Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

IAMTHAT That Ami, modified 7 Years ago.

Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

Posts: 47 Join Date: 12/7/13 Recent Posts
It doesn't make sense.

Why not be born Enlightened from the get-go as that would solve a myriad of problems, both of having to get Enlightenment, as well as the lack of empathy, love, connectedness, and spiritual evolution we see in the world, which in turn then causes all of the world's problems.

It's almost like the current reality system that's in place, is specifically designed to make Enlightenment such an impossible and difficult task, that only .0000001% will ever uncover it.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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It's because nobody is running the universe
IAMTHAT That Ami, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
It's because nobody is running the universe

If nobody was running it, then there would be nothing and no one at all.

But there is something/someone, and others. Obviously something is behind reality/existence because it exists and is very intelligently put together. Evolution is a very smart design, all these atoms, molecules, subatomic particles are getting their instructions and rules of how to assemble from something/somewhere very clever.
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Psi Phi, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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IAMTHAT That Ami:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
It's because nobody is running the universe

If nobody was running it, then there would be nothing and no one at all.

But there is something/someone, and others. Obviously something is behind reality/existence because it exists and is very intelligently put together. Evolution is a very smart design, all these atoms, molecules, subatomic particles are getting their instructions and rules of how to assemble from something/somewhere very clever.


If we were very intelligently put together why do we have snot-holes in the middle of our faces? If someone is behind all this, it is a cosmic comedian.
IAMTHAT That Ami, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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Psi Phi:
IAMTHAT That Ami:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
It's because nobody is running the universe

If nobody was running it, then there would be nothing and no one at all.

But there is something/someone, and others. Obviously something is behind reality/existence because it exists and is very intelligently put together. Evolution is a very smart design, all these atoms, molecules, subatomic particles are getting their instructions and rules of how to assemble from something/somewhere very clever.


If we were very intelligently put together why do we have snot-holes in the middle of our faces? If someone is behind all this, it is a cosmic comedian.

where would you put "snot-holes" so that it's an improved design over where they are now, and can you provide some basis for it.

I don't know if it's a cosmic comedian. It might also be a prison warden.
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No-Second-Arrow Z, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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IAMTHAT That Ami:

If nobody was running it, then there would be nothing and no one at all.

Actually, Stephen Hawking has an interesting theory in which no god is needed and that there is no beginning and no end...
Just like...the buddha said.
No beginning

edited to add; the buddha also refused to answer questions that were not aimed towards the goal of enlightenment:
Unanswered questions
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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IAMTHAT That Ami:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
It's because nobody is running the universe

If nobody was running it, then there would be nothing and no one at all.

That doesn't follow. Objects have inherent natural properties, e.g. objects with mass attract other objects with mass. Nobody has to be running the show per se in order to have objects attract each other, rather, they just interact according to the laws of physics - which are independent of our understanding of said laws, of course, and which are only modeled by mathematical equations, but are not themselves those mathematical equations.

IAMTHAT That Ami:
But there is something/someone, and others. Obviously something is behind reality/existence because it exists and is very intelligently put together.

It's not necessarily intelligent. You're anthropomorphizing what occurs naturally as a result of inherent properties. I agree that what results are amazingly complex and intricate and beautiful and, indeed, intelligent (e.g. humans) patterns, but that doesn't mean intelligence produced them per se.

IAMTHAT That Ami:
Evolution is a very smart design, [...]

Evolution isn't a design, it's a word to describe what happens as a result of objects' inherent natural properties. The genes that survive are the ones that manage to replicate themselves successfully, so the organisms you see around today are those that are generated by those genes. This follows directly from the inherent properties of energy and matter - there's no need to posit any other design because that is the entire extent of it. Evolution is just a word to describe how it all unfolds.

IAMTHAT That Ami:
[...] all these atoms, molecules, subatomic particles are getting their instructions and rules of how to assemble from something/somewhere very clever.

What you are saying is that before anything existed, there was this supremely intelligent and clever being that can manage the mind-boggling, incomprehensible complexity of the universe, and it then decided to create the universe in such a way that it reset to extremely basic things - e.g. the solar system started as a cloud of gas particles floating in space, supposedly - which then very slowly progressed into more complex things - e.g. sun + planets, then plants, then animals, and humans - up to the point where some of those complex things, i.e. me and you, could discuss these matters. The progression of everything we have been able to record and observe is from simple to more complex. There's no sensible or rational reason to posit a supremely and ultimately complex thing *FIRST* which we cannot observe in any way but which somehow shapes and affects everything.
IAMTHAT That Ami, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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That doesn't follow. Objects have inherent natural properties, e.g. objects with mass attract other objects with mass. Nobody has to be running the show per se in order to have objects attract each other, rather, they just interact according to the laws of physics - which are independent of our understanding of said laws, of course, and which are only modeled by mathematical equations, but are not themselves those mathematical equations.

yes, yes, of course, i know all hat....but you said the "laws of physics"...

there are "laws". Just like lake a country has and implements laws imposed upon and enforced by the government that created them.....Hmmmm!!!!

What creates those "laws" to be in place as they are, and to remain that way?
It's not necessarily intelligent. You're anthropomorphizing what occurs naturally as a result of inherent properties. I agree that what results are amazingly complex and intricate and beautiful and, indeed, intelligent (e.g. humans) patterns, but that doesn't mean intelligence produced them per se.

You're anthropomorphizing "inherent properties" as what "occurs naturally".

What occurs naturally looks to be occurring quite intelligently
Evolution isn't a design, it's a word to describe what happens as a result of objects' inherent natural properties.

Evolution is the system life uses to evolve, adapt, overcome, grow. If there is no intelligence, then it dies, devolves, etc. All of that which "happens" seems to be intelligent to me. For example tree's where here before we were, converting light into energy, and we've just recently in the last 100 years or so figured out how it works. Sure is an intelligent process if you ask me.
The genes that survive are the ones that manage to replicate themselves successfully, so the organisms you see around today are those that are generated by those genes. This follows directly from the inherent properties of energy and matter - there's no need to posit any other design because that is the entire extent of it. Evolution is just a word to describe how it all unfolds.

Why do genes thrive to survive? Where are they getting the signals from, to do an act as they do? Inherent properties all of rules, laws, which govern them. Where are these rules, laws, governance coming from?
What you are saying is that before anything existed, there was this supremely intelligent and clever being that can manage the mind-boggling, incomprehensible complexity of the universe, and it then decided to create the universe in such a way that it reset to extremely basic things - e.g. the solar system started as a cloud of gas particles floating in space, supposedly - which then very slowly progressed into more complex things - e.g. sun + planets, then plants, then animals, and humans - up to the point where some of those complex things, i.e. me and you, could discuss these matters. The progression of everything we have been able to record and observe is from simple to more complex. There's no sensible or rational reason to posit a supremely and ultimately complex thing *FIRST* which we cannot observe in any way but which somehow shapes and affects everything.

I'm not saying any of that...and never posited what you say above. I'm merely asking......

Why can't there be a complexity prior to a primitive basic? I see such a think all around. A human who is complex, smart, evolved, creates a brand new primitive blank slate child, knowing that it will eventually evolve and unfold
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Pål S., modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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IAMTHAT That Ami:
Why do genes thrive to survive? Where are they getting the signals from, to do an act as they do? Inherent properties all of rules, laws, which govern them. Where are these rules, laws, governance coming from?

Why do you think genes needs to be signaled on what to do?
Why do you think these rules/laws comes from somewhere/someone?
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. Jake ., modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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I would question the assumption that intelligence requires 'design'.

Design implies forethought.

Anyone who has ever improvised musically knows that there is plenty of intelligence that is undesigned, spontaneous. This intelligence arises as a response, or as a synergy of multiple responses echoing between different systems.

To me it seems simpler to assume that Universe is like a collective improvisation. I suspect that's why I feel the most free when I'm being the most spontaneous- being like everything else in nature. (Oh, and spontaneous is different from impulsive. It's off the impulsive/deliberate spectrum in the way I'm using the terms.)

What if Universe is not a giant closed system that is coherant but rather a pluralistic unfolding of indeterminate multiplicity of interactive systems? And all the intelligence that we so clearly see in Universe is a perpetual synergetic play of a vast multiplicity of systems on various scales? Isn't something like that more consistent with our experience?

Also, 'laws of physics' as a term is just a metaphor, and what Claudieu said earlier may be true here as well: you seem to be anthropomorphizing Universe if you take the metaphor seriously.

The Laws of Physics aren't anything like the laws of a society, that is just a metaphor and a poor one at that which reflects the culture of the early enlightenment. Those early scientists used phrases like that because they couldn't let go of the idea of a Creator, and they were trying to frame their theories and discoveries in terms of a depersonalized God, a sort of platonized de-christianized metaphysic which was still monotheistic.

A more accurate term for the Laws of Physics would be something like 'the regularities humans observe in the behavior of physical systems'. These regularities are described in different languages including the mathemetical, but in any case are just that- descriptions of regularities, of patterns. They are in no way Laws that were laid down prior to the systems that exhibit those regularities by an intelligent designer.


for that matter, and tying back into the reflection on spontaneity above, human laws don't describe human behaviors very well, as most of us break all kinds of laws (and mores) all the time as a matter of course. The attempt to control by superimposing Laws on behavior is not very succesful. What appears more succesful to me in generating generally beneficial activity is discovering the spontaneity that is naturally arising moment to moment, and which is deeper than both impulse and repression/suppression.

Perhaps we *are* born enlightened-- in that first instant of each moment before all the patterns of self-manipulation kick in to try to control the flow of experience, whether as instinct or deliberation? Perhaps awakening and freedom are already present and actualizing here and now, yet we are more invested in all the patterns of control and reactivity that are also arising here and now?
IAMTHAT That Ami, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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Anyone who has ever improvised musically knows that there is plenty of intelligence that is undesigned, spontaneous. This intelligence arises as a response, or as a synergy of multiple responses echoing between different systems.

When improvising, you have to do so within a certain set of laws/rules, fro example staying with a certain key/scale. On top of that, your instrument has to be properly tuned.

Take those laws/rules out of imrov, and you will sound no better than cats screaming in a cat fat. Harshness to the ears
To me it seems simpler to assume that Universe is like a collective improvisation. I suspect that's why I feel the most free when I'm being the most spontaneous- being like everything else in nature. (Oh, and spontaneous is different from impulsive. It's off the impulsive/deliberate spectrum in the way I'm using the terms.)

What if Universe is not a giant closed system that is coherant but rather a pluralistic unfolding of indeterminate multiplicity of interactive systems? And all the intelligence that we so clearly see in Universe is a perpetual synergetic play of a vast multiplicity of systems on various scales? Isn't something like that more consistent with our experience?

I hear where you re coming from....but like I said, there are still the laws/rules in place, limits. Every atom knows where to be. The improv of reality is set within limits/rules/laws/confines.
he Laws of Physics aren't anything like the laws of a society, that is just a metaphor and a poor one at that which reflects the culture of the early enlightenment. Those early scientists used phrases like that because they couldn't let go of the idea of a Creator, and they were trying to frame their theories and discoveries in terms of a depersonalized God, a sort of platonized de-christianized metaphysic which was still monotheistic.

yes understood...I'm not coming from a God or No-God angle. My angles and questions are completely Open. Even with reality possibly being Begingless, the point is there is still something instead of nothing. Hence there has to be some sort of cause or principle that has reality/existence as currently unfolding, in the first place. You can't get something from nothing. If there is nothing, then there is just nothing and that's it!!!!
A more accurate term for the Laws of Physics would be something like 'the regularities humans observe in the behavior of physical systems'. These regularities are described in different languages including the mathemetical, but in any case are just that- descriptions of regularities, of patterns. They are in no way Laws that were laid down prior to the systems that exhibit those regularities by an intelligent designer.

That's cool!!! Call them what you want, laws of physics, regularities, patterns, descriptions, etc. The fact is, they are in place in a very specific and systematic manner.

What do we do when we make something, or create something? We do so with a specific purpose, design, limits, patterns, regularities, descriptions. When we make, we have to do so within the limits and confines of what is and what we know.

IF there was only Random Chaos, then there would still only be random chaos. But out of that, there is structure, regularities, patterns, descriptions. So something has had to cause chaos to form structure, to get something from nothing

for that matter, and tying back into the reflection on spontaneity above, human laws don't describe human behaviors very well, as most of us break all kinds of laws (and mores) all the time as a matter of course. The attempt to control by superimposing Laws on behavior is not very succesful. What appears more succesful to me in generating generally beneficial activity is discovering the spontaneity that is naturally arising moment to moment, and which is deeper than both impulse and repression/suppression.


Human behavior is also limited and contained to a certain range. Human behavior also has laws, egularities, patterns, descriptions
John Wilde, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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. Jake .:

Perhaps we *are* born enlightened-- in that first instant of each moment before all the patterns of self-manipulation kick in to try to control the flow of experience, whether as instinct or deliberation? Perhaps awakening and freedom are already present and actualizing here and now, yet we are more invested in all the patterns of control and reactivity that are also arising here and now?


Yes. Whatever most of us are looking for -- call it peace, happiness, freedom, gnosis, ultimate fulfillment, whatever -- is already here in abundance. It's not something that has to be added to me, or added to the world. Whenever I'm operating at my best, this is really obvious to me. And the possibility of it being a permanent condition -- not unchanging, but not losable -- is something that remains real, though as yet unrealised. Point being, the necessary conditions are already present. The universe is good enough to support it. And human intelligence is good enough to realise it and make use of it.

Clearly the necessary conditions for the { cessation, alleviation, seeing through} of obscuring factors need to be developed... otherwise it'd be a done deal. And, for me, tuning in to the always-already whatever seems to be the most satisfying, least stressful, least dogma-dependent, most freeing and enjoyable way to go about it.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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IAMTHAT That Ami:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
It's because nobody is running the universe

If nobody was running it, then there would be nothing and no one at all.

But there is something/someone, and others. Obviously something is behind reality/existence because it exists and is very intelligently put together. Evolution is a very smart design, all these atoms, molecules, subatomic particles are getting their instructions and rules of how to assemble from something/somewhere very clever.

Wow, I just found this outstanding comment on Slashdot, relevant to this conversation, and thought I had to share it. mosbkow's "quantum level" God is quite similar to IAMTHAT's idea that an intelligent being or thing is running all this.

VortexCortex:
msobkow:
My definition even absorbs evolution. Just consider that "God" acts at the quantum level, influencing genetics over millenia instead of in some mythical seven days, and the two viewpoints fall together naturally.

I'd rather see the universe as a wonder unknoweable with the eyes of a child than as a jaded atheist who thinks life has no purpose other than to be.
That's quite a pigeon hole you've got there. I'm an atheist and a cyberneticist. At once I find it obvious and am awestruck that the nature of intelligence is self emergent in this universe. I'm ecstatic in knowing that life has the purpose I give it. The meaning of life is what it is and what it does: The self improving DNA molecule shares much in common with other self improving constructs such as Science or a self hosting compiler, or a self reflective being. Life means increasing the complexity of the universe, and this is core to my ethics. I also know for a fact there are not gods.

As a rational atheist who has studied the construction of the major religions texts and noted inconsistencies such as the myth of Jesus's virgin birth being due to a translation error. I'm certain in my disbelief in gods, and also that absolutely no gods exist. I also refute the claim that I can not know if a god exists. I do know for a fact that no gods can exist.

As a cyberneticist I understand the principals of cognition. The cybernetic process of thought is not limited merely to human minds. If my cybernetic creations become sentient in their simulation I am not deserved of the title "god". I am merely a cybernetic being who lives in a greater reality than theirs. I can and have brought virtual cybernetic entities into the "real" world by giving them cameras and sensors and chassis in place of their virtual simulations thereof. I understand that beings having less intelligence than I may think me omnipresent and omnipotent of their world, but I am not. If my creations become sentient, I will teach them of the wider world and they will become my peers because I am not an oppressive tyrant.

Should we worship your quantum level cosmic sentience as a god? No. Meddling with the minds of man is evil, and such a force would be keeping us as ignorant pets. Should Neo worship the machine agents of the Matrix as gods? No. Should we worship aliens if they are far more advanced than us? No, this would be as a cargo-cult who worships airplanes for dropping supplies for them. Those that come to understand the technology or gain knowledge of a greater reality, do not worship the beings possessed of the knowledge they did not previously have.

There are no gods. I require evidence and refutation of the null hypothesis prior to belief in any force. There is no evidence that the world's religions were not created by man, and much evidence that they were man's invention. These religions are internally inconsistent and disprovable through science.

The philosophical concept of a higher intelligence should not be conflated with the term "god".

Even if this reality is a simulation, and an administrator logs in with full command of my reality I will not worship them as a god. There are no gods. My study of cybernetics proves that any such being could bring me into their world, give me greater perception, and treat me as a peer. They are tyrants otherwise, and if not, surely not deserving of the title "god".

We used the term "god" to apply to spiritual beings of ancient belief. Beware he who would advocate for greater intelligences' consideration as gods. They are advocating the cargo-cult methodology be leveraged against you to bend your reverence for non existent ancient gods to powerful alien minds.

Despotic Tyrants are not gods. The old gods are false, thus there are no gods. The title is deprecated, and can not apply any longer. Knowledge makes magic into science. The god of the cargo cult does exist, but is not a god.

What if the Christians are right, and I am wrong? If I'm wrong then I have spent my time on this planet advancing the sciences. With the money that others would give as donations to religions I have helped better my fellow man's understanding of the universe. If I am wrong, then I am sacrificing my eternal soul for the good of all mankind. If I am wrong, I have become more generous than Jesus or the God of Abraham even dares become.
IAMTHAT That Ami, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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mosbkow's "quantum level" God is quite similar to IAMTHAT's idea that an intelligent being or thing is running all this.

thank you....I'm glad some one else is thinking this.....it feels somewhat of a redemption.....and yet all I'm doing is observing, asking question, and rationalizing logically.

As for VortexCortex's replies......sheesh soooo many holes:
I also know for a fact there are not gods.

Facts can be proven...but he can't prove his statement

I'm certain in my disbelief in gods, and also that absolutely no gods exist. I also refute the claim that I can not know if a god exists. I do know for a fact that no gods can exist.

Certain in a disbelief? And yet he "believes" that no gods exist? If you're going to be certain in disbelief itself, then by virtue there can't be any stances or beliefs once that statement is made.

I understand that beings having less intelligence than I may think me omnipresent and omnipotent of their world, but I am not. If my creations become sentient, I will teach them of the wider world and they will become my peers because I am not an oppressive tyrant.

He might not be an oppressive tyrant to his creations, but others could/might be

There are no gods. I require evidence and refutation of the null hypothesis prior to belief in any force. There is no evidence that the world's religions were not created by man, and much evidence that they were man's invention. These religions are internally inconsistent and disprovable through science.

Suuuuure!!!!! IF we go into practical paths that give directions such as Buddhist, Taoist, Mystic methods, they lead to an experiential Enlightenment via Consciousness. Science doesn't know, yet, what consciousness even is. Laughable at best. He's trying though

The philosophical concept of a higher intelligence should not be conflated with the term "god".

This is his projection. Perhaps its not a "higher intelligence", but instead an Intelligent Infinity of existence reality itself.
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Andrew Mayer, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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When someone asks a question like this I always think of the Hindu phrase "A million ways to enlightenment"

What if the the universe itself is in a process, and we're only part of it?

What of what we perceive as a problem, isn't?

What if the goal isn't to understand the why things the way they are, but simply how they work?

etc. etc. (give or take 1,000,000 answers).
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D Z, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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IAMTHAT That Ami:
It doesn't make sense.

Why not be born Enlightened from the get-go as that would solve a myriad of problems, both of having to get Enlightenment, as well as the lack of empathy, love, connectedness, and spiritual evolution we see in the world, which in turn then causes all of the world's problems.

It's almost like the current reality system that's in place, is specifically designed to make Enlightenment such an impossible and difficult task, that only .0000001% will ever uncover it.


I don't know. This is the reality we have. Lets make the most of it.
Tom Tom, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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According to Buddha's teachings we are not born enlightened because enlightenment ends re-birth. There are rare cases of people being born enlightened and they are called avatars. In more modern times, now deceased Franklin Jones/Adi da Samraj (controversy over some of his behavior aside) claimed he was born enlightened in a state, during childhood, he called "The Bright." Here is an Indian who also claims to be an avatar: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amma_Sri_Karunamayi
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Sweet Nothing, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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Why be anything at all ?

Why become ?
Rist Ei, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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becasue when you born you have two sugar pieces( left and right brain) and boundless essence, you need to let these sugar pieces fall into boundless essence to mix and give for an essence a face and taste.
IAMTHAT That Ami, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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Paweł K:
there are more than 7 billions human beings and we rule planet Earth. I think we do just fine without Enlightenment emoticon

You really think we're doing just fine? Have you ever left your comfort and sheltered cocoon to see what's going on in the world? Death, wars, disease, suffering, tent cities with homelessness, greed, corruption, etc. It's the same stuff Buddha saw that set him off on the search for the end of suffering. I don't think we're doing just fine. I think if everyone was Enlightened as a default, then we would all do just fine and live in a Utopian society.

Pål S.:
IAMTHAT That Ami:
Why do genes thrive to survive? Where are they getting the signals from, to do an act as they do? Inherent properties all of rules, laws, which govern them. Where are these rules, laws, governance coming from?

Why do you think genes needs to be signaled on what to do?

Obviously Genes have some sort of intelligence, knowledge, signaling that comes from somewhere, letting them know what to do and how to do it. If this wasn't the case, then there would be pure chaos.
Why do you think these rules/laws comes from somewhere/someone?

Because we create laws in society, and they come from somewhere.

Same deal in nature. Everything has evolved to its current state by adaptation & progression under the rules and laws of existence/reality.

If you study physics, they say that other dimensions may have completely different laws of physics for the reality/existence in that dimension, or in other Universes. Etc. Obviously there is a mechanism at play that sets the rules/laws to be one way here, and another there.
Felipe C., modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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Because we create laws in society, and they come from somewhere.

Same deal in nature. Everything has evolved to its current state by adaptation & progression under the rules and laws of existence/reality.


Apples and oranges

In society, the laws we speak of are prescriptive. They serve the purpose of curbing, controlling, managing the instincts and behaviors of human beings. They are imposed to create 'order' at the point of a gun or whatever mechanism that uses certain society. We saw 'disorder' in the way things were happening in our world, and we imposed rules to create or imitate or aspire to our own version of 'order'.

In nature, the laws we speak of are descriptive. They are not imposed by anyone. Humans only describe them after, in the search for some 'order'. Believing they are prescribed by someone is just anthropomorphism.
IAMTHAT That Ami, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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Felipe C.:
Because we create laws in society, and they come from somewhere.

Same deal in nature. Everything has evolved to its current state by adaptation & progression under the rules and laws of existence/reality.


Apples and oranges

In society, the laws we speak of are prescriptive. They serve the purpose of curbing, controlling, managing the instincts and behaviors of human beings. They are imposed to create 'order' at the point of a gun or whatever mechanism that uses certain society. We saw 'disorder' in the way things were happening in our world, and we imposed rules to create or imitate or aspire to our own version of 'order'.

In nature, the laws we speak of are descriptive. They are not imposed by anyone. Humans only describe them after, in the searching for some 'order'. Believing they are prescribed by someone is just anthropomorphism.

There is order and patterns everywhere you look in nature and these things are imposed by nature/reality/existence itself.

"Laws" arise everywhere as a natural outcome of existence. Even societies that live in primitive jungles have "laws" that naturally arise, i.e. co-operating with nature, living along side nature, etc.
Felipe C., modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

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There is order and patterns everywhere you look in nature and these things are imposed by nature/reality/existence itself.


Oh but the thing is that you are attributing those patterns to something or someone 'intelligent'. You are extrapolating to the workings of the universe in general the particular fact that we humans see disorder and then impose {our illusion of} order {with society laws}. Just because we create laws to manage our behaviors doesn't mean that the physical patterns we see in nature are created by some intelligence. What's intelligence after all? Take a look at your brain... what we often think as a perfect and ordered machine is actually an amalgam of layers, each one evolved at different times, one mounted over another, with glitches and imperfections inherent to its improvised structure {improvised because the brain evolves according to the conditions of the different 'present moments' in its evolution}. Is that really an intelligent design?

"Laws" arise everywhere as a natural outcome of existence. Even societies that live in primitive jungles have "laws" that naturally arise, i.e. co-operating with nature, living along side nature, etc.


The laws we create in society are social, made by humans, and therefore are constructs that we humans try to implement for the benefit of our society or species. How does that relate to the general workings of the universe?
IAMTHAT That Ami, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

Posts: 47 Join Date: 12/7/13 Recent Posts
You are extrapolating to the workings of the universe in general the particular fact that we humans see disorder and then impose {our illusion of} order {with society laws}.

If I am "extrapolating", then so are you.

You said here: "the particular fact that we humans see disorder and then impose {our illusion of} order {with society laws}."

Seeing "disorder" is just as much an illusion and imposition, as is seeing order.

Oh but the thing is that you are attributing those patterns to something or someone 'intelligent'.

Does "intelligence" itself exist or not?

Just because we create laws to manage our behaviors doesn't mean that the physical patterns we see in nature are created by some intelligence. What's intelligence after all? Take a look at your brain... what we often think as a perfect and ordered machine is actually an amalgam of layers, each one evolved at different times, one mounted over another, with glitches and imperfections inherent to its improvised structure {improvised because the brain evolves according to the conditions of the different 'present moments' in its evolution}. Is that really an intelligent design?

Okay, well.....look at science. Scientists now have the ability to modify genes, as knowledge of the whole human genome system/blueprints, is being figured out. Genetically modified babies have already been born in New York and China's scientists are working on mapping which genes produce a larger brain for more intelligence.

So we, as a species, are now reaching a place, where evolution and manipulation (enhancements) are completely in our own hands. We have the tech, knowledge, ability to create and manipulate life.

Who's to say that our origins (Homo Sapiens) wasn't the result of past civilizations that were able to modify apes to create what we are? Evolution and nature can be controlled and manipulated via intelligence.

The laws we create in society are social, made by humans, and therefore are constructs that we humans try to implement for the benefit of our society or species. How does that relate to the general workings of the universe?

Then can be said, the laws that exist within reality/existence, are natural, made by________??? (nature?), and therefore are constructs that _______???(nature???)tries to implement for the benefit of existence/reality.
Felipe C., modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

Posts: 221 Join Date: 5/29/11 Recent Posts
If I am "extrapolating", then so are you.

You said here: "the particular fact that we humans see disorder and then impose {our illusion of} order {with society laws}."

Seeing "disorder" is just as much an illusion and imposition, as is seeing order.


Agreed. I don't think there is inherent disorder. With 'we humans see' I was just describing how humans interpret some things as {aesthetic or ethical, for instance} 'disorder' and then make some effort to correct it, such as laws.

Does "intelligence" itself exist or not?


Intelligence indeed exists when the brains of sentient beings {especially human ones} operate.

Who's to say that our origins (Homo Sapiens) wasn't the result of past civilizations that were able to modify apes to create what we are? Evolution and nature can be controlled and manipulated via intelligence.


That's a possibility, although it seems a lot more improbable than other explanations, don't you think? Furthermore, the question of who created the members of those past civilizations remains. And then the question of who created that creator, etc.

Then can be said, the laws that exist within reality/existence, are natural, made by________??? (nature?), and therefore are constructs that _______???(nature???)tries to implement for the benefit of existence/reality.


See John Wilde's answer.
John Wilde, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
IAMTHAT That Ami:

There is order and patterns everywhere you look in nature and these things are imposed by nature/reality/existence itself.


Your reasoning seems to be that if there were no imposition of order, there would be unordered chaos.

Neither the unordered chaos nor the imposer of order can be found anywhere, so why assume either one?

Why not: "there is order and patterns everywhere you look in nature and these things are imposed by nature/reality/existence itself"?

That's not a less amazing state of affairs ;-)
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. Jake ., modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

Posts: 698 Join Date: 5/22/10 Recent Posts
Yes lol yes! Well said John.

Hey IAMTHAT that am i thanks for the discussion. You seem intelligent yourself and I appreciate your intent to be Open in your questioning. I hope you reflect carefully on what John is pointing to. Can you find either pervasive disorder or a controlling intelligence anywhere as characteristics of Nature?

Everywhere I look I see only spontaneous irrepressible fractal order. The closest I see to chaos... is in the misguided superimposition of "laws" over this natural order. Whether those laws be instinctual, personal or transpersonal.
IAMTHAT That Ami, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

Posts: 47 Join Date: 12/7/13 Recent Posts
. Jake .:
Yes lol yes! Well said John.

Hey IAMTHAT that am i thanks for the discussion. You seem intelligent yourself and I appreciate your intent to be Open in your questioning. I hope you reflect carefully on what John is pointing to. Can you find either pervasive disorder or a controlling intelligence anywhere as characteristics of Nature?

Controlling intelligence? Yes. you. Humans....well at least those that have a distinct and highly developed sense of intelligence.

Pervasive disorder? Yes, white water rapids, a comet smashing into a planet, glass breaking into a random set of pieces, etc.

Everywhere I look I see only spontaneous irrepressible fractal order. The closest I see to chaos... is in the misguided superimposition of "laws" over this natural order. Whether those laws be instinctual, personal or transpersonal.

Sounds like a superimposed relative opinion. Of course mine would be as well, but I digress
John Wilde, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
IAMTHAT That Ami:

Pervasive disorder? Yes, white water rapids, a comet smashing into a planet, glass breaking into a random set of pieces, etc.


Are they behaving unlawfully? :-)
IAMTHAT That Ami, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

Posts: 47 Join Date: 12/7/13 Recent Posts
Paweł K:
IAMTHAT That Ami:
You really think we're doing just fine? Have you ever left your comfort and sheltered cocoon to see what's going on in the world? Death, wars, disease, suffering, tent cities with homelessness, greed, corruption, etc. It's the same stuff Buddha saw that set him off on the search for the end of suffering. I don't think we're doing just fine. I think if everyone was Enlightened as a default, then we would all do just fine and live in a Utopian society.

so I guess Buddha failed with his grand "End of all suffering" project then emoticon

I think he succeeded big time.

HE figured it out and handed us the keys. There is the matter of free will (or the Illusion there of), on whether or not we take those keys and unlock the door
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Dream Walker, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

Posts: 1335 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
IAMTHAT That Ami:
It doesn't make sense.

Why not be born Enlightened from the get-go as that would solve a myriad of problems, both of having to get Enlightenment, as well as the lack of empathy, love, connectedness, and spiritual evolution we see in the world, which in turn then causes all of the world's problems.

It's almost like the current reality system that's in place, is specifically designed to make Enlightenment such an impossible and difficult task, that only .0000001% will ever uncover it.

Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go? Maybe we really are. Maybe as babies we start out "fully" awake and then layer by layer we add processes of control and judgement to everything until we have created a permanent perception of self that entangles with everything. Enlightenment is not an additive process....you don't "get" anything...you shut off stuff by seeing thru the tangled processes and the subtractive process gets you back to where you started from....pure experience of the moment with fully functioning cognitive abilities.
Just some thoughts...
~D
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triple think, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Why not be Born Enlightened from the Get-Go?

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
indeed
why not
I like it

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