Knowing other minds

Knowing other minds Jeremy May 8/13/14 4:22 PM
RE: Knowing other minds Illuminatus 8/25/14 11:02 AM
RE: Knowing other minds Dream Walker 8/25/14 11:34 AM
RE: Knowing other minds Illuminatus 8/26/14 4:06 AM
RE: Knowing other minds Daniel M. Ingram 8/26/14 4:19 AM
RE: Knowing other minds Illuminatus 8/26/14 4:40 PM
RE: Knowing other minds Jenny 8/26/14 8:40 PM
RE: Knowing other minds Illuminatus 8/27/14 5:30 AM
RE: Knowing other minds Jeremy May 8/28/14 1:21 AM
RE: Knowing other minds Illuminatus 9/3/14 8:07 AM
RE: Knowing other minds Blue Jay 9/6/14 7:07 AM
RE: Knowing other minds dat Buddha-field 9/6/14 2:09 PM
RE: Knowing other minds Blue Jay 9/6/14 1:55 PM
RE: Knowing other minds dat Buddha-field 9/6/14 2:29 PM
RE: Knowing other minds Jeremy May 9/6/14 4:01 PM
RE: Knowing other minds Blue Jay 9/6/14 7:13 PM
RE: Knowing other minds Jeremy May 9/6/14 8:52 PM
RE: Knowing other minds dat Buddha-field 9/6/14 9:46 PM
RE: Knowing other minds Jeremy May 9/6/14 10:09 PM
RE: Knowing other minds Blue Jay 10/31/14 2:57 AM
RE: Knowing other minds Jeremy May 10/31/14 10:14 AM
RE: Knowing other minds Blue Jay 10/31/14 2:36 PM
RE: Knowing other minds J J 9/6/14 10:25 PM
RE: Knowing other minds Jeremy May 9/6/14 10:42 PM
RE: Knowing other minds J J 9/7/14 12:59 AM
RE: Knowing other minds Jeremy Kranz 9/7/14 11:34 PM
RE: Knowing other minds Dream Walker 8/26/14 6:06 PM
RE: Knowing other minds Eric M W 8/26/14 3:06 PM
RE: Knowing other minds J J 9/6/14 2:08 PM
RE: Knowing other minds H McElroy 11/5/14 4:44 PM
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 8/13/14 4:22 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/13/14 4:22 PM

Knowing other minds

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
This began long before I encountered buddishm.  Of course, meditation was an instinct for me as a child, a spillover from the last life.  It was only the last few years, however, that I knew each time it was happening.  Now, I have more control and sometimes can know someone's current thought at will, if they are thinking on something hard enough.  

Last week, I realized that distance no longer matters, as I rushed to a friend's house because I felt he may be crying.  He was.  Now, I am wondering what limits there are to this very natural practice.
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Illuminatus, modified 9 Years ago at 8/25/14 11:02 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/25/14 11:02 AM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 101 Join Date: 7/16/14 Recent Posts
Jeremy May:
Now, I have more control and sometimes can know someone's current thought at will, if they are thinking on something hard enough.

Do you get the actual verbal content of their thought, i.e. the exact words? Or is it the feelings, intent, visuals, or other sensory representations?
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Dream Walker, modified 9 Years ago at 8/25/14 11:34 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/25/14 11:29 AM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 1693 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Jeremy May:
Now, I am wondering what limits there are to this very natural practice.

In speaking with someone who experienced this, they explained that many times it is none of their business and morality dictated that they shut down the information that was not for the benefit of all beings. Now only useful actionable information passes thru that they then respond to.
Investigate the feeling you get when spying on people without their expressed permission. You may also wish to put up some limits/boundaries.
You may also find that there are natural limits if you continuly use this ability to cause harm or knowing certain things may result in harm to your positive evolution as a being.
Good luck,
~D
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Illuminatus, modified 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 4:06 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 4:06 AM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 101 Join Date: 7/16/14 Recent Posts
Dream Walker:
Jeremy May:
Now, I am wondering what limits there are to this very natural practice.

In speaking with someone who experienced this, they explained that many times it is none of their business and morality dictated that they shut down the information that was not for the benefit of all beings.

Jeremy I'm still interested in knowing everything about how you do it please, since living a moral life so far seems to have screwed me over more often than not... emoticon
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 4:19 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 4:19 AM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
People do often find the thing really off-putting and creepy. I remember this one conversation with a supervisor at the National AIDS Hotline and how she turned away and put her hand over her eyes and got flustered when I mentioned something that I had the sense she was thinking but not saying. It is invasive. Privacy is important. It can be like looking through someone's desk drawers, bedside table or diary but with them standing there not able to do anything about it. Departures from normal boundaries (of which internal private thought is a key foundation of most people's sense of privacy) rapidly degrade most relationships, I have found. It is only in very unusual contexts that people tend to appreciate this, and they still often find it unnerving on retrospect.
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Eric M W, modified 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 3:06 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 3:06 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 288 Join Date: 3/19/14 Recent Posts
I had a strong feeling of being able to look into other people's minds during my last EQ phase. I would look at them, and something in my head would shift, and their head would open up. I could see their memories, thoughts, big issues. Or at least, I got the strong sense that I could, I never actually bothered to ask.

Something to think about-- our jobs, our family, our friends, even our "powers" are all impermanent. One day they will be gone. But the consequences of our actions ring on forever. In a sense, our only true possessions are the consequences of our actions. Remember this when using the powers, or doing anything, really.

If that sounds too vague, here are some basic ground rules for the powers that I have found helpful:

- Ask for permission before prying into the private lives of other beings, doing healings, etc
- If you "accidentally" pry into another being's life, simply set the info aside and resolve not to let it happen again
- Keep your mouth shut
- Keep your pants on (powers and sex go together in weird ways)
- Do not make any major decisions based on what you perceive while practicing powers; they are unreliable
- If things get too crazy, it's time for meatloaf and beer
- When in doubt, note it out

I have had experiences with "the powers" on and off throughout my entire life. This includes seeing info in a past life that I was later able to verify, communicating with "people" who identified themselves and being deceased, reading minds, and manipulating the future to a very small extent.

Cool? Yes. Free of suffering? No. Remember that.
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Illuminatus, modified 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 4:40 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 4:35 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 101 Join Date: 7/16/14 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
I remember this one conversation with a supervisor at the National AIDS Hotline and how she turned away and put her hand over her eyes and got flustered when I mentioned something that I had the sense she was thinking but not saying.

Did you get the actual verbal content? I've only ever had direct verbal transfer a few times (completely unintentionally) but it has happened.

Eric M W:
- Keep your pants on (powers and sex go together in weird ways)

Indeed. I have literally had women say, "It's like you're in my head!" I actually am. I "become" them during sex (and them, me -- it always seems a kind of unity). It arose as a kind of natural gift, but intensified x10 after starting meditation. I have tantric abilities and these just "appeared" rather than being intentionally trained. I can transfer it directly to them, too, allowing them to become multiorgasmic and have multi-hour-long orgasms (including some who had never had an orgasm ever) with no specific verbal coaching, sometimes on the first encounter (though usually on the second when some barriers have come down). One woman painted a picture of me as Jesus Christ following sex (she was Catholic). In another painting I was done with glowing light around my head. I never intended any of this; it's just how I am. I have become aware of the kind of emotional bond this sex builds and have actually suppressed it at times with some girls for both our sakes. I'm pretty sure I could teach all this, too.

I have only verified this direct mind link taking place (hundreds of times) actually during sex when I'm deep in trance myself. I've had a few women sleep with me after I visualized it but put that down more as a "people thinking of each other" natural thing rather than anything "magick". But now I'm not sure.

Anyway, pain has been caused (at least half to me) by my use of the powers in these ways despite it being unintentional. I learned a great deal and went through many Dark Nights as a result. But I'm grateful for having learned what can be done.

That's why I want Jeremy's tech -- the lessons, for me, come after we've already tested something. If we're good people and do not want to cause pain then we will be inclined towards morality once we have seen first-hand what can happen. I've never been one for dogma and need to see everything myself before deciding whether or not something's a good idea. I'm always thinking of how we can ultimately use this stuff for a nicer world. Omelettes and eggs spring to mind. emoticon
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Dream Walker, modified 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 6:06 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 6:06 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 1693 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Experiencing someone spying on you is a creepy feeling. When I go to a particular Wat I always got the feeling that I was being watched and somehow unwelcome. The feeling persists during regular noting practice but I've found that by starting with Metta practice for all beings; the sensation instantly changes to like "Oh, ok you can do that here" and then the sensation stops....I continue for a while with metta then shift to noting. It's all fine now as long as I follow this.
~D
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Jenny, modified 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 8:40 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 8:40 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 566 Join Date: 7/28/13 Recent Posts
EDD:
I have literally had women say, "It's like you're in my head!" I actually am. I "become" them during sex (and them, me -- it always seems a kind of unity). It arose as a kind of natural gift, but intensified x10 after starting meditation. I have tantric abilities and these just "appeared" rather than being intentionally trained. I can transfer it directly to them, too, allowing them to become multiorgasmic and have multi-hour-long orgasms (including some who had never had an orgasm ever) with no specific verbal coaching, sometimes on the first encounter (though usually on the second when some barriers have come down). One woman painted a picture of me as Jesus Christ following sex (she was Catholic). In another painting I was done with glowing light around my head. 

Oh. So you are God's gift to women, are you? I wonder how many times I've heard this one. emoticon
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Illuminatus, modified 9 Years ago at 8/27/14 5:30 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/27/14 5:17 AM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 101 Join Date: 7/16/14 Recent Posts
Jen Pearly:
Oh. So you are God's gift to women, are you? I wonder how many times I've heard this one. emoticon

We are here to discuss the powers, not your disdain for men, or bragging, or whatever.
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 8/28/14 1:21 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/28/14 1:21 AM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
Edd, That was such a wise thing to say.  You must already be attaining Noble Wisdom, Omnicience, to know that Truth.  Siddhis are very dangerous in the wrong hands.  You can be very close to Enlightenment without achieving enlightenment, and in those cases, only compassion can keep a person from becoming very evil and very powerful when the siddhis appear.

If you're wondering,  I was not an ardent buddhist, ever.  I did not study hard.  Meditation was such a chore to me.  I came by way of Westernized Zen, like many in this forum.  I was lucky.  It is the most difficult of dhammas.  There are great things about the Zen teachings that led me to escape from suffering, though.  Most important of them all, however, is the disdain for Jhanas and for siddhis.  I was taught to disregard them completely as simply illusions.

(Siddhis are the opposite of Illusion, just as jhanas are levels of escape from illusion, but we use lies and half-truths in all branches of buddhism in order to help people find the ineffable truths for themselves. So, when teaching, stick to sutras, but when meeting enlightened people, you can discuss truths in perfect and beautiful ways that can't be done with deluded minds.)

So I had not believed in anything spiritual about Buddhism or any religion for most of my adult life.  And Zen had given me a disdain for mahayana.  So I didn't know what Siddhis were or if my psychic senses were actually psychic, or if I was experiencing an insanity.  I had always done it somewhat, and I had well-thought scientific and rational explanations for myself.  I was sure that my brain was picking up on cues I didn't conciously percieve, and creating conclusions that were very accurate when there was nothing too specific involved.  Even after enlightenment, I still believed in absolutely nothing but science.  However, after this point, my senses not only got stronger, they started giving me Details!  Having no sense of shame anymore, I started telling people what I "felt" like I was getting.  It shocked me to the core.  Over and over.  I startled many people, but I was the one who became more and more uneasy.  Looking at a stranger and saying "you got raped at 13 by your stepdad" was wrong of me, but by the time this experience happened I was becoming very disturbed.  Afraid.  Desperate for explanation.  My science had to be ammended.  

So the path I had thought completed for so long, began again after five years.  I knew what I was not.  My new passion was to find out what I was.  What everything was.  Why was there illusion?  I learned so much since then that It is unfathomable to me in retrospect.  I am so glad to be able to discuss such things!


I will tell you a little about reading minds.  But your own adventures will be much more interesting.  When you know another's mind, it can be on any level.  Moods are the easiest.  They are often too easily known, as I will become very anxious if someone around me is anxious (that is, anxious but hiding it).  I think a lot of people do this to some degree  Very rarely is it ever phrases, as in distinct words, because we do not normally think in words, but it can happen if someone is concentraded on a phrase strongly.  The best example in my own life, so far, was a moment where my friend asked me to grab something and in my mind I felt "in the bedroom" while at the same time mentally 'heard', "Top drawer".  My friend yelled "top drawer" when I was already in the next room and reaching for the drawer.  This was a rare thing for me, though i have found it common to start singing a song in someone else's head.  

Why did I get two knowings at the same time?  We think many thoughts simultaneously.  Each level of cognition can work at the same time.  The lowest level of cognition thinks in emotions or 'flavors'.  This is the easiest to read, and the easiest kind of reading to practice. This is why you may walk into a room and sense "tension".  If you have inner stillness, and feel panic when someone approaches, it is not your panic.

So always ask yourself, "is this feeling mine?" before searching for its cause. ( Also, I still have anxiety sometimes, if you wondered.  But it is good.  It is useful.  It is just enough to make me hurry when I need to hurry, to want to leave a chaotic place, ro be careful not to break a thing.  But no longer do I have panic attacks.)  I feel other people's emotions most when I know them well, and it hurts the same as if they were my emotions.  So if I can't calm someone, I have to leave.  I am still attaining Noble Wisdom, so maybe it will not always be this way?

I love this discussion.  I want to comment on the other posts:

Reading minds is invasive.  It is also very natural and happens all the time between everyone.  However, learning to do it does cause a morality issue.  If I wanted, I could become very wealthy and influential with minimal effort.  That is why it is regarded as dangerous to pursue the siddhis before attaining Noble Wisdom.  That is the meaning behind "Tantra can create both buddhas and bodhisattvas, but can also create DemonKings".  For a good example of a DemonKing, I think of the early career of General Buttnaked.

When integrating the jhanas with daily life, there are many side effects.  If you feel as if you are receiving information when interacting with another being, you very much are.  The practice comes into play when you must familiarize yourself with the taste of your own imagination to know the taste of other minds.  You gotta find out when you are right and wrong.. This can lead to many bad experiences.  It's best to use this siddhi only when you are compelled by love to do so.

I have had many experiences that taught me how wrongness can enter in and cause suffering before I gained a better understanding.  One time, after playing a venue, a stranger sat next to me and began to compliment me and I immediately grabbed his shoulder and said "You're supposed to be dead.  What happened? How are you alive?" and this made him run to the bathroom and lock himself in for thirty minutes while his gf had to calm him through the door.  It was a wrongness of me.  I discovered the story later.  The man held a secret that he had been born dead for his first six minutes and yet came back to life with absolutely no brain damage, baffling the doctors.  I had sensed an otherworldly 'smell' on him and in my curiousity I had scared the shit out of him.  I drove away someone I could have helped in some small way.

A few of these experiences taught me enough to know when to use this ability, though I'm still gaining wisdom even now, and the few times lately I've used it in the last two years, I've not ever been wrong...  ...Until last week.  I drank whiskey for the first time in many years, and that messed up everything and I ended up making a fool of myself.  But that was just another lesson emoticon

For myself, as with Daniel, it started out as a natural gift that become exponentially stronger after 2nd, 3rd, and 4th path.  It gets stronger every day.  But of course now, I only have the impetus to ease pain, and so I keep it secret.  I wonder why some people have a natural gift.  I have my own thoughts on the issue, but it is very obvious to me that All people do it often.  Some people do it well, naturally, to a point where they need treatment and generally are diagnosed as schizoaffective or schizophrenic.  Some become psychics.  I know of a mentalist in Israel that describes the process in the same way as I always have.

I feel when people are trying to know my mind.  I love feeling that feeling and I love calling people out when I feel them do it. When seeing two people, I often look into one person's mind and listen audibly to the other person responding to movements in the mind of the first person, all without either of those people realizing that extrasensory perception was being used.

It is powerful Sexually.  It changes the nature of Sex.  It is another level, and that is why certain sects promote ego-loss through tantric sex.  There is Dhamma in tantric sex! Vajrayana, Mahamudra.  I'm gay, or at least was gay, but I can say the same thing that Daniel has said about this siddhi.  It made me an amazing lover.

 
Vajrayana Vajrayana 
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Illuminatus, modified 9 Years ago at 9/3/14 8:07 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/3/14 8:04 AM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 101 Join Date: 7/16/14 Recent Posts
Thanks for your detailed description Jeremy!

I have some analysis to be done before I can add anything. Specifically I want to look further into "knowing one's own emotions as distinct from another's".

Two strong examples of where this is murky for me are my eldest brother (mildly schizophrenic; a LOT of nervous energy) and my mother (nervous, ungrounded, angry). I get strong "transmissions" from them whenever they're around but I'm leaning towards thinking that draws from my own past experiences with them as a predictive emotion rather than their emotions being "transmitted" to me.

And then there are examples with non-family members whereby I might be drawing on past experience of someone similar to the person I'm interacting with, rather than actually "reading" THIS person. The line is extremely blurred for me.

The problem with assuming it's all them is that it tends to discount what I myself am bringing to the table. Therefore it makes me more powerless to grow and stabilize myself if I assume it's just what they're bringing to the situation. I have tended towards assuming it's MY "issue" and therefore working on that, rather than assuming it's something I'm wholly reading from the other (which puts me on the backfoot in many ways).

Then we have questions of how this "transmission" is taking place -- is it metaphysical, or am I simply reading cues accurately via mirror neurons, body language, tonality etc.? For me, this area is currently very murky and indistinct.

Yet I've also heard songs in people's heads and started singing them, giving a "WTF?" moment (usually joyful and amusing for us both!) and I've heard exact words i.e. verbal thoughts. In the former, it's possible we both heard the song on the radio minutes beforehand but did not register it consciously. In the latter, I've sometimes been thinking words, then the other person has started talking about that thing. I've not known clearly who thought the words first: am I the sender or the receiver? Also, this could be explained non-metaphysically as us sharing similar thoughts as a result of environmental triggers and/or shared experience -- or it could be explained metaphysically as "transmission".

I've been comfortable viewing these phenomena through both lenses in the past. It hasn't happened enough recently for me to go fully down the rabbit hole of metaphysical explanations, but I'll keep my eyes open.

Most things in this world can be viewed through either lens (physical or metaphysical) -- I tend to lean towards the lens that is most useful to me as an individual. I would likely go down the metaphysical path if I felt it could be reproducible and useful. Right now I don't have the reproducibility or even a method of trying to create reproducibility. Do you have step-by-step stuff for me to follow to get these results more tangibly and regularly?
Blue Jay, modified 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 7:07 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 7:07 AM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 95 Join Date: 1/19/14 Recent Posts
The Visuddhimagga makes a strange claim about knowing others' minds. Is it true that a person before 1st path cannot know the mind of a stream winner? And that a stream winner cannot know the mind of a once returner? And etc?
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dat Buddha-field, modified 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 2:09 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 12:56 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 43 Join Date: 4/1/14 Recent Posts
Blue Jay:
The Visuddhimagga makes a strange claim about knowing others' minds. Is it true that a person before 1st path cannot know the mind of a stream winner? And that a stream winner cannot know the mind of a once returner? And etc?
I think this is basically true... but it's more about degrees of knowing.  You can't know their mind fully.  Have you ever had the experience of talking with a powerful teacher and getting the sense that they could 'see through you'?  Perhaps they could see your neuroses in a way that made them more apparent to you?

You can't 'see through' someone who has a more powerful mind than you is the basic point.  You can know their mind in the sense of receiving what they choose to communicate to you.
Blue Jay, modified 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 1:55 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 1:37 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

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I see...

I had a weird experience once. Usualy I know if a person is good or bad (simplifying it) by looking into their eyes. I met a teacher that I couldn't understand on that level. The eyes were so clouded that I couldn't even see his pupils. However, I couldn't get what the "clouds" were, except that they were probably strong defilements. I usualy see sadness, or happiness, or anger, etc. But I couldn't specify in this case. But I would guess with reasonable certainty that he wasn't above 1st path.

I think he tried to do something similar with me, but got defensive. Since I expected him to be skilled in jhana, my guess is that, since I was skilled in insight (1st path at least) we both saw things in each other, but on different angles.

Does this make sense?

PS: I cannot read minds. It's a kind of refinement of body language reading, focused on the eyes.
J J, modified 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 2:08 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 2:08 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 225 Join Date: 3/31/14 Recent Posts
I used to read seduction community material ("The Game" by Neil Strauss). One of the advertised benefits of practicing their material is clairvoyance, which they define as the ability to tell what is going on in any given social interaction.

Their claim is more or less accurate; social interactions do not consist of interactions between conflicting "personalities", rather the truth is in the exchange or the interaction itself, moreover there is always a tension between whether someone wants to invest in the conversation, or just bail, therefore it is necessary to say whatever comes to mind, even if it seems stupid.

The point is that your actions predetermine their actions in the conversation, and consequently it is possible to tell whatever they are going to say, their state of tension, and what they are "thinking" at any given moment.

I can easily tell what other people are thinking at any given moment in time, no one seems particularly inscrutable to me, I do not "hear their thoughts", rather I can predict what they are going to do because I possess empathy, I can put myself in their shoes. I often made fun of my mother in this way, saying things like "Don't worry, I won't <insert action>", saying exactly what was on her mind when I walked into the kitchen. I then proceeded to tell her that I was psychic.

In terms of actual cool moments of telepathy, while playing a game that involves comparing disparate categories of objects ("If President Obama were a type of beverage" or "if Zen Buddhism were a type of car" etc) I repeated verbatim a comparison someone else was making in their head.

Peace.
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dat Buddha-field, modified 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 2:29 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 2:29 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 43 Join Date: 4/1/14 Recent Posts
Yea, you get it basically.  It's hard to say what he took from that situation, but I've definitely had similar experiences where meditation teachers seem surprised and occaisionally a little insecure when our minds meet.  I don't think they come across many high level practitioners who are not sitting up at the front of the room next to them.  

Some jhana practitioners also have that 'lit from within' look to them.  I enjoy meeting people like that.  

FYI, you can read minds.  I think it's very ordinary.  We tend to call it empathy or emotional intelligence.  My experience (which has been far less dramatic and metaphysical than the other stories on this thread) has indicated to me that 'mind reading' is just a natural extension of what we do all the time.  I can't know another persons thoughts (though I've had a few incidental experiences on retreat before), but I see far more of people that I used to.  I just pick up on more.  It's in their eyes like you say, and how they hold their body.  

Maybe there are other more metaphysical types of communication but I don't know anything about those.
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 4:01 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 4:01 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
"FYI, you can read minds.  I think it's very ordinary.  We tend to call it empathy or emotional intelligence.  My experience (which has been far less dramatic and metaphysical than the other stories on this thread) has indicated to me that 'mind reading' is just a natural extension of what we do all the time.  I can't know another persons thoughts (though I've had a few incidental experiences on retreat before), but I see far more of people that I used to.  I just pick up on more.  It's in their eyes like you say, and how they hold their body."  


Perfect!  
I have been wanting to explain what has been explained in these last posts.  To proceed in the development of the iddhis, one must progress along the Dharma.  There is nothing to add.  I like Daniel's Dhamma because I was working on the vast task of bringing new terms to the suttas, and found it had been done.  It is done perfectly.  
Knowing Minds is Empathy.  
The further you progress in the mastery of the jhanas, the more you will see (though some necessary stages are blind, dark stages).  You cannot know the mind that is clearer than yours.  But they can know yours.  

Distance does not matter after a point in the Dharma.
Yesterday I comforted a sobbing ten year old by talking to her about the people in her life.  She may wonder, later, how I knew her teacher at school, her friends, but in the moment it only mattered to her that someone understood.  I no longer showcase, but I use the siddhis when they suit me.
Blue Jay, modified 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 7:13 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 7:09 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 95 Join Date: 1/19/14 Recent Posts
dat Buddha-field:

FYI, you can read minds.  I think it's very ordinary.  We tend to call it empathy or emotional intelligence.  My experience (which has been far less dramatic and metaphysical than the other stories on this thread) has indicated to me that 'mind reading' is just a natural extension of what we do all the time.  I can't know another persons thoughts (though I've had a few incidental experiences on retreat before), but I see far more of people that I used to.  I just pick up on more.  It's in their eyes like you say, and how they hold their body. 

Now that we're at it, how do you cope? I mean, I used to be completely oblivious to the minutia of social interactions. Now I am too aware. Honestly, even though it's fascinating, I don't like it. If I'm not disturbed myself, I see every little conflict that arises, however innocent it may seem. In a normal situation, it would certainly bother me. But since I am releasing a lot of anger myself, it bothers me even more to be this aware of things I don't like to know.

How can we cope with that?
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 8:52 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 8:52 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
Ah, you have arrived at the crux of the matter.
It is such sweetness to find such brilliant people that all discussions will progress toward such wise remarks...

The crux: It is the meaning behind the Koan, "What is the meaning of the Patriarch's coming from the West?"
Why did Buddha toil in the teaching of the dhamma when all things are as they should be?
Why does Daniel say he longs for the day he can be worth 'less'?

The farther you go on your dhamma, the more suffering you will see around you.  There is nothing within you that can suffer, yet you suffer when you encounter suffering.  This is as true as 'there is no-one to suffer, but there is suffering that is aware of itself" or "no seer but the seen".

Even after the most illuminating enlightenment, one returns.  Even after the ninth jhana, the secret one, one must return.  It is not enough to know Truth, but instead Truth must be integrated in all the constituents that first caused the arising of delusion.  Why?  Because it hurts to love people and see them suffer, especially when the Arhat sees that it is ignorance that causes this suffering.

This is why there is another path, the metta sutta, the way of Christ.  Along with the four paths in Mahayana, all Five paths lead to the destination of ego-death.  What remains illuminates the temporal mind and body to be instruments of love, the desire for the reconciliation of all things.  

For a more practical answer, I will say it another way:  In each moment, cope however you must.  When I was 19, I was so empathetic that I couldn't function.  I was writing brilliant essays, one after another, detailing the ethics of modern institutions and how they should change. I got so overwhelmed by the misery in the world and my helplessness in its regards that I ended up in the mental hospital.  It took about a year to recover.  

So I know there are many people with mental illness.  But I also know that many people are diagnosed to have schizoaffective disorders when they are, in reality, empaths.  I did not learn this until a few years ago, however, and so for many years after a brutal experience, I had to cope in many ways.  Drugs helped me.  Meditation helped me.  Solitude helped me.  Many things helped me.

What helped me most, to a point where never again will I have such concerns, was progressing in the Dharma.  
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dat Buddha-field, modified 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 9:46 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 9:45 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 43 Join Date: 4/1/14 Recent Posts
Blue Jay:
dat Buddha-field:

FYI, you can read minds.  I think it's very ordinary.  We tend to call it empathy or emotional intelligence.  My experience (which has been far less dramatic and metaphysical than the other stories on this thread) has indicated to me that 'mind reading' is just a natural extension of what we do all the time.  I can't know another persons thoughts (though I've had a few incidental experiences on retreat before), but I see far more of people that I used to.  I just pick up on more.  It's in their eyes like you say, and how they hold their body. 

Now that we're at it, how do you cope? I mean, I used to be completely oblivious to the minutia of social interactions. Now I am too aware. Honestly, even though it's fascinating, I don't like it. If I'm not disturbed myself, I see every little conflict that arises, however innocent it may seem. In a normal situation, it would certainly bother me. But since I am releasing a lot of anger myself, it bothers me even more to be this aware of things I don't like to know.

How can we cope with that?
I'm afraid there's no easy answer to that one, but your experience is opening to the ground of the Mahayana.  I think you realize the problem, which is that knowing the suffering of others is a large burden when we're still very conflicted ourselves.  Eventually, we can be free and open enough to gladly take on the suffering of others.  It may still affect us deeply, but we can also be okay with that.  

We can be ok while taking on others' suffering because simultaneously, we are able to let the light of our wisdom shine.  This doesn't mean laying dumb platitudes on suffering people.  It means doing exactly what needs to be done in that situation, which may mean doing nothing at all but being present to the suffering of that person.    

So the answer I have given you is to be wise, which I realize is a non-answer.  Yet even if we're not yet that wise, we can aspire to be, and aspirations are worth something.  

Keep purifying yourself.  If you're filled with anger, do metta.  
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 10:09 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 10:09 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
"We can be ok while taking on others' suffering because simultaneously, we are able to let the light of our wisdom shine.  This doesn't mean laying dumb platitudes on suffering people.  It means doing exactly what needs to be done in that situation, which may mean doing nothing at all but being present to the suffering of that person."

This!  This is worth repeating!  emoticon

J J, modified 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 10:25 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 10:25 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 225 Join Date: 3/31/14 Recent Posts
I believe it was Chogyam Trungpa that compared compassion to an open sore, it's like an open wound that hurts to the touch, it really speaks to vulnerability of compassion. He also spoke of bodhicitta as an immense strength, a black and blue toughness, simultaneously he also said that Awakened beings feel more pain because they are so sensitive.

I believe these quotes are in his "Bodhisattva Path of Wisdom and Compassion", I'd have to check though.
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 10:42 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/6/14 10:42 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
Thank you James Yen.  I have been waiting for your input.
J J, modified 9 Years ago at 9/7/14 12:59 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/7/14 12:58 AM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 225 Join Date: 3/31/14 Recent Posts
Hi, yes.

Quotes are here if you'd like to see:

-Awakened beings suffering-



-Black and blue-



-Open wound pt. 1-



-Open wound pt. 2-



Cheers,

James
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Jeremy Kranz, modified 9 Years ago at 9/7/14 11:34 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/7/14 4:49 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 15 Join Date: 7/28/12 Recent Posts
I have had several teachers that clearly could read my mind.  They used their ability to guide us to deeper states of understanding.  About thirty years ago one of my teachers, Ruth, would lead us through various stages often stating the name of the stage or state when we experience it.  For those of you who have had a personal trainer you may realize that a trainer can push you further than you can normally do on your own.  Ruth is such a person.  At one point while on my fourth retreat with her I attainted SE and I assume along with others because she said, “and I call these experiences stream entry experiences”.

Also, as a high school math teacher I sometimes think I can tell how my students are doing.  For example, if I am explaining a concept I can sometimes get a sense when they are saturated. 
Blue Jay, modified 9 Years ago at 10/31/14 2:57 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/31/14 2:22 AM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 95 Join Date: 1/19/14 Recent Posts
Ok, rereading almost all of this thread, I realised I messed up. I messed up really bad!

I've been infatuated with a friend of mine for a long time. She is married now. In the summer of 2013 I started noticing that she was not happy at all. I'm pretty sure she didn't want to marry her husband. And the more I looked at her eyes in the following months, the more in panic I would become. It crushes my heart to see that she's unhappy. Because I was dealing with really dificult stuff myself I unconsciously "allowed" myself to get into a fantasy. I read her facebook posts and got the impression that some of them were cries for help. And I really got convinced that she wanted to leave her husband and be with me, because he cheated on her and she was very unhappy. The only thing out of these I know to be true is that she was unhappy. So I spoke to her about me being in love with her. Yes, I know... emoticon

She told me three different times that she wasn't remotely interested. Now I have a ticking bomb on my hands. How can I be with my friends again, including her, when I've messed up this bad? People will look at me like I'm a horrible person. I was really trying to do the right thing. I would never touch her if she was commited. But who the hell is going to believe that? And in my deluded fantasy, there was a moment where I felt I had an excellent opportunity for that. And I refused to act on my desires because she was commited.

Crap!

I don't know how I will solve this. But this is an excellent lesson on making decisions based on the use of our intuition, mixed with our own defilements. I guess letting go is the best thing to do now.
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 10/31/14 10:14 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/31/14 10:14 AM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
I adore you!!

You need to let go of many things so that you can progress with less pain.

You learned a good lesson, but I believe that you did 1. know her mind in part and 2. will now see where imagination may have crept in.

Learning this lesson is a credit to you!  Many, many, many people would not have the introspection and the bravery to question themselves and admit their wrongs.

It is a horrible lesson!  Very big and painful!

Only future Buddhas ever have such lessons.  

I am no longer ever wrong when I KNOW someone.  But, like I have said, I no longer need to demonstrate this ability.  I am free from such horrible lessons.  So practice!  Practice when it doesn't matter.  And Be Still if it does matter. 

Keep Going!!
Blue Jay, modified 9 Years ago at 10/31/14 2:36 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/31/14 2:36 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 95 Join Date: 1/19/14 Recent Posts
Wow! Thank you!

It's funny that I never considered that I was inebriated with this ability. It never occoured to me that I was even capable of stoping. I never had a good reason to stop. I never knew concrete information. It was just emotions that I've seen, never thoughts. But I know too much, that's for sure. I thought to myself that I couldn't pluck my eyes out and not see what I've been seeing lately. But when today the time came to try and let go of this power, or ability, attachment jumped right to the center of my mind. I remembered one event about three weeks ago when I voluntarily turned my mind away from progressing this ability to the next level. And it stopped the development. Today I started turning my mind away from the present mode of perception and I managed to do it a lot better than I would expect. My compromise was to only exert this power when it was of bennefit to others or it was of a wholesome bennefit to me. And it worked. "With no power, comes no responsability." I'm not mature enough to use this ability properly.

The above case was not the only one when this ability done more harm than good. The very fact that I'm unconfortable with some things that I see makes them worse sometimes. And I don't even know what bad fruits might come later... So, for the time being, I will turn my mind away from actively using this.

Yes, I started figuring out why I can't let go of her, and especialy why I can't watch her suffer like that. Whenever I try to stop this obsession I only go back to it when I realise how much in pain she is. It has a lot to do with my personal experiences. I really wish I could do something, but I can't. I'm only making it worse. Time to move on for good.
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H McElroy, modified 9 Years ago at 11/5/14 4:44 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/5/14 4:44 PM

RE: Knowing other minds

Posts: 17 Join Date: 9/25/14 Recent Posts
I've recently noticed being able to feel other people's emotions, and it ALMOST matches the feelings of when I have an emotion (when I "can" see them as color-vibration-sound thingies in my body). It seems like when it's coming from someone else, I feel it on my skin more? Maybe?

Well, it's been helpful in understanding that other people's feelings are not mine... which is an interesting discovery, especially in the fact that I find it new.... emoticon

Anyone else have expereinces like this? Any advice on what you do with it? Was it related to any other experiences?

Thanks

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