option is there only to help us recover our costs. It's not meant to generate profits. So if that's a sticking point I suspect it's pretty easily overcome.

Tom may have another opinion on the names so we need to let him speak for himself.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 1:33 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris,

Thank you for hearing that point and being open to it.

As to advertising/shirt-making/tribal identification-claiming, I know people have fun with it, but I'd much rather this not be endorsed by or linked in a dhamma site. It is a conceited distraction based in the greed root and reinforces, elevates "I am" to something incorrectly desirable. This is a fine and normal thing for a person to do individually and a natural stage to pass through, but for a dhamma site to endorse it would be to me more than a red flag. It would signal for me willful ignorance of the study laid out by the buddha.

I liked your idea of an annual fundraiser, btw, in order that the donate button not be up all the time. I also wonder if word-of-mouth can also accomplish it more along the lines of what Bruno has mentioned.

____________
To all English-as-a-Second-Language folks:
I just want to thank you again for participating here in English (and linking us to your translations). I'll keep working on my distracting typos...

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 1:41 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
The annual fundraiser was not my idea. Someone else proffered it.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 3:19 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
katy steger:
Hi Simon,

If there is a branding need here, it should be stated.

This desire and need to fly one's own banner (branding) is not trivial. It is a hot-coal need of "I am" suited to commercial parties.

So, again, I'm grateful to this site's founder for operating a site without branding, just dhamma in all its stinky-mud-to-sweet-lotus iterations, not fostering any promotional desires.

____________

Hi Matthew Horn,
This exercise relies on the assumption that the communities are merging, which isn't Daniel, Chris or Tom's stated intent.


Well, please read this again:
Chris Marti 9/4/13 10:11 AM
We want this to happen. All we need to do is figure out the tactical aspects. Sounds like most of us accept the strategy as a valid one.


"We want this to happen." Does 'this' refer to communities merging or to DhO changing technology platforms? Chris isn't saying what you think he is.

"If there is a branding need here, it should be stated.

This desire and need to fly one's own banner (branding) is not trivial. It is a hot-coal need of "I am" suited to commercial parties."

What aspect of this situation implies AN has a "branding need", much less a "hot-coal need of 'I am' suited to commercial parties"? You're reading a lot of base drives and intentions into this situation and what you're seeing just isn't there.

Edit:
katy steger:

As to advertising/shirt-making/tribal identification-claiming, I know people have fun with it, but I'd much rather this not be endorsed by or linked in a dhamma site. It is a conceited distraction based in the greed root and reinforces, elevates "I am" to something incorrectly desirable. This is a fine and normal thing for a person to do individually and a natural stage to pass through, but for a dhamma site to endorse it would be to me more than a red flag. It would signal for me willful ignorance of the study laid out by the buddha.


This wacky exhibition of fundamentalist sanctimony is a far grosser violation of the Buddha's teaching than laypeople wearing t-shirts. It's also almost certainly hypocritical. "It would signal for me willful ignorance of the study laid out by the buddha." You never adorn your person with symbols of in-group membership?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 1:53 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Hi,

katy steger:
If there is a branding need here, it should be stated.


Sure.

katy steger:
This desire and need to fly one's own banner (branding) is not trivial. It is a hot-coal need of "I am" suited to commercial parties.


But branding is hardly anything unique to commercial enterprises, most any profit or non-profit organisation has a brand identity.

katy steger:
So, again, I'm grateful to this site's founder for operating a site without branding, just dhamma in all its stinky-mud-to-sweet-lotus iterations, not fostering any promotional desires.


But surely The Dharma Overground is a brand, the site even has a big logo up top.

katy steger:

Hi Matthew Horn,
This exercise relies on the assumption that the communities are merging, which isn't Daniel, Chris or Tom's stated intent.


Well, please read this again:
Chris Marti 9/4/13 10:11 AM
We want this to happen. All we need to do is figure out the tactical aspects. Sounds like most of us accept the strategy as a valid one.



I think Matthews point was that the communities are not merging, the DhO is just looking to share a common technical platform provided by the AwakeNetwork.

katy steger:
So seriously, consider the umbrella being called "DharmaOverground" and see if people in AN like that they'd be under this name. Or just consider a new name. I'm not interested in being in a group that enjoys/fosters advertising itself. It seems a gross, needless, tribally self-invested and thus unskillful distraction from the great heart-mind of the dharma study.


Renaming the AwakeNetwork organisation to DharmaOverground would be very confusing, as there already exists a The Dharma Overground (DhO) brand and community, which would continue to exist as a separate entity even after a move to the new technical platform (currently AwakeNetwork).

Simon

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 1:58 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Also, where monies are taken in from users, regardless of corporate structure or sole proprietorship, I'd like to see/offer a thread with monies in/monies out delineated. I'd be happy to set up such a spreadsheet and maintain such a thread here or elsewhere and maintain easily for succession.

These are significant transparency details that a site-newbie can see without having to ask --- like, also seeing a lack of advertising and self-promotion/branding --- which help the site-newbie build conviction that the site reflects well the dharma study, that dharma is pervasive not conveniently cherry-picked, and that the site has as its obvious chief goal the cessation of dukkha. This builds actual trust and good modeling for the newbie to dig into the great challenge of own mind, own habits, cessation of roots of dukkha, and nibbana.

It was such transparency and non-promotion (as well as non-heirarchy, even by the founder) like this that helped me come to this site and eventually work on/with my mind.

This is the time and place I think to be quite clear in expressing our thoughts on this possible merger, so I am.

Kind regards,
Katy

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 3:19 PM as a reply to Tom O..
Tom O.:
Brian Eleven:

I requested a login two(2) days ago and have just had to respond to...what I guess is a weeding out process? Perhaps this is just a hiccup. but making people answer even simple questions (who do you practice with?, where did you here about us?) via email, certainly isn't welcoming. If I wasn't aware of the people and quality of conversation taking place I would have just said don't bother with my "membership".
I have 5 emails in my inbox from AN, plus two I sent just to join. Streamline somehow, please.

Brian.


Sorry, but I have to bite on this one. Your registration happened on the 3rd at 7:21 PM. I responded with an email to you the next morning at 7:32 AM (12h later), and that was only because I had not seen Chris respond sooner, and that is because he is currently having some mail server issues. Your did not reply to that email until the 5th, at 1:16 PM (30h later), and you were approved 24 minutes after that. I think it only fair to point out that the "two(2) days" were mostly at your end.

I don't mind criticism when it is deserved, but your wording of that was kind of misleading.

And whoever pointed out the password-in-email issue, thanks for that. I was not aware of it and a security upgrade to Joomla has fixed that.


OK point taken, really it only takes about twelve hours to gain approval to become a member.
I guess what I had a larger concern about is the need to explain to some random person why I should be accepted into your forum. Like many people I consider my spiritual practice to be highly personal and intimate, I find it mildly offensive that I have to meet some standards that you have set. I don't know you from Adam, so how about you explain who you are? If this isn't the purpose, then why have it at all. What is to stop someone from lying to you, I suspect that happens on the internet. Perhaps after finding out more about you, I would change my mind about wanting to be on your forum.

Brian

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 3:32 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Reading these threads I'm at a bit of a loss as to what the benefit is to anyone if DhO "goes under the umbrella of Awake Network"? I get the technical issue, but why couldn't DhO just use the same open source basis and keep it's name and separate identity?
What/Who benefits from a merger? I heard someone mention cross-pollination of ideas? I already read several forums/blogs per day. I carry over ideas from one to another, sometimes I post links to other sites if I think they will be of interest. I'm not alone in doing this. So, again what is the benefit? I may be missing something obvious, but perhaps the schisms happened for a reason?

Brian.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 3:50 PM as a reply to Brian Eleven.
Nikolai:
Will it be an issue that the DhO is still inclusive of all the practices, views and approaches (and dogmas) that initially triggered the sangha split?


Brian:
What/Who benefits from a merger? I heard someone mention cross-pollination of ideas? I already read several forums/blogs per day. I carry over ideas from one to another, sometimes I post links to other sites if I think they will be of interest. I'm not alone in doing this. So, again what is the benefit? I may be missing something obvious, but perhaps the schisms happened for a reason?
Yes.

What were the schism points and are they resolved?

What's wrong with the nice little communities as they are, merged under the Internet?


Chris, would you clarify what you mean here:
9/4/13 10:11 AM
Remember, Tom and I approached Daniel with this idea, as we have also approached Kenneth Folk. We want this to happen. All we need to do is figure out the tactical aspects. Sounds like most of us accept the strategy as a valid one.



___________________
Added: I do appreciate that we're having this thread regardless of how this goes: merge/not merge. It is a useful, rare review/survey of our individual values and interests in these dharma sites.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 4:49 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Regarding the joining of the AwakeNetwork by the DhO, alongside DRFC and possibly KFD, here are, from my reading of this thread, 3 points to address:

1°) All DhO threads should be google-searchable (and thus 'public' in AN)

* I don't know which solution could meet 1°) and DRFC's own requirement at the same time, namely:
** have private DRFC threads
** not be flooded with other communities's posts in the Recent Posts
** share (and be shared with) a few threads, that are thought of being potentially of common interest to all AN communities, to encourage and easen cross-fertilization. (which is one of AN's main 'raison d'être', if I gor it right)


2°) The joining process. "It should be automatic and non intrusive".

In my view, this relates to the membership of DhO. The DhO has the particularity of drawing in, or at least not scaring off, people "from the fringes", along with some franc-tireur, and some people very wary of their independence etc.
This is, in my opinion (and my only real opinion here!), a valuable feature of the DHO, and it is frail, so I'd be careful about how to preserve it. (I wouldn't be surprised if the very idea of several communities under one banner was enough to repel some, who are comfortable with Daniel's "liberal maverickness").

Would the following joining process be a problem for AN and DRFC?
* Join the AN 'hassle-free' (username/password/email address, no questions asked). Once you got an AN account, you could:
* Answer a few questions and have a couple of email exchanges to join DRFC.
* And/or join the DhO.
* And/or join KFD if Kenneth joins (with whichever policy he's comfortable with)


3°) The Donate and merchandizing policy.

The current policy will surely keep some people (a minority, as in point 2°) ) from considering the communities any further, there's no way around that.

To mitigate this, maybe the policy could be different across communities? No AN Donate banner, any money-related matters would be managed at community-level (for instance, a Donate banneron DRFC).
With an agreement about cost-sharing between the 3 benevolent dictators...


In the end, my suggestions all go in one direction: keep community-related questions at community level as much as possible, the AN providing technology to the community leaders, cost-savings to the communities, top-of-the-iceberg threads (plus social media and stuff) to foster interconnectedness in the pragmatic scene, and a unique login to members of the scene.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 4:56 PM as a reply to Phantom of the Opera.
Phantom of the Opera:
In the end, my suggestions all go in one direction: keep community-related questions at community level as much as possible, the AN providing technology to the community leaders, cost-savings to the communities, top-of-the-iceberg threads (plus social media and stuff) to foster interconnectedness in the pragmatic scene, and a unique login to members of the scene.


This whole post is spot on.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 5:01 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
"I believe that it will be more time consuming to deal with all those approval than to clean up and ban any troll."


You've heard the phrase "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" right? It's true when managing a message board system. It can be very time consuming to ban trolls, especially determined trolls. Better to let them know up front that someone is paying attention. Legally, as I've learned from working with several social media attorneys over the years, it's far better to manage the system proactively than to let it run itself [i]until there is a problem.

Maybe it's not for everyone but we do it that way at DFRC.


Here lie the cultural difference between AN and the DhO. What I see is a desire to control things way beyond what is necessary. Attorneys aren't necessarly the folks that arbor the most dharma-infused mindstate, as any legal system is hardly an expression of the dharma in any form. Are any of those folks behind the somewhat over the top "rules" found on AN?

The rules of Awake Network forum:

The purpose of these guidelines is to provide basic information and a code of conduct for the use of the forums operated by awakenetwork.org on the Internet.

You may use the forums for lawful purposes only. You may not post messages that are threatening, abusive, defamatory, vulgar, obscene or otherwise objectionable. You may not post messages that encourage conduct that constitutes a criminal offense or that infringe upon the publicity or privacy rights or any other rights of any person or party. Awakenetwork.org may remove your postings and/or cancel your access to these boards at any time. Awakenetwork.org, in its sole discretion, shall have the right to determine whether messages are in violation of these guidelines.

These forums are for discussion purposes and meant as a way to exchange ideas and communicate among people with similar interests. You may not use the forums to post or transmit advertisements or commercial solicitations of any kind.

You may not post or transmit any material of any nature, including, text, audio, software, animation, or photographs, belonging to any person or party other than yourself, without the prior, written consent of the owner. Simply because material is available on the Internet does not mean it is in the public domain. The vast majority of materials on the Internet is protected by copyright and trademark laws.

Awakenetwork.org has the right, but not the obligation, to monitor the content of these forums, and may retain the services of independent contractors or volunteers to perform these functions. Awakenetwork.org maintains the right, in its sole discretion, to edit, refuse to post, or remove any material submitted to or posted on the forums which awakenetwork.org believes is in violation these guidelines, or is stale, or to free up storage space and/or bandwidth usage.

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Awakenetwork.org collects no personally identifiable data about you, except that specifically and knowingly provided by you. Personally identifying information provided by you will be used only in connection with the awakenetwork.org site or for such other purposes as are described at the point of collection. Such information will not be transferred to any other parties unless otherwise stated at the time of collection. If you are a minor, awakenetwork.org assumes you have received your parents' approval before providing any personally identifying information. Awakenetwork.org will only use such information collected from children for the editorial participation and feedback purposes described at the point of collection and will not transfer such information to third parties.

Either awakenetwork.org or you may elect to terminate your participation on the Awakenetwork.org bulletin boards at any time, with or without cause.


Contrast that to the closest things to such rules I could find on the DhO:


In the DhO FAQ:
What is inappropriate?
?
Seeking attention in a personal manner, speculating about half-understood concepts, guessing instead of finding out, and being dogmatic and closed-minded. Though uncommon, the moderators of the Dharma Overground will warn folks who aren't following the basic guidelines of this site to cease and desist. If there are repeated behaviors which undermine the health of the community you will be asked to leave. Though again this isn't common, we've found it necessary from time-to-time to ask someone to leave, in order to preserve a safe and rationally-grounded space for discussion. Additionally: don't post personal information about people that they wouldn't want posted, and don't violate basic laws (e.g. posting private health data, committing libel, telling malicious lies or even needless malicious truths that don't further the goal of promoting skillful practice). Not only should you not do unto others as you wouldn't have them do unto you, but also don't do unto them as they wouldn't want done to themselves regardless of whether or not you care if it was done to you.



If your rules were only some tiny fineprints put there to help you sleep at night, I wouldn't make a big deal of it. But there are rules to be enforced by moderators. The tone is authoritarian and one of policing. Such rules can very well infuse a sense of duty in a moderator in search of self-importance. This is not the tone a dharma community needs.

As an example, a few members of the DhO and myself have posted about their past and current illicit drug use experiences. I'm non apologetic of my use of drugs on the path and I appreciate the opportunity this discuss those things on the DhO. I'm aware of one instance where someone ended up trying such illicit substance after reading a post I made about it and I feel perfectly comfortable with that. As it is said in the DhO welcome page:
you take responsibility for the choices you make and what you say and claim


May I ask: Considering your rule about encouraging criminal offences and the removal of "objectionable" material, would I be allowed to speak freely about my drug use, without the threat that something I put a lot of energy writing, with my best intent to share a personal aspect of my life, isn't going to be removed by some well-intentioned administrator that rightly interpret my positive experience as a form of encouragement to an illicit activity?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 5:13 PM as a reply to Simon T..
Agree.
Simon T.:
Here lie the cultural difference between AN and the DhO. What I see is a desire to control things way beyond what is necessary.
(...)
Contrast that to the closest things to such rules I could find on the DhO (...)

There is a very different way of receiving and handling in each forum.

Simon T:
May I ask: Considering your rule about encouraging criminal offences and the removal of "objectionable" material, would I be allowed to speak freely about my drug use, without the threat that something I put a lot of energy writing, with my best intent to share a personal aspect of my life, isn't going to be removed by some well-intentioned administrator that rightly interpret my positive experience as a form of encouragement to an illicit activity?
Excellent point. This is not whitewashed here.

So back to

Brian:
What/Who benefits from a merger? I heard someone mention cross-pollination of ideas? I already read several forums/blogs per day. I carry over ideas from one to another, sometimes I post links to other sites if I think they will be of interest. I'm not alone in doing this. So, again what is the benefit? I may be missing something obvious, but perhaps the schisms happened for a reason?


Me:
What's wrong with the nice little communities as they are, merged under the Internet?


Nikolai:
Will it be an issue that the DhO is still inclusive of all the practices, views and approaches (and dogmas) that initially triggered the sangha split?



And Chris, would you clarify what you mean here:
9/4/13 10:11 AM
Remember, Tom and I approached Daniel with this idea, as we have also approached Kenneth Folk. We want this to happen. All we need to do is figure out the tactical aspects. Sounds like most of us accept the strategy as a valid one.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/6/13 10:57 PM as a reply to Simon T..
The concern about experiences on substances is valid.

I personally think that as people will use substances, only some of which are illegal in certain places, and that spiritual seeking and substance use often are related to each other (with some traditions having them as a primary part of their path), and as plenty of people got into this stuff after having some experiences with substances, and as people will definitely continue to use them, it makes sense, in the spirit of, say, Erowid, to have open, frank, honest discussions around their effects, both good, bad, and otherwise, so that, with sufficient data, people can make better choices and be less likely to harm themselves and others and more likely to benefit from those choices.

We are basically all adults here, and the internet these days is a wide open place. I very much appreciate truth, information, and community over censorship and the like. Were someone trying to sell drugs here, that would clearly be way over some line, but if people have various experiences and need a place to process them or find information from others who have had experiences, that is just fine from my point of view, and I will need to make sure that this openness can continue on AN if a shift to that platform and umbrella occurs.

As a bit of relevant history, had a good old friend not dropped 4 hits of acid somewhere in the late 80's, this place probably wouldn't exist. I am certainly not encouraging anyone to necessarily do anything like that, as it clearly has its risks and is illegal, but that bit of causality had profound consequences decades later that were very beneficial to many hundreds of people.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/9/13 9:17 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
We are basically all adults here, and the internet these days is a wide open place.


This is a valid point to bring up and speaks in another way to the cultural difference between here and other, more paternalistic places. It's a cultural difference I remember even in the early days of the internet and, before that, BBSes.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/9/13 9:25 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
So, further data points. My tech guy, Manish Yadav, was sick for two weeks, but now feeling better and so working on the upgrade to 6.1. He mentioned that 6.2 would actually be coming soon. When I mentioned we were thinking of moving to Joomla, he provided the following links in counterargument:


"Migration to joomla php Frame work:-
WordPress and Joomla PHP frameworks are good for website which require content management . As per my understanding it will be little bit easy to upgrade in same framework compare to upgrade in different programming language. There is no direct mechanism to migrate Liferay website to Joomla framework and It will require lots of customization, time, effort and money. Existing website have Roles ,Community, Users, Permission,message board, wiki etc. Liferay Database is highly normalized and it’s not easy to migrate everything to PHP. I’ll recommended to go with liferay compare to PHP frameworks because it will be less challenging and more secure and rich Out of Box functionality...

In coming months Liferay is going to release new version 6.2 which have lots of new features

Link 1Joomla vs LiferayNew Control PanelNew Control PanelNew Admin"

Anyone want to comment on his points from a tech point of view who knows both platforms, particularly the new one and what is coming shortly in 6.2?

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/9/13 12:00 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
So, further data points. My tech guy, Manish Yadav, was sick for two weeks, but now feeling better and so working on the upgrade to 6.1. He mentioned that 6.2 would actually be coming soon. When I mentioned we were thinking of moving to Joomla, he provided the following links in counterargument:


"Migration to joomla php Frame work:-
WordPress and Joomla PHP frameworks are good for website which require content management . As per my understanding it will be little bit easy to upgrade in same framework compare to upgrade in different programming language. There is no direct mechanism to migrate Liferay website to Joomla framework and It will require lots of customization, time, effort and money. Existing website have Roles ,Community, Users, Permission,message board, wiki etc. Liferay Database is highly normalized and it’s not easy to migrate everything to PHP. I’ll recommended to go with liferay compare to PHP frameworks because it will be less challenging and more secure and rich Out of Box functionality...

In coming months Liferay is going to release new version 6.2 which have lots of new features

Link 1Joomla vs LiferayNew Control PanelNew Control PanelNew Admin"

Anyone want to comment on his points from a tech point of view who knows both platforms, particularly the new one and what is coming shortly in 6.2?



If indeed it's possible to move to Liferay 6.2 and that this iteration offer the more modern features members are hoping for, I guess this is a safe choice. Joomla offferings like Community Builder and JoomSocial are patchworks of multiple extensions.

I did inquire http://gconverter.com/ about their Liferay to Joomla conversion offerings. They pretends that it is a service that they offer and wanted to provide a quote (I didn't provide them the link to dharmaoverground as I'm not interested in advocating this solution nor getting involved in the support of the Joomla website). I don't believe they could provide an update that wouldn't broke links to the DhO without some serious tweaking that would compromise future updates. But this option is there.

What users hope the most is a private messaging system that actually works and is integrated with the forum (you click on the user to send a message instead of looking for its name in an infinite list). Indicators on the front page when someone get a message.

Beyond that, I'm of the opinion that any other features added need to be well integrated with the rest. The wiki is not being used because it's a separate system. There is no indicators for updates. Many users have their own blog hosted somewhere else. If liferay support blogs in a sane manner, well integrated with the rest, I'm sure people would end up using such feature. Meditation logs could also be well served by another posting format than the forum (the blog format might works).

Again, having a clean home page portal that provide the member with a quick overview of everything that has been updated recently (Imagine the "Recent Posts" of the forum with a sidebar that shows blogs updates, meditation log update, wiki update, etc, new message), it would surely make me happy.

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
9/9/13 2:49 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
While I have no particular knowledge about Liferay as a product I'll throw in a couple of thoughts.

A version upgrade of the current Liferay platform is as your tech guys writes almost certainly a whole lot easier than moving to a brand new (Joomla or other) platform.

In my opinion the most realistic options are either upgrading the current platform to a newer version of Liferay or migrating to the AwakeNetwork platform. Moving the DhO to a new platform would entail some serious work if done properly, and with that I mean migrating user accounts, migrating existing threads, creating valid redirects for existing thread links etc. If that were to be done someone with the tech knowledge to pull it of and plenty of free time would have to take the reins and see the project through to completion. That's one of the positive aspects I see with possibly migrating to the AwakeNetwork platform, there is already a tech guy there that is willing to take the lead on the migration process.

If the DhO stays on an upgraded Liferay platform it might be worthwhile to think about how future upgrades and platform management can be handled in a convenient manner, either by volunteers in the current member base or via payed outside help, perhaps with the help of donations from the community?

Simon

RE: Thoughts on Integrating the DhO with Awake Network
Answer
11/13/13 10:16 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I'm curious to know what's the status of the update to the most recent version of Liferay or any other plan to upgrade to a new system.