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10 fetters
Answer
12/16/14 10:39 AM
i was looking at the ten fetters and noticing that with the stream winner arahant fruition conciet goes away does that mean that almost everyone in the world is conceited in some way?

Ive been noticing that Ive been having alot of problmes with the last 5 fetters even to the point of sometimes wanting to kill myself to try and become enlightened in the sfter life so i can go to a pure abode... not good I know

right now Im working on working through the 5 hinderances and the worldly concerns which is where my anxiety comes from usually restlessness leads to worry and worry to gain and loss  any sources on the net for working with these things that are good?

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/16/14 1:24 PM as a reply to grant.
grant:
i was looking at the ten fetters and noticing that with the stream winner arahant fruition conciet goes away does that mean that almost everyone in the world is conceited in some way?

Conceited in the sense that we compare ourselves with others, thinking "I am greater than" or "I am less than" or "I am the same as." See how this happens, keeping you tumbling from the last moment to the next.

grant:
Ive been noticing that Ive been having alot of problmes with the last 5 fetters even to the point of sometimes wanting to kill myself to try and become enlightened in the sfter life so i can go to a pure abode... not good I know

Does this mean you've dropped the first five fetters? How sure are you of this? Did you get your anagami attainment badge from an Internet message board, e.g.(?!?) Look, maybe you're going to get reborn in a pure abode, or maybe you're not. Why gamble on this? Life's here now. Grab it and make the most of it. Keep walking the path.

Further, If you're thinking of destructive acts like this, even for some kind of tangentially noble reason... please take some time to speak with a trusted friend, family member, loved one, mental health professional.

grant:
right now Im working on working through the 5 hinderances and the worldly concerns which is where my anxiety comes from usually restlessness leads to worry and worry to gain and loss  any sources on the net for working with these things that are good?


Here's about 70 or 80 talks on the five hindrances. I'm certain there'll be one here that will resonate with you.

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/16/14 3:30 PM as a reply to grant.
Here is one of the most ancient documents on what the Buddha said about working through the five hindrances and developing the factors of awakening:


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn46/sn46.051.than.html

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/17/14 10:07 AM as a reply to grant.
Lust for material existence and immaterial existence are odd ones really. One should neither want to live or die. But if one is very ill should one not try to get better then? Because if one does not one dies but if one does get treatment one is clinging to material existance if one does not one is lusting for immaterial existence. Its also funny that lust for existence is lower ranked than conceit, restlessness and ignorance when the fetters are listed. One would think that attachment to existence is a biggy to overcome. Personally I harbor no ill will never had. Conceited there is a little sometimes though I cant remember. Never thought I was better or worse than anyone else except in skills. But one is always better or worse than someone else in skills (language, running, cooking food, painting). I havent entered any streams.

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/17/14 11:33 AM as a reply to grant.
I have never known anyone without some conceit of some kind, mostly many kinds.  People are sometimes even conceited about their supposed lack of conceit!  ;-P  Can't say it's not possible to not have it, just have never met anyone personally that I can think of that had absolutely none so to me it seems like it's part of the usual human condition for the vast majority, so common that IMO it tends to go unnoticed unless it's particularly intense and in your face and said out loud more.  IMO, everyone I know has some things they think about themselves or want to think about themselves that they feel make them better and special compared to others, superior cooking skills, negotiating skills, sports skills, looks, style, opinions, intelligence, kindness, sacrifice, suffering, work ethic, accomplishments, memorabilia collection, etc.  Personally, I have a lot less conceit now than I used to but I still see it flair up quite often on a daily basis. 
-Eva 

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/18/14 11:49 AM as a reply to Pål.
Pål:
Here is one of the most ancient documents on what the Buddha said about working through the five hindrances and developing the factors of awakening:


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn46/sn46.051.than.html


This is great! I'd never read that one before, and I've actually searched quite a lot for some techniques that directly relate to the hinderances.

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/18/14 8:47 PM as a reply to grant.

Not the case! In actuality the path is the same way all the people on here describe it.

You still enjoy things after anagamihood and arahanthood.  

I haven't talked about it much but the fetter model is correct as is the “fourth path' model  people here have experienced.

For certain things, especially in meditation, I get very vague, geometriccally shaped pictures with a black background.

When becoming a Sakagami I saw a picture which literally represented attenuated sense pleasures. I did not know what it was at first.

On top of that, during progress on 2nd and 3rd path I got a very specific shape which I later figured to litterally represent  “sense pleasure”.   Throughout my travel on the path I would notice my mind dissecting, calculating, analyzing this shape and others.  You do not need to be aware of any of it, the meditation does it all for you.

I've talked enough but I willl gofurther and say that later I found images that literally represented dependant origin.  I saw and felt my mind study it ad nauseum.  

So go enjoy life! Meditate and enjoy life.  Becoming too ascetic is also actually an impurity.  Sometimes it stems from wanting enlightenment, sometimes maybe it stems from wanting be a certain spirtiual idea, maybe it is another thing. Either way tere can be drastic consequences to trying to be too pure.  You can see examples of these consequences in the Catholic church.  It also happened to me, I tried too hard and tried to be too pure.  I got very hurt and I am still a little burned out from it.  When you swing too far on one direction you create, like in physics, repressed potential energy.  Just like how people can gorge when they finally give into a diet.

Anyway, word hard! Have fun!

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/19/14 3:30 PM as a reply to Bailey ..
thnks for your imput

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/19/14 6:19 PM as a reply to Not Tao.
Not Tao:
Pål:
Here is one of the most ancient documents on what the Buddha said about working through the five hindrances and developing the factors of awakening:


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn46/sn46.051.than.html


This is great! I'd never read that one before, and I've actually searched quite a lot for some techniques that directly relate to the hinderances.


I thought you turned actualist? That sutta isnt very actualist, is it?

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/19/14 7:26 PM as a reply to Pål.
Pål:
I thought you turned actualist? That sutta isnt very actualist, is it?


I've never turned anything from anything else. I've always been a Not Taoist. emoticon

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/19/14 8:24 PM as a reply to grant.
"Conceit" is a problematic way to think about the Pali word Mana (first a is long a, but I can't figure out how to do that right now).

It is usually translated in emotional terms, that being something like arrogance or pride or unskillful comparison, but consider that something closer would be something in the sense of "I am", as if that truly were true, which it isn't.

The Buddha himself apparently thought quite well of himself, constantly praising his attainments, saying he was better than basically everyone else, including gods and the like, as well as beyond all other arahats and teachers, and yet he also claimed to be free of this.

Contradiction? Is he using the word in a different way from the way it is commonly translated? I vote for the latter.

I think of it as finally untangling the knot of perception that creates the sense of a permanent, continuous, separate part of this reality that is actually an "us". Other translations run into numerous complex problems, the one related to the Buddha being only one of them.

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/19/14 8:28 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
"Conceit" is a problematic way to think about the Pali word Mana (first a is long a, but I can't figure out how to do that right now).

It is usually translated in emotional terms, that being something like arrogance or pride or unskillful comparison, but consider that something closer would be something in the sense of "I am", as if that truly were true, which it isn't.

The Buddha himself apparently thought quite well of himself, constantly praising his attainments, saying he was better than basically everyone else, including gods and the like, as well as beyond all other arahats and teachers, and yet he also claimed to be free of this.

Contradiction? Is he using the word in a different way from the way it is commonly translated? I vote for the latter.

I think of it as finally untangling the knot of perception that creates the sense of a permanent, continuous, separate part of this reality that is actually an "us". Other translations run into numerous complex problems, the one related to the Buddha being only one of them.

Maybe it should be translated as "free will" or "the illusion of control."

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/20/14 10:02 AM as a reply to Not Tao.
Not Tao:
Pål:
Here is one of the most ancient documents on what the Buddha said about working through the five hindrances and developing the factors of awakening:


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn46/sn46.051.than.html


This is great! I'd never read that one before, and I've actually searched quite a lot for some techniques that directly relate to the hinderances.
Reminds me of that new age saying, "You get what you pay attention to."
-Eva

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/20/14 10:33 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
"Conceit" is a problematic way to think about the Pali word Mana (first a is long a, but I can't figure out how to do that right now).

It is usually translated in emotional terms, that being something like arrogance or pride or unskillful comparison, but consider that something closer would be something in the sense of "I am", as if that truly were true, which it isn't.

The Buddha himself apparently thought quite well of himself, constantly praising his attainments, saying he was better than basically everyone else, including gods and the like, as well as beyond all other arahats and teachers, and yet he also claimed to be free of this.

Contradiction? Is he using the word in a different way from the way it is commonly translated? I vote for the latter.

I think of it as finally untangling the knot of perception that creates the sense of a permanent, continuous, separate part of this reality that is actually an "us". Other translations run into numerous complex problems, the one related to the Buddha being only one of them.
I wonder if it has do with the difference between seeing something and the emotions that the observation brings.  Like sometimes I observe that I am very good at some specific little thing, perhaps better than anyone I have ever met.  Suppose the observation is truthful, I really am that good at that thing, so to deny it or belittle it would not be truthful or honest.  Therefore IMO I should recognize it as truth.  Conversely, I may also notice truthfully that there are some specific things that I am terrible at, perhaps even worse than anyone I have ever known.  But then what emotions do these observations bring?  I could feel/think that everyone has certain strengths and certain weaknesses and that is natural and normal and not a big deal, take the cards I have and do my best, etc and not make a big deal out of it and be practical about it.  Kind of a thing of looking at the bigger picture of the balance and flux between various components of reality.  Or I could make the observations and then think I AM better than you or others, because I can do something you all can't, or conversely I could think I am some kind of inferior person because I am bad at something that everyone else can do.  I could compare myself to others and make value judgements about myself as a whole person, or instead I could make observations from a more practical logical perspective and not assign value judgements to them.  IMO, if you avoid assigning value judgements, the observations become more accurate.

IMO, conceit is not the observation you make but what you then may feel that observation implies emotionally about your own value compared to others around you. Like if you are better at something than others, do you then think/feel that the whole you as a whole person is also better than those other people even for a second?  IMO, a truthful observation is not conceit but feeling you are better than the other person, even for a second, is conceit.  Or if you find yourself to be bad at something compared to others, do you then tend to extrapolate that YOU are inferior in general even for a second?     
-Eva

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/20/14 10:54 AM as a reply to Bailey ..
I suspect sometimes what  happens is an instability if there is a too wide gulf between desires and actions.   For instance, someone may give up TV (or sex or whatever) because that person feels or is told tv is wrong, a waste of time, immoral or whatever.  But even if that person gives up TV, if he/she then spends a lot of time thinking about tv, feeling self rightious sacrifice for giving up tv, finger wagging at everyone else who still watches tv, etc, did that giving up of the tv help that person?  On the surface of it, that person who does not watch tv may appear more moral than another person that occasionally watches tv in moderation, but underneath, the story may not be so simple and the occasional tv watcher may in actuality have less unresolved issues to deal with.   Pushing faster than you are ready can create a host of new and less easy to understand problems.  We see that a lot in politics where there is a strong pressure to look like perfect humans even though inside they are not any such thing.  
-Eva
Bailey .:

It also happened to me, I tried too hard and tried to be too pure.  I got very hurt and I am still a little burned out from it.  When you swing too far on one direction you create, like in physics, repressed potential energy.  Just like how people can gorge when they finally give into a diet.

Anyway, word hard! Have fun!

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/20/14 11:20 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva M Nie:
Daniel M. Ingram:
"Conceit" is a problematic way to think about the Pali word Mana (first a is long a, but I can't figure out how to do that right now).

It is usually translated in emotional terms, that being something like arrogance or pride or unskillful comparison, but consider that something closer would be something in the sense of "I am", as if that truly were true, which it isn't.

The Buddha himself apparently thought quite well of himself, constantly praising his attainments, saying he was better than basically everyone else, including gods and the like, as well as beyond all other arahats and teachers, and yet he also claimed to be free of this.

Contradiction? Is he using the word in a different way from the way it is commonly translated? I vote for the latter.

I think of it as finally untangling the knot of perception that creates the sense of a permanent, continuous, separate part of this reality that is actually an "us". Other translations run into numerous complex problems, the one related to the Buddha being only one of them.
I wonder if it has do with the difference between seeing something and the emotions that the observation brings.  Like sometimes I observe that I am very good at some specific little thing, perhaps better than anyone I have ever met.  Suppose the observation is truthful, I really am that good at that thing, so to deny it or belittle it would not be truthful or honest.  Therefore IMO I should recognize it as truth.  Conversely, I may also notice truthfully that there are some specific things that I am terrible at, perhaps even worse than anyone I have ever known.  But then what emotions do these observations bring?  I could feel/think that everyone has certain strengths and certain weaknesses and that is natural and normal and not a big deal, take the cards I have and do my best, etc and not make a big deal out of it and be practical about it.  Kind of a thing of looking at the bigger picture of the balance and flux between various components of reality.  Or I could make the observations and then think I AM better than you or others, because I can do something you all can't, or conversely I could think I am some kind of inferior person because I am bad at something that everyone else can do.  I could compare myself to others and make value judgements about myself as a whole person, or instead I could make observations from a more practical logical perspective and not assign value judgements to them.  IMO, if you avoid assigning value judgements, the observations become more accurate.

IMO, conceit is not the observation you make but what you then may feel that observation implies emotionally about your own value compared to others around you. Like if you are better at something than others, do you then think/feel that the whole you as a whole person is also better than those other people even for a second?  IMO, a truthful observation is not conceit but feeling you are better than the other person, even for a second, is conceit.  Or if you find yourself to be bad at something compared to others, do you then tend to extrapolate that YOU are inferior in general even for a second?     
-Eva

Hey Eva, 

I agree with what you are saying, so I am really just paraphrasing.  Yeah, Equanimity towards all formations, humans are formations.

First View:  So, one may say he runs fast, she is pretty, he is in shape, he is fat, she is smart, etc...  This would be , pehaps, stating a fact, if viewed from a balanced viewpoint, i.e. where one is not judging or criticizing.

Second View: So, one may say he runs fast and then be jealous and crave to also be able to run fast, one may say she is pretty and crave pretty also or be jealous, or one may say he is in shape and then think but not as in shape as I am, etc. etc.


So one view states the facts, and the next view adds a layer of conceit.

Third View:  So, one may see a human, one may see another human, one may see another human

In this view even more conceit is abandoned

Fourth View, So, one may see a formation, one may see a formation

In this view even more conceit is abandoned

In the fourth view presented here, one would use wisdom to understand everything is made of the same packets of energy, interchanges within and without the other packets of energy, nothing stays the same, and nothing is really anymore important than anything else, why would it be?  Unless one starts adding in layers of conceit...

But, then again, I may just be Psilosophising.....ooohh conceit....yucky!  haha

Psi

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/21/14 8:57 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
RE: 10 fetters
re: Daniel M. Ingram (12/19/14 8:24 PM as a reply to grant. )
"Conceit" is a problematic way to think about the Pali word Mana (first a is long a, but I can't figure out how to do that right now).

There's a system of transliteration I found Bhikkhu Bodhi using in some paper: representing 'long' vowels by doubling them (e.g. maana), and various other adaptations of the diacriticals, like putting '.' before a letter when it's on top of the Pali letter, putting the dot after when it's under the Pali letter -- e.g. 'satipat.t.haana.' A bit clumsy, but one can then represent the full diacritical set. Such a system could probably also work also for Sanskrit.

Not really significant in a non-scholarly context, unless one happens to be dealing at that same time with, say, 'mana' (~mind…) and 'maana' (~measure, pride…).

"It is usually translated in emotional terms, that being something like arrogance or pride or unskillful comparison, but consider that something closer would be something in the sense of "I am", as if that truly were true, which it isn't."

I suspect the manna issue may relate to the "Tathagata says…" figure of speech used at times in the Sutta-s. A human individual is speaking, but not from an identify-bound viewpoint.

(btw: Does anyone here know if any scholars have investigated if that figure of speech associates with 'earlier' or 'later' sutta-s? I haven't come across any mention, yet.)

"The Buddha himself apparently thought quite well of himself, constantly praising his attainments, saying he was better than basically everyone else, including gods and the like, as well as beyond all other arahats and teachers, and yet he also claimed to be free of this."

Having plowed through (it can be tedious) a lot of Analayo's and Sujato's (and Alexander Wynne's s/w distinct approach) analyses as to historically 'stratifying' (the 'earlier/later' issues) sutta texts, there are indications that the Buddha-exhaltion bits (in GB's words or others) were added at later stages as Buddha's personage took on aspects of religious deification.

"I think of it as finally untangling the knot of perception that creates the sense of a permanent, continuous, separate part of this reality that is actually an "us". Other translations run into numerous complex problems, the one related to the Buddha being only one of them."

It (maana) is curious among the last 3 'fetters'. 'Ignorance' (avijjaa) is fairly clear as the last thread, so to speak; and 'restlessness' (uddhacca) also as there's still something undone. Being myself (currently) s/w of a fetter-follower, the maana issue occasionaly gives rise to skepticism as to some (not all) modern claims of arahat-ship. I suspect there's as special challenge for the Western-conditoned mind here, though I can't quite put my finger on it yet. It reminds me of a saying Stephen Levine used: "The ego wants to be present at it's own funeral."

Practically speaking (viz-a-vis this forum), I would hypothesize that the attitude "so-and-so is wrong (but I'm right)" showcases maana. Pragmatism can be highly individualistic; emphasis on the individual can be isolating, and spawn defense / offence attitudes. Realizing (i.e. some degree of awakening) that all views are relative to a particular perspective (the point of view it centers on, sees from), an 'a-perspective' attitude becomes possible, which in fact is also often evident in this forum, and helps defuse the horn-locking situations that s/t arise.

P.S. -- some philological data on maana:

1) Nyanatiloka's dictionary has:
"maana
-- nt. measure; measurement. (m.) pride; conceit."

2) PTS dictionary (Rhys Davids andStede) has:
"maana1
[late Vedic & Epic Sk. … meaning perhaps "high opinions" (i.e. No.2); hence "pride"…] 1. pride, conceit, arrogance… A detailed analysis of maana in tenfold aspect is given at Nd1 80 = Nd2 505… 2. honour, respect…"
"maana2
[… Vedic maana has 2 meanings, viz. "measure," and "building"…] 1. measure… 2. a certain measure…"
(Nd1 = Mahaaniddesa; Nd2 = Culaniddesa)

3) Nanamoli (in his translation of the Visudhumagga, footnote 18 to III.78) writes:
"Maana, usually rendered by 'pride', is rendered here both by 'pride' and 'conceit'. Etymologically derived perhaps from maaneti (to honour) or minaati (to measure). In sense, however, it tends to become associated with ma~n~nati to conceive (false notions, see M.i, I), to imagine, to think (as e.g. at Ndr.80 [same ref as in PTS?], Vbh. 390 and comy.). As one of the 'defilements' (see M.i, 36) it is probably best rendered by 'pride'. In the expression asmi-maana (often rendered by 'the pride that says "I am" ') it more nearly approaches ma~n~nanaa (false imagining, misconception, see M.iii, 246) and is better rendered by 'the conceit "I am"', since the word 'conceit' straddles both the meanings of 'pride (haughtiness)' and 'conception'."

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/24/14 9:41 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Theravada and Mahayana both are for drying out sensual desire. And 100% of it.
Requierments for streamentry are very high, that it requiers a lot of intelligence to even grasp what ''Identity view'' is or "doubt"

Intelligence not high enough satisfies with low results what are by far from achieveing minimal signs of attainment of streamentrant.

RE: 10 fetters
Answer
12/30/14 3:25 PM as a reply to CJMacie.
(btw: Does anyone here know if any scholars have investigated if that figure of speech associates with 'earlier' or 'later' sutta-s? I haven't come across any mention, yet.)

I haven’t seen any mention of it either.

 ...there are indications that the Buddha-exhaltion bits (in GB's words or others) were added at later stages as Buddha's personage took on aspects of religious deification.

Ajahn Brahmali, in his workshop on text analysis says he feels the flowery over-the-top stuff is from a later period (he points to the ‘Sariputta is totally awesome’ kind of language found in MN 111 as an example of this).

Recently I found Buddha addressed as the harmless one - and I think elsewhere he is addressed as the happy one. I think these are probably earlier as once he starts getting deified can’t see that terms like that would get added in.

Practically speaking (viz-a-vis this forum), I would hypothesize that the attitude "so-and-so is wrong (but I'm right)" showcases manna.

I think this is a good example. I am a fan of the fetter model and examples like this are useful in describing them in an experiential way.

Michael Olds (BuddhaDust) defines manna as: pride/gone mental