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Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience

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https://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/leary_timothy/leary_timothy_lsd1.shtml

I figure this is a worthy topic to kick off the drug section.

WARNING: I have not personally tried this experiment nor do I know of anyone who has, so I have no idea if it will work. Follow these instructions at your own risk. Contrary to some misconceptions, Leary was probably the foremost expert on safe and transformative LSD trips, so if you follow the instructions carefully you'll probably be safe and it might just work.

What is the goal? Classic Hinduism suggests four possibilities:
  1. Increased personal power, intellectual understanding, sharpened
    insight into self and culture, improvement of life situation,
    accelerated learning, professional growth.
  2. Duty, help of others, providing care, rehabilitation, rebirth for
    fellow men.
  3. Fun, sensuous enjoyment, esthetic pleasure, interpersonal closeness,
    pure experience.
  4. Trancendence, liberation from ego and space-time limits; attainment of
    mystical union.
The manual's primary emphasis on the last goal does not preclude other goals - in fact, it guarantees their attainment because illumination requires that the person be able to step out beyond problems of personality, role, and professional status. The initiate can decide before hand to devote their psychedelic experience to any of the four goals.

In the extroverted transcendent experience, the self is ecstatically fused with external objects (e.g., flowers, other people). In the introverted state, the self is ecstatically fused with internal life processes (lights, energy waves, bodily events, biological forms, etc.). Either state may be negative rather than positive, depending on the voyager's set and setting. For the extroverted mystic experience, one would bring to the session candles, pictures, books, incense, music, or recorded passages to guide the awareness in the desired direction. An introverted experience requires eliminating all stimulation: no light, no sound, no smell, no movement.

...

Preparation

Psychedelic chemicals are not drugs in the usual sense of the word. There is no specific somatic or psychological reaction. The better the preparation, the more ecstatic and relevatory the session. In initial sessions with unprepared persons, set and setting - particularly the actions of others - are most important. Long-range set refers to personal history, enduring personality, the kind of person you are. Your fears, desires, conflicts, guilts, secret passions, determine how you interpret and manage any psychedelic session. Perhaps more important are the reflex mechanisms, defenses, protective maneuvers, typically employed when dealing with anxiety. Flexibility, basic trust,philosophic faith, human openness, courage, interpersonal warmth, creativity, allow for fun and easy learning. Rigidity, desire to control, distrust, cynicism, narrowness, cowardice, coldness, make any new situation threatening. Most important is insight. The person who has some understanding of his own machinery, who can recognize when he is not functioning as he would wish, is better able to adapt to any challenge - even the sudden collapse of his ego.

Immediate set refers to expections about the session itself. People naturally tend to impose personal and social perspectives on any new situation. For example, some ill-prepared subjects unconsciously impose a medical model on the experience. They look for symptoms, interpret each new sensation in terms of sickness/health, and, if anxiety develops, demand tranquilizers. Occasionally, ill-planned sessions end  in the subject demanding to see a doctor.

Rebellion against convention may motivate some people who take the drug. The naive idea of doing something "far out" or vaguely naughty can cloud the experience.

LSD offers vast possibilities of accelerated learning and scientific-scholarly research, but for initial sessions, intellectual reactions can become traps. "Turn your mind off" is the best advice for novitiates. After you have learned how to move your consciousness around - into ego loss and back, at will - then intellectual exercises can be incorporated into the psychedelic experience. The objective is to free you from your verbal mind for as long as possible.

Religious expectations invite the same advice. Again, the subject in early sessions is best advised to float with the stream, stay "up" as long as possible, and postpone theological interpretations.

Recreational and esthetic expectations are natural. The psychedelic experience provides ecstatic moments that dwarf any personal or cultural game. Pure sensation can capture awareness. Interpersonal intimacy reaches Himalayan heights. Esthetic delights - musical, artistic, botanical, natural - are raised to the millionth power. But ego-game reactions - "I am having this ecstasy. How lucky I am!" - can prevent the subject from reaching pure ego loss.

...

The Period of Ego Loss or Non-Game Ecstasy

Success implies very unusual preparation in consciousness expansion, as well as much calm, compassionate game playing (good karma) on the part of the participant. If the participant can see and grasp the idea of the empty mind as soon as the guide reveals it -that is to say, if he has the power to die consciously- and, at the supreme moment of quitting the ego, can recognize the ecstasy that will dawn upon him and become one with it, then all bonds of illusion are broken asunder immediately: the dreamer is awakened into reality simultaneously with the mighty achievement of recognition.

It is best if the guru from whom the participant received guiding instructions is present. But if the guru cannot be present, then another experienced person, or a person the participant trusts, should be available to read this manual without imposing any of his own games. Thereby the participant will be put in mind of what he had previosly heard of the experience.

Liberation is the nervous system devoid of mental-conceptual redundancy. The mind in its conditioned state, limited to words and ego games, is continuously in thought-formation activity. The nervous system in a state of quiescence, alert, awake but not active, is comparable to what Buddhists call the highest state of dhyana (deep meditation). The conscious recognition of the Clear Light induces an ecstatic condition of consciousness such as saints and mystics of the West have called illumination.

The first sign is the glimpsing of the "Clear Light of Reality, the infallible mind of the pure mystic state" - an awareness of energy transformations with no imposition of mental categories.

The duration of this state varies, depending on the individual's experience, security, trust, preparation, and the surroundings. In those who have a little practical experience of the tranquil state of non-game awareness, this state can last from 30 minutes to several hours. Realization of what mystics call the "Ultimate Truth" is possible, provided that the person has made sufficient preparation beforehand. Otherwise he cannot benefit now, and must wander into lower and lower conditions of hallucinations until he drops back to routine reality.

It is important to remember that the consciousness-expansion is the reverse of the birth process, the ego-loss experiencee being a temporary ending of game life, a passing from one state of consciousness into another. Just as an infant must wake up and learn from experience the nature of this world, so a person must wake up in this new brilliant world of consciousness expansion and become familiar with its own peculiar conditions.

In those heavily dependant on ego games, who dread giving up control, the illuminated state endures only for a split second. In some, it lasts as long as the time taken for eating a meal. If the subject is prepared to diagnose the symptoms of ego-loss, he needs no outside help at this point. The person about to give up his ego should be able to recognize the Clear Light. If the person fails to recognize the onset of ego-loss, he may complain of strange bodily symptoms that show he has not reached a liberated state:
  1. Bodily pressure
  2. Clammy coldness followed by feverish heat
  3. Body disintegrating or blown to atoms
  4. Pressure on head and ears
  5. Tingling in extremities
  6. Feelings of body melting or flowing like wax
  7. Nausea
  8. Trembling or shaking, beginning in pelvic region and spreading up torso.
The guide or friend should explain that the symptoms indicate the onset of ego-loss. These physical reactions are signs heralding transcendence: avoid treating them as symptoms of illness. The subject should hail stomach messages as a sign that consciousness is moving around in the body. Experience the sensation fully, and let consciousness flow on to the next phase. It is usually more natural to let the subject's attention move from the stomach and concentrate on breathing and heartbeat. If this does not free him from nausea, the guide should move the consciousness to external events - music, walking in the garden, etc. As a last resort, heave.

The physical symptoms of ego-loss, recognized and understood, should result in peaceful attainment of illumination. The simile of a needle balanced and set rolling on a thread is used by the lamas to elucidate this condition. So long as the needle retains its balance, it remains on the thread. Eventually, however, the pull of the ego or external stimulation affects it, and it falls. In the realm of the Clear Light, similarly, a person in the ego-transcendent state momentarily enjoys a condition of perfect equilibrium and oneness. Unfamiliar with such an ecstatic non-ego state, the average consciousness lacks the power to function in it. Thoughts of personality, individualized being, dualism, prevent the realization of nirvana (the "blowing out of the flame" of fear or selfishness). When the voyager is clearly in a profound ego-transcendent ecstasy, the wise guide remains silent.

For more info about tripping safely for purposes of exploration and achieving imprints see The Psychedelic Experience by Leary.

More info about Timothy Leary's LSD research:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCTWR4kJDa0

Any impatient, brave souls out there?

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/6/14 4:46 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
I've never really understood "ego loss" as used in the psychoactive community. What is it, exactly? And are we using Freud's definition of ego or something else?

I am familiar with the "Clear Light" terminology because of this book on dream yoga, but I've never equated it with ego loss. 


RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/6/14 5:11 PM as a reply to Eric M W.
The word has become practically meaningless, but I assume he's referring to the sense of Watcher, Doer, Perceiver, Defender. If I understand correctly, he's recommending Third Gear pointers during the trip so as to surrender the sense of self and get a taste of consciousness without conceptualization, categorization, or 'mental-conceptual redundancy' -- the Clear Light... assuming the sense of self is just another redunant conceptual overlay or distortion.

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/6/14 5:43 PM as a reply to Eric M W.
Eric M W:
I've never really understood "ego loss" as used in the psychoactive community. What is it, exactly? And are we using Freud's definition of ego or something else?

I am familiar with the "Clear Light" terminology because of this book on dream yoga, but I've never equated it with ego loss. 

See Tommy McNally's thread http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3081514 "LSD & PCE: An Empirical Experiment" -- he expresses his insights into anatta and experience of PCE in this thread along with experimentation on LSD.

Regarding 'ego loss' -- there are different degrees and faces of self/Self (as I explained in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.br/2014/07/insight-diagnosis-simplified.html). Some people are able to experience the total dissolution of self/Self resulting in No Mind experience. AF Richard said his path to Actual Freedom began in 1980 after ingesting a psychedelic drug called psylocibin, resulting in a 4 hour PCE experience. (However, he does not recommend psychedelics in general as it often leads to an ASC or 'Big Self experience'. Personally, I do not have anything against an 'ASC' even if it means there is not yet the complete dissolution of all self/Self) Some people experience impersonality and dissolution into an impersonal all-pervasive greater Life. Of course, the results of psychedelics differs on each individual.

In any case, usually psychedelics can at most result in only transient, peak experiences. Tommy seems to have some fundamental insights that lastingly shifted his perception during a LSD trip, but that is probably because he had already been engaging in some heavy contemplation for a long time prior to it.

Anyway here's another thread on ego loss:

http://www.reddit.com/r/LSD/comments/1z4euc/ego_death/

Ego Death(self.LSD)submitted 7 months ago by dalebewanRecently, a few people have asked me about "ego death" over on my facebook page and I've seen a few posts here mentioning it.There seems to be a few misconceptions out there, so let me try to clear it up.Ego death is a specific experience that can occur on high doses of psychedelics (such as LSD; but by no means limited to LSD).A lot of people describe any powerful psychedelic experience as 'ego
death'. This is wrong. You can have extremely powerful experiences
without ego death.Other people describe the sudden realisation of one's place in the
universe (tiny and insignificant) as ego death. This is also wrong.Yet more people describe powerful "bad trips" where they experience
something akin to their own death as "ego death". Also, this is wrong.These misunderstandings come from a false understanding of the
phrase. "Ego" in this case doesn't mean egotistical, it simply means "the self".What the experience of ego death is, is the loss of the sense of self
entirely. The words "I", "me", "myself" and so on have no meaning in
this state. Normally, you can divide the world in to "myself" and
"everything outside of myself". When experiencing ego death, the
"myself" part is gone. Everything else is still there (potentially the
real world; potentially a fantasy world), but YOU are not. The
experience still exists, and when your ego returns, the "you" that has
come back can (usually) remember the environment that was, but has no
way to explain - even to itself - what it was that experienced that
environment.It's a very difficult experience to explain of course; because human
languages are totally unsuited to the explanation of an environment
without something experiencing it (the idea of "looking at" or "hearing"
or "feeling" are all experiences that 'someone' has. Without a
'someone', how do you describe it?).If someone talks about an ego death experience and says "I saw..." or
especially "I felt...", they're not talking about ego death. The kinds
of words that someone might use would be more along the lines of "there
was...". Not "I felt at peace", but "there was peace". Not "I saw
light", but "there was light".I've experienced ego death a total of 5 times in my life and I
remember each one vividly to this day. It's not scary as it's happening,
because there is no "you" to be scared. The first time I experienced
it, I was extremely scared afterwards - I had no idea how to explain it
to myself. Once I processed it, I became more comfortable with it, and
now I can honestly say I look forward to the next time.Wikipedia's explanation is possibly about as clumsy as mine, but if my description didn't help you, maybe it can.

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/6/14 6:00 PM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
Perfect link, thank you. Tommy's experience seems to confirm that LSD can be used to gain insight. I would be fascinated to read similar experiences and see if there's a consensus or trend. SWIM might try similar experiments with shrooms or even MDMA.

I wonder the full extent to which the setup can influence the experience. I imagine that a carefully crafted setting, with a week+ of affirming resolutions towards generalized goals would probably yield optimal benefits. Using Leary's general guidelines I believe the DhO could write even more pointy pointers for seeing the Clear Light, having a PCE, etc

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/6/14 7:02 PM as a reply to Eric M W.
Eric M W:
I've never really understood "ego loss" as used in the psychoactive community. What is it, exactly? And are we using Freud's definition of ego or something else?

Check out the wiki link - Sense_of_agency It will explain it from a psychology point of view....there are other things that make up the self besides just sense of agency and sense of ownership... Check out the book "The Ego Tunnel" for a more in depth discussion of the various processes that create the selfing process. It's a really good book.
~D

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/7/14 4:18 AM as a reply to Dada Kind.
I hope you do not get the false impression that drugs are a path of insight... they are not. They can result in peak experiences, they can set a person (often having no prior experiences with spirituality) into a path of spiritual seeking, they generally do not end seeking. It may be helpful to some in the sense that many people started their path towards awakening through whatever transient glimpses and experiences they may have had with psychedelics.

But we should not have false expectations that psychedelics will somehow result in the 'final awakening' or 'the end of seeking'. There simply is no instant enlightenment pill. No amount of psychedelics can replace the vital role of a strong contemplative practice (e.g. hardcore vipassana practice, or zazen/koan/mahamudra/dzogchen, etc etc). That would only be possible through earnest vipassana (or any form of insight practices) practice. Sometimes people attain awakening when meditating, for me it was when I was marching in the army and contemplating on the Bahiya Sutta, some people got enlightened when hearing a cup break, very few (Tommy the only one I heard -- I believe he already attained the higher MCTB paths prior to that) attained some strong insight while on psychedelics. It can happen in any setting as long as one is already having a contemplative practice going on. Psychedelics may be a short cut to glimpses and peak experiences, but not a short cut to liberation.

When your contemplative practice is strong, (e.g. directly apperceiving the three characteristics in every sensation), it naturally carries on in all states and experiences -- be it when using psychedelics, or marching, or meditating, etc. That is the main trigger for insight... not any particular setting imo (although it is important to have good setting).

Also, I personally do not practice AF, so I do not follow the path of 'cultivating PCEs'. To me, PCE becomes natural and effortless as the result of insights and realization, so it is best to focus on that (insight) rather than experiences. (On this topic, see http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.de/2014/02/no-mind-and-anatta-focusing-on-insight.html)

Experience is not realization, realization is not liberation. Full actualization of insight/realization and release of all karmic propensities and fetters is liberation.

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/7/14 5:13 AM as a reply to Dada Kind.
Droll Dedekind:
Perfect link, thank you. Tommy's experience seems to confirm that LSD can be used to gain insight. I would be fascinated to read similar experiences and see if there's a consensus or trend. SWIM might try similar experiments with shrooms or even MDMA.

I wonder the full extent to which the setup can influence the experience. I imagine that a carefully crafted setting, with a week+ of affirming resolutions towards generalized goals would probably yield optimal benefits. Using Leary's general guidelines I believe the DhO could write even more pointy pointers for seeing the Clear Light, having a PCE, etc


Recently I read two books on DMT. "DMT, the spirit molecule" and "Tryptamine Palace: 5-MeO-DMT and the Sonoran Desert Toad". Those two books really changed my views about entheogens in general. Some of the stuff in Tryptamine Palace is pure speculation and wishfull thinking though. I'm just not ready to accept speculations on "zero point field" and human consciousness. Oh and A. Huxley's  "Dors of perception".  Lots of descritpions of "no self" experiences in those books. Intruiging to say the least.

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/7/14 8:59 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
Yes, I agree completely, besides maybe "release of all karmic propensities and fetters is liberation".

Israel Regardie took a sane position on all this. He was an advocate of the Golden Dawn system of magick. Great Work = Enlightenment
Hyatt:
Some people in the occult field are very critical about the use of what are known as psychedelic drugs. What is your feeling about this?
Regardie:
I'd have to remark first of all, that the Golden Dawn, perse, never approved of the use of psychedelics or any drugs. That's only one part of the story. The other pan of the story is that throughout history, as far back as we can go, we know there is evidence, that many of the gurus in India, Tibet, Israel, and other parts of the world, relied on the use of psychedelics for many purposes. Crowley probably had the wisest and sanest approach to this whole problem, and that was that the beginner in the Great Work only has vague hopes of achieving certain psycho-spiritual states; he has no direct knowledge of them. Therefore, with the judicial use of some of these drugs he might be given a foretaste of where he is going, and what he is working for. Once he tasted that, once having experienced that, he might be willing to make the expenditure of time and effort in following the other exercises and disciplines that would help him to get to where he wants to go without the aid of drugs.
Hyatt:
Some people who I have talked to over the years have said that there is no need for psychotherapy, no need for the Golden Dawn, no need for self-work. They firmly believe that the simple use of these substances would be more than sufficient to bring a person to their higher and divine self.
Regardie:
Totally untrue as I know you would agree from your own observations. I don't think there is any evidence to support and warrant that. The drugs produce a state which is akin and analogous to some of the mystical states. But as the drug wears off, so does the state wear off, and there is very little recollection and very little endurance of the psychedelic state. So therefore, that idea really doesn't hold water. The combination of the use of the psychedelics AND the various disciplines, train the mind, train the psyche, train the organism of the student or the practitioner, to retain within his consciousness,  within his organism  not  merely consciousness per se, but to retain the memory of the spiritual state he has experienced, and therefore enable him AT WILL to return to that state whenever he so desires.

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/7/14 12:53 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
Daniel had a post quite a while ago where he said that he wished there was a way to give people "peeks" of 4th path, using some kind of pharmaceuticals or other means. Something like "This procedure will remove any sense of agency/doer/perceiver for approx. 30 minutes, if you do vipassana your experience can be like this all the time."

Let us know how this person's experience goes, it could be interesting.

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/8/14 12:54 AM as a reply to Eric M W.
Eric M W:
Daniel had a post quite a while ago where he said that he wished there was a way to give people "peeks" of 4th path, using some kind of pharmaceuticals or other means. Something like "This procedure will remove any sense of agency/doer/perceiver for approx. 30 minutes, if you do vipassana your experience can be like this all the time."

Let us know how this person's experience goes, it could be interesting.

Reminds me of this quote....A Definition of Hell

Chris Marti:
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

Seeing the world as it is, having at least once pierced the veil in front of you, yet not able to abide in that frame of reference.
I had a peek and would say there is frustration in this...but what is needed in this moment, to fix this moment...looking carefully at this - do I need a drug, cookie, exercise, thought, memory of a peek, meditation, etc  to "fix" now? It is laughable, except it isn't; until the joke plays out.
~D

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/8/14 4:34 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
I agree with the point about entheogens not ending seeking, or at least that I know of no reports of such, and I know a lot of people who have done A LOT of entheogens, some over decades. I don't see any of them who have the deep wisdom and direct comprehension, the walking-around perceptual baseline transformations, or the ability on their own power to access the things that I see at the more accomplished end of those who do vipassana and samatha well. It is not that some of them haven't gained some relative wisdom from those experiences, as some have, but the more fundamental stuff I don't see happening from those things.

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/8/14 1:01 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I don't think anyone here believes entheogens cause any significant lasting change in themselves. But, with a proper set and setting I do believe lasting changes can be made. At least, psychological changes are definitely possible. I believe Leary conceived of it like this: If entheogens were legal there would be professionals whose job is to help people plan reimprinting trips, and then guide people through the trip (or several trips) in a safe environment with the appropriate props. IIRC, for example, Leary took a group of prisoners, gave them LSD, and then in a safe environment showed them art, played classical music, and read from the Buddhist canon. After a year of being out of jail something like 80% of the prisoners remained out of prison. I believe on average 80% of prisoners are back in jail after a year of being let out.

I also think it's plausible that entheogens can be used judiciously to have mystical experiences, and possibly, a "Clear Light" experience (however temporary). How many of the people you know setup the trip with intentions of attaining to mystical states? Did they bring pointers and/or a guru/teacher to the trip?

I'm with Crowley and Regardie on this, as I quoted in an earlier post. Having a taste of mystical states can be highly motivating.

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/9/14 2:50 AM as a reply to Dada Kind.
Droll Dedekind:
I don't think anyone here believes entheogens cause any significant lasting change in themselves. But, with a proper set and setting I do believe lasting changes can be made. At least, psychological changes are definitely possible. I believe Leary conceived of it like this: If entheogens were legal there would be professionals whose job is to help people plan reimprinting trips, and then guide people through the trip (or several trips) in a safe environment with the appropriate props. IIRC, for example, Leary took a group of prisoners, gave them LSD, and then in a safe environment showed them art, played classical music, and read from the Buddhist canon. After a year of being out of jail something like 80% of the prisoners remained out of prison. I believe on average 80% of prisoners are back in jail after a year of being let out.

I also think it's plausible that entheogens can be used judiciously to have mystical experiences, and possibly, a "Clear Light" experience (however temporary). How many of the people you know setup the trip with intentions of attaining to mystical states? Did they bring pointers and/or a guru/teacher to the trip?

I'm with Crowley and Regardie on this, as I quoted in an earlier post. Having a taste of mystical states can be highly motivating.

Stanislav Grof did all that legaly until LSD was made Schedule 1 in 60/70. When LSD was banned he and his wife (RIP) developed new legal methods for helping patients and continue his work - holotropic breathing. He did thousands of hours of sitting with patients on LSD. He's a giant in the field.
One of his books well worth reading:
"LSD: Doorway to the Numinous: The Groundbreaking Psychedelic Research into Realms of the Human Unconscious by Stanislav Grof M.D."

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/9/14 6:59 AM as a reply to ftw.
I am actually most of the way through The Transpersonal Vision, an audiobook on Sounds True by Grof about all of that, and it is an enjoyable and intresting listen. Some of the stuff about early childhood stuff rings slightly naive to this post-Freudian ear, but what do I know? Still, his experiments and experiences were very interesting. My mom actually taught holotropic breathing for years and it actually caused a number of friends to cross the A&P while doing it.

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
10/9/14 7:37 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Maybe some of his hypothesis are a bit naive(NDE and birth canal). I believe though he's drawing his conclusions simply from the wast experience in the field. His post WW2 work in Prague in the field of psychedelic psychology is vast and almost unique. I'd like to see other scientist do the same and confirm or deny his theories.


Grof distinguishes between two modes of consciousness: the hylotropic and the holotropic.[5] The hylotropic refers to "the normal, everyday experience of consensus reality."[6] The holotropic refers to states which aim towards wholeness and the totality of existence. The holotropic is characteristic of non-ordinary states of consciousness such as meditative, mystical, or psychedelic experiences.[7] According to Grof, these non-ordinary states are often categorized by contemporary psychiatry as psychotic.[7] Grof connects the hylotropic to the Hindu conception of namarupa ("name and form"), the separate, individual, illusory self. He connects the holotropic to the Hindu conception of Atman-Brahman, the divine, true nature of the self.


Now isn't that an interesting view? Heh.

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
5/8/16 7:04 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
With little foreknowledge of anything Buddhist Book of the Dead there was a white light exposure and then a secondary clear light after I didn't expecially go with it (in the book it says the one who passed will see the White Light and if he "gets it" at that moment everything else ceases). I actually did feel that I got it because it was all and it was everything however it was via route by a chemical and so it seemed to proceed. The clear light experience was filled with 10,000 Horrible Visions but they were not altogether unpleasant, albeit frightening. I was on LSD and peyote. Clear off the first time the substance began to take hold and prior to the White Light there was the Shiva archetyle and I was taken on a ride through the cosmos- he appeared in the screen of a laptop computer and was small until I merged with him and then he was the size of a large adult male. I was sixteen and it was a heavy dose of LSD and peyote (in the liquid form). I had established fantastic transference with the person who gave me these substances and he took on a temporary guru role. In my mind I died over and over and finally upon giving up and going with it the whole thing kinda opened up into a vision of the clear land that was in technicolor. Anyone looking to repeat this perhaps could add some verified MDMA material into the chemical equation like I did to make it a love fest. I had two guides and weren't actively reading any of Leary and Alperts translations although they knew what they were doing. Every step of the way I narrated to them what was happening and in tight places we went by feeling tone. This was coming up on eight years ago. Perhaps I may also mention that 5-MeO-DMT was used to send off my rocket trip ship into orbit at the very beginning after a breif walk. Stay safe. Visit the library frequently if you wish to attempt anything with psychedelics, and educate yourself.

RE: Using LSD to Imprint the Tibetan-Buddhist Experience
Answer
5/9/16 1:45 AM as a reply to Eric M W.
Eric M W:
I've never really understood "ego loss" as used in the psychoactive community. What is it, exactly? And are we using Freud's definition of ego or something else?

I am familiar with the "Clear Light" terminology because of this book on dream yoga, but I've never equated it with ego loss. 



There are at least a few examples that can differ a bit from eachother but maybe they're the same thing, maybe not. One is where there is a disconnect from the egoic talking entity. The entity is heard as a kind of a disembodied troll voice that has nothing to do with myself. The voice can be experienced as weird to a hilarious degree... That voice was taken to be "me" before but now it's just a voice coming from an unseen source.

Then there's the total loss of sense of any kind of self while the apparent physical reality seemingly remains. With this loss of the sense of self goes the mental map of the world on the level of time (personal memories are not there as real anymore and no sense of self is derived from mind activity) and space (the mental structure of the surroundings that the individual brain has formed has vanished). Also no sense of being a point of experience in space-time. No time, no space. All form is void.

Then the flipside of the void is "all is full, all is myself only". This is the same void actually and there is no separate ego to it. The term "myself" doesn't refer to any particular one here.

The last that comes to mind is a total extinction of everything perceivable. Nothing seen, no seer, no physicality, no non-physicality, no energy, no thoughts. Beyond everything and anything describable. Beyond zero. Beyond death and birth of all the apparent possible universes and lifelines. Not even beyond really, because even that concept doesn't really exist beyond death and the apparent world. The words that came after this body got seemingly formed again seemingly was "perfect death" (no reincarnation, no phenomena etc.).
      I've read one person describe something similar. Relevant to the topic: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1427364&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1

Later I found out that the infinite potentiality is pointed out in Buddhism with terms like Adi-Buddha and maybe also Dharmadhatu.

edit:

Btw. I'm not recommending taking psychedelics necessarily. Especially not the high doses by oneself. At least not without a proper guide. It can fuck one's life up within society and it can leave the psyche in a really difficult place for a long time. I speak from my own experience (so to speak). Anyway, if the pull to try/use them is there, then that will probably happen so.. Ultimately it's no one's choice to do them or not do them.

Oh, and after making the whole post about what is beyond all, I must make the reminder/pointer that this is already it. There is never any actual separation. Like Ramana Maharshi said: The world is illusory; Brahman alone is real; Brahman is the world.