5-MeO-DMT

Carroza Zanzibar, modified 6 Years ago.

5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 12 Join Date: 5/22/15 Recent Posts
[Edit: CAUTION: 5-MeO-DMT and "DMT" are NOT the same substance.  5-MeO is far more potent and far less hallucinogenic.] 

In this thread, I want to start a discussion about the substance 5-MeO-DMT [henceforth "5-MeO"].  Particularly, I want to focus on:

How the experience can (e.g. when used by a meditator while meditating) resemble going through the formless jhanas, and perhaps even a nirodha samapatti.

Whether and how a 5-MeO experience can be orchestrated (including set, setting, and integration) to facilitate insight.

Whether and how 5-MeO can be used judiciously on an ongoing basis to catalyze path progress.

My experience:
Recently, I experienced the substance 5-MeO for the first time.  I meditated for 15 mins or so prior, settling into 4th jhana, then while reclining in my bed alone in the dark, insufflated 15 mg (Note: 5-MeO can be in a salt or freebase form (most common); insufflating the freebase can be quite painful).  Very quickly I was in the deepest 5th jhana I have ever experienced.  I felt so deeply merged into the vastness of space that it was both incredible and disconcerting, even though I regularly meditate into 5th jhana. 

From there, the experience accelerated into deeper territory.  It wasn't quite the same as formless jhana experiences, because sometimes there would be huge waves of ecstatic energy experienced throughout the body.  Nevertheless, the same layers of mind seemed to be being peeled away one-by-one.  The 5-MeO progressed me into 6th jhana (it seemed pretty forceful; I was just surrendering to it as much as possible) with still some additional body-energy experiences.  Soon I found myself confronting the void of 7th jhana.  On the precipice, a wave of sheer terror arose on account of the forcefulness of being merged into such a deep void, coupled with the recognition that this progression was showing no signs of slowing down. I was able to again surrender to it, and had a wonderful disintegration into void.

[Aside about where I'm at - EDIT: I don't ID as having entered the stream. [after learning a bit more about the definition of stream entry, I have to revise this, as I now believe that I met the criteria for entering the stream during this experience, years ago] I did have a week long or so A&P experience some years ago, but returned back close to "normal."[not exactly true; just didn't remain at the depth of no-self that I was in for the afterglow]. For the last 6 months, I've meditated about 1.5-2 hours / day.  I rarely am able to meditate to 7th jhana, except on retreats, which I haven't been on in about a year.  I meditated to 8th jhana once or twice, which preciptated my stream entry in the afterglow, if I'm remembering correctly. Haven't been back to 8th in years.]
 

Whatever minimal experience there still was in that 7th jhana-like state seemed to stop, and I entered unfamiliar territory.  There was barely any vestige of conscious awareness left at this point, so in that sense it felt kind of like one might imagine dying would feel like.  At this point, there was a sense of consciousness flickering like a light bulb, and I can't be sure that I didn't lose consciousness for some time.  The next thing I remember was experiencing some kind of undifferentiated null state that was even more primordial than the 7th jhana void.  There was no ability to be contemplating this state while in it, but some ability to recognize what it had been like after emerging.  It’s how I imagine being in the womb would feel like. Eventually (no sense of time whatsoever at this point), some experience came into this null state.  There was an auditory tonal tinnitus experience and kind of a white-light experience, although it didn't quite seem visual, just kind of the subjective impression that a white light might make.  From there, layers of mind started coming back online one-by-one. This felt like being reborn.

In retrospect, it would have been best to have drawn out the experience by staying in meditation with the unity/beingness for as long as possible, but I was so amazed by what I had just experienced that I started writing down an account of it.

Psychedelics often give one a sense of being "reset," but often leave me with a certain type of hangover of being trapped within the mind. The mind is typically a much better place to be post-trip than pre-trip, because there's a freshness and greater integration and perspective. However, it's unmistakably harder for me to access consciousness beyond thought/ego for a few days post-trip.

The post-trip experience with 5-MeO was opposite to that. For days afterwards, I was tapping back into similar body energy and had easier access to perspectives outside of thought and ego and easier access to the formless jhanas than I had had in a while. I couldn't meditate back to the same depth as the 5-MeO experience itself, but could get closer more reliably. And I felt more deeply immersed in quasi meditative states throughout the day.

My experience doesn't seem to be that unusual compared to Erowid trip reports and what's reported in Tryptamine Palace (one of the few books on 5-MeO). Yet the typical psychonaut doesn't have the meditative experience that I have. It's been well-discussed, e.g. in Zig Zag Zen, that a lot of the boomers who got into Eastern spiritualties did so at least partially on account of an initial taste of nondual experience from psychedelics, especially LSD.  It seems that 5-MeO offers a far purer and deeper nondual experience than the classical psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline).  This makes me wonder why there is so little knowledge and use of it among serious practitioners (e.g. very few mentions on this forum). I also haven’t seen accounts of people taking up a serious spiritual practice after experiencing 5-MeO. I wonder why?

The real questions that I want to discuss in this thread are:

Can 5-MeO be useful as a part of practice?  Specifically, I'm thinking along the lines of:

  • Useful for motivational purposes - I.e. a direct experience of what no-self states are like as motivation to practice to realize them on an ongoing basis.
  • Useful for getting a feel for the next step or two in meditation practice.  E.g. ability to access states on one's own that were impossible previously, and ability to regularly access states that were difficult previously.
  • Useful for weakening identity-view.  Being thrust into such deep no-self states seems to at least temporarily weaken identity view in the aftermath.  Can this afterglow be leveraged for insight work? Is the afterglow similar to that from Nirodha Samapatti?
I found at least one account of someone (Martin Ball) purporting to have realized ongoing nondual experience through the intentional and repeated use of 5-MeO along with some yoga-energy practices. He has a book on it called Being Human. So there is plausibility.

It makes me wonder what the potential would be if this community started systematic intentional experimentation, comparing notes as we go. I for one at least intend to do this. I’ll keep posting here if there’s interest and collaboration.
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Noah S, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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some initial thoughts:

I smoked DMT once and found it to be very interesting, saw trees breathing and such, but didn't break through that barrier to actually get the hardcore stuff, i.e. talking to aliens.  Terrence Mckenna said that the purity of your DMT matters a ton.  So if you do a lot of low-quality DMT, it won't work for insight.  Rather you need a small amount of high quality stuff.

I know people who have done it for mystical reasons.  In particular, the person I am thinking of experienced incredible emptiness-type states as well as what I believe to be formless jhanas.  This was mixed in with synesthia-type effects and feeling other prescences in the room.  The practice of communicating with external entities reminds me of what I have heard about various Vajrayana practices.  For instance, in the Hurricane Ranch discussions, Hokai Sobol talks about inviting in a third-party prescence to witness your diety practice at a certain stage.  I also have a small amount of experience invoking Vajra Pani and White Tara and have sort of felt their prescences in the room.

some further thoughts:

Only people who have good mental and emotional health as well as balanced, grounded lifestyles as well as good meditative and psychadelic experience should participate in your project.  I won't be joining, haha :p

I think you are doing it the right way by meditating first and also by framing it in terms of jhanas, nanas, etc.  I don't think there is one, right way to "do it", once you are in the trip.  Meaning, NS isn't necessarily a better way to spend your time than 7th jhana or PL1.  I also think the DMT/insight hybrid practice could benefit from formal resolutions, i.e. "My goal is to experiment with as many hard jhanas as possible", or "My goal is to use this time to get extended NS."
C P M, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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An interesting first post.  I read Rick Strassman's book “DMT The Spirit Molecule” a while back.  In part of the book he describes the conflict that occurred with his Zen community over the research he was doing. If I remember, that part was painful for him.  I think he was also interested in DMT as a spiritual tool.

I'd personally be too apprehensive about using such a powerful substance.
Carroza Zanzibar, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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C P M:
 I think he was also interested in DMT as a spiritual tool.


It's important to disambiguate n,n-DMT (which is typically referred to as "DMT") from 5-MeO-DMT.  While there are some similarities between the two, 5-MeO typically does not produce strong visuals, nor encounters with what seem to be other beings.  5-MeO is more unitive.  I'd like to confine the discussion to 5-MeO for the most part.  

It's also a dangerous situation when people have 5-MeO and use "DMT" guidelines for dosing.  5-MeO is far more potent, which could lead to a massive overdose in such a case.
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Noah S, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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Carroza Zanzibar:
C P M:
 I think he was also interested in DMT as a spiritual tool.


It's important to disambiguate n,n-DMT (which is typically referred to as "DMT") from 5-MeO-DMT.  While there are some similarities between the two, 5-MeO typically does not produce strong visuals, nor encounters with what seem to be other beings.  5-MeO is more unitive.  I'd like to confine the discussion to 5-MeO for the most part.  

It's also a dangerous situation when people have 5-MeO and use "DMT" guidelines for dosing.  5-MeO is far more potent, which could lead to a massive overdose in such a case.
Oh, true.  So I'm not familiar with the difference.  I'm definitely not qualified to speak on it then.
Oochdd, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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Word of warning to people that might be interested in trying this: 5-meo-dmt is seriously powerful stuff. This is not your average acid or mushroom trip. In december I took it with some friends (we divided 47mg in three lines, so about the same amount that you took), and all three of us were completely blasted away. Don't remember most of the experience, but my friends especially experienced the most intense fear you can imagine. Afterwards there was blood and vomit everywhere, none us can remember by whom, when or how. One of my friends actually passed out and for a couple of minutes we actually believed she had died. Imagine having to deal with that in the most intensive trip of your life. She is still dealing with the aftershocks, and is currently sitting at home not being able to work due to recurring panic attacks. 

So yes, you could hang out in the deepest most beautiful jhana, or get stuck in the deepest most powerful fear nana you can imagine. Feel like rolling the dice?

Having said that, in the weeks after that experience I (or maybe even during, although I'm not sure that's possible) I probably got first path. It might have happened anyway, but I'm pretty sure it knocked something loose that allowed me to make much faster progress.
Carroza Zanzibar, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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Oochdd:
Word of warning to people that might be interested in trying this: 5-meo-dmt is seriously powerful stuff. This is not your average acid or mushroom trip. 

. . .Having said that, in the weeks after that experience I (or maybe even during, although I'm not sure that's possible)I probably got first path. It might have happened anyway, but I'm pretty sure it knocked something loose that allowed me to make much faster progress.

Yes, this cannot be emphasized enough.  This is no toy, not a party drug, not a "fun" drug, not even a psychedelic drug.  Nevertheless, I'm pretty convinced (and your report supports this) that it can be quite a powerful tool for contemplatives, when used with respect, caution, proper preparation and setting.  I think that ability it has to loosen up the ties of egoic identification should be catalytic when combined with serious meditation and insight practice.  

If I could run any experiment I wanted, I would take a retreat of willing volunteers, and randomly assign half of them to a group that doses 5-MeO once a day for the whole retreat, while the other half just has a typical retreat.  Then measure outcomes and subjective reports post retreat. Im essentially volunteering to be such a subject.  Anyone else interested?
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Noah S, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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Carroza Zanzibar:
Oochdd:
Word of warning to people that might be interested in trying this: 5-meo-dmt is seriously powerful stuff. This is not your average acid or mushroom trip. 

. . .Having said that, in the weeks after that experience I (or maybe even during, although I'm not sure that's possible)I probably got first path. It might have happened anyway, but I'm pretty sure it knocked something loose that allowed me to make much faster progress.

Yes, this cannot be emphasized enough.  This is no toy, not a party drug, not a "fun" drug, not even a psychedelic drug.  Nevertheless, I'm pretty convinced (and your report supports this) that it can be quite a powerful tool for contemplatives, when used with respect, caution, proper preparation and setting.  I think that ability it has to loosen up the ties of egoic identification should be catalytic when combined with serious meditation and insight practice.  

If I could run any experiment I wanted, I would take a retreat of willing volunteers, and randomly assign half of them to a group that doses 5-MeO once a day for the whole retreat, while the other half just has a typical retreat.  Then measure outcomes and subjective reports post retreat. Im essentially volunteering to be such a subject.  Anyone else interested?


Okay, so I would be down to join the experiment after technical-4th-Path and also after plateauing in all other measurable areas of obvious direction AF, Brahma-Vihara, Jhana, so, in another year or two.  I would use it as a plateau buster, ala weightlifting strategy.  But not now, as business is good, so to speak.
Carroza Zanzibar, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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It would probably be a great plateau buster emoticon
Oochdd, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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Yeah, I thought about using it to try to get through the dark night of this cycle in case it gets too annoying or the timing is bad (currently just tipping into a new A&P, so will be a while still hopefully)

On the other hand I have some trepidation that insight gotten on psychedelics can be specific to that psychedelic state, i.e. it might not readily translate or be reproducable outside of that state. 
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Noah S, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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Carroza Zanzibar:
It would probably be a great plateau buster emoticon


Okay, so if we're both still on the Dho in some time then I will get back to you!
Ehud, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 2 Join Date: 5/24/15 Recent Posts
I find your post very interesting, and I had to sign up for an account on this site just to reply to it.  

My first entheogenic experience was just a few months ago.  Before that, I had recreationally used a couple of natural substances for a brief period about a decade ago, but never with any serious intent or appreciation of their potential.  The ceremony I participated in consisted of me smoking 100mg of venom of the Bufo Alavarius Toad, which is known to contain anywhere from 10%-25% 5-MeO-DMT.  The experience I had was the most intense that it changed me in ways I am still discovering.  I have an written about it here.

I felt compelled to start meditating in the weeks following my trip.  Before that I had not much interest in meditation and no experience.  What I believe started it was about a week after, I was lying in bed about to sleep when I felt my self kind of connect or start to slide back into a state similar to my experience, which is completely common from the what I've read and been told.   At first it scared me, but I soon realized that I could stop it ( actually my fear stopped it from going any farther).  After that I was convinced that what I had experienced was something along the lines of what one could experience with serious practice of meditation.  Maybe not to the depth or level that I had achieved with 5-MeO, but I'm not sure.I  continued to have a similiar experience to what you described, ocasionally having the feeling of tapping back into the same types of energies and being in quasi meditative states, although I have never actually acheived such a thing through meditation before, this description feels right.  I started to practice some meditation, although I had not really read much about it or the techniques.  I only knew that I must clear my mind and allow myself to kind of drift off.  Anytime that I felt I was begining to "go somewhere" my mind would get "busy" and keep me from acheiving anything deep.  

I would like to stress one thing that has already been said, there is a very distinct difference between 5-MeO-DMT and n,n-DMT (the latter commonly being refered to as DMT).  5 MeO-DMT is far more potent and at the doses that n,n is usually taken at and could be considered overdosal.  I have done a lot of reading, and although I haven't done n,n-DMT it seems apperent to me that the effects are also profoundly different.
Carroza Zanzibar, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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Ehud, great to hear your report on the metamorphisis that 5-MeO catalyzed for you.  Do you intend to use it again, or do you think you got all there was from it in your first experience?  I would suspect that when your meditation practice has progressed a good deal, then your potential experience with 5-MeO may be greater (if that's even possible!), or at least changed.  What do you think?
Ehud, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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At first I didn't think I could do it again, but as time passes I feel the experience slowly fading.  I now believe I will use it again but currently I am still not ready for it yet.  I have the utmost respect for it, and plan on only using it sparingly and in conjunction with other tools to maximize its benefit.  I think practice with meditation can help one to understand the states/levels one goes through on a 5-MeO trip better, but I think meditation pratice is what truly benefits.  I believe 5-MeO can help one to achieve deeper meditative states. 
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Michael, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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Hi Carroza,

Your experiment sounds interesting. I'm also trying to find out what happened to me recently, after experiencing an Ayahuasca ceremony for the first time. I don't know what kind of DMT was in the medicine, but it has definitely shaken up some deep egoic mechanisms, and I too feel reborn. 

I'm wondering the relationship between an A&P and a near-death experience. And I'm also wondering if others use the sacred Aya medicine specifically for fundamental insight practice, rather than focusing on content of psychological issues. In my experience, it's definitely possible, but not guaranteed by any means that the medicine won't decide to show you something else entirely. I remember at one point having the intention to sweep thru the body (Goenka style) and notice the Three Characteristics, but then being pulled into another experience where the Three Characteristics were definitely present, but not in a way I'd ever experienced before. The fractal nature of reality became apparent unlike ever before. For a while I grappled with trying to get back into my body in a way that was familiar (sweeping), but then realizing that this would be an instance not to 'mix techniques' or be fixated on my sweeping agenda. So I dropped it and went with the medicine on whatever she was showing me. During periods of suffering, I would feel it directly in my body, going into it, as per the Mahasi style of insight (at least my understanding of it). It seems like this Mahasi style of insight practice would have been more fitting for this experience, because of the flexibility in exploring whatever experience was predominating. I can understand why this can feel like a more natural approach to seeing clearly.

Anyways, I could go on, but thought I'd throw that out there. I hope to get some feedback or reflections from others who may have traveled this road in this way before me.

May your journeys continue peacefully.

Metta,

Michael
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SeTyR ZeN, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 113 Join Date: 9/9/14 Recent Posts
Hi Michael ;

Drank traditional ayahuasca around 8years ago; (banesteropsis as MAOI + Psychotria viridis as triptamine source + ~ 50 ingredients like tobacco, coca, brunsfelia (;) etc.. )

Thats where i cracked open what at that time i understand as my armor, my outershell . Since then i woke up slowly to this day, and la madre is still doing its workings, that is reminding me to be true to what she showed me and what i promised ..never ever lie again to myself and some other stuff , but theses are - you guess it - indicible ; It is today wonderfull i met her, and i must admit one should probably, some time in their quite adult life, try it (but in true traditional manner, not solo style )

I don't think drinking yagé alot will help in the long run. My opinion is one can use it from time to time if needed (its medecine, do you take medecin on purpose everyday ?) , its there to show you, and heal you so you can continue on your own legs after all that damage one did to himself (see mama, no crutch!) . And then there is effort to be done, work to be done by oneself to carry on and flower again .. otherwise no lesson gets in, and i guess, no upper last "liberation", or "enlightenment" comes

Smoking n-n-dimethyltripamine or 5meo, or bufo , any of this molecule family and many others , i guess because its 15mins trip, 0 to 100 in 30secs compared to drinking yagé and spending 10-15h meditating, singing/whisteling, smoking tobacco and socialy interact (with a shaman, with the others )  Not much to learn there, more than that indicible you can't take back with you in everydays life. Ok if you want to be comforted, reminded now and then that nature has incredible innersecrets, zillionns of them, each accessible in one way, each showing , explaining some beautifull, majestual mecanisms or perspective on the immediat present, life.. but there is one only secret state, place .. call it whatever , only one has access to, and with nothing but himself .. it is "what it is to be human" .. i think practicing (vajrayana/whatever...) should be done with what is really there , anytime, anywhere .. that is your naked body, and mostly possible naked "mind"  emoticon
Carroza Zanzibar, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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SeTyR ZeN:
Smoking n-n-dimethyltripamine or 5meo, or bufo , any of this molecule family and many others , i guess because its 15mins trip, 0 to 100 in 30secs 

This is why it may be superior to insufflate 5-MeO (in a salt form) or bufotenine (in either salt or freebase form), but apparently n,n-DMT requires too much / is too painful to insufflate effectively.  Insufflation can draw out the time period and gives a more gradual ramp up.  

One protocol recommended by Metzner in The Toad and the Jaguar is: meditating in advance, then insufflating about 5mg of 5-MeO, which is typically insufficient for full ego death, and continuing to meditate for another ~20 mins to get adjusted to that depth, before insufflating another 5-10mg (as little as is necessary to go as deeply as desired).  He reported this resulted in fewer fear responses and better memory and integration, while still enabling the full depth of the experience.
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SeTyR ZeN, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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Hi Dear Carroza;  Want a master-tip ? emoticon no need to insuflate, go enema ;)
Im not kidding ; will allow you slow onset, maximum absorbtion (any of the molecule you want .. so you can do the one you really think is best for your idea) .. but lower a bit the dosage, it gonna be powerfull

You could also micro-dose ; again, thats another approach (think the frog in a slowly but steadily warming water) 

Stay safe, Take care!
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SeTyR ZeN, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 113 Join Date: 9/9/14 Recent Posts
As an illustration , here is Krystle's exp (don't already know here ? search about her past emoticon )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnmFIudvCZ0
Carroza Zanzibar, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 12 Join Date: 5/22/15 Recent Posts
SeTyR ZeN:
Hi Dear Carroza;  Want a master-tip ? emoticon no need to insuflate, go enema ;)
Im not kidding ; will allow you slow onset, maximum absorbtion (any of the molecule you want .. so you can do the one you really think is best for your idea) .. but lower a bit the dosage, it gonna be powerfull

You could also micro-dose ; again, thats another approach (think the frog in a slowly but steadily warming water) 

Stay safe, Take care!
You first SeTyR Zen ;)  Let us know how it goes.  

I've tried a few smaller doses (you can get some activity sublingually (use a salt form or else it will burn)).  It can be useful and it can facilitate meditation, but there's also the temptation for the self to "hijack" the experience by getting high off of the unleashed energy.  This substance is very kinesthethic, i.e. there's this feel to the unity/nonduality of it.  The great thing is that an imprint of the feel remains post hoc and provides a breadcrumb trail to follow back into the experience.  I notice the experience reemerges sometimes spontaneously, both in and out of meditation. I can also tap into it intentionally.  The low doses help keep the imprint of the feel.  However, they aren't at all a substitute for completely annihilating the self though with a breakthrough dose.  Totally different experiences and effects.

So I'm not sure that low doses are really useful for insight progress.  On the plus side, they help with the imprint, which helps facilitate ongoing nondual experience, and helps with getting into deeper meditative states.  On the minus side, the energy is somewhat euphoric, but not in the league of cocaine, amphetamines or MDMA.  Doing too much low dose might block equanimity and "bind one in golden chains."  

Need more data!
joey allisone, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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5-Meo is legal in Mexico and Canada (so far...). However China prohibition on 5MEO last year (2015) has effected the suppliers. Does anyone know where someone in Mexico or Canada can purchase good quality 5MEO from a highly reputable manufacter/vendor? I've heard the more pure the more cost but if one is to be ingesting this than the price is well worth it and there is a hella' difference between substance that is 99% pure versus 99.9% pure.
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Barnaby Maichael Andersun, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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I don't know where you could just purchsae it Joey, but I'd be recommending that you look into a way to source the Bufo Alvarius Toad version of 5-MeO DMT, it has the most potent source, 4 times that of Ayahausca. And the toad is not harmed emoticon
Carroza Zanzibar, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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Michael:
And I'm also wondering if others use the sacred Aya medicine specifically for fundamental insight practice, rather than focusing on content of psychological issues. 


Other than the insights that occur initially with the first deep psychedelic experiences, I've generally only found them useful for psychological work, until I stumbled upon the 5-MeO.  It didn't seem to have much to do with psychology, except in so far as you consider having a sense of self as psychological.  If so, it goes to the root of it all.  

Also interested to hear other's accounts though, and whether they have set and setting techniques that help engineer the experience towards insight work.
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Tim, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

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Carroza Zanzibar

...The next thing I remember was experiencing some kind of undifferentiated null state (surely 8th jhana (neither perception nor non-perception?) that was even more primordial than the 7th jhana void.  There was no ability to be contemplating this state while in it, but some ability to recognize what it had been like after emerging...Eventually (no sense of time whatsoever at this point), some experience came into this null state...From there, layers of mind started coming back online one-by-one (directly seeing dependent origination as an impersonal process - fruition)

Hey Carroza - I'm definitely not nearly as advanced along the path as yourself, however I've been reading Bhante Vimalaramsi's book "Meditation is life, life is meditation" - He advocates samatha/vipassana yoked together in what he calls TWIM (Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation), which he is also adament is directly following the Buddha's original instructions in the suttas (he walks the reader step by step through the suttas to compare methods, and it lines up remarkably well.)

Anyway, he is big on maps too and is adament that mindfulness of the brahma viharas can take one all the way through the jhanas (not just to the 4th) and all the way to nibbana.

The reason why I'm saying this is because it definitely seems like (at least from his description), that you just entered the stream and got fruition as a result of this experience.

Maybe I'm being completely naive and you know all of this already, but fuck it, just in case.

He's over at www.dhammasukha.org

Really really interesting.

Let me know your thoughts - it definitely seems like this was 1st path..
Carroza Zanzibar, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 12 Join Date: 5/22/15 Recent Posts
Hey Tim,

I missed your post somehow.  I had the experience of "directly seeing dependent origination as an impersonal process" years ago on a retreat.  I experienced reality that way for about a week after the retreat ended, but I slowly ebbed back to "normal" (identification with things, being caught up, believing that there is a self to look out for, etc).  

Since stream entry is supposed to be an irreversible thing, I don't really think I had that fruition.  Although some things do seem to have stuck - e.g. I don't see how I could hate anyone ever again, although ill-will/anger is definitely not overcome.  It's just crystal clear to me that people are only acting out of their (sometimes misguided) attempts at well-being.  Clear recognition of that, and of the harm to self and other that harboring hatred causes makes it impossible (I think!) for me to hate.  It would be like simultaneously stabbing myself and the other with a knife.

It also seems impossible to take career aspirations as seriously as I used to.  I also can't ever again see right and wrong as anything but arbitrary person-specific notions (of which I have my own), but I think that might have been the case before that experience anyway.  Existential fear of death is gone, but somehow social anxiety is not.  I guess that's not that unsual, actually ;)

Carroza Zanzibar, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 12 Join Date: 5/22/15 Recent Posts
After a bit of a hiatus due to difficulty in finding real pure 5-MeO, experimentation will now continue. A word to the wise:
Beware of impurities!  I've had one extremely dysphoric experience in the interim on what I thought was 5-MeO, but upon later testing it, contained 0%!  Fortunately, I weathered it well and it didn't leave much of a mark.  


I will be experimenting with low dose.  I.e. ~ 1/4 of the min needed for "breakthrough" (i.e. what happened in my first post). This amount varies by individual, but 10-20mg is what's typically needed for breakthrough when smoked.  I will do this right before my usual hour or longer meditations in the morning or evening.  I will probably follow those with a ~30 min walk where I do explicit insight practice, as that has been a good formula for me in the past.  

I am still putting out a call for others to join me in experimenting with this substance.  By crowdsourcing this work, a la patientslikeme and curetogether, we would be able to quickly figure out what, if any, use of 5-MeO is generally effective for path progress.  To help you get started, a few details below.
Carroza Zanzibar, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 12 Join Date: 5/22/15 Recent Posts
For those who live on the US West coast, particularly in the Pacific Northwest, there is likely a spiritual 5-MeO scene near you.  You can look for the Temple of Awakening Divinity, and the Temple of Authentic Divinity, as a few examples.  There are also world-travelling facilitators like "Dr. Gerry" Gerardo Sandoval Isaac.  In Los Angeles, you could try to find the TeaFaerie (of Erowid fame). Checkout also the talks from the recent Exploring Psychedelics conference in Ashland Oregon that are gradually being posted on Martin Ball's podcast, the Entheogenic Evolution.  Several focus on 5-MeO as a tool and catalyst on the spiritual path.

5-MeO-DMT is legal in many jurisdictions, including Canada, Mexico, and the Netherlands.That doesn't mean that it's easy to obtain, unfortunately.  The vendor Thomascheer on Agora seems to have a quality product.  The 5-MeO from the vendor PharmaPhil on Agora should be avoided at all costs.  There is a research chemical company in China called "chainPharm" [form the most obvious URL out of that].  You can find their 5-MeO by searching its CAS which is 
1019-45-0.  I have no idea if their product is quality or not, so beware.  There are a lot of Indian listings on m dot Indiamart dot com.  I have no knowledge of their quality.

The Marquis reagent test provides some ability to test for the presence of tryptamines.  5-MeO-DMT should be brown.  You can get the test from e.g. Bunk Police.  Note that this test has little ability to detect impurities.  So just to be clear, if it doesn't pass the reagent test, then definitely dont take it, but if it does, you still can't be sure.  Always cautiously test an unknown batch with a very small dose, e.g. ~1mg.  Speaking of which, get the Gem20 scale from Amazon.  It's the best scale at reasonable price (~$20).  The ultimate gold std purity test is gas chromatography/mass spec.  So if you have a good chemist friend with the ability to do that, you might want to make use of that. 

It is the freebase form of 5-MeO-DMT that is suited to smoking/vaping.  Salt forms (most commonly HCl) just pyrolize and dont offer much of a yield from smoking.  They are better suited to insufflating (still can be uncomfortable), and can even be used sublingually (dissolve in a bit of vinegar or alcohol and hold under the tongue).  Don't expect to get anything beyond a pretty mild experience through sublingual usage, however.  Injesting 5-MeO is generally ineffective due to its deactivation by your body's MAO-A enzyme.  This is true for DMT as well.  I wouldn't recommend combining 5-MeO with an MAO inhibitor (MAO-I), as that has been implicated in several deaths and bad trips.  

Smoking 5-MeO is easier than smoking DMT, but not totally trivial, as it will liquify first, and it can be hard to tell when all that liquid has turned to vapor.  A good cheap solution is the Essential Vaaapp Nebula.  A higher-end solution is the Muad'dib from Magic-flight, which on paper has too high of a temperature, but works very well in practice, or their lower temp "Launch Box."  The glass straw is a good addition there.

You can PM me with questions, but if they are appropriate for general convo, post them here so that everyone can benefit.  

In case its not clear, I'm quite serious about getting 5-MeO out into open experimentation within spiritual communities.  It's been used in the underground for a few decades, but is largely unknown.  It seems to me to have far more potential for facilitating realization of abiding nonduality than psilocybin, mescaline, LSD, DMT, or any other substance I'm aware of.  

If you know any other seeker forums that should be drawn into this crowd-sourced experiment, please point them to it, or point me to them.  

Please post your experiences and strategic usage, as your experiments progress.
 
LET'S FIGURE THIS OUT TOGETHER!
Oochdd, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 102 Join Date: 12/16/14 Recent Posts
If you want one more data point: one of my friends from the experience that I described earlier (the one that experienced the most hellish fear experience imaginable and then passed out), actually seems to have had an awakening experience. The panic attacks that occured in the months after the experience, that forced her to stop working, actually were reactions to seeing emptiness and having a mind clear of thoughts. This is very scary if you don't know what it is. She actually thought she was simply going crazy. 

This girl had zero spiritual experience or inclination, but a few weeks ago happened upon Eckart Tolle and texted me "I think I'm enlightened". I've met up with her twice since and she most almost definitely is. Ninety percent free from thoughts, experiencing a constant state of flow, sense of self gone, the ego only intermittently and very recognizably showing up, etc. Actually, talking to her she seems to have a much stronger in-your-face awakening experience than the description of most 4th pathers here. And obviously this is still freaking her out, and still causing panic attacks. Although at the same time she also would not want to go back to her old state. Massive amounts of old trauma and old habits of resistance are being seen through. Becoming a much nicer and helpful person, etc. It still definitely isn't properly integrated yet however, and still causing panic and overwhelm regularly. 

I believed (mostly from MCTB ) that psychedelics could only really get you past the A&P, but she seems to have gotten the real deal. I'm trying to get her in touch with my teacher so that she has someone to talk about this stuff, and she intends to but so far hasn't contacted him. 

Anyway, again, referring to my earlier post I'm extremely hesitant to recommend trying this to anyone that isn't super prepared and experienced, given the hellish experience that we had, but this is an interesting datapoint. 
Carroza Zanzibar, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 12 Join Date: 5/22/15 Recent Posts
Thanks for that data point, Oochd.  That's really motivational actually, despite the extreme difficulties that your friend has experienced along her path.  

There's no way to overemphasize that being in thrust into the depths of no-self that 5-MeO causes is a majorly intense, potentially traumatic experience.  As I mentioned, I had waves of terror in my experience.  The only technique to use is to surrender, but there's no guarantee that you will be able to pull that off sufficiently thoroughly, because the reactions can be rather strong and primal. I would highly advise meditating into deep calm and no-self prior to dosing, and make sure you are in an environment that you feel safe and comfortable in.  A sitter would be advisable, but your sitter also needs to be prepared for you to seem to enter a coma or have a vigorous physical episode.  This can be traumatizing for an unprepared sitter.

I don't think 5-MeO even qualifies as a psychedelic.  It's neither "mind-manifesting" (the etymological meaning), and only very mildly hallunicogenic (the more colloquial meaning), with perhaps some white light and/or tinnitus.  It's self-annihilating / grand-unifying.  Having had experiences of extreme altered states through psychedelics is probably better than not with respect to handling the experience well, but a breakthrough is really on a different order of experience than one can have with classical psychedelics at any dose.  The most useful prep that I had from my experience was having meditated into the formless jhanas and having seen through the self to some degree and become disillusioned with it.

Having an unstable personality, psychosis, schizophrenia, or past trauma may be serious risk factors for difficult experiences.  But as your friend's case illustrates, difficult experiences are often not without their benefits.  People should know the stakes that they are gambling with in this undertaking.
Brandon, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Post: 1 Join Date: 2/24/16 Recent Posts
Corroza, I have enjoyed reading your posts about your experience, desire, and apprecation for 5 MeO-DMT. Please message me back, I would love to talk with you further. I am new to the site, but I have participated in the beautiful ceremony you speak of. Thanks, Brandon.
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Dor Konforty, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/28/15 Recent Posts
Very inspiring exploration, my friend. 

I'll attempt to replicate this with DMT in the coming days. While it doesn't have the same qualities you describe, I think the powerful and quick effects may prove useful. I'm contemplating between doing it from the launchpad of a peak LSD experience while meditating or simply from a jhana state. 

Will report back.
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Elokane, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/28/15 Recent Posts
DMT doesn't seem to be the right substance. It was perhaps greatly aided by the act of smoking it (changa), but my concentration broke off very quickly. 

There was a sensation of quick expansion of mind into every space possible, stopped by the shape and form of consciousness at the moment. There was a slight pull on these, but they asserted themselves quickly. As the effects were already peaking (about 30-60 seconds in), there wasn't a force that would dissolve these and so nothing much happend beyond having a short trip in a meditative pose on the background of a jhana session. It is possible that a stronger dose would lead to more productive effects, howeever. 

Next up: 5-MeO-DMT.
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Elokane, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/28/15 Recent Posts
I tried the real deal today, 4mg. I had a total of 24, so my plan was to portion it 4-5-15. 

I attained first jhana, stayed in it for a few minutes, jumped into the second for a very brief time, and proceeded to insufflate 4mg of beige 5-MeO-DMT. I don't have much experience insufflating, but it's worth noting that I felt it necessary to crush the substance from its small crystal into a more fine powder. Searching the net for a bit before doing that made it seem like the right idea.

There was a mild and easily tolerable burning sensation -- the type I wouldn't care much about even outside the comfort of jhanic seclusion. It did, however, numb my nose and parts of my upper mouth a little bit. Also, it agitated the membranes a little, and I had to battle with a bit of mucus. I don't know how I'd solve this.

Generally, the experience was marked with my scientific mind trying to analyze every effect bit after bit. Certainly this affected the depth I could get to. I'm assuming larger doses bring about more of a silencing of this motif, as well as the experimenting with lower doses and getting a bit of the understanding of the experience that the mind yearns for.

The onset was very gradual and felt perfect in this sense. Moment after moment, the effect of the substance presented itself, gently reminding me to let go of the excitement involved and focus on the practice. A few minutes in, there was a noticable increase in piti and a general energetic motif pervaded. At the time, I could still not conclude that the substance was "helping", i.e. that I'm more absorbed/relaxed/present than if I were to simply continue meditating. 

Shortly after, the piti subsided, and I found myself in a space that felt like the 3rd or 4th jhana -- in which I essentially spent the rest of the experience in, skipping between these depths relatively dynamically. There was good absorption, and it felt like it was less dependant on ekaggata than the standard practice. However, whenever I did make the effort to concentrate the mind/keep it on point, the "reward" was very clear. Still, it wasn't easy to do this, as the novelty of the experience, the curiosity of the mind, the excitedness of it all (the small amounts still penetrating the jhanasphere) made for a shakier experience than that of a standard 3rd/4th jhana. 

Other effects:

I had an easier time "resting" into the state, similar in nature to what you may get on psychedelics when you choose to "surrender" into a situation and accept whatever experience as the reference point to "melt" into. 

I had a moderately powerful experience that elucidated the relationship of vipassana to samadhi. That involved a clear motion of release of the stress around the focus point and entire jhana practice alongside it. If generally, for me, the movement between jhana states involved intention and a release of a factor - something that happens gradually and without an immediate grasp of the moment of release (but rather the jump deeper), this showed itself as a sensation of deep and clear release of the task/breath that invited me to keep repeating it. I am curious to see if this surfaces again in my next session.

I felt like my self was peeled away slightly and that less space was occupied by the standard machinery of it. This was very subtle and so I can't expand much about it.

There was no fear or terror of any kind, which makes me happy to have done it before diving deeper into a higher dose.

Generally, and as weird as this may sound, the effect was very much what I had expected (and hoped) it to be. I am eager to dive in again and will search to find the "perfect" opportunity to use the one bullet I have.

Thanks again, Carroza!
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Elokane, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/28/15 Recent Posts
A little while later, I had a scheduled call with my business partner, and we flew high, solving a problem that had occupied my mind for many months. My mindspace was very clear and able to contain and integrate all of the pieces - many from differenet and varied fields of knowledge and expertise - relevant to this problem to create a coherent proposal for a solution, which we continued to explore deeply. Fun was had by all!
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Sarasti, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/28/15 Recent Posts
Second 5-Meo-DMT experience today, this time with 15mg.

I meditated for an hour and a half before that. The session was characterized by added energy and resoluteness in anticipation of the experience. I was very awake and quite liberated (relative to my standards) before beginning.

Snorted all 15mg through one nostril and went to lie in bed, with the neck and head raised a little on a couple of pillowed leaning against the wall.
Took a couple of minutes for effects to begin becoming profound, and then they seemed to hit all at once. This is unlike the 4mg experience, which had more of a gradual push against consciousness. The immediate effect was of a deep calming\release and a general sensation of okness. This was notable on the backdrop of an assumption/expectation of terror that I still partially harbored about this, and that disappeared immediately then and there. 

As the effect pervaded consciousness, the blackness of my visual field began warping. The feeling of space as a "distortion" of consciousness, as a warping of the conscious "field" into the notion of space, was beginning to "correct" itself. To smooth itself and "relax" the effort of this warping. The visual field became "straight" and flat/wide while also expanding. Very quickly, the perception of this "space" disappeared completely, and I was left with a blackness that was infinite/boundless. More accurately, I would simply say that space had now become "undefined"; i.e. it was no longer a property of anything in awareness. 

So, this is the sensation brought about by the 5th jhana, I thought.
Many more thoughts followed, among them the (very quick) realization that I had not taken "enough". As I spent a few more minutes exploring the phenomena of a lack of space, attempting to let it pervade my being/for my mind to be unified around the experience, many thoughts arose and fed off of the general excitedness of the situation. I was prevented from attempting to delve deeper into the (equivalent of the) 6th jhana by these, though the effects of spacelessness did persist and were appreciated for a long while.

Generally, there was a feeling of great ease with letting go of things. I tried to do some more formal practice, looking for tensions, assumptions, and efforts and letting these go - eventually including the effort of searching for those. Interesting experience and the fruits of release were apparent, but I cannot say that I have made any specific progress on the path of insight or ultimate release. 

The entire experience was characterized by great calm and a being at ease, even at the peak of changing circumstances/height of the initial effect, and certainly later. Overall, even without making any discoveries, this is a great way to "reset" the system, to let go, and to spend some time in a state that corresponds to meditation in many ways. I think it'd still be the case for someone experiencing this without having meditated first if they committed to simply "being with it". 

Conclusions:
* I need to get more
* I'll try 20mg next time
* I would love to continue doing ~5mg from time to time with standard (sitting) meditation before going about my day
* I believe the experience still has much to teach me, both where I've already visited and going deeper
* I can't wait to introduce this to many of my friends and students

Until next time.
Robert, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 100 Join Date: 5/8/15 Recent Posts
Sorry, this doesn't have to do with 5-Meo-DMT but I'll drop this here anyway. Mushrooms have helped me notice that awareness is always present and without an "off switch". This simple noticing of the fact was after the first trip. Mushrooms also have triggered a deep "Dark Night of the Soul" state which was no fun but I suppose it was a burning away of the energy contraction of the separate self to a degree. Cannabis has revealed the lucid no-self state as well as the oneness of "this right now" (all these seemingly different "states" being one and the same). But I don't think those things (psychedelics, entheogens) should be depended on for that long, not that there is anyone choosing to remain dependent or not but anyway. For some they can unlock some essential realisations/revelations, and temporarily remove the superimposed self, or dislodge it. But they've served their purpose after a point. The super-ego as a doer and a practitioner would like to hold on to these things as a further aid though but to me that just seems like the mind remaining blind and tricking itself on another, more subtle level. This stuff gets subtle and at some point all aids and practices, progression etc. will drop for good. Like most of you know the whole deal is about an irreversible death of the experiencer that assumes itself as the experiencer.

All that was written doesn't exist except as a thought. But what is a thought and where is it? Where's the mind now?
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Klay Men, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 11 Join Date: 2/15/14 Recent Posts
Been greatly enjoying reading the reports and comments.

What do people think about vaping DMT (n,n-dmt ~30-60mg) immediately after a Vipassana retreat? I am tempted to do this because it's when I'm at my highest equanimity, but I don't know if it would be dangerous to "cross the streams" seeing as after retreat you're already coarsing with powerful acid-like dharma energy, and DMT itself is incredibly power. It's hard enough coming back to earth after retreat, let alone with DMT in the mix. I still have great equanimity in the days / weeks following retreat, perhaps waiting a little bit before doing it would make sense.

What do people think?
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Sarasti, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: 5-MeO-DMT

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/28/15 Recent Posts
Read my report above. I'd say no.