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Stream Entry
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11/24/14 6:51 AM
Hey Everyone!
     New here on this forum, just signed up today.  I just saw Daniel's interview with Rick Archer on Buddha at the gas pump, good stuff!

A little about my practice:
I meditated without instruction from a qualified teacher for about 4 months before I took my first U Ba Khin Vipassana course under Goenkaji (not personally).  I then kept a strong practice and sat two other retreats that same year (One self retreat and one at a temple here in Korea)  both were more of a Mahasi style Vipassana, taking the entirety of sense experience into account, not exclusively tactile sensation.  

After awhile I came across Shinzen Young (Who I consider my primary teacher at this point) so that's where I'm at now!  I don't see much reason for conflict between any of those traditions, in fact I think they all work harmoniously and have all worked for me.

So I have two experiences I wish to discuss here today.

After my first Goenka Vipassana course I had a very dramatic experience which, to this day, I can't really explain, however I do not consider it an enlightenment experience.  
Directly after the nobel silence was broken (literally, the instant I walked out of the hall) I was sort of hit by this very intense relief, which brought about gratitude and love and for a short while my entire being seemed to be totally consumed by this experience of love, gratitude and total clarity.  Nothing like that had ever happened to me before and never had I thought something like that could happen to a person like me.  This sort of sealed the deal for me in regards to meditation and the path:  I knew I was onto something very special and very serious.

I continued practicing daily and going on retreats and this is where I would like to claim Stream Entry!

For no reason one day I just woke up and, as far as what was being percieved, I wasn't anything.  Everything was just simply "happening".  No dramatic feelings, no consumation with love or gratitude, just no identification with anything.  In fact, everything was as normal as it had ever been.  I went to work, had pleasurable expriences as well as nuetral and upleasant ones but there was simply no suffering.  The amazing thing was that I still felt everything, in fact I was more into everything than I had ever been, but none of it was problematic.  
This state continued unbroken for 3 days.  I would congeal and be "me" when people spoke to me or when I was out with friends, ect.  In the moments where I didnt need to do anything I would just dissolve into this "no self" experience.  Even when I did congeal it was as loose as possible, meaning there was still no suffering.

After awhile, as I expected, the experience started to fluctuate between a solid experience of self and this "no self" experience.  I have no control over it still to this day.  Even though it's very rare nowadays I still spontaneously slip in and out of this state for brief moments.  I just roll with it really!  When its there, its there, when its not, its just Concentration, Clarity and Equanimity to all of my experience, just as it was before Stream Entry (or so I think).

So what are the results of this?

Pros:
-Total confidence in the Teaching
-Sitting "Strong deterimination" for longer periods is easier
-Not the total extinguishing of suffering but much, much less friction, resistance and suffering in day to day life.  Like a LOT less.
-Not taking the self, the world and the other as seriously
-Less supression of the self when it is there - meaning more expression, more life, happiness, vitality, ect.
-Merging with experience - when I play music, get into a good conversation, etc.
-Much less need for people to hear my story about how great meditation is

Cons:
-Theres less drive to sit (Most of the time I only sit once per day as opposed to twice)
-At times I get myself into trouble socially.  Not breaking Sila by any means but I will say/do things I never used to.  I have become way less supressed. 
-Less drive in regards to career, social life, exercise, etc  -I see this also as a good thing, I see it as less seeking, less need for fufillment from the world.

Part of me thinks that the point of the path is not the state of no self as a goal, but moreso being able to embrace the changing between "self" and "no self" and not clinging or pushing away either of them (This is what you are told in most Traditions of vipassana however, it never made sense to me on this level until I had this experience).

Any comments or helpful advice/criticism is welcome!

Be Happy! 

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
11/28/14 7:05 AM as a reply to Conner Patrick Joyce.
Howdy CPJ and welcome.

from your list of pro's there is only one element missing that is included in the classic description of the changes one writes onto their ROM, and that is:  'disinterest in rites and rituals'

some contest this list and the definition of what stream entry is and what it means but for my money it is a pretty good general guide.

in this place most people base any kind of advice or "diagnosis" on consistant reliable practice and the sensations which arise in them. 

there are other phases in the progress of insight which lead to disinterest in meditation or general malaise.  if you do want to move ahead though regular meditation is the way ahead.

Good luck

Tom

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
11/28/14 11:16 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
Hey Tom and thanks for your reply!
     I guess rites and rituals were never really an interest to me, nor dogma so I assumed that went without saying, my bad!

I'm currently reading Daniel's book and this has put me back into the swing of things.  I'm also headed to Burma for 2 weeks to sit a retreat (signing up for retreats is my way of making sure I stay on track).

Thanks again for your message!

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/2/14 8:20 AM as a reply to Conner Patrick Joyce.
.. a great way to stay on track..retreats are the kind.  have a blast

tom

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/2/14 11:07 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
Hi

Awakening is divided in to 8 stages, the Sotapana, Sakadegami, Anagami and Arahant this individuals can have what is called the deliverance of
mind but not the fruition, so we have the first 4, when they obtain the fruition they become Sotapana with fruition, Sakadegami with fruition
etc. so we have the 8 kinds of individuals. Check this link for more information: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/sangha.html

Whatis the deliverance of mind? After emerging from a stage called the cessation of perception and feeling the practitioner will see the links
of dependent origination. Depending on the level of attainment the linkswill appear once for the sota two for the saka and so on. The links
happens very fast and they appear as blinks of light. If you stay on this level you can still be downgraded if you over indulge on sensual
pleasures or go around breaking precepts.

What is the fruition?
After seeing the links if the practitioner understands any of this linksin light of the four noble truths and the duties regarding every truth
then it will experience the fruition. After the fruition he or she will experience Nibbana which brings a very clear mind and an intense feeling
of happiness that can last for a long time, even days. It is said that Nibbana is unconditioned in the sense that the experience is not ruled
by the links of dependent origination. When the fruition is experienced the practitioner has locked in the attainment and cannot be downgraded.
The fruition brings a permanent improvement in personality you become more calmed and less reactive to situations. You start responding
instead or reacting.

Now what make your claim really interesting is that you seem to have attained both the mind deliverance and the fruition, you dont mention if you experience cessation but his can happen really fast and specially for the sota it might not be noticed, have you experienced anything like a blackout and then you come out of it and you know you werent there before but you dont have the drowsiness that you have when you wake up from sleep?

Have you seen at any time blinks of light a series of them? If yes those are the links of dependent origination.

The other things that match is the intense feeling of joy and the general exhuberance, this is Nibbana, the really wow thing is that you have seen a change in your daily life like a personality permanent change this is the result of the fruition, this cannot be acheived not even with the perception-no perception jhana.

I think you made it !!! congratulations and one weird tip, Uposatha days are days where is easier to achieve this stuff and the next one is on the 6th of Dec. so take this day to put more attention to your practice.

with Metta
dhammarelax

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/2/14 1:27 PM as a reply to Conner Patrick Joyce.
Conner Patrick Joyce:
Hey Everyone!
     New here on this forum, just signed up today.  I just saw Daniel's interview with Rick Archer on Buddha at the gas pump, good stuff!

Any comments or helpful advice/criticism is welcome!

Be Happy! 

Hello Conner

I enjoyed reading your post. Seeing clearly: (i) the relationship between 'selfing' & suffering and; (ii) the relationship between non-selfing & non-suffering so there arises absolute confidence about what the path is is certainly an attribute of stream-entry.

Best wishes with your practise. emoticon

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/2/14 1:57 PM as a reply to dhammarelax.
dhammarelax
What is the deliverance of mind? After emerging from a stage called the cessation of perception and feeling the practitioner will see the links of dependent origination. Depending on the level of attainment the links will appear once for the sota two for the saka and so on. The links happens very fast and they appear as blinks of light. If you stay on this level you can still be downgraded if you over indulge on sensual pleasures or go around breaking precepts.

I have never read before in scripture or about practise that emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling is required for comprending dependent origination. It is generally held the cessation of perception & feeling (compared to a dead person or corpse) is a concentration state only entered into by non-returners & arahants.

Where as the stream-enterer can comprehend dependent origination & should comprehend dependent origination if they draw attention to it.

In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications [in & out breaths] have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications [applied & sustained thoughts] ... his mental fabrications [perceptions & feelings] have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided & his [sense organ] faculties are scattered.

But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his faculties are exceptionally clear.

This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling

MN 43

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/2/14 3:55 PM as a reply to Nicky.
If you want to be technically accurate, nirodha-samapatti, referred to in the Canon as sanna-vedayita-nirodha is the attainment from which one emerges as an arahat.

Upon emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling, one emerges an arahat.

See the following passage:

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness without a sequel."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.043.than.html

In the discourse, the attainment of the jhanas and the formless spheres along with the touching of those bases, with the body, renders one a kaya-sakkhi, but only in the provisional sense.

The attainment of sanna-vedayita-nirodha renders one an arahat.

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/2/14 4:54 PM as a reply to J J.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness without a sequel."

What renders an arahant is seeing with discernment. The scriptures are quite clear that arahantship does not depend on nirodha-samapatti.  emoticon

O monks, the well-instructed noble disciple, seeing thus, gets wearied of form, gets wearied of feeling, gets wearied of perception, gets wearied of mental formations, gets wearied of consciousness. Being wearied he becomes passion-free. In his freedom from passion, he is emancipated. Being emancipated, there is the knowledge that he is emancipated. He knows: 'birth is exhausted, lived is the holy life, what had to be done is done, there is nothing more of this becoming.

This the Blessed One said. Pleased, the group of five monks were delighted with the exposition of the Blessed One; moreover, as this exposition was being spoken, the minds of the group of five monks were freed of defilements, without attachment.

Indeed, at that time there were six arahants in the world.

Anatta-lakkhana Sutta


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

AN 4.41


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"

No. We're released through discernment, friend Susima

Susima Sutta


RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/2/14 11:55 PM as a reply to Nicky.
Nah, nirodha-samapatti renders one an arahat. In that same vagga is a sutta that explains how realization of the Dharma depends on the cessation of perception and feeling.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html

There is no attainment of arahatship without nirodha-samapatt.

Neither is there an attainment of arahatship with a residue of greed, hatred or delusion. An arahat possesses no sensual desire, or ill will, let alone infractional precepts.

This is not a place to qualify what an arahat is, but I will leave you with this quote:

http://i.gyazo.com/decbb1075947b083395854b19ecbb30c.png

Read the sutta. There is no wiggle room. Seeing with wisdom or discernment in an earlier jhana means only panna-vimutta in a provisional sense.

Only when sanna-vedayita-nirodha is achieved and one sees with wisdom is there non-provisional arahatship.

Wrong views are the cause of a lot of trouble on this forum, of otherwise dedicated practitioners.

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/3/14 3:17 AM as a reply to Nicky.
Hi Nicky

I didnt mean to give the idea that what I described is the only perceived way to achieve stream entry nor to Sakadegami, is my undestanding that this 2 attainments can be achieved without the practice of meditation, while the Anagami and Arahant need meditation, I am saying this becasue if you are not a meditator or even if you are not meditating while you achieve cessation there is more chance that this can go by unnoticed, so if someone claims to attain Stream entry without cessation to my eyes is understandable becasue it can happen very fast, now to claim Stream entry with fruition has more certainty in to it becasue with the fruition you will experience Nibbana which includes a strong feeling of happiness, and you will see a permanent positive personality change, because this change is permanent its easy to observe and verify.

Keep your smile all the time
dhammarelax 

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/3/14 9:49 PM as a reply to dhammarelax.
Hi dhammarelax,

My experience of conditioned arising (aka dependent origination) has been quite different. Here's a description from my recently published practice memoir, Silicon Valley Monk:
One morning I was sitting in the meditation hall in deep concentration following the sensations in my back as they appeared and disappeared. I noticed something peculiar, a series of icons like those used in computer user interfaces. The icons would appear one after another, starting with one that looked like a lightning bolt, followed very quickly by a tiny blip that I couldn’t identify, then by another icon of hands pushing something away. The series always ended in awareness of pain, followed by a movement. I watched the series scroll by three times before my mindfulness weakened and my mind moved elsewhere.
It occured about a month and a half into a vipassana retreat at IMS in 1996, when my mindfulness was honed to a very fine edge. The lightning bolt icon was contact (pain), the tiny blip that I couldn't identify was feeling (unpleasant), the pushing away hands icon was craving (in this case due to the unpleasant nature, turning away), and the awareness of pain was craving, the movement becoming. I was watching the sequence in the lower left side of my back. I subsequently experienced liberation from suffering from a particular sequence (but not conditioned arising in general) in the aftermath of a bicycle accident in the early 2000's by applying strong mindfulness to the arising of craving. The rest of the links didn't occur.

Here's how the Twelve Links of Conditioned Arising are described in the suttas:
That is, with ignorance as condition, volitional formations come to be.
With volitional formations as condition, consciousness comes to be.
With consciousness as condition, name and form come to be.
With name and form as condition, the six sense bases come to be.
With the six sense bases as condition, contact comes to be.
With contact as condition, feeling comes to be.
With feeling as condition, craving comes to be.
With craving as condition, clinging comes to be.
With clinging as condition, becoming comes to be.
With becoming as condition, birth comes to be.
With birth as condition, old age and death comes to be.
Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

               The Buddha, Book of Causation, VII(61),  Samyutta Nikaya
This list is very specific about the nature of the links.

I don't claim any attainments except maybe multiple A&P events (as Daniel describes them in his book) though I'm working toward First Path.

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/4/14 1:46 AM as a reply to dhammarelax.
[quote=
]Now what make your claim really interesting is that you seem to have attained both the mind deliverance and the fruition, you dont mention if you experience cessation but his can happen really fast and specially for the sota it might not be noticed, have you experienced anything like a blackout and then you come out of it and you know you werent there before but you dont have the drowsiness that you have when you wake up from sleep?

Have you seen at any time blinks of light a series of them? If yes those are the links of dependent origination.


Thanks a lot for the post.  Most definitely no abrupt or dramatic experiences at all.  It was very very subtle.  Actually in reflection of the morning all this happened:  It took my a few hours to really notice that I wasn't suffering, it was kind of a "This is interesting...and different, theres absolutely no resistance, and theres no me.  Just walking up stairs, etc"  I would have these thoughts, and I would have feelings but there was absolutely no substance to it.

Now all this being said I've read further in Daniel's book and Im skeptical for a few reasons:

-I haven't been cycling over and over through the stages as said should happen.  All I noticed was that for weeks I would be a separate self and then I wouldn't randomly for certain amounts of time (no more than one day).  Maybe I was cycling and I didn't notice all the stages due to my ignorance of the maps?

-I'm still trying to get a grasp of all the Vocabulary and concepts in Daniel's book.

-I still suffer and make tons of mistakes.

-There was no "blip" of the mind, the resetting, the losing consciousness, etc.  That was one of Daniel's requirements.


It is also said that the first four Jhanas become available to a Sotapanna.  Unless I'm dramatically underestimating my experiences of bliss on the cushion, I definitely do not think I've attained the 3rd or 4th Jhanas.

All I really know for sure is that the suffering in my life has dramatically decreased.  I have total faith in the practice and teaching.  Other than that theres nothing special really.  I have tons of moments where I sit down for an hour, totally scattered and no concentration.  And even times when I can't get through the sit.  

I've got one foot in yes, one foot in no, and one foot in "Who really gives a shit, keep practicing"  (I understand that I would have to have 3 feet  in order to make this analogy work, its just a freakin' analogy!!  ;)  )

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/4/14 2:30 AM as a reply to J J.
J J:

Only when sanna-vedayita-nirodha is achieved and one sees with wisdom is there non-provisional arahatship.

Wrong views are the cause of a lot of trouble on this forum, of otherwise dedicated practitioners.

The quoting of a sutta that includes the cessation of perception & feeling does not make right view. The discourses are clear, as was quoted. The extent of required samadhi is explicit in the 8 fold path. emoticon 

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/4/14 2:45 AM as a reply to Conner Patrick Joyce.
Conner Patrick Joyce:

All I really know for sure is that the suffering in my life has dramatically decreased.  I have total faith in the practice and teaching.  Other than that theres nothing special really.  I have tons of moments where I sit down for an hour, totally scattered and no concentration.  And even times when I can't get through the sit.  

I've got one foot in yes, one foot in no, and one foot in "Who really gives a shit, keep practicing"  (I understand that I would have to have 3 feet  in order to make this analogy work, its just a freakin' analogy!!  ;)  )

There are many different opinions. The scriptures say the stream-enterer has abandoned self-belief (although self-view can still arise when mindfulness is lost), abandoned wrong views about the efficacy of precepts & rituals and has ended all doubt about what the path is.

I trust these 3 things are enough. To feel suffering end is the most wonderful gift. emoticon

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?"

The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth — this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail — when compared with the great earth

In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater:.. it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering.

That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn13/sn13.001.than.html

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/4/14 4:27 PM as a reply to svmonk.
Hi svmonk

Congratulations for your experience !!! to me it sounds like you saw the links, the fact that the links appeared in different shapes is totally new to me but I think is a positive one because that makes them easier to identify, the fact that you saw them three times is very exciting as well, what did you experience after the rest of the links didnt ocur in the second experience?

I have seen partial sets of links as well without cessation but they didnt change me on a permanent basis, the most recent one I was thinking on MN 44 when she answers that the counterpart of neutral feelings is ignorance and I saw a neutral feeling and I let it go and then the links appeard but they were only four and I saw them only once without feeling anyhting special afterewards.

My understading is that in order to achieve Nirvana you need to let go of one of the links, the fact that the series finished doenst necesarily mean you have let go of one.

Keep smiling all the time
Dhammarelax

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/4/14 4:34 PM as a reply to Conner Patrick Joyce.
Hi Conner Patrick Joyce

What does it mean  "cycling over and over through the stages" ?

Keep smiling all the time
Dhammarelax

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/4/14 10:45 PM as a reply to dhammarelax.
Hi dhammarelax,

The second time was after a severe bicycle accident in the hospital emergency room. I broke my right shoulder in two directions. When the doctor came in and began to examine me, I realized that if there was ever a time I needed to be mindful, it was just exactly then. I was lying on my back on the examining table watching my mind as the extreme pain in my shoulder gradually subsided from the morphine that the doctor had given me. I clearly perceived a little blip of self-pity arise as clinging, and, in the seeing, it vanished. If I had not seen it, it would have exploded into my mind and ruined my life. When I was younger, I had a real problem with self-pity. Since seeing self-pity vanish in the emergency room, I've not had a problem with it. As you can imagine, this enormously strengthened my confidence in the dhamma.

So my experience is that by applying strong mindfulness to the arising of the twelve links on a case by case basis, especially at the very beginnning of the sequence after contact, can liberate you from that particular case. Whether its possible to achieve a blanket liberation from them as you say isn't clear to me but I'm certainly hopeful.

                  

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/4/14 10:43 PM as a reply to J J.
Though I don't claim any of the paths, I'm wondering if the fruition experience (reality disappearing then reappearing after a time) might be a critical part of the mechanism of ending suffering. Daniel mentions in MCTB that fruition experiences tend to occur often after the paths, also in everyday life. He doesn't mention what if anything triggers the experience, but I'm wondering if the fruition experience doesn't arise in an ariya-puggala as a particular set of sensations or situations occur which, in a normal puggala, would cause suffering. Perhaps its just a minor amount of suffering, like becoming irritated with your boss or something like that. But if reality vanishes and you come out of it on the other side feeling equanimity, happiness, or some other positive emotion rather than irritated, then that to me that qualifies as a reduction in suffering and something to aim for.

Thoughts? Has anyone claiming one of the paths noticed in what kinds of situations/sensations a fruition experience tends to arise?

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/5/14 12:55 AM as a reply to svmonk.
Hello svmonk,

I have two speculative notions about fruition:

First of all as a backdrop, Mahasi Sayadaw denied that blackout fruitions were nibbana, he explicitly states that perception is present during the consciousness of nibbana. This is present in his two volume treatise on the path of insight. Various other books I've read (one about Mahamudra, the other being "Liberating Insight" by Frits Koster) state that blackout experiences are not necessarily Dharma.

Nevertheless none of that really matters, because changes in path are probably changes (permanent ones) in the mindstream of the practitioner and not transient experiences.

The two speculative notions:

1) B. Roberts holds that upon touching upon no-self experiences, the body initially experiences these as a lack of consciousness. She calls this phenomenon "ecstasy". As the contemplative moves closer to no-self, he or she experiences more and more pronounced periods of sinking out of consciousness. For B. Roberts the true no-self experience occurs when the practitioner functions with senses awake, but without consciousness. Which seems like a conundrum but that is her experience.

2) The other possibility is that fruition is the temporary cessation of samsaric experience, with a temporary stutter in momentum, the machine of rebirth breaks down because craving ceases for a moment. See the "Twelve Nidanas".

My own position is that fruition is a common experience to all practitioners, but if meditation, view and practice are not balanced, a distortion occurs where the experience is viewed/experienced as a blackout.

I have never blacked out, this is probably due to my familiarity with the doctrine of emptiness and no-self, because of this training I do not experience blackout fruitions. For someone who is not familiar with emptiness doctrines or Dharma in general, and comes upon the state of no-self, their body recognizes this experience as "consciousness or clinical death", leading it to be experienced as the absence of consciousness.

Whereas it's really just the cessation of perception and feeling. Within the suttas it's explicitly stated that the indriya of a person within cessation are active. Caveat, sanna-vedayita-nirodha in the Canon probably is the cessation of consciousness for a period of time however.

The actual experience of nibbana should be accompanied by awareness, alertness and mindfulness as well as the absence of suffering.

Executive summary: Fruitions, if experienced incorrectly are experienced as blackouts. Similarly the path of Dharma, if experienced incorrectly, is experienced as being composed of nyanas and so on and so forth. I've never been through a dark night, and I've never blacked out. This is entirely due to training in correct Dharma and view.

I call these phenomena: distortions of insight.

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/5/14 1:49 AM as a reply to svmonk.
svmonk:
Though I don't claim any of the paths, I'm wondering if the fruition experience (reality disappearing then reappearing after a time) might be a critical part of the mechanism of ending suffering. Daniel mentions in MCTB that fruition experiences tend to occur often after the paths, also in everyday life. He doesn't mention what if anything triggers the experience, but I'm wondering if the fruition experience doesn't arise in an ariya-puggala as a particular set of sensations or situations occur which, in a normal puggala, would cause suffering. Perhaps its just a minor amount of suffering, like becoming irritated with your boss or something like that. But if reality vanishes and you come out of it on the other side feeling equanimity, happiness, or some other positive emotion rather than irritated, then that to me that qualifies as a reduction in suffering and something to aim for.

Thoughts? Has anyone claiming one of the paths noticed in what kinds of situations/sensations a fruition experience tends to arise?

As I see it in my own experience: Fruition is the post-cessation experience. 'Black out'  isn't really an accurate term or wording to talk about the cessation of the senses as I experience it. A 'black out'  seems to have the connotation of an experience that may be remembered. It is so very brief for myself these days that 'black out' is not the right term for it.  As I see it, it is a quick shutting down of the nama/ruping of the field of exprience that gives rise  to the selfing process (Subject/object experience) no matter how gross refined and sublte it may be. Then experience comes back on line but it is rebooting and there is a period (moment/moments short or long) where the nama/rupa-ing of the field of experience has ceased but there is an awareness of it all.  It is a goldmine of insight that frees. And I can call them up at will simply by inclining the mind towards the 'gaps' in any experiences, inclining the mind towards the cessation of any experience, or all experience. If called up contonuously for prolonged periods can do some damage to that which sucks. I think Mahasi points to it in this quote:

It has already been stated that phalasamapatti (fruition attainment) first begins to occur when arising from nirodhasamapatti. This phalasamapatti being free from raga (passion), etc., it is also called suññata(the Void). As it is free of ræga-nimitta (one of the attributes of sentient existence), it is also known as animitta. Moreover, as it is free from passionate desire such as raga, etc., it is also called appanihita. As such, phassa which is also included in this samapatti is also known as suññata, animitta and appanihita. As phassa (contact) takes place by dwelling upon Nibbana, which is known as suññata (the Void), animitta (the Unconditioned), and appanithta (freedom from longing or desire), with attentive consciousness of mind, it is called suññata, etc. The answer, therefore, is that the three kinds of phassa, viz: suññataphassa, animittaphassa and appanihitaphassa first begin to take place. 

For better understanding, it may be stated that when arising from nirodhasamapatti,contact takes place with suññata-nibbana, a condition devoid of kilesa-sankhara to which the mind has been directed as its sense-object. Contact is also made with animitta-nibbana which is devoid of or free from any sign of nimitta. Then comes mere awareness of contact with appanihita-nibbana, a condition free from vehement desire, which is the sense object that has been contemplated.http://www.dhammaweb.net/mahasi/book/Mahasi_Sayadaw_Culavedalla_Sutta.pdf

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
12/6/14 2:54 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Hi Nicolai,
It is a goldmine of insight that frees. And I can call them up at will simply by inclining the mind towards the 'gaps' in any experiences, inclining the mind towards the cessation of any experience, or all experience.If called up contonuously for prolonged periods can do some damage to that which sucks.
I think you've answered my question. emoticon Shinzen Young talks about any "gone" experience being the gateway to emptiness.

Also, thanx for the link to the Yogi Toolbox post at the Hamilton Project. The notes from the Ayya Khema talk were great, need to check out the whole thing.

          jak

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