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Investigating MCTB
Answer
4/28/15 7:46 AM
I alternate between two sides. Where i am thinking that MCTB 4th path is easy, that means quick to achieve when knowing what to watch.

Finishing up my Revised Four Path Model, arahats have finally
untangled the knot of perception, dissolved the sense of the center point
actually being the center point, no longer fundamentally make a
separate Self out of the patterns of sensations that they used to, even
though those same patterns of sensations continue. This is a different
understanding from those of Third Path in some subtle way, and makes
this path about something that is beyond the paths. This is also
poetically called the opening of the Wisdom Eye.
What i think what it is is the source of the self. Where all senses originate. 

The Wisdom Eye may seem to blink initially. It may go through
cycles of flashing open just after a Fruition and then slowly fading over a
few hours (at least on retreat) as each round of physical sensations, then
mental sensations, then complex emotional formations, then lastly
fundamental formations such as inquiry itself move through and
become integrated into this new, correct and direct perception of reality
as it is.
It blinks because energies needed to be pulled up to properly experience the 4th path fruition, but more you do it say couple times or three times you don't need anymore.  What i think it is its the fruition, same what happens at stream entry but at the 4th the knot of the perception is included.

Finally, the Wisdom Eye cycles and insight cycles all converge, and
the thing stays open from then on, which is to say that at that point it all
seems the same whether or not the eye is open, which it actually was.
Getting used to the new stuff.
This is about it. MCTB is about opening wisdom eye by resolving the knot in perception.
----------------
What is the quick way to reach this wisdom eye opening 4th path:

The first understanding is that sensations are sensations, thoughts
are thoughts, and this forms the basis of further inquiry. When the
universal characteristics of these sensations begin to be seen, this
represents growth in understanding. When the whole sense field is
known directly and completely as it is, this can cause an entrance into
Fruition through one of the Three Doors, and represents the first stage
of awakening.
This is simple awareness. 

When one appreciates the cycles of the process of awakening and
has completed at least one more new progress cycle, this is the next
stage. When one begins to appreciate the emptiness, luminosity,
centerlessness, agentlessness, etc. of phenomena in real-time and this
becomes the focus of practice rather than Fruition, this is the next stage.
this is actual meditation. Equal to looking for the source of this awareness found in previous step.

When the sense of the watcher, observer, subject, controller, doer, etc.
is seen completely as it is and the knot of perception untangles, that
simple, fundamental way of perceiving things is the next stage of
awakening. When that untangling stays untangled, that is the next stage.
There is moment or phase before you can untangle the knot of perception, it is reached after previous step completes itself.
This is it. Here MCTB ends.
---------------------
I remember attaining to a Fruition, and a few seconds later I noticed
something about the entrance to it and the re-forming of the sense of a
perceiver on the back side of it, and then suddenly the knot of
perception flipped open, everything was the same and yet the
perspective on it was completely different, and my vipassana problem,
once I had stabilized in that understanding, was solved.
This sums it up well. This is when your awareness is matured and can finish the thing.

------------------
dho likes to eat posts, i will save it. this is just a start of investigation of everything related to MCTB and others.

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
4/28/15 8:53 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
Cessation of feeling and perception.

The cessation of perception and feeling, Nirodha samapatti in Pali,
is the highest of the temporary attainments.
I guess Nirodha is same what is fruition but anagami fruition is devoid of feeling and arhant nirodha is devoid of feeling and preception both.

The word “Nirodha” (meaning “Cessation”) is also sometimes used
without the qualifier “samapatti” to refer to Fruition, so be careful to
keep your terms straight when reading the old texts or speaking with
others about these things. I always mean the cessation of perception and
feeling when I use the word “Nirodha,” but others may not.

It is said that Nirodha can only be attained by anagamis and arahats
(those of 3rd and 4th path) who have some mastery of the formless
realms.
third path is cessation of feeling, fourth path cessation of perception.

Why there is so many circles, its because you actually need to see the entrance or wisdom to pass to the next point.
One attains Nirodha by fusing insight practices and concentration
practices in a fairly gentle way that is much less focused and precise than
one would do if one wanted to attain Fruition. I find it easiest to attain
when reclining, but the first time I attained it I was sitting. There is
nothing that can really be said about this attainment, except for
mentioning things about the entrance, exit, and the consequences of the
attainment. One rises through the samatha jhanas in a very low-key
fashion with some weak awareness of their true nature (the Three
Characteristics), enters the eighth jhana (neither perception nor yet nonperception),
and then emerges from that state. Sometime shortly
thereafter, and without warning or very recent premeditation, one may
suddenly enter the cessation of perception and feeling. It must be noted
that previous interest in attaining this during the preceding days or
weeks tends to increase the chances of this attainment showing up. As
one gets better at attaining this, one can slip in the inclination
(resolution) to attain it after emerging from the 8th jhana and then forget
about it before dropping in.
I could think of what are the jhanas is you tweak your perception, you will see things differently at certain points, then till you get fruition either 3rdpath or 4th path and think its Nirodha.

Unlike Fruition, one exits this attainment in the reverse of the way
one came in, with mental formations arising first, quickly followed by
physical and then verbal formations in the characteristic analogue way of
the entrance and with the same timing. After leaving this attainment, the
mind tends to be deeply peaceful and very clear, and one’s body tends
to be very relaxed.
This could be also change of lineage, or path attainment also its a fruition. Like with 4th path attainment you get used to it at some point.

One more little morsel for you brave adventurers… I have noticed
that the easiest time to attain Nirodha is usually a few weeks after
attaining a path, when the vipassana jhana aspect of the progress of
insight is becoming clear and a nice degree of mastery has been attained
in that Review phase. However, it has this nice/nasty habit of helping to
precipitate a new progress cycle, as the level of clarity gained in its wake
is impressive. Thus, one may go from the best highs of a Review phase
and Nirodha’s glorious afterglow to the 3rd ñana, A&P and the Dark
Night quickly. In fact, this seems to be a very natural part of many cycles
of anagamis who also know the samatha jhanas and formless realms.
I believe this is the part your awareness has become mature revisiting? 3rd MCTB path and ready to untangle the perception knot.

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
4/30/15 3:46 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
Nirodha Samapatti is not Fruition. It is not different at 3rd vs 4th path.

It is entirely its own thing. It is very, very different in terms of setup, entrance, exit and after-effects.

This is not an term to be wattered down, soft-pedaled, or re-framed. It is a high attainment that performs as advertised. It is very rare. I know few people who can and have done the real thing.

Claiming to have gotten something that people were calling NS was all the rage here a few years ago, but every one of those descriptions back in the day sounded nothing like the real deal to me. They described the passage of time. They didn't have massive, extremely long-lasting afterglows, they didn't precisely describe the right entrance and exit. It was mostly described by people who also did things like describing true formless realms as having some form, which the real formless realms don't. Yes, there are plenty of attainments that have some formless elements mixed with form (that I describe as things like j4.j6 as opposed to j6, for example) but the real formless realms are still just like you would figure: formless. Body gone. Forms gone. Differentiated things gone.

With the rejuvination of some forces of dharma in the online world that have had a previous habit of watering down these sorts of attainment criteria in the past, let me advocate for keeping the standards high. I admit to profound annoyance at the occurrence of trends to over-call weak practice.

They lead to people practicing badly, mis-labeling meditative occurrences, settling for low standards, and being short-changed of the possibility of actually experiencing the real thing, as they think they have and so go no further. They then spread this mush around and create the same problems in others and even form clubs out of this.

I was strangely relieved the last time this trend here on the DhO ended. I hope it doesn't start again.

Keeping this real and about practice: the last time I tried for NS I failed. I was on my last retreat in February, the fire kasina retreat, and I just couldn't get the colors to go away, as I had been focusing on them for so many hours for about 10 days at that point, so probably 100+ hours or so, and, since I couldn't get the colors and shapes to go away, I so couldn't get true formless realms, as they were burned so hard onto my practice at that time, and so I couldn't do the proper set up at all and nothing beyond a mere Fruition happened at the end, which was disappointing but not surprising.

The first probably 30-50 times I tried for NS, I failed. That was in late 1996. I could get the set up, but NS just didn't happen. I tried again and again anyway, sit after sit, and was lucky to have a life that allowed 3-5 hours per day of practice then. Finally, after many attempts and about a month of failing, I got it totally by surprise, which is the environment it happens best in, actually, as you have to be able to forget about the intention to have it happen for it to happen. This is obviously as hard as it sounds. You also have to have all the right pre-reqs and setup, and then there is clearly something else that you need to have, and that just seems to come from practice for a very few practitioners.

Daniel

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
4/30/15 8:12 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Hi Daniel,

That all makes sense but do you believe that a small percentagbe of people would get it if they followed the same process as you did ? Or is it that a small percentage of people put in the right effort ?

I can see some risk of painting things out as random and "luck" - maybe it is helpful for the unlucky. Let us know emoticon

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
4/30/15 11:51 PM as a reply to Mark.
It is hard to be certain what all the final factors are that tip the balance over to make it happen.

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
5/25/15 6:16 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
No watering down happening. 
MCTB is not high level sutra compatible. It will nullify the possibility to water down MCTB attainments while holy texts telling something "outwordly" like lightbody, emotions mastered.
Clear point is that sutra models are centered around craving, emotions, afflictions. Absolute freedom from afflictions as a goal even before you enter the stream as a requierment.

That above point is what is main issue for the outside of Dho'ers, MCTB'ers. If you google enlightenment you can get comments like enlightened being can fly, freedom from three meals etc that is what enlighenment is, is about mastering.

1)having a body outside of physical body
2)transforming physical body to whatever
These above are mastered after you have mastered first three skandhas.
There are 12 levels of sutras.
Possibly at first level(s), buddha is pictured as a mortal suffering.

Some more topics.
II
Percepts. Is mandatory.
Its said if you follow pure living you get all sorts of powers.

III
Meditation, cultivation. 

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
5/26/15 4:23 PM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
The suttas are not high level sutta compatible, while we are at it. The stories don't all line up. The criteria, perspectives, occurrences, myths, dogmas, and the like: they don't all add up. I don't want to start some war with the "The Suttas are Perfect" types among us, but there is a lot of crazy mixed into the gold.

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
6/11/15 8:11 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Its most hard not to think that i am enlightened or somehow smarter than others: There is a path to "oh man, i am wrong". 

After i get destroyed i start from a clean sheet, there is no desires. So there i think i have eliminated desires. But after a while there rises lust without any object requiered(naked woman..). I overcome it. Then i get inspired and get cocky and usually start writing stuff and telling others how things work.. 
I am stuck in desire realms. I read from sutras that in order to enter jhanas you need to overcome desires. So guess what i thought that i have entered all jhanas, but it comes out differently and of course it doesn't line up what sutras say.

To me it feels MCTB doesn't even get to higher desire realms but is stuck with self-defeat what isn't even done properly but just takes another object "i am enlightened".

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
7/7/15 6:18 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
i now understand better the difference of 3th path and 4th path void.

At 3th path void is attained by eyes but the 4th path void is allinclusive flushout of all energy there is and leaves you with a tranquility for possible of many days because after the first thought, energies start again slowly piling up and it takes time to become normal again.

Also whats 3th path void is you will now can become above heart after the unknown event. There what happens in this unknown event is that you will take your essence from the void below and drag it to eyes for vitalizing, but these processes are seen when more detailed few is achieved.

I can bet on it tha that the whole from 1st to 4th path proceesses are reapeatable but they are never the same because there is greater process going on what is still on a noob level and after 4th level MCTB it will advange one level.

After 4th level in order to start again , there will be done reconnection to the heart by falling in love with the earth again.

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/4/15 2:22 PM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
I attained fourth path as MCTB, and specifically forthcoming MCTB2, defines it July 30, 2015, which was the penultimate day of a Mahamudra retreat. Daniel's  criteria for fourth path are nearly, and uncannily, identical to those listed in the Indo-Tibetan tradition and named Awakened Wisdom. In fact, his new criteria for third path uncannily match the Indo-Tibetan (essence Mahamudra) criteria for Nondual Awareness ("luminosity"). This is a lesser attainment than Awakened Wisdom (i.e., fourth path). However, Awakened Wisdom, in the Tibetan system is not "enlightenment." That word is reserved for those who become buddhas.

For whatever it may be worth, which may be little or nothing since you don't know me from Eve, my experience of Awakened Wisdom so far matches Daniel's descriptions more closely than it does any other descriptions, with just a few qualifications I would make, specifically with regard to emotional processing and reactivity (nonreactivity). It is not emotional perfection, though, whatever that may defined to be--at least it is not loss of emotions. It is, so far, great attenuation of unskillful/delusional reactivity to whatever emotions arise. There is a difference, however subtle it is linguistically and conceptually.

Moreover, many habitually emotionally triggering situations no longer trigger arising of sensations I call "emotion" at all. For example, my husband leaves his laundry in the washer when I need to do my laundry. This normally triggers arising of all the thoughts and bodily sensations of "irritation." This routine event happened the other day. I had the habitual thought, "Oh--he left his laundry in the washer again!" And, mentally, I had the thoughts that normally produce "irritation." "Oh, this makes me mad." I even asked him in my routine semi-cross manner to "please keep the laundry moving, Kurt!" But no bodily sensations of the usual irritation emotion arose whatsoever. This was a very strange experience--almost dissociative in effect. I don't know yet, but maybe my purely cognitive thoughts and speech-act patterns in this vein will soon stop, for there is no emotion to actually fuel them anymore. Very strange indeed, and I'm noticing it even with positive emotions often enough--such as what I normally think of as love. I don't yet know what to make of that.

The difference between third path and fourth is a "quantum leap" in magnitude. Perception is what is utterly deconstructed at fourth, such that a whole series of boundaries fall away--boundaries that currently, or in mature third path, you do not even know are there. When they fall, when the field of "objects," including one's body and karmic habitual patterns of sensation, including those patterns of sensation we call "emotion" (why would they be excluded?), no longer rely on, imply, or create a subject vantage-point, then the vastness of awareness soars without limitation. It saturates and granularly integrates with "relative reality," with the "object" field, with all that experientially arises and passes in what we normally think of as time. And this awareness is not "mine." It is changeless, boundless, timeless, yet unfindable as an entity.

This thoroughgoing deconstruction of perception itself means "perception" as centralized processing of reality is utterly dropped, gone, as the useless, stressful, and delusional prop-up that it is. It is known to be Chimera. Boundarylessness and subjectlessness are freedom, are wisdom, are the fruition of all insights into the Three Characteristics. Insight has cut right through those so-called characteristics.

In the Indo-Tibetan system, this Awakened Wisdom is the biggie. It ends duality, so it ends fundamental suffering. It ends craving to be separate/controlling yet not separated from all "otherness." And that ending quashes reactivity (dukkha), for reactivity is none other than a delusional belief in separateness and a control that exists from some sort of posited outside to the other we paradoxically crave union with.

This is much, though not all, of my take, so far, on what is still evolving, settling, and showing its implications to me. There are many possible paths of development from here. The Tibetans work via vajrayana on compassion, psychology, and power (siddhis). They seek buddahood. Whole worlds to explore have opened up now that the Big Problem is solved. This attainment itself has to be completely clean and thorough, first, such that awareness, ultimate reality, never recedes, not for a single moment, not even in sleep and dreams. All must be lucid awareness before, say, higher practices of Dzogchen begin. 

So my advice is to get MCTB fourth path first. It will make all the rest that you want to develop much more workable, including all that emotional/psychological/relative stuff. 

Just my take on awakening so far on this lovely day off in North Carolina.

Blessings all,

Jenny

EDITED

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/4/15 1:30 PM as a reply to Jenny.
By the way, I attained to Nirodha Samapatti weeks before attaining to MCTB fourth path. And it was the real thing, the power down, utter loss of time and consciousness for around 30 minutes, and the distinctive powering back up. And, as Daniel says, it should not be framed in such a way that it is watered down. It is unique among attainments, and any proposed "lite" version of it is not it at all. So say I, from firsthand experience. The 13 hours of intense peace and bliss that follow are a real treat. Highly recommended if you can get it. 

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/4/15 2:14 PM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
I read from sutras that in order to enter jhanas you need to overcome desires. So guess what i thought that i have entered all jhanas, but it comes out differently and of course it doesn't line up what sutras say.

Please quote and give the citation. You cannot really expect people to believe an interpretation that so devoid of the proof text it proports to interpret.

I am no sutta scholar, but either you are misinterpreting, or the suttas are dead wrong on this score. I have mastered all 8 jhanas well enough to have attained Nirodha Samapatti once. I assure you that I still had desires and aversions before, during, and after the period in which I attained those states, including lust and rage. So that is utter bullshit. Sorry to sound so positional, but I am just speaking from direct experience. 

Again, I would advise focusing on technique and practice, not the results you want (freedom from feelings). The only way out is through. MCTB is correct. Practice well, run the experiment to fruition, and then draw your conclusions.

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/5/15 2:18 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Wow, congrats! Sounds great! 

And now it's even harder to wait for MCTB2 to come out!

(if only two f-ing arahants could get their acts together and finish a common project - maybe a chapter for a "Perfect project management model" should be added to the models of enlightenment section to then be thoroughly debunked emoticon

In any case, congrats again, and maybe post this to the claims to attainments section such that it's easier to find for future 3rd pathers trying to figure things out? (or simply as some inspiration to those of us lower on the foodchain)

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/5/15 6:07 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Jenny:
...then the vastness of awareness soars without limitation. It saturates and granularly integrates with "relative reality," with the "object" field, with all that experientially arises and passes in what we normally think of as time. And this awareness is not "mine." It is changeless, boundless, timeless, yet unfindable as an entity.

...such that awareness, ultimate reality, never recedes, not for a single moment, not even in sleep and dreams....

(emphasis mine)

sounds more like some hinduistic attainement. Like something eckhardt tolle, adyashanti, ramana maharshi, ajahn maha boowa, mooji would say...

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/5/15 6:31 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Jenny:
I read from sutras that in order to enter jhanas you need to overcome desires. So guess what i thought that i have entered all jhanas, but it comes out differently and of course it doesn't line up what sutras say.

Please quote and give the citation. You cannot really expect people to believe an interpretation that so devoid of the proof text it proports to interpret.

I am no sutta scholar, but either you are misinterpreting, or the suttas are dead wrong on this score. I have mastered all 8 jhanas well enough to have attained Nirodha Samapatti once. I assure you that I still had desires and aversions before, during, and after the period in which I attained those states, including lust and rage. So that is utter bullshit. 
Below are some definitions for the five hindrances. Only suppressing those though is not 1st jhana. It is access concentration. Only after attaining acces concentration one can strengthen the jhana factors and enter the jhanas. So if you say that you had hindrances while being in jhana i think you are mistaken. You didn't even reach access concentration.

MN 39
    Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world [a synonym for the first hindrance], he dwells with a mind devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning aversion and anger, he dwells with a mind devoid of aversion, sympathetic to the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of aversion and anger. Abandoning lethargy and drowsiness, he dwells with a mind devoid of lethargy and drowsiness, mindful, fully aware, clearly percipient. He cleanses his mind of lethargy and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety. Abandoning doubt, he dwells having crossed over doubt, with no perplexity with regard to skillful phenomena. He cleanses his mind of doubt.

the five hindrances (pañcanīvaraṇā). MN 43:
    Five factors are abandoned in the first jhāna.... Here, when a monk has entered the first jhāna, desire for sensual pleasure (kāmacchanda) is abandoned, aversion (byāpāda) is abandoned, lethargy and drowsiness (thīnamiddha) is abandoned, restlessness and anxiety (uddhaccakukkucca) is abandoned, doubt (vicikicchā) is abandoned.

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/5/15 11:32 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Jenny:
I attained fourth path as MCTB, and specifically forthcoming MCTB2, defines it July 30, 2015, which was the penultimate day of a Mahamudra retreat.
Hey Jenny, I see you are not waiting the classical year-and-a-day for your claim to attainment. What makes you certain? Important: I do not mean this skeptically but as in: I am very curious! emoticon


Jenny:

Daniel's  criteria for fourth path are nearly, and uncannily, identical to those listed in the Indo-Tibetan tradition and named Awakened Wisdom. In fact, his new criteria for third path uncannily match the Indo-Tibetan (essence Mahamudra) criteria for Nondual Awareness ("luminosity"). This is a lesser attainment than Awakened Wisdom (i.e., fourth path). However, Awakened Wisdom, in the Tibetan system is not "enlightenment." That word is reserved for those who become buddhas.
Picture me super curious.

Do you have any Mahamudra book references on the notions of MCTB2-3rd / Nondual Awareness and MCTB2-4th / Awakened Wisdom? Are these in any relationship to the Four Yogas of Mahamudra as per e.g. Gampopa? That is, for those who have not heard these before:
1. One Pointedness
2. Simplicity / Free from Elaboration
3. One Taste
4. Nonmeditation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahamudra#Four_yogas
(See for example Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, "Clarifying the Natural State" or Peter Barth, "A Meditation Guide for Mahamudra".)

I see that the term "Awakened Wisdom" is used e.g. in "The Stages of Meditation in the Mahamudra Tradition" by Daniel Brown. I had a brief look at the book and it seems to be in some relation to 4. Nonmeditation, is this correct? I suspect
- Greater One Taste = Nondual Awareness = MCTB2-3rd
- Greater Nonmeditation = yeshe = Original Wakefulness or Awakened Wisdom = MCTB2-4th

Also, do Dan's new maps make any connections between the Mahamudra maps MCTB2 1st and 2nd path?

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/5/15 3:04 PM as a reply to neko.
Before rumors of "new maps" run amok, the maps I am presenting are the essentially the same maps I have been talking about here since the beginning of this place and years before it. Some language has been tweaked to try to make what I am talking about more clear, but the core points are the same. You can find my criteria and take on these things numerous places here on the DhO, so just look around on this site and you will find.

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/5/15 4:25 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Do the language tweaks involve any Actualism inspiration?

And, Jenny, could you make a thread about your attainment claim. I have some questions but I don't think they're appropriate in this thread.

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/5/15 4:29 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
My Actualism phase did influence things a itltle bit, but not necessarily in the ways some might suspect, depending on the someone. If you have questions, I will be happy to answer them: new thread? email? skype? You can find those at www.interactivebuddha.com

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/5/15 5:38 PM as a reply to neko.
[quote=neko

]- Greater One Taste = Nondual Awareness = MCTB2-3rd
- Greater Nonmeditation = yeshe = Original Wakefulness or Awakened Wisdom = MCTB2-4th

Also, do Dan's new maps make any connections between the Mahamudra maps MCTB2 1st and 2nd path?
Neko,

Dakpo Tashi Namgyal says in Clarifying the Natural State that the Path of Seeing in the Tibetan 5 path model (Accumulation/Unification/Seeing/Meditation/No More Learning) corresponds to the cusp in the transition from the 2nd Yoga (Simplicity) to the 3rd Yoga (One Taste).  If Stream Entry=Path of Seeing, then we have the link from the 4 Yoga Map to MCTB 1st path.

As to MCTB 2nd path, I don't know.

Eric

RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/7/15 2:07 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Hi Jenny,

W.r.t. your post 5756574#_19_message_5757837, where you said:
Do you feel as if you are in a massive
A&P now? That's how I am after a path for about a month--lots of
hypomanic bliss, rising sexuality, sudden interest in magick, all the
A&P basics. It feels glorious in a distinctive way, but I think
people vary on this.
Did the same thing happen after your attainment of 4th path, described in this post?

Thanx.


RE: Investigating MCTB
Answer
9/7/15 8:50 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
re: Rist Ei (5/25/15 6:16 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.)
"Clear point is that sutra models are centered around craving, emotions, afflictions. Absolute freedom from afflictions as a goal even before you enter the stream as a requierment."

Just offering an interpretation that helps (me) clarify, or fit to my understanding. For stream-entry, no doubt as to the path is a requirement, which could be paraphrased as having as clear goal, a conviction as to the possibility of getting to freedom from afflictions; rather than saying achievement of freedom from afflictions is required at this stage. But also, "afflictions" could be defined more closely.

re: Rist Ei 6/11/15 8:11 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.)
"I am stuck in desire realms. I read from sutras that in order to enter jhanas you need to overcome desires. So guess what i thought that i have entered all jhanas, but it comes out differently and of course it doesn't line up what sutras say."

Jhana
, in the sense of absortive concentration (or "fixed penetration" as Than-Geof translates Ajahn Lee) requires putting aside sensual desires (kamachandra), and this is also temporary to the duration of the jhanic absorption, not saying that such desire will be gone totally in one's living. Other forms of 'desire', e.g. the desire to follow the path, will be present, perhaps just as a very deep sense of motivation – at least up to the very end. Than-Geof notes that his teacher – Ajahn Fuang, who was a student of Ajahn Lee – would say, in reference to the Buddha's categorical saying that all desires are to be abandoned, that one desire is to be held onto firmly as long as necessary – the desire for final liberation.

This may or may not line-up with what Jenny states (9/4/15 2:14 PM) – "I assure you that I still had desires and aversions before, during, and after the period in which I attained those states [8 jhanas]". I.e. "during… the period in which … attained" may mean around the time, but not when in actual absorption. But then also, her experiences of jhana may be according to a different system that doesn't speak of absorption.

Also, as in Superkatze one's accurate citing (9/5/15 6:31 AM as a reply to Jenny) of sutta material on jhana and the hindrances. But it should be remebered that the "suppressing" (or putting aside) of hindrances is just temporary to (access and absorptive) jhana . It says nothing of path attainments.

RE: Investigating MCTB
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9/7/15 8:55 AM as a reply to Superkatze one.
re: Superkatze one (9/5/15 6:07 AM as a reply to Jenny.)

"sounds more like some hinduistic attainement. Like something eckhardt tolle, adyashanti, ramana maharshi, ajahn maha boowa, mooji would say..."

'Relative-' and 'ultimate-reality' are very much Buddhist, albeit largely Abhidhamma terms* (and MCTB has clear Abhidhamma affiliations). 'Changeless' shows-up here quite appropriately in a list of apophatic attributes of Nibbana.

"Ajahn maha boowa" somehow ended-up on the wrong list here. He's indisputably hardcore Theravada Buddhism, and uses Abhidhamma terminology too (at least in his manifesto: Arahattamagga / The Path to Arahantship).

* And focally so, as in the very opening declaration in the Abhidhammamattha Sangaha/ Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi, 2000). See page 25, both the text and the commentary / "Guide".

RE: Investigating MCTB
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9/7/15 11:57 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Hi Jenny,
I´d also have a few additional questions: If I understand correctly you were practicing Mahamudra-style Vipassana when attaining 4th path? Was your experience similar to what is described in MTCB in the sense of being in equanimity, observing formations, letting go and passing through one of the Doors? Were the insight stages still present in the practice respectively your experience prior to 4th path? I still have a very limited understanding of Mahamudra practice, so not sure if the question makes sense.
Unfortunately, I haven´t found anybody else, yet, in a position to answer these questions. I am wondering because if I remember correctly Daniel Ingram describes that he did a lot of Mahamudra before 4th path, but went back to more of a Mahasi Sayadaw-like practice. Personally, I am somehow attracted to something that comes without the cycling and has more of a bodhicitta focus, but don´t quite know if it´s similarly effective. So I`d really appreciate some additional information.
thanks!
Caro

RE: Investigating MCTB
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9/19/15 11:08 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
There are different types of jhanas. I prefer the term samadhi. What meaning is union with self.

Heart connected with head and the link goes through a throat or mouth what itself is "forgetfulness". This allows to have same effect what dreams have, you can't escape of the meaning of reality even if you know its not real.

This has two levels of depth. One is you can maintain the activites whatever you do and other is you can't move or make physical movements. Also first level can't be done when you need to get involved too much into the activity(learning process), therefore i can't do stuff what isn't programmed into physical layer yet. So i could do the physical stuff automatically and at the same time i maintain samadhi its first level, second level i need to pause do the thing and then can continue with first level.

You are right about the temporal eradiciton of desires. It can be tested, when you become aware, then you need to remove the desires, attachments at will. But there is another level of depth, when you activate some sort of channel, it can be activated only when you reach that point after going through some previous steps. What i want to say technically is that stream entry..arhant these are fruits, once you get one you don't fall down. Therefore you can become arhant and can start again as a streamentry, but the thing is once you have the link or samadhi you can establish it fast and over time can maintain it all the time, less and less things will knock you out of it.