Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle [Bruno Loff] [MIGRATE]

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Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle [Bruno Loff] [MIGRATE]

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Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle [Bruno Loff]


Bruno Loff - 2014-04-28 09:57:00 - Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

http://www.tricycle.com/blog/meditation-nation

Given the widespread belief that meditation practice is scientifically certified to be good for just about everything, the results of a recent major analysis of the research might come as some surprise. Conducted by the Association for Health and Research Quality (AHRQ)óa government organization that oversees standards of researchóthe meta-study found only moderate evidence for the alleviation of anxiety, depression, and pain, and low to insufficient evidence to suggest that meditation relieved stress, improved mood, attention, or mental-health-related quality of life, or had a substantial impact on substance use, eating habits, sleep, or weight. It looks like the scientific evidence for the benefits of meditation arenít as solid as many might claim.


I liked it a lot.

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Martin Potter - 2014-04-28 13:07:24 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Thank you for the link, great article. Finally someone talking such sense and clarity about this stuff... took so long for that to happen!

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Change A. - 2014-04-28 13:27:51 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

In the buddhadharma, meditation is never used to promote sleep. It is for waking up. Sleep is a hindrance.
 

I wonder if Britton understands what "waking up" means in buddhadharma?

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Ian And - 2014-04-28 15:45:40 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Bruno Loff:

Given the widespread belief that meditation practice is scientifically certified to be good for just about everything, the results of a recent major analysis of the research might come as some surprise. Conducted by the Association for Health and Research Quality (AHRQ)ó

a government organization that oversees standards of researchó

This is as far as I needed to read. If the government is preaching this blather, that's pretty much all you need to ignore this rot gut. But of course, the ignorant will lap it up. 


the meta-study found only moderate evidence for the alleviation of anxiety, depression, and pain, and low to insufficient evidence to suggest that meditation relieved stress, improved mood, attention, or mental-health-related quality of life, or had a substantial impact on substance use, eating habits, sleep, or weight. It looks like the scientific evidence for the benefits of meditation arenít as solid as many might claim.

Typical superficial pronouncement from a government that considers you (the citizen) its enemy. Anyone who bothers to study and actually practice the Buddha's Dhamma knows different. It takes more than just knowledge about meditation for the training to have a positive effect. You have to work at it; the realizations don't come easy. That is, until you get past a certain point in the progression. Then you see, as if with crystal clarity, what Gotama was talking about. 

Bruno Loff:

I liked it a lot.

Liked what a lot? The article? Pure government propaganda. You buy into it at your own risk.

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Dream Walker - 2014-04-28 16:25:01 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Bruno Loff:
http://www.tricycle.com/blog/meditation-nation
I liked it a lot.


"In a study Iím doing on the ìVarieties of Contemplative Experience,î people are having all kinds of unexpected meditation effects, and itís scaring the hell out of them. Many of the meditators in my studies in clinical settings are reporting classic meditation side effects like depersonalization. De-repression of traumatic memories is another really common one. People have all this energy running through them; they are having spasms and involuntary movements; they are seeing lights. They check themselves into psychiatric hospitals. Some of the people Iíve seen in my study come from a health and medicine framework and are not Buddhist, and yet they are reporting meditation effects that are well documented in Buddhist texts. But these are not well documented in the scientific literature because nobody is asking about them. Thatís the chasm I am trying to bridge."

Good stuff...too bad there is no mention to the maps and dark night. Good as far as it went thought.

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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem - 2014-04-28 16:27:59 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Ian did you actually read the entire article before commenting on it? You seem to have only quoted the snippet that Bruno quoted.

The gist of the article is that if all you want to do is relax and/or sleep better and/or feel better about yourself as a person, and you start meditating, you might be in for an unpleasant surprise as something quite different will start happening:
[...] people are having all kinds of unexpected meditation effects, and itís scaring the hell out of them. Many of the meditators in my studies in clinical settings are reporting classic meditation side effects like depersonalization. De-repression of traumatic memories is another really common one. People have all this energy running through them; they are having spasms and involuntary movements; they are seeing lights. They check themselves into psychiatric hospitals. Some of the people Iíve seen in my study come from a health and medicine framework and are not Buddhist, and yet they are reporting meditation effects that are well documented in Buddhist texts. But these are not well documented in the scientific literature because nobody is asking about them.

Do you disagree?

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Psi Phi - 2014-04-28 18:49:02 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Interesting article:  but...

To investigate further, investigate:

What type of meditation?  What method?  Was it Right Concentration?  Doubt it , not in 8 weeks, not knowing how long the subjects "meditated".  If someone is "meditating" but isn't in jhana they are practicing a method and not really in Right Concentration.  So why would anyone expect a change, when the subject isn't actually meditating yet?

Second investgation, if the subjects were practicing insight methods, that's more like contemplation, and not a traditional meditation, (as found in Ancient Yoga) and without support or a path the insights that arise would indeed be very troubling, for they would arise without any understanding. 

Is there a link anywhere to the actual study?  Like how long people were meditating, what were their brain waves were they in theta waves even , etc.  Were they just average people sitting for 30 minutes a day "meditating",  School children have to sit all day in their chairs and there isn't much behavioral change there either.

I'm sure Willoughby Britton knows how to do research, but ...  With Science comes scrutiny

Just some thoughts.  

Article does seem to give credulity (sp) to the need for a well balanced path of mental training, and not just to go diving willy nilly head first into the depths of consciousness, might find the boogie man

Good subject Bruno

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Ian And - 2014-04-29 00:00:29 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Ian did you actually read the entire article before commenting on it? You seem to have only quoted the snippet that Bruno quoted.

I only commented on the snippet that Bruno quoted. 

And the implied denigration about meditation it is pushing (or seeming to push). That's all.

I thought I made that clear when I wrote: "This is as far as I needed to read."

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Richard Zen - 2014-04-29 00:11:29 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

I think it's an interesting article especially if you look at early meditation practice but the reality is that it took me months to get to the 1st jhana and years to get to equanimity.  I'm still looking at advanced noticings of any preferences in dualism and how it can affect stress.  I seriously doubt the test subjects are working with insights from Nagarjuna.  You can have stress about your meditation practice.  Isn't "meditating to get happy" a clinging already?  When people start meditation there are SO MANY ridiculous beliefs and expectations and working through that can be unpleasant if results are different than what you wanted.

My stress level since starting meditation in 2007 is massively reduced.  I don't have IBS.  My level of petty irritations is also mostly reduced.  Many of my anxiety reactions in the chest I used to have when dealing with difficult people are still there but the volume and destructiveness is only a small percentage of what I used to feel.

Here's an example of my early days into insight practice after doing concentration practices:

Job Interview and noting

I also doubt the subtlety of practice instructions and people being able to do them properly.  If the rates of success in meditation in retreat settings are to be counted then most people flounder and do very little with the practice.  Only a small percentage of people will stick it out, continue practicing, asking questions, and refining their views.  

IMHO meditation is not to be done unless people are willing to go quite far into it.  More talk of withdrawal symptoms should be included in marketing so that people know upfront that it will be a bumpy ride.

For long-time meditators it will be a superficial article, but for beginners it at least reminds them that lots of personal stuff will get kicked up and it's important to know that some of your life will get impacted for an extended period of time.

Leigh Brasington Interview

In the above interview she talks about withdrawal symptoms but also mentions that people shouldn't give up the practice.

I'm sure there's a middle ground in that meditation is not a panacea for all problems but it can deal with existential thinking that can cause too much anxiety.

I'd also like to see anxiety tests for long-time meditators compared to normal people and especially compared to anxious types.  Anxious types and people with bad habits tend to want meditation and pursue it out of a desire.  Normal well-adjusted happy people don't need to meditate.

I do echo her in that scientists and Buddhist meditators should work together more and dispel myths but I think Daniel is doing a better job with arguing about how much fetters are attenuated in reality versus religious documents.  His descriptions of personally meeting highly attained meditators and how they manifest emotional facial expressions still can dispel the Spock stereotypes.

Don't give up people!

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tom moylan - 2014-04-29 09:42:12 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Ha!  I have to admit to sharing Ian's exact response when reading the "government" study in the preamble. Part of my awakening has included an extreme disregard for programming in many areas, medical, societal and esp. governmental.

at some point when one realizes that one is reacting to a template instead of the reality presenting itself on its own terms one learns to drop that bad habit.  whether meditation objects or indoctrinational myths, the principle is the same.  i am constantly checking to see whether what i believe is based on core principles filtered through reason or just generally accepted propositions.

this article was good. it has two basic points.  one is that science itself cannot be taken as a single monumental entity but has shades of certainty and levels of quality which can vary dependent upon what is asked and up to what conclusions are drawn from the process. the second is the essential point of the article and is: 'is meditation always helpful'

Britton's answers are clear and unambiguous.  she says, "it depends".

I like Richard Zen's response.

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Bruno Loff - 2014-04-29 10:22:03 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Ian And:

Bruno Loff:

I liked it a lot.

Liked what a lot? The article? Pure government propaganda. You buy into it at your own risk.


You sure know a lot about the article you didn't read... Is that one of the powers that comes from so many years of practice?

You just reminded me of myself at my worst... bigotry is well-sought commodity for its certainty-producing qualities emoticon

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Ian And - 2014-04-29 16:16:49 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Bruno Loff:
Ian And:

Bruno Loff:

I liked it a lot.

Liked what a lot? The article? Pure government propaganda. You buy into it at your own risk.


You sure know a lot about the article you didn't read... Is that one of the powers that comes from so many years of practice?

You just reminded me of myself at my worst... bigotry is well-sought commodity for its certainty-producing qualities emoticon

Relax, Bruno. Get down off your high horse. 

The comment was regrettably the result of a misunderstanding. My misunderstanding. No need to sling mud in a knee jerk reaction.

The comment obviously does not apply. I apologize if your fragile ego was bruised by it. Please disregard it, put it out of your mind, and get on with your life.

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Bruno Loff - 2014-04-29 21:12:26 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Ian And:
The comment was regrettably the result of a misunderstanding. My misunderstanding.


Good you can admit to being wrong, even if in such a sideway manner. This is the only noble part of your otherwise poor reply.

You accuse me of being on a high horse even after my own admission of being an occasional biggot? If I confess to the same flaw I accuse you of, how can that possibly be classified as being on a high horse?!

And after accusing me of being on a high horse you proceed to patronizingly apologize for bruising my fragile ego?! Doesn't that tickle your self-contradiction alarm, even if just a little bit?!

I've been reading your posts for years and never read anything remotely like this... Are you having a bad day or something?

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sawfoot _ - 2014-04-29 22:27:59 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Bruno, I think its time for you to move on. You have your life ahead of you. You don't want your entire rest of your life defined by this one comment on a forum post. Don't try to live in the last. Forget the past. Accept it as being shockingly uncharacteristic and bizarre behaviour the like of which has never ever been seen before, that is most likely brought upon by some temporary malady. Think about the future. For yourself and for humanity. Take a chill pill. Enjoy life. JUST TRY TO RELAX!!!!!! Fall apart in my backyard. Don't go around slinging mud with those jerky knees of yours. Follow the example of the Lord Buddha. And don't pick the prickly pear by the paw.
Try to use the claw.

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Ian And - 2014-04-30 05:07:59 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain

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sawfoot _ - 2014-04-30 08:43:03 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Ian And:
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain


It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain

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Nikolai . - 2014-04-30 08:59:00 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Nikolai.:
sawfoot _:
Ian And:
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain


It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain


It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain

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sawfoot _ - 2014-04-30 09:45:27 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Nikolai.:
sawfoot _:
Ian And:
Nikolai .:
sawfoot _:
Ian And:
Nikolai .:
sawfoot _:
Ian And:
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain


It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain


It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain


It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain


Just to save everyone a little time.

By the way, I heard a nice quote the other day and I think it is really opportune to mention it here. It goes a little something like this:

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
ó Mark Twain

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Bruno Loff - 2014-04-30 10:05:21 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

To think I once considered asking you for guidance for a meditation retreat...

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Nikolai . - 2014-04-30 10:51:16 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Bruno Loff:
To think I once considered asking you for guidance for a meditation retreat...



"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured."
Mark Twain

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Jane Laurel Carrington - 2014-04-30 12:42:07 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

May all beings be peaceful and happy. May they be safe and protected. May they live with ease, and with joy.

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tom moylan - 2014-04-30 14:55:08 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

I have really good reasons to respect every one of the posters in this thread.  Including Mark Twain.  you have all helped me immensely in the past.and I look forward to your future aid.

tom

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Bruno Loff - 2014-04-30 15:54:36 - RE: Interview Willoughby Britton at Trycicle

Nikolai .:
Bruno Loff:
To think I once considered asking you for guidance for a meditation retreat...



"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured."
Mark Twain


"It is my belief that nearly any invented quotation, played with confidence, stands a good chance to deceive."
Mark Twain

To me, there seems to be zero anger from my side. I did feel surprised, and then shocked, at Ian's various replies, I did use sarcasm to voice criticism, but I felt no anger. Why did you think I did?

Though it does inform me of what can still coexist with decades of top-grade meditation practice. Having read Daniel's book, I should know this already, but for some reason it always comes as a surprise when a long-time meditator behaves like this.

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