dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

grant, modified 9 Years ago at 8/1/14 11:12 AM
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dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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Because dzogchen is said not to be a religion but a state could it be possible to miggle it with the new age religion? 

The reason I ask your opinion on this is because I'm concerned in having faith in twin flames and soul mates but I keep thinking that your consort is none other than your twin flame because for me anyways on one occasion I had an outerbody experience and tried connecting to my soulmate this is when the sex begun this is when my consort yoga took off with what feels like real sex with a visualized yidam. 

Also my togal visions have been all about god, Jesus angels and fighting demons. I've been practicing dzogchen going on 12 years now every since I separated my subtle body from my physical body using a clever lucid dreaming technique. 

I'm in the new third vision now for a couple months now which I know because of the display of the 42 peaceful Buddhas and 60 wrathful herukas after having a vision of the dyhani Buddhas Buddha palaces. I went through the first vision realized emptyness and years later around 2011 2012 I entered into the second vision and I also hear voices which developed in a botch attempt to activate the unused portions of my brain around the time I separated my subtle body.

Now I grew up catholic and went to bible school and was a alter server at church on Sundays so I've always believed in a soul. How many of you out there believe in a soul?  I mean some say your suppose to meditate on having a soul and when it gets too much meditate on the opposite and if you think about it the trikaya is like Plato's soul. The dharmakaya the wisdom body of the soul the shambhokaya the enjoyment and the nirmakaya where the soul is stored and the shambhogakaya is said to be without begining or end so in other words permanent. I see the trikaya and Plato's soul to be one in the same. And god fits in the Buddhist cosmology with the highest form realm with only one god. I'm just so confused sometimes I was praying to god a couple months ago and was asking him to deliver my twin flame to me in the apartment next door as it was empty because I have a connection to my twin but I wasn't in contact with her and right after I said amen something took my mind over and gave me a description of a girl. A couple days later a girl matching that description moved in. I'm torn because she has a bf and we don't talk. She says he's a dooche bag too. 

If there's one thing I have is faith. Two separate occasions I used siddhis randomly and I spent 2 years touring the various hells and meeting jesus and killing demons for him to help out and it was just bugging me. Killing demons (doing trecko). And now I'm at a point where I'm in the natural state and I still have these experiences with this vagina melting on me and this tongue flick every once in awhile randomly and the sex.  I'm conflicted in with a moral decision to believe in the soul and the teachings which so many accept. In the end of the day a yidam is a yidam but still thinking about someone out there loving me and having sex with me without touching me is hard to imagine.

Another thing I'm conflicted with are my voices they are the sweetest group of people I could ever meet. They read to me and monologue because since realizing emptiness u have no thoughts anymore they are like a disability aid reading to the mute. We don't have conversations much but I dunno maybe its the new age concept of soul groups that has me stuck I keep thinking this is my soul group and I'm home but when I enter into the fourth vision phenomena will stop and I won't have to voices and I'm questioning whether I'll have my twin flame there too. I mean what doea it all mean. A soul group dedicated to making me enlightened and a twin flame that loves me. But when I look around I'm all alone with no friends and no mate by my side. Its depressing that they are not here with me and only in spirit. What's even more surprising is that my various voices came together to help me write this as if I were. But it hits the spot.

I was curious also we it her dzogchen view was the holographic universe. It makes sense to me. Also when I plug my ears I can hear the voices. And sometimes when I lay down in bed a white light comes over me and loves me like only a twin flame could do.

Everyone I know barely believes in god let alone things like twin flame sex siddhis and the supernatural like I do so I'm often stuck feeling as though I don't matter and my opinions don't count. I need something for the final push I need to reenfornce my faith for the final pushto the fourth vision but not only am I scared to succeed I'm scared to fail too. A part of m doesn't want to lose the voices because sadly they are the only friend I have other than one person that I get coffee with. But dont get me wrong there's a lot of love in my group. Its just that I've been told for so long that my expeirneces aren't valid that I need to take my pills and shut up. That enlightenment is unreal or an unrealistic goal that I can't ammont to that because this or that. Why does everyone have this ignorance bubble around them and everything they do. Why do the ones who focus on the spirit get viewed as unrealistic or cooky. Bottom line I need  a friend that believes in me and what I'm doing. Or affirmation that I'm on the right path. My whole life has been about the spirit and enlightenment. But I'm left with a lack of details scientificly and spiritually.

Does anyone care or am I still in this alone?
Jeff Grove, modified 9 Years ago at 8/1/14 6:45 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/1/14 4:52 PM

RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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Can you explain more about  these visions and there progression,
Are these visions happening inside thigles,
Could you make them light up in intensity
how large is the main thigle if you are in your third vision
Was there a pattern to the first vision
Any complimentary colours and groupings, how they relate to the elements
What did you do with the squiggles,
What do you see when you look at people, trees, your hands,
How do you practice thogal,
do you have acess to the yeshe lama
Any wang, lung
Did you practice anuyoga
Did you practice rushen
Any breath practices
Killing demons during trekchod, what is your practice of trekchod
Apologies for all the questions, I'm trying workout whether I can help
Enlightenment is real and achievable you will only get there by working at it
Those people that say otherwise wouldn't know cause that don't try
Jeff Grove, modified 9 Years ago at 8/1/14 8:41 PM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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The beautiful thing about thodgal is that it is a shaminist type practice found all over the world, western European mysticism has its own version, look at Australian aboriginal art and Egypt, the Tibetans probably  ripped it off from northern India ,its found in shaivism, then you have bon,etc. So typically the visions will have some cultural content. This is a progression through the layers of consciousness. 
Your reality is bardo this very life
There is a lot of clinging you should get back to basics, reading sutra,,contemplating, insight practices
Here is the yeshe lama, it's restricted so the purist will tell you that it's a quick trip to hell, but that's what I love about the public domian
It should help you with your practices
grant, modified 9 Years ago at 8/2/14 10:57 AM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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Yes the visions are made from the tingles. I've seen them my entire life. My first word was me pointing to a tingle and saying light at first it was just colour schemes then when I separated my subtle body the tingle began to encompass everything. When I look at something its not solid I recently read something on the holographic universe that went along this idea how when I look at something it looks as though it is made up of millions of little specs of light. When I close my eyes and look at my hand I can see my hand and streams of light moving through it and it looks as though it is also made up of light is the same thing when I close my eyes and look at anything its like seeing the energy make up of everything. It seems as if these specs of lights tingle are spread across all of exeatence. Sometimes I see very large images in a small space or sometimes I have a slight out of body experience and I lose my vision except for what is in the tingles. After looking up aiddhis I first heard of something called the twelve fold egg shape existence it is literally the coolest thing I've seen basically was the universe in a tingle but except the universe wasn't just a universe it was a vast multi verse that I seen I seen all of this exectence as a distant view of it just far enough to a e evwrything . it started out on earth and then I controlled d the view so that it zooms out and I just kept zooming out it brought me through the Hubble deep field and I saw many galaxies and I speed it up and came to the most unique part of existence our very own neighborhood multiverse which was eight universes in a ring around a large sun. I think they call this the central sun. Then abovthat was a much larger macro universe and above the opening of that universe was a large macro galaxy spinning at the opening of the macro universe but this was only a small part but the most unique because we were at the center of everything and the eight ringed micro universes was unique and not found anywhere else. This section was in the center egg or shell kinda like a bubble in which protects our very existence. Like the lining to our universe the was a egg lining around this section and many other macro universes and galaxies orbiting around macro stars perfect stars that's our egg but there were many other eggs in like a field and beyond all this was another lining and planets and such which were in a layer of twelve. I saw aliens of all kinds even vampires and werewolves and dinosaurs and mythological creatures like pheniox and dragons. In 2012 I watched dragon eggs for a dragon and taught them how to use their elemental breath after the momma dragon taught me about it.

The tingles started out only as a feild of light specs surround me and existence at least this was the beginning of the first vision. I'm not sure how long but a few days later I realized emptiness and saw Buddha nature. I spent the rest of the first vision working with tathata or thusness and suchness. After a few years I began seeing numbers in the tingles like when I was in the room the walls would be covered in a matrix code of numbers. After awhile I began seeing hands arms LeGS and torsos this is when the first vision starts turning into the second vision. And the a cond vision begins with increase visionary experience which is hand to handle most the time with full body pictures a lot of dancing half naked women criminals and crimes and people falling victim to stuff happening and a lot of demons. The tingles move so much its had to tell how many coloura there are while they move around and I have no thoughts after realizing emptiness. I think the first vision is entry into the path of seeing the third of the five paths and the first bhumi. The second bhumi and the path of meditation begins with working with the tahtata of clear light. When you manifest the tathata of clear light which you gain insight into with the realization of emptiness you gain the second bhumi and the path of meditation. After that everything gets hazy for me. I don't know which bhumi I'm in but I'm still on the path of meditation. I gained the second bhumi within about a week or so. The second vision began about nine years after the first vision it took quite along time because I wasn't doing trecko I was focusing on mahamudra and their four yogas. Once things got harder to handle I started using tathata to tweek my experience. I soon found how important tathata was and kept using it and exploring different ways in which it could be uses. Once I got the hang of tathata my mind bcame tathata and I began using my focus and tathata to cut through to where the energy was more balanced about half way through the first vision years down the line I started being a raw vegan and quite smoking for awhile which is when my kundalini began to rise. It hasn't moved out of my root and sacral chakra though it seems to be working there a great deal. In the second vision I started pegging off the demons in the tingles once a knife made out of tingles was presented to me and I got more and more sophisticated with this practice. With the pegging off of the demons I gained greater control of my subtle body and began absorbing wisdom from the visions taking oba rubble persona or the life of a Buddha I. The tingle world I started changing my xperinces with the tingles by acting out experiences within the ingles like a play. There's a sutta that talks about a samadhi of defeating demons I dunno maybe that's what I came into. Because I kicked demon ass. I started with the christian demons and ghosts vanquishing them like I was on a tour in Iraq in the army. I spent two years living in the trenches visiting various hells to vanquish demons. They seemed to be everywhere I dunno if its the times we live in or just the nature of the illusion because of my catholic background. I dunno. But it became a sport. A part of my cutting through to the nature state like the dark energy was blocking the pristine states of the dharmakaya and shambohkaya. I learnt many fighting styles in the tingles none of which I can preform with my gross physical body but I which I used with my subtle body. I visited various teachers and absorbed there knowledge dge I the tingles ninjitsubwas my favorite and became my prefernce. This carried me into the third vision which I knew I was in when I woke up one night at 3 am and I was surrounded by the 42 peaceful Buddhas and 62 wrathful herkuas which are I. The kuntuzangpo prayer mentioned briefly. This happened after a trip to a Buddha land where the dyhani Buddhas lived in great palaces. Its been almost a year now in the third vision.

The a cond visision was quite horrifying and has calmed down since and my voices have become more pleasant.

I saw all kinds of things in the tigles mostly in the second vision from heaven and hell to a different death of Hitler at his podium. Familia airheart. Einstien. The cold war. Area 51 all kinda of stuff.
grant, modified 9 Years ago at 8/2/14 11:00 AM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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It was when I was a year into the togal visions when I was laying in bed in my dorm when I decided to force an outerbody experience and go meet my soul mate. Which worked I saw my white subtle body raising out of my body then I felt a merge with a women which was sexually blissful.

I believe trecko and thogal are tathata practices. Literally cutting through and leaping over.
grant, modified 9 Years ago at 8/2/14 11:05 AM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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Also if you read "the path of purification" which I believe is a theravada lititure it takes about a phenomena briefly that I think may be important to some. Randomly sometimes a larger bright perfect ball of light lights up In the center of vision and has a specific name. Not sure what the nimatta is called. But has to do with entering the jhanas and doing kasana meditation.
grant, modified 9 Years ago at 8/2/14 11:12 AM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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Red,blue,yellow,white,green are the primary colors of the tingles but I have seen other colours
grant, modified 9 Years ago at 8/3/14 12:36 PM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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I'm feeling a bit better about things now. I remembered that when I "connected with my soulmate" I was hazy with the details of what I did its all a haze because of the voices I can tell myself one thing and they go on about another and soon enough I'm caught up in it. I didn't connect to my soulmate but something did happen as to what I don't know when I raised out of my body with my subtle body I felt something an energy a sexual energy but I can put my finger on what it is I was thinking it was kundalini recently but it still doesn't fit. After reading about annatta again I see that it is the karmic traces that is reused or rebirthed not a self makes me think of quantum physics and phenomena. If I want to get to the fourth vision I'm prolly going to have to come to understand what this sexual energy is and it shouldn't be a soulmate I must of triggered some kind of subtle energy thanks for your time later
Banned For waht?, modified 9 Years ago at 8/3/14 2:12 PM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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you are stuck with content there is no soulmates or twinflames but there is people with similar karma. OBE is a pitfall i think because of clinging to content.

Dzogchen visions?
 what if you use different dharma door for enlightenment, like impermanence or self nature. If you would not have going out of the body then you wouldn't had visions about buddhas perhaps?
i think visions there is not meant literally visions.

The four visions (Tib. སྣང་བ་བཞི་Wyl. snang ba bzhi) of tögal are:
Jeff Grove, modified 9 Years ago at 8/3/14 7:14 PM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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Hi Grant,
Nimattas have nothing to do with Thodgal or thigles, they are an afterimage caused by the contemplation of an object, sustained thought and a mental image created through the process.Thodgal visions and not visions as such but more appearances of the structure of counsiousness as you move along the path closer to the source.The preliminarys a very important, working on attachments, gainng insight. There are phyiscal exercises to untie knots and open the subtle channels, building up internal energy thru breath practices.Thigles first appear about the size of a seed and there are initially two types showing the duality as counsiousness splits into light and matter. One with a light outside and dark inside and one with a light inside and dark outside. there must be a relaxed effort to stabilise these to the center of your vision. If you concentrate on the thigles they will light up and shrink in size moving farther away from the source. Estatic release of energy will make them grow in size and clarity thus the different use of energy in moving along the path.Once stabilised you will see a pattern of 4 or 5 in a cluster of complimentary colours corresponding to the elements. They will then grow to about pea size and you will begin to notice a structure of chains of thigles or tubes leading to what I can only describe as Indras Net, a matrix of intersecting thigles. This is an open eye practice started off by looking at the deep blue sky although you will start to see thigles under all light condtions. I asked what you see if you look at people , trees and your hands and you explained what you see with your eyes closed. By the third vision you should be sentitive to change, light refracting off the air/water causing a rainbow affect, auras around people and trees.Thodgal is not about out of body experiences and visions of you and places and people. You will start to see what could be described as buddhas sitting inside the thigles perhaps christ depending on your cultural background and meanings you assign. But it is more about moving along the path in counscious experince towards the source. There are eventually breacth practices to store your energy in the sky instead of the body as this is the dharmakaya. You should take the time to read Dans book and start a good foundation in insight practices gaining an understanding in self, impermance, suffering, cause and conditions, dependent origination, the skandhas etc. Emptiness cannot be understood intellectually although it helps. Your description doesnt sound like thodgal practices but I am not that far along the path and have plenty to learn and experience. Read the Yeshe Lama that should help attaining the 4th vision.cheers
grant, modified 9 Years ago at 10/24/14 11:41 AM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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Ive been thinking more about this the reason being when ask the about the self in a sutta the buddha replied that to say there was a self or to say there isnt a self was incorrect I think that the buddhas emptiness was the same emptiness of science today to say that anything had substains was incorrect and I understand that. Perhaps then maybe it is someone with similiar karma then,like you said up there I think its a dakini
because after all thats what I was trying to connect with when I had the second out body experience I was trying to connect with the dakinis in my visions I embraced one and went into union with her. and it happens like that alot that I will go in union with her it kind of cycles and cycles and different sensations arise and it cycles for days weeks months sometimes and then all of a sudden we will embrace eachother again its been going in these cycles since it began which makes me believe it is a dakini but I also suspect that maybe there is a physical form to this
dakini but there is just to much going on at any particular moment to find anything about this dakini.

and yes listen to the kuntuzangpo prayer it says that from the 5 dhayni buddhas comes the wrathful and peaceful buddhas it is literal everything about it is literal I know Im on the right path it even says in the prayer once the wrathful and peaceful buddhas appear you know the ground is never mistake as in the ground path and fruition. give it a listen its a good prayer:.
Kuntuzangpo Prayer on Youtube:

its a little slow to start this one but when it starts it goes all the way through the prayer

and also I looked at that sutta with the samadhi of defeating demons again and I think I went into it because on one occation I was at a friends house meditation on no-self and my body dissapeared and right after that I meditated on no-mind and my body became 3 orbs of emptines and then I went back in my body with no-mind ever since then my voices have been helpful and mostly kind although still lost and confused they read everything i needed to read and they would have a tendincy to pretend they were the person they vocalized so they helped with things like going to the bathroom and eating ect. although I have a problem with doing the dishes and cooking because they never want to do that not good but not bad I still have a mind but most of the time Im able to stay in samadhi because of the voices i dunno I guess they turned out to be a gift with giving me time of work and normal responsibilities and giving me time to practice the dharma if i didnt have
scizophrenia I wouldnt be able to stay in samadhi for so long and also not even be able to practice the dharma. they have turned out to be a gift rather than curse.

so samadhi of defeating demons because I was able to get rid of the 5 elements of body and focus with no-mind there are other requirements they are in the sutta take a look:

for a couple years now Ive been going after the demons every once in awhile in the samadhi

next month something is going to happen on the 16th thursday not sure what it is but the ground is goes right to that date I can feel the energy solid firm still calm and it points to next month

I had a dream that this is when I suffered a stroke but i also had another dream that it was when I achieved enlightenment so who knows maybe i will die maybe I will enter the fourth vision and all phenomena will be extiushed along with anything remaining of concepts. Ive been reading the tiben book of the dead just in case to freshen up on it Ive had other preminitions that have come true the most recent was a preminition of robin williams death was odd and i didnt know what to do after the preminitioun I thought maybe it was nothing but then soon after he killed himself. I tend to keep a watchful eye and tend to these things just in case and sometimes i get by but other times when i ignore the signals I can get fucked over. who knows will have to see.

so to sum it up I got stream entry because of first outer body experience I embraced a dakini and went into union with her in the second outer body experience and later went into the samadhi of defeating demons and been in there ever since and Ive seen many hells and many demons Ive had prue visions too though. anyways I have a better understanding now although I still wonder about the correlation of other religions that buddhism might have like the tao
T DC, modified 9 Years ago at 10/24/14 12:21 PM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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Grant, those are super interesting experiences, thanks for sharing!  Could you describe what relizing emptiness was like in detail?

Personally I went through the 4 visions, so I will tell you what hapened to me.  After a long time of practice, and much progressive attainment, I saw through the self, the big "I".  I was meditating, the thought of "I" arose, and I percieved it to be only a mental construct, and thus it fell away.  Another way to explain it, the "I" arose, I became aware of seeing it, and realized that if I could percieve the "I", than it was seperate from myself, and not truly me.  When the "I" was gone I realized this was the entrance to the first Vision; direct realization of reality itself.

The Visions progressed gradually.  I do not see quite as much in the spirit world as you, but in a mental sense our experiences sound somewhat similar.  At any rate, do not fear the fourth vision!  Final dissolusion reffers only to the illusion of duality.  It is not the end of our experience, or anything good in our life, like soul mates, it is the final death of dualistic confusion and illusion.  The moment the 4 vision was completed was one of great peace and happiness; finally one is fully a Buddha!

grant, modified 9 Years ago at 10/24/14 12:52 PM
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It was if I was completely primordial I was on the other side at one point I was bridged between life and death I remember the moment when my flesh was not there and my only way back in a body would be no mind and allow buddha nature to bring me back to my body. It was faith that got me through that when I was meditating on no self it was as if everything just dropped away including my flesh and I was just a green primordial image it was like a small figmant of what my flesh looked like but no real appearancve to it I was lucky enough to have done it infront of a mirror.  It was the single coolest experience of my life and Ive had some good ones. IT has given me enough faith and skill I was mostly aiming to better my skill at the point when i was meditating but my faith got stronger too because of that I've had enough faith to get me to the third vision and now it is waning Im just waiting for dissolution now.

Perhaps maybe you will attain rainbow body at death?
grant, modified 9 Years ago at 11/5/14 9:25 AM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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T DC how long did your visions wane at the end of the third vision before fruition?
T DC, modified 9 Years ago at 11/5/14 11:51 AM
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T DC how long did your visions wane at the end of the third vision before fruition?

I went through all of the visions in about a month, with the third vision lasting maybe 5 days.  The experience was; once I was really in the third vision, and experience was at its peak, I just naturally moved toward going beyond it.  I can describe my experience of the 4 visions

1.  The entrance was when I fully saw through the self.  I had already been mediation for 3 years and had progressed through the gradual levels attainment.  When the self was gone, I no longer believed in the false 'I', but there was still subtle duality.  The final eradication of this subtle duality is really what the 4 Visions are about.  To enter the 4 Visions, one must have eradicated in entireity the ego structure, such that only a slight veil seperates one from genuine perception of oneness. 
2.  During the 2nd vision the 'energy of reality' became stronger.
3.  In the 3rd it was peaking; experiences like thigles abounded, it was somewhat like living in a fine spiritual mist, one that is about to be burned off by a bright sun one can just almost make out.
4.  The 4th vision is the final eradication of duality. For me something 'popped', there was a moment of having my mind blown, and then I realized the inherant oneness of all things.

I went through the visions prety fast, although my progress on the whole was probably reasonably quick.  I cannot emphasis enough that in order to complete the visions, or to truly experience them at all, one has to be at a VERY high level of realization.  A glimpse of emptiness is FAR back on the path.  I am saying this because if you hope for full enlightenment when you are not truly close, you are in for a long wait and suffering.  I do not truly know where you are at, and I'm not trying to dishearten you, but it might be wise to carefully the depth of your insight.  Do you still experience the feeling of 'I', of being a seperately existing self?
grant, modified 9 Years ago at 11/9/14 3:13 PM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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the visions of thogal dont unfold in a month, im sorry to tell you but what you experienced was not togal visions I entered the visions about 12-13 years ago thanks for trying anyhow
Martin Voggenberger, modified 9 Years ago at 2/10/15 5:33 AM
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RE: dzogchen not a religion but a state of mind

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the visions of thogal dont unfold in a month, im sorry to tell you but what you experienced was not togal visions I entered the visions about 12-13 years ago thanks for trying anyhow

"Transparency" or the "natural state", is neither a "state of mind" nor a product of "meditation". Every actual so called "thogal"-vision is the immediate-obvious "exact expression" of transparency. In other words, thogal is not about "the visions", it's about the appearance mode of  unfolding pure vision like sounds, rays, lights -> the mode of knowledge or the mode of ignorance. Pure visions in the modus of ignorance, have nothing to do with "thogal". It's impossible to understand the true meaning of such access with consciousness resp. without actually realised path-knowledge.

@TDC: Grant is right. Your experience has also nothing to do with treckcho/thogal. But for other reasons.