A man without desire - Discussion
A man without desire
Dave sdfsdf, modified 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 1:46 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 1:46 PM
A man without desire
Posts: 216 Join Date: 11/4/14 Recent Posts
There is a lot of talk about desire, how its evil etc. What happens when you remove desire, drive and what not?
Well nothing really, you just sit and it wonderbread with mayonaise.
See act 1 of this interview with a man who lost his testosterone and think if desirelessness is really a good term for what Buddhism prescribes etc.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/transcript
Well nothing really, you just sit and it wonderbread with mayonaise.
See act 1 of this interview with a man who lost his testosterone and think if desirelessness is really a good term for what Buddhism prescribes etc.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/transcript
katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 2:15 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 2:15 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Andreas,
This is a fantastic article. Thank you. (NPR has a new show "Invisibilia" about the mind, in case you haven't heard it).
Here is an (huge) excerpt from the transcript you linked on this person without desire due to no testosterone. For people shopping for a practice I think this below is a useful perspective when considering outcomes of non-clinging and undermined desire.
Alex Blumberg
Describe your thoughts on your morning walk in this state.
Man
It's very quiet at 5:30, 6:00, 6:30 in the morning. And yeah, and I would see a brick in a wall, and I would think, a brick in a wall. I would see a pigeon and think, pigeon. It's the most literal possible understanding of the world.
Alex Blumberg
So in this time, when you're without testosterone, you're walking down the street. You're just ticking things off, just making these very simple observations.
Man
Like a grocery list.
Alex Blumberg
Yeah, like a grocery list exactly. You also have a thought that comes to you all the time, right?
Man
Yes.
Alex Blumberg
Talk about that.
Man
Which is a very strange-sounding thing, which is, "That is beautiful." Everything I saw, I thought, "That is beautiful," which is odd-sounding, I know, because that sounds like the judgment of a person with passion. But it was the exact opposite. It was thought, and sometimes even said, with complete dispassion, with objectivity.
And you see, I was looking at absolutely everything, the most mundane sight in the world, a weed in the sidewalk, and thinking, "Oh, that's beautiful." The surgery scars on people's knees, the bolts in the hubcaps of cars, all of it, it just seemed to have purpose. And it was like, "Oh, that's beautiful."
Alex Blumberg
It's so staggering that that is the core thought that you were left with. If you see things factually, you could have just as easily settled on monstrous or disgusting. And so it's just interesting to me that the adjective your brain, and what was left of your personality, chose to ascribe to everything is "beautiful." Why do you think that is?
Man
When I think about that question, the issue of God comes into the equation for me. In a way, being without testosterone brought me closer to God, but not in the afternoon talk show sense of being, I don't know, more humane, but actually thinking like God. And of course, I don't mean thinking as God, but I meant thinking like God in an aping, superficial kind of way. He sees things as they really are. He sees you as you really are.
And I had this omniscient sense when I was without testosterone that I was seeing through the skin of things, that I was seeing things as they really were, and that the objective conclusion, not the judgmental one, but the objective conclusion was, they are beautiful. Everything is beautiful, from the bugs to the cracks in the sidewalk to the faces of other people. And it was automatic. Perhaps to see things objectively is to see them, all of them, as beautiful.
But you have to understand that the thought was expressed in the most flat-line, boring way possible. "Oh yeah, that's beautiful. It's beautiful."
You would think that this would be a terrible thing, a terrible state to be in, and for most people, it is. But it was weirdly pleasant. And there is a certain appeal, an impossible appeal, to that Rip van Winkle existence of being without testosterone.
You just have to remember that it doesn't matter if you have nothing, if you want nothing. Very tricky to get inside that mindset. In some ways, it's difficult for me to even remember it now. But it had its allure.
Alex Blumberg
Well, I can understand that. Because desire often feels like a burden. It often feels like if I just didn't want that thing, not having it wouldn't be so painful.
Man
There you go. All that wanting.
This is a fantastic article. Thank you. (NPR has a new show "Invisibilia" about the mind, in case you haven't heard it).
Here is an (huge) excerpt from the transcript you linked on this person without desire due to no testosterone. For people shopping for a practice I think this below is a useful perspective when considering outcomes of non-clinging and undermined desire.
Alex Blumberg
Describe your thoughts on your morning walk in this state.
Man
It's very quiet at 5:30, 6:00, 6:30 in the morning. And yeah, and I would see a brick in a wall, and I would think, a brick in a wall. I would see a pigeon and think, pigeon. It's the most literal possible understanding of the world.
Alex Blumberg
So in this time, when you're without testosterone, you're walking down the street. You're just ticking things off, just making these very simple observations.
Man
Like a grocery list.
Alex Blumberg
Yeah, like a grocery list exactly. You also have a thought that comes to you all the time, right?
Man
Yes.
Alex Blumberg
Talk about that.
Man
Which is a very strange-sounding thing, which is, "That is beautiful." Everything I saw, I thought, "That is beautiful," which is odd-sounding, I know, because that sounds like the judgment of a person with passion. But it was the exact opposite. It was thought, and sometimes even said, with complete dispassion, with objectivity.
And you see, I was looking at absolutely everything, the most mundane sight in the world, a weed in the sidewalk, and thinking, "Oh, that's beautiful." The surgery scars on people's knees, the bolts in the hubcaps of cars, all of it, it just seemed to have purpose. And it was like, "Oh, that's beautiful."
Alex Blumberg
It's so staggering that that is the core thought that you were left with. If you see things factually, you could have just as easily settled on monstrous or disgusting. And so it's just interesting to me that the adjective your brain, and what was left of your personality, chose to ascribe to everything is "beautiful." Why do you think that is?
Man
When I think about that question, the issue of God comes into the equation for me. In a way, being without testosterone brought me closer to God, but not in the afternoon talk show sense of being, I don't know, more humane, but actually thinking like God. And of course, I don't mean thinking as God, but I meant thinking like God in an aping, superficial kind of way. He sees things as they really are. He sees you as you really are.
And I had this omniscient sense when I was without testosterone that I was seeing through the skin of things, that I was seeing things as they really were, and that the objective conclusion, not the judgmental one, but the objective conclusion was, they are beautiful. Everything is beautiful, from the bugs to the cracks in the sidewalk to the faces of other people. And it was automatic. Perhaps to see things objectively is to see them, all of them, as beautiful.
But you have to understand that the thought was expressed in the most flat-line, boring way possible. "Oh yeah, that's beautiful. It's beautiful."
You would think that this would be a terrible thing, a terrible state to be in, and for most people, it is. But it was weirdly pleasant. And there is a certain appeal, an impossible appeal, to that Rip van Winkle existence of being without testosterone.
You just have to remember that it doesn't matter if you have nothing, if you want nothing. Very tricky to get inside that mindset. In some ways, it's difficult for me to even remember it now. But it had its allure.
Alex Blumberg
Well, I can understand that. Because desire often feels like a burden. It often feels like if I just didn't want that thing, not having it wouldn't be so painful.
Man
There you go. All that wanting.
Dave sdfsdf, modified 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 2:31 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 2:31 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 216 Join Date: 11/4/14 Recent Posts
Its an interesting read yes. On one hand everything is beautiful, on the other hand, you just eat wonderbread and mayonaise =), dont have sex and basically become a zombie of sorts. When one reads Act 2 about the woman who changed gender with hormone injections of testosterone one can clearly see why men seem to be more hardcore practioneers of the "way".
Its fascinating, but I hope castration is not really what the Buddha prescribed, if it is then why meditated etc, snip snip and you are englightened hehe.
Its fascinating, but I hope castration is not really what the Buddha prescribed, if it is then why meditated etc, snip snip and you are englightened hehe.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 3:41 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 3:41 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
I've been worrying a little about that. I mean look at Ramana Maharshi. He couldn't have had lots of testo. Does meditation affect ones hormones?
Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 4:34 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 4:34 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent PostsPål:
I've been worrying a little about that. I mean look at Ramana Maharshi. He couldn't have had lots of testo. Does meditation affect ones hormones?
Meditate for Mental
Excercise for Physical,
if possible.
Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 4:35 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 4:35 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent PostsPsi:
Pål:
I've been worrying a little about that. I mean look at Ramana Maharshi. He couldn't have had lots of testo. Does meditation affect ones hormones?
Meditate for Mental
Excercise for Physical,
if possible.
P.S. Frank Zane meditated....
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 5:07 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 5:06 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent PostsPsi:
Psi:
Pål:
I've been worrying a little about that. I mean look at Ramana Maharshi. He couldn't have had lots of testo. Does meditation affect ones hormones?
Meditate for Mental
Excercise for Physical,
if possible.
P.S. Frank Zane meditated....
But they took steroids so their hormone levels were abnormal anyway. Or at least Arnold did, I'm not sure about Frank Zane.
katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 5:12 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/13/15 5:12 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Andreas: "When one reads Act 2 about the woman who changed gender with hormone injections of testosterone one can clearly see why men seem to be more hardcore practioneers of the 'way'."
I don't know (being female) but these excepts were interesting to me. I can sort of remotely see why a guy would be threatened a the loss of sex drive when I read this. But otherwise I just sort of rationalize it: "Well, males have erections since womb-times, so it's part of what/who they are..."
Andreas: "Its fascinating, but I hope castration is not really what the Buddha prescribed, if it is then why meditated etc, snip snip and you are englightened hehe"
Well, if the Pali canon and its Chinese Agamas/Tibetan peer texts represent any of actuality from back in the day, the buddha seemed to speak pretty well like what we'd call a trial lawyer today and he stayed "onstage" as a visible, deliberate teacher and, furthermore, someone took the time to preserve a love-making with his bride wherein Siddhartha and Yasodhara rolled off a roof 'congressionally'. So if I had to speculate then, I speculate high T.
Maybe related to the buddha, intermittent fasting seems to increase testosterone but prolonged fasting seems to lower it. (This must have been discussed before somewhere...)
I don't know (being female) but these excepts were interesting to me. I can sort of remotely see why a guy would be threatened a the loss of sex drive when I read this. But otherwise I just sort of rationalize it: "Well, males have erections since womb-times, so it's part of what/who they are..."
Griffin Hansbury: (...) so that I have the testosterone of two high-testosterone men in my body at once.
(...)
The most overwhelming feeling is the incredible increase in libido and change in the way that I perceived women and the way I thought about sex.
(...)
Well, I felt like a monster a lot of the time. And it made me understand men. It made me understand adolescent boys a lot. Suddenly, hair is sprouting, and I'm turning into this beast. And I would really berate myself for it.
(...)
And before, it was cool. When I would do a poetry reading, I would get up, and I would read these poems about women on the street. And I was a butch dyke, and that was very cutting-edge, and that was very sexy and raw. And now I'm just a jerk.
(...)
I began to notice, once I started to pass as a man, that single men, walking alone down the street, will veer away from their path to walk towards me, get in my space, and then veer back. And it's very much like a little aggressive move. I've had men, just angry guys walking down the street, just body check me. So I really feel like I have to sort of puff myself up, so that people will keep their distance a little bit. But if I'm off guard, and I'm walking around, and I'm enjoying the scenery, it's pretty much guaranteed that somebody will shove me.
(...)
The most overwhelming feeling is the incredible increase in libido and change in the way that I perceived women and the way I thought about sex.
(...)
Well, I felt like a monster a lot of the time. And it made me understand men. It made me understand adolescent boys a lot. Suddenly, hair is sprouting, and I'm turning into this beast. And I would really berate myself for it.
(...)
And before, it was cool. When I would do a poetry reading, I would get up, and I would read these poems about women on the street. And I was a butch dyke, and that was very cutting-edge, and that was very sexy and raw. And now I'm just a jerk.
(...)
I began to notice, once I started to pass as a man, that single men, walking alone down the street, will veer away from their path to walk towards me, get in my space, and then veer back. And it's very much like a little aggressive move. I've had men, just angry guys walking down the street, just body check me. So I really feel like I have to sort of puff myself up, so that people will keep their distance a little bit. But if I'm off guard, and I'm walking around, and I'm enjoying the scenery, it's pretty much guaranteed that somebody will shove me.
Ira Glass: What scientific studies can tell us is that in general, more testosterone does not mean you're a more successful person. In fact, blue-collar workers tend to have more testosterone than white collar workers, and unemployed men have more than either group. Actors and trial lawyers, people who basically go onstage in one way or another, tend to have very high testosterone levels.
Maybe related to the buddha, intermittent fasting seems to increase testosterone but prolonged fasting seems to lower it. (This must have been discussed before somewhere...)
C P M, modified 9 Years ago at 2/14/15 2:56 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/14/15 2:55 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 218 Join Date: 5/23/13 Recent PostsCJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 2/14/15 10:20 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/14/15 10:20 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Pål (2/13/15 3:41 PM as a reply to Andreas.)
"Does meditation affect ones hormones?"
Depending on the type of meditation:
The piti (rapture) and possibly sukha (bliss/contentment) as 'jhanic factors' might qualify.
Kundalini very likely.
The seven chakras in the body are associated with the seven major glandular (hormonal) organs in some traditional asian medical systems. (Some systems, e.g. Theosophy, postulate additional chakras extending both upwards and downwards outside the physical organism.)
"Does meditation affect ones hormones?"
Depending on the type of meditation:
The piti (rapture) and possibly sukha (bliss/contentment) as 'jhanic factors' might qualify.
Kundalini very likely.
The seven chakras in the body are associated with the seven major glandular (hormonal) organs in some traditional asian medical systems. (Some systems, e.g. Theosophy, postulate additional chakras extending both upwards and downwards outside the physical organism.)
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 2/14/15 10:31 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/14/15 10:25 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
A couple of overall curious, tangential data points:
1) Testosterone, as we all know, is naturally found not only in male physiology. In fact, testosterone is a precursor (necessary ingredient) to estrogen, progesterone, etc. And, males also have estrogen, etc. (Even plants have 'phyto-estrogens'.) It's all a matter of proportion.
(And, oddly enough, precursor to testosterone and all the rest is cholesterol. Cholesterol ('-stero-' denoting lipid, i.e. 'fat') is foundational to the hormonal system – as in 'ster-oid'. Supposedly that's why anorexic female fashion models s/t have fertility problems, and ancient archeological fertility symbols tend to be rather rotund. Not to mention the plumpness of artist models used in (Western) traditional, in some sense sexy, nude paintings, e.g. Rubens.
2) Apropos a former topic in DhO about ratios of gender participation:
For anyone interested in actually compiling statistics, here's a clue.
DhO threads can be downloaded, 'saved-as', which creates a subdirectory named "<threadname>_files", and a file named "<threadname>.html". The subdirectory contains a group of files with names like:
user_female_portrait.jpg
user_female_portrait.png
user_male_portrait.jpg
user_male_portrait.png
user_male_portrait_002.jpg
user_male_portrait_003.jpg…
Apparently one (or a pair?) for each poster in the thread. I think this tracks posters, but not posts, per se; a single poster posting multiple posts will be represented by a single portrait file. And this no doubt keys-off what a person selects (M/F) in his/her DhO 'profile'.
Some kind of program or script to scan such subdirectories and count these files would provide the statistical raw data. Twenty years ago or so, I could have, in an hour or so, rapid-prototyped a Smalltalk program to do this. Let some younger geek go at it now, if motivated.
3) btw: happy Valentine's Day to all!
1) Testosterone, as we all know, is naturally found not only in male physiology. In fact, testosterone is a precursor (necessary ingredient) to estrogen, progesterone, etc. And, males also have estrogen, etc. (Even plants have 'phyto-estrogens'.) It's all a matter of proportion.
(And, oddly enough, precursor to testosterone and all the rest is cholesterol. Cholesterol ('-stero-' denoting lipid, i.e. 'fat') is foundational to the hormonal system – as in 'ster-oid'. Supposedly that's why anorexic female fashion models s/t have fertility problems, and ancient archeological fertility symbols tend to be rather rotund. Not to mention the plumpness of artist models used in (Western) traditional, in some sense sexy, nude paintings, e.g. Rubens.
2) Apropos a former topic in DhO about ratios of gender participation:
For anyone interested in actually compiling statistics, here's a clue.
DhO threads can be downloaded, 'saved-as', which creates a subdirectory named "<threadname>_files", and a file named "<threadname>.html". The subdirectory contains a group of files with names like:
user_female_portrait.jpg
user_female_portrait.png
user_male_portrait.jpg
user_male_portrait.png
user_male_portrait_002.jpg
user_male_portrait_003.jpg…
Apparently one (or a pair?) for each poster in the thread. I think this tracks posters, but not posts, per se; a single poster posting multiple posts will be represented by a single portrait file. And this no doubt keys-off what a person selects (M/F) in his/her DhO 'profile'.
Some kind of program or script to scan such subdirectories and count these files would provide the statistical raw data. Twenty years ago or so, I could have, in an hour or so, rapid-prototyped a Smalltalk program to do this. Let some younger geek go at it now, if motivated.
3) btw: happy Valentine's Day to all!
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 2/15/15 1:08 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/15/15 1:08 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent PostsChris J Macie:
re: Pål (2/13/15 3:41 PM as a reply to Andreas.)
"Does meditation affect ones hormones?"
Depending on the type of meditation:
The piti (rapture) and possibly sukha (bliss/contentment) as 'jhanic factors' might qualify.
Kundalini very likely.
The seven chakras in the body are associated with the seven major glandular (hormonal) organs in some traditional asian medical systems. (Some systems, e.g. Theosophy, postulate additional chakras extending both upwards and downwards outside the physical organism.)
"Does meditation affect ones hormones?"
Depending on the type of meditation:
The piti (rapture) and possibly sukha (bliss/contentment) as 'jhanic factors' might qualify.
Kundalini very likely.
The seven chakras in the body are associated with the seven major glandular (hormonal) organs in some traditional asian medical systems. (Some systems, e.g. Theosophy, postulate additional chakras extending both upwards and downwards outside the physical organism.)
Yes but how? I don't want to look like Ramana haha
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 2/15/15 1:46 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/15/15 1:46 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
Interesting, one might wonder if everyone that goes through a no testosterone time would experience something similar, though, I was not able to find anyone else that described it like that, for everyone else, I only read negative experiences from lack of testosterone.
C P M, modified 9 Years ago at 2/15/15 2:40 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/15/15 2:40 PM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 218 Join Date: 5/23/13 Recent PostsPål, modified 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 8:38 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 8:38 AM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent PostsC P M, modified 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 9:08 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 9:08 AM
RE: A man without desire
Posts: 218 Join Date: 5/23/13 Recent PostsPål:
True. But he did hatha yoga, right?
I don't know, I was just attempting humour by referencing an internet meme.