What are we?

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Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 6/21/14 10:28 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/21/14 10:28 PM

What are we?

Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts
Perhaps, the reality is that we are all like snowflakes, pretty much the same, not one snowflake really anymore special than the next, all made of the same stuff, just different intricate patterns, but basically the same, 

Oh, and we are all melting, eventually to dissolve back into the Universe...

So, is this all we are, all we ever were?
This Good Self, modified 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 3:56 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 3:51 AM

RE: What are we?

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
On the level of relativity (separation, egohood, individuality), we are very different.  There are those with exceptional talents, attributes, achievements, contacts and lifestyles and there are those without any of the above.  This is everyday mode-of-living for me and probably 99.999% of the planet.  This mode is fine until that sense of separation grows to the point where it is uncomfortable all the time.

On the Absolute level (if there is one, I have no idea), it's not so much that we are not special, more that we never existed as individuals in the first place.  It was a very elaborate dream.  That's what they say, and who knows if that's true until it's happened? 

At some point you pick a teacher and take a leap of faith.  The seeker does have a huge dilemma however.  To seek anything is to reinforce the idea of a separate self.  There can't be a 'sought' without a self to seek it.  No effort can be made to achieve enlightenment without simultaneously reinforcing the idea of the separate self.  Huge dilemma!
M C, modified 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 4:20 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 4:18 AM

RE: What are we?

Posts: 116 Join Date: 2/27/13 Recent Posts
No effort can be made to achieve enlightenment without simultaneously reinforcing the idea of the separate self. 

What are some good ways to approach this dilemma (or paradox)?
M C, modified 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 5:08 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 4:46 AM

RE: What are we?

Posts: 116 Join Date: 2/27/13 Recent Posts
I think I'm more comfortable with calling it a paradox. A dilemma implies to me a difficult choice between two things that are both undesirable.

Whereas paradox implies a statement or phrase that negates itself. Something that is self contradictory. Based on what you correctly said, "to seek enlightenment" fits that description.

What we call it is not that important, but let's just say "to seek enlightenment" contradicts itself.

If practice is to experience reality as it is, maybe just sit with this reality...
This Good Self, modified 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 5:25 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 5:25 AM

RE: What are we?

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
That might work so long as there's a complete abandonment of intent and purpose.  And then even the abandonment would need to be done without purpose or aim.  I'll try it.

"Dilemma" works ok for me.  There are two untenable options -  1) working towards enlightenment (a paradox)  and    2) Not working towards enlightenment.  The knack might be found in the 3rd option.
M C, modified 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 5:59 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 5:44 AM

RE: What are we?

Posts: 116 Join Date: 2/27/13 Recent Posts
C C C:
"Dilemma" works ok for me.  There are two untenable options -  1) working towards enlightenment (a paradox)  and    2) Not working towards enlightenment.  The knack might be found in the 3rd option.

I get it now.

And yes, letting go of purpose seems key. In my limited experience I'm finding it helpful to first recognize what purpose is, notice it arise etc. If you know what purpose is, you also know that when you take it out what remains is non-purpose...
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Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 8:44 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 8:44 AM

RE: What are we?

Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts
Psi Phi:
Perhaps, the reality is that we are all like snowflakes, pretty much the same, not one snowflake really anymore special than the next, all made of the same stuff, just different intricate patterns, but basically the same, 

Oh, and we are all melting, eventually to dissolve back into the Universe...

So, is this all we are, all we ever were?

So, if this is really all we are, universe stuff coming together and falling apart, endlessly and cyclic, then why does  the mind have a tendency to fight and resist the true nature of things?  The mind wants to survive, but this is absurd, it is already surviving, the mind can't have more surviving, yet the craving for existence lingers.  Is that a dilemma or a paradox?  And if the mind lets go of this wish and craving to survive, since it already has it, then what, freedom, liberation?  Attainment of Nothing.  

Rush Freewill  "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

"Freewill"

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance

A planet of play things
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
'The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign...'
Blame is better to give than receive

[Chorus:]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill

There are those who think
That they were dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren't born in Lotusland

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate



Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet



http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/rush/freewill.html
deleted deleted, modified 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 11:03 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 10:37 AM

RE: What are we?

Posts: 34 Join Date: 6/20/14 Recent Posts
Here is a way to think about it.

We start as a wheel. And over time we perfect the wheel, we make it rounder, smoother, less friction and we find we can do all sorts of fun things with it.

And then we discover an axel. And two wheels together, and as we refine our two wheels and an axel we discover we can move large objects from point A to point B much easier.

And then we discover the Cart. And over time we refine our cart and add oxen and mules and horses to do the work for us and now we can carry a lot of stuff from point a to point B.

And then we discover the horseless carriage, and over time we perfect it and now we can travel large distances in short times and the effort to do so is almost nothing.

And then we discover the plane and over time we perfect it and now we can fly in space and cover even greater distances than we could before.

And then we discover the space ship and over time we perfect it and now we are unbound by the earth's gravity and we can visit other planets and other solar systems.

And then we discover pure freedom, and over time we perfect it and we are no longer bound by this universe, or this solar system and we discover multiworlds and endless multiple histories.

And eventually we lose the wheel, and the axel and the cart, and the horseless carriage and the plane and the spaceship and the freedom and then we are somewhere else entirely.

the Buddha spun a fucking big wheel.

edited to add: I don't believe we can go from being the wheel to spaceship in one lifetime any more than we went from the discovery of the wheel to the spaceship in one lifetime. The perfection of these things takes many many lifetimes. You decide where you are: wheel or plane or further along. And you go from there.
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Dream Walker, modified 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 12:57 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 12:57 PM

RE: What are we?

Posts: 1726 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
We are allegories trapped in analogies.emoticon

Using the controlling aspect of the mind to delete the the controlling aspect of the mind....hmmm That is a sticky wicket.
I guess we could try to see these controlling aspects as clearly as possible.
I think about the Binding problem and wonder to myself if the stress center of the brain has been made into the switchboard that regulates what information reaches consciousness. The information seems to get a wrapping of stress by this unnecessary fight or flight system being in charge. Looking at the 3 characteristics of reality in real time seems to have some ability to rewire this system layer by layer.
So we are using the controlling system to choose a narrow subset of information that implies the controlling itself. Then we let go of even that.
Just some thoughts,
~D
John Wilde, modified 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 5:45 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/22/14 5:44 PM

RE: What are we?

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
Dream Walker:
We are allegories trapped in analogies.emoticon

Using the controlling aspect of the mind to delete the the controlling aspect of the mind....hmmm That is a sticky wicket.
I guess we could try to see these controlling aspects as clearly as possible.
I think about the Binding problem and wonder to myself if the stress center of the brain has been made into the switchboard that regulates what information reaches consciousness. The information seems to get a wrapping of stress by this unnecessary fight or flight system being in charge. Looking at the 3 characteristics of reality in real time seems to have some ability to rewire this system layer by layer.
So we are using the controlling system to choose a narrow subset of information that implies the controlling itself. Then we let go of even that.
Just some thoughts,
~D

Good thoughts. But you can't really know whether you're filtering information until you're no longer doing it... and any device we use to alter or undermine the default filtering process (eg. bare awareness + 3Cs, or all-is-Consciousness) is itself a filter. I don't see any way to step outside the relativistic effects of practice that Dan talked about in his interview with Rick Archer. What you end up seeing is inevitably partly determined by where and how you choose to look... which leads to all sorts of dilemmas and controversies, not just about efficacy but about truth vs soteriology, etc.
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Dream Walker, modified 9 Years ago at 6/23/14 10:34 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/23/14 10:34 AM

RE: What are we?

Posts: 1726 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
John Wilde:
Dream Walker:
We are allegories trapped in analogies.emoticon

Using the controlling aspect of the mind to delete the the controlling aspect of the mind....hmmm That is a sticky wicket.
I guess we could try to see these controlling aspects as clearly as possible.
I think about the Binding problem and wonder to myself if the stress center of the brain has been made into the switchboard that regulates what information reaches consciousness. The information seems to get a wrapping of stress by this unnecessary fight or flight system being in charge. Looking at the 3 characteristics of reality in real time seems to have some ability to rewire this system layer by layer.
So we are using the controlling system to choose a narrow subset of information that implies the controlling itself. Then we let go of even that.
Just some thoughts,
~D

Good thoughts. But you can't really know whether you're filtering information until you're no longer doing it... and any device we use to alter or undermine the default filtering process (eg. bare awareness + 3Cs, or all-is-Consciousness) is itself a filter. I don't see any way to step outside the relativistic effects of practice that Dan talked about in his interview with Rick Archer. What you end up seeing is inevitably partly determined by where and how you choose to look... which leads to all sorts of dilemmas and controversies, not just about efficacy but about truth vs soteriology, etc.
What do you see as the dilemmas and controversies?  Are there categories you would like to chat about...I'm interested in this. What relativistic effects of practice do you see?
Probably deserves it's own thread. Gonna start one.
~D
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/23/14 11:43 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/23/14 11:43 AM

RE: What are we?

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
Do we even have the consciousness in this state to answer such a question?  When you dream, how many of them can you remember?  When you remember, how much do you remember?  Ever notice how after some profound dream, you can only really remember a small shadow of what it meant to you during the dream and how it doesn't translate well to waking consciousness?  When in waking consciousness, one might be lucky to remember a few percent of what made sense during the dream and you remember even less of your childhood or even what you did yesterday.  We are like microbes trying to understand a skyscraper.  From this view, we are too small to see the big picture.  Still, it's fun to try though!  ;-P
-Eva
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Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 6/23/14 2:44 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/23/14 2:44 PM

RE: What are we?

Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts
Eva M Nie:
Do we even have the consciousness in this state to answer such a question?  When you dream, how many of them can you remember?  When you remember, how much do you remember?  Ever notice how after some profound dream, you can only really remember a small shadow of what it meant to you during the dream and how it doesn't translate well to waking consciousness?  When in waking consciousness, one might be lucky to remember a few percent of what made sense during the dream and you remember even less of your childhood or even what you did yesterday.  We are like microbes trying to understand a skyscraper.  From this view, we are too small to see the big picture.  Still, it's fun to try though!  ;-P
-Eva
Yes, you nailed part of the problem on the head!  Mostly, people will think they know what is going on, but, we only "sense" a small part of the universe, and of that small fraction, we are only aware of a fraction of that, and from that , most people "believe" they know what is going on.

When we dream , how much of the dream do we remember?  Not much , huh?  And is this dreaming going on in the background of the mind even as we speak?  I mean the parts of the brain that are dreaming are still there, still living.  Are there parts of the Mind that don't know that there is an "out there" out there, or is there really an "out there", since it is all happening in our minds.  

Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said, "The flag is moving."The other said, "The wind is moving."The Sixth Patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them, "Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving."

So too, the dreaming part of the mind , maybe percieves "it's" reality is real, and only catches fragments of the "awake" consciousness and considers them to be a dream.

I like your analogy "like a microbe trying to understand a skyscraper".  I've thought of it like a caterpillar moving across a sidewalk, aware of what it's senses are picking up, and thinking that is all there is to reality.  (Not that caterpillars, can think or anything, Anthromorphizing is another ill-fitted human trait.) But fun to think about.

Bryan

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