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Grossly overcomplicating things

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Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/26/15 12:10 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Chris Marti 6/26/15 12:17 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Jenny 6/26/15 1:36 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things . Jake . 6/26/15 1:48 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Dada Kind 6/26/15 1:53 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/26/15 1:57 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Jenny 6/26/15 2:02 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Distant Admirer 6/26/15 2:12 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Distant Admirer 6/26/15 2:13 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/26/15 2:58 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Distant Admirer 7/14/15 11:39 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Distant Admirer 7/14/15 11:42 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/26/15 4:19 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things b man 6/26/15 3:18 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/26/15 4:19 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things b man 6/26/15 4:26 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/26/15 5:31 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Laurel Carrington 6/26/15 3:22 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things b man 6/26/15 3:17 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Doug M 6/27/15 10:37 AM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/27/15 12:35 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Chris Marti 6/27/15 12:42 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/27/15 1:26 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/27/15 1:30 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Chris Marti 6/27/15 3:59 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/28/15 10:01 AM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Chris Marti 6/28/15 11:01 AM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/28/15 11:53 AM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/28/15 1:55 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Doug M 6/27/15 3:43 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things b man 6/26/15 3:22 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 6/28/15 9:47 AM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things b man 6/28/15 5:16 PM
RE: Grossly overcomplicating things Psi 6/28/15 11:16 PM
Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 12:10 PM
First off, the short version of my experience...

Was a die hard atheistic science nerd until I was 37, then had a spontaneous "awakening" where I realized I was everything. Immediatly following that was one of the most brutal "Dark Nights" ever. My wife who had the awakening simultaneously with me decided to kill herself, I was arrested for murder, beaten and locked up in isolation. Even though I was found completely innocent my life was effectively destroyed, reputation devastated, business gone, friends turned away etc etc. Went on a 2 year "spiritual journey" thing to find out what the fuck happened and had a lot of new "awakenings" and mystical experiences as I tried to absorb, discern and assimilate everything I could from the different spiritual and scientific traditions. These are my conclusions:

First off, the spiritual community is basically contaminated with an immense amount of bullshit, wishful thinking, fantasies and downright lies. Most "spiritual" people don't want liberation or enlightenment, they just want to polish their egos and feel better about themselves. A lot of teachers have just had some awakening experiences and aren't enlightened, and often don't know what the fuck they're talking about, themselves clinging to ideas, belief systems and their own precious false self.

The spiritual traditions are grossly over complicating things, either intentionally to build hiearachies or unintentionally because 99% of them simply aren't enlightened. There are some truly liberated beings, like Adyashanti, and they are completely awesome, but most people posing as teachers haven't actually taken the plunge. From a realist perspective, most teachers and traditions are absolutely awful when you judge them from a "enlightenment rate" perspective. I used to be a politician and a businessman and I can tell you that all these traditions would have been shut down if they were my business or responsibility. The core "commodity" that they're supposed to sell is liberation, and how much of that are they actually delivering? Almost nothing. We can argue over who is worst or best, but even the best of them are complete shit at what they are supposed to be doing. If they were held up to any accountability they would all be shut down.

My perspective is that this is mainly due to covering up the real stuff, that which will get you enlightened, with a bunch of complicated fluff, rituals and beliefs. I'm not going to get into whether the beliefs are true or not, because that is not important. Believing something won't get you enlightened, in fact, believing anything is pretty much what keeps you from it.

In a way I feel like a complete idiot because it took me two years to get this, even after I had the awakening experience, and frankly, speed is ALL that matters. You're stuck in an illusion, a dream, often a nightmare and you need to get out. How you get out doesn't matter, only how fast you get out. If you're breaking out of prison you don't care what the way out looks like, as long as it is fast and actually gets you out. Moving into a nicer looking part of the prison is not an acceptable substitute, not if you want actual freedom.

In the end there is one core lie that is at the root of everything and that is causing this whole mess. Not just all of the suffering, but the whole spirtual seeking as well, which is just a more advanced form of suffering. And that is the stupid idea of there being a "me". That's why I am saying that this whole spiritual thing is grossly overcomplicated. Even the Three Characteristics are somewhat overcomplicated, and there's only three of them! The core Characteristic is that there simply is NO self. The Impermanence and Suffering part is also true (and self evident) but seeing that is not as important. If you understand impermanence and suffering, but still believe there is a self, you're still fucked. If you truly recognise that there is no self, you're out, and the rest will fall into place by itself once the core lie is resolved.

Two other traps that I see a lot of spiritual people fall into is trying to figure out who is and who isn't enlightened, especially by judging their behaviors and trying to find flaws. It doesn't matter. You're in prison, get out. Don't try to figure out whether someone is on the outside or inside, just get the fuck out yourself. If you think I'm not enlightened because I'm an angry ranting asshole, that's fine, just get the fuck out of prison.

The other trap is trying to figure out how different spiritual aspects work or the nature of existence. Are angels real? How does re-incarnation work? What is God? That's a distraction. Get out of prison and THEN you can figure that shit out. In fact trying to figure that shit out is detrimental to your liberation and just another mind game. The ego absolutely loves that shit, and whatever the ego loves is surely not good for you.

In the end, having gone through Zen buddhism, Advaita, Shamanism, NLP, Hallucinogens, Spiritual dancing and God knows what I have to tip my hat at the Direct Pointing crew. That's got to be the fastest route so far and there's absolutely zero reason why it should take 20 years on the Zen pillow to break free. If people took this at all seriously that would be completely unacceptable. If you were locked up in an actual physical prison and was given the option to either spend 20 years or 20 more minutes in there, you would have to be a completely retarded masochist to go with the long option. Having said that there are definetely values and insights in all the traditions that are worth keeping around, but if we are even the least bit serious about actually wanting to liberate ourselves and others, we should drop all the loyalties and simply look for one thing: "Which is the fastest way out of here?".

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 12:17 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
emoticon

Nice rant.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 1:36 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Yep. Nice post to cleanse the X.

And I have to agree about the Direct Pointing--going on a mahamudra retreat next month for that reason.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 1:48 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:


 Believing something won't get you enlightened, in fact, believing anything is pretty much what keeps you from it.




         nice

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 1:53 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Jed McKenna, i-is that you?

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 1:57 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
Droll Dedekind:
Jed McKenna, i-is that you?


That name has showed up a few times, I'm going to have to google it soon and find out who it is. If he's anything like me he must be awesome (and horrible). 

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 2:13 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
You are literally the Dharma Overground's Jed McKenna.

Unfortunately Jed doesn't let people reproduce parts of his book, so I'm going to have to quote him:

(bold emphasis is mine)

Or, maybe you have some object that allows you to break the window
out. Or maybe the sheer intensity of your—What are we calling it,
dissatisfaction?—allows you to break through the unbreakable window. So,
boom!, you blow out the window. Now there’s nothing left in the equation
but you, the raging fire, and a hundred story plummet to the sidewalk
below. Everything is suddenly quite simple. Perhaps for the first time,
your life is perfectly clear.”
“Yeah? Then?”
“Burn or jump, I guess.”
“Burn or jump?”
“Do you see another option?”
“Burn or jump,” he says flatly.


Let me state it plainly, Arthur: I don’t do heart. To the extent that I
advocate any path, it is a path without heart, devoid of compassion, totally
free of any thought for others whatsoever. The thinking is simple: Wake up
first. Wake up, and then you can double back and perhaps be of some use
to others if you still have the urge.
Wake up first, with pure and unapologetic selfishness,
or you’re just another ship-wreck victim floundering in the ocean and all the compassion in the world is of
absolutely no use to the other victims floundering around you. Resolve
your own situation first, and then maybe your compassion will translate
into something of value to others. I suppose that sounds cruel or
unspiritual or whatever, but it only works the way it works. Make sense?


I pause. I pace. I ponder.
“If I talk about food poisoning or stomach flu, does everyone know
What I mean? From personal experience?”
This is met with a chorus of groans which I interpret as a yes.
“What?” I ask in mock dismay, “no one likes violent stomach flu?
Cramps, nausea, vomiting? No? Diarrhea, fever, chills? Nobody? Jeez,
tough crowd. Curled up on the bathroom floor all night? Your body
wracked and heaving? No one? Wait a second, I haven’t told you the good
part. How about a violent stomach flu that lasts for a year and a half,
maybe two years? Any takers?"


Nope.

"Come on, seriously, What would it take?" I prod them. “What would
make two years of Violent stomach flu worthwhile for you? What would
make that worth enduring? What would make you want it?" I pass my gaze
over the entire group. “A million bucks? An extra twenty years of life? The
return of a loved one who died?” They sit in motionless silence. “Or wait,
I’ve got it. How about nothing? Anyone? Two years of gut-wrenching
purging for absolutely nothing? The line forms to the left. Who’s first?"


What took me nearly two years to accomplish Julie might do in much
less time. I came into the process a spiritual and philosophical illiterate.
I
had an advantage in that I had long since determined that reality had no
basis in reality, but I didn’t have the benefit, as Julie does, of having
representatives of the world’s great systems of thought already inhabiting
my mind, neatly lined up, smallest to largest, for me to practice my
swordsmanship on.


I went to philosophy. What had been entire libraries of man’s
collected wisdom including all that ancient Greek stuff and all those
Europeans from the last few centuries with their humongous brains and
their gigantic thoughts. Where was all that now? Gone as if it never was.
Washed away like sandcastles on the beach. All that was left where I
expected to find Great Minds and Great Thoughts was a blueprint for a
bomb like the one that had done this to my world: Cogito Ergo Sum.

So I wondered where was René Descartes? I should be able to find
more of him than those three words. But no. I discovered that even the guy
who created such a bomb didn’t know what it really was or what it could
really do; he built the bomb but he never set it off in his own life.

I went to religion. Any religion, denomination, cult or sect would do;
anything that was still standing in this flattened world would be a welcome
and amazing sight, but nothing was. All the books and statues and fancy
clothes and beautiful buildings were vaporized. Nowhere was one stone
left on top of another. I was stunned, but not surprised.

I went to the occult and the New Age, to spirituality and Eastern
thought. By this time my eyes had become well-adjusted to the bright light
of this new world and I could fully absorb in a moment what it might once
have taken years to see. There were others like me, I saw, but few. They
were easier to make out now that all the pretenders had been vaporized.
Still, I wasn’t there to learn or to acquire or to master anything. I had no
desire to become a student. This wasn’t a scholarly or theological pursuit. I
had no need for a vehicle. I wasn’t curious about teachings and
philosophies and beliefs beyond the initial assessment of whether or not
they survived the blast. I was just looking to see if there was anything still
standing, and there wasn’t much. Not nothing, but not much.

As long as I was in the neighborhood I looked in on Buddhism, but all
that remained was the diamond of Zen under an ash mountain of faux-
Zen. I was interested to finally see it in clarity, but real Zen is just another
name for the bomb, and there was nothing left to blow up.


What is it they’re doing, Martin? The recipe for enlightenment
they’re promoting; What is it?”

“Uh, well, meditation and knowledge, basically...”

“And in thirty years they’ve never held someone up and said ‘Look at
this guy! He’s enlightened and we got him there!’ In thirty years, they
don’t have one? Don’t you think they should have, like, an entire army of
enlightened guys to show off by now?


“Well it’s not...”

“After thirty years they should have a few dozen generations of
enlightened people. Even with only a quarter of them becoming teachers,
they should have flooded the world by now, mathematically speaking,
don’t you think? I’m not asking all this as a teacher myself, mind you. I’m
just asking as a consumer, or a consumer’s advocate. Don’t you think it’s
reasonable to ask to know a teacher’s success rate?
The proof is in the
pudding, right? Didn’t you ask them about the fruit of their teachings
when you started with them?”

“Well that’s not...”

“Don’t you think it’s reasonable to ask? They’re in the enlightenment
business, aren’t they? Or did I misunderstand you? Do they have
something else going?”

“Nooo, but they...”

If Consumer Reports magazine did a report on which spiritual
organizations delivered as promised, don’t you suppose that the first
statistic listed under each organization would be success ratio?
Like, here
are a hundred randomly selected people who started with the organization
five years ago and here’s where they are today. For instance, thirty—one
have moved up in the organization, twenty-seven have moved on, thirty-
nine are still with it but not deeply committed and three have entered
abiding non-dual awareness. Okay, three percent, that’s a number you can
compare. But this organization of yours would have a big fat goose egg,
wouldn’t they? And not just out of a hundred, but out of hundreds of
thousands. Millions, probably. Am I wrong?


I got a lot of the formatting wrong, and this is probably violating his copyright thing, which sucks. These quotes are all from his Enlightenment Trilogy, and some from his Notebook I believe, but the contents of the Notebook are just from the Enlightenment Trilogy.

The 2 years thing is uncanny, and this rant you posted seems to speak from a similar place he does, might have to do with the brutal nature of the journey that you describe.

Maybe he'll pop up here and tell me not to quote all his stuff, he showed up on Open Enlightenment once, I think he has a Facebook.

(y)

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 2:02 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
He must be awesome (and horrible).


*laughed out loud*

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 2:12 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
Ugh you guys beat me to it, you two (Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg and Jed McKenna) should meet up and talk, the conversation and ensuing camaraderie might be fun to watch, but on the other hand perhaps what makes them themselves, is that they are individuals, and woke up that way.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 2:58 PM as a reply to Distant Admirer.
Distant Admirer:
You are literally the Dharma Overground's Jed McKenna.

Unfortunately Jed doesn't let people reproduce parts of his book, so I'm going to have to quote him:

(bold emphasis is mine)

--- removed quotes due to largeness ---

I got a lot of the formatting wrong, and this is probably violating his copyright thing, which sucks. These quotes are all from his Enlightenment Trilogy, and some from his Notebook I believe, but the contents of the Notebook are just from the Enlightenment Trilogy.

The 2 years thing is uncanny, and this rant you posted seems to speak from a similar place he does, might have to do with the brutal nature of the journey that you describe.

Maybe he'll pop up here and tell me not to quote all his stuff, he showed up on Open Enlightenment once, I think he has a Facebook.

(y)

Well from those quotes I have to admit I like the guy and I will probably have to check him out now and become some stupid kind of fan boy.

Seriously though, he's fucking spot on (of course I am only saying this because he already agrees with me). This whole fucking spirituality business is SHIT. It's like a McDonalds run by retards and producing like 1 big mac every other decade. Really, this is a valid path? SHOW ME THE ENLIGHTENEMENT!! People should be demanding their money back, but because most of them aren't actually going for enlightenemnt they won't. They got what they wanted in a way I guess, to be coddled a while and feel special, and be able to tell their friends about this amazing retreat they went to.

I actually learned a shitload from a lot of the teachers and retreats I went to, but I was lucky (thank you synchronicity) and more than that I was ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR TRUTH. Most of the people I met there weren't.

List of awesome teachers that I've met: Isaac Shapiro, Meike, Pamela Wilson, Michael Doshin Nelson and.... um, no, actually, that's it. I've also been with Tyohar and Marc Gafni but they were kind of meh. Tyohar is enjoying playing the Guru and even though he has a whole village of sycophants almost none of them are awake, Gafni is too busy trying to be thought of as the nicest guy ever and promote himself.



But really, what the fuck are we doing here if we are NOT trying to refine and spread enlightenment. Are we just posing, delving into our neurosis and doing a huge circle jerk? I mean really, we're talking about the bomb here. The thing that will liberate the world and set human beings free, where's the fire? When did enlightenment turn into something you do with other middle-class jerk offs at a retreat and then chat about with your friends? If you're awake, you're holding the keys to other human beings liberation. Are you going to just let them rot in their own filth, or are you going to put your fucking heart out there and actually do something?

This is fucking unheard of in the history of humankind. We have an online community here with several enlightened beings (and I will unabashedly claim to be one of them), when in history was there ever a better opportunity to set the world ablaze? We are the fucking anti-virus to the human condition, we can either act on that and spread this shit (and make it better) and save actual real flesh and blood human bodies. What could be more inspiring (and fun) to do?

And the first thing on the list has to be to get rid of this insanely stupid idea that enlightened people need to be a certain way, that it's something hard to do (it just takes honesty and a dose of courage). Jesus didn't sit around in a cave and enjoy the bliss, he went out and kicked ass, and he called things as he saw it. And the non-enlightened teachers need to get their pants pulled down and preferably a bit of anal raping done as well (for the benefit of all sentient beings obviously). First (and most importantly) you wake yourself up, then you wake everyone you can get your hands on up whatever it takes.  

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 3:17 PM as a reply to Distant Admirer.
Distant Admirer:
You are literally the Dharma Overground's Jed McKenna.

Unfortunately Jed doesn't let people reproduce parts of his book, so I'm going to have to quote him:

(bold emphasis is mine)

Or, maybe you have some object that allows you to break the window
out. Or maybe the sheer intensity of your—What are we calling it,
dissatisfaction?—allows you to break through the unbreakable window. So,
boom!, you blow out the window. Now there’s nothing left in the equation
but you, the raging fire, and a hundred story plummet to the sidewalk
below. Everything is suddenly quite simple. Perhaps for the first time,
your life is perfectly clear.”
“Yeah? Then?”
“Burn or jump, I guess.”
“Burn or jump?”
“Do you see another option?”
“Burn or jump,” he says flatly.


Let me state it plainly, Arthur: I don’t do heart. To the extent that I
advocate any path, it is a path without heart, devoid of compassion, totally
free of any thought for others whatsoever. The thinking is simple: Wake up
first. Wake up, and then you can double back and perhaps be of some use
to others if you still have the urge.
Wake up first, with pure and unapologetic selfishness,
or you’re just another ship-wreck victim floundering in the ocean and all the compassion in the world is of
absolutely no use to the other victims floundering around you. Resolve
your own situation first, and then maybe your compassion will translate
into something of value to others. I suppose that sounds cruel or
unspiritual or whatever, but it only works the way it works. Make sense?


I pause. I pace. I ponder.
“If I talk about food poisoning or stomach flu, does everyone know
What I mean? From personal experience?”
This is met with a chorus of groans which I interpret as a yes.
“What?” I ask in mock dismay, “no one likes violent stomach flu?
Cramps, nausea, vomiting? No? Diarrhea, fever, chills? Nobody? Jeez,
tough crowd. Curled up on the bathroom floor all night? Your body
wracked and heaving? No one? Wait a second, I haven’t told you the good
part. How about a violent stomach flu that lasts for a year and a half,
maybe two years? Any takers?"


Nope.

"Come on, seriously, What would it take?" I prod them. “What would
make two years of Violent stomach flu worthwhile for you? What would
make that worth enduring? What would make you want it?" I pass my gaze
over the entire group. “A million bucks? An extra twenty years of life? The
return of a loved one who died?” They sit in motionless silence. “Or wait,
I’ve got it. How about nothing? Anyone? Two years of gut-wrenching
purging for absolutely nothing? The line forms to the left. Who’s first?"


What took me nearly two years to accomplish Julie might do in much
less time. I came into the process a spiritual and philosophical illiterate.
I
had an advantage in that I had long since determined that reality had no
basis in reality, but I didn’t have the benefit, as Julie does, of having
representatives of the world’s great systems of thought already inhabiting
my mind, neatly lined up, smallest to largest, for me to practice my
swordsmanship on.


I went to philosophy. What had been entire libraries of man’s
collected wisdom including all that ancient Greek stuff and all those
Europeans from the last few centuries with their humongous brains and
their gigantic thoughts. Where was all that now? Gone as if it never was.
Washed away like sandcastles on the beach. All that was left where I
expected to find Great Minds and Great Thoughts was a blueprint for a
bomb like the one that had done this to my world: Cogito Ergo Sum.

So I wondered where was René Descartes? I should be able to find
more of him than those three words. But no. I discovered that even the guy
who created such a bomb didn’t know what it really was or what it could
really do; he built the bomb but he never set it off in his own life.

I went to religion. Any religion, denomination, cult or sect would do;
anything that was still standing in this flattened world would be a welcome
and amazing sight, but nothing was. All the books and statues and fancy
clothes and beautiful buildings were vaporized. Nowhere was one stone
left on top of another. I was stunned, but not surprised.

I went to the occult and the New Age, to spirituality and Eastern
thought. By this time my eyes had become well-adjusted to the bright light
of this new world and I could fully absorb in a moment what it might once
have taken years to see. There were others like me, I saw, but few. They
were easier to make out now that all the pretenders had been vaporized.
Still, I wasn’t there to learn or to acquire or to master anything. I had no
desire to become a student. This wasn’t a scholarly or theological pursuit. I
had no need for a vehicle. I wasn’t curious about teachings and
philosophies and beliefs beyond the initial assessment of whether or not
they survived the blast. I was just looking to see if there was anything still
standing, and there wasn’t much. Not nothing, but not much.

As long as I was in the neighborhood I looked in on Buddhism, but all
that remained was the diamond of Zen under an ash mountain of faux-
Zen. I was interested to finally see it in clarity, but real Zen is just another
name for the bomb, and there was nothing left to blow up.


What is it they’re doing, Martin? The recipe for enlightenment
they’re promoting; What is it?”

“Uh, well, meditation and knowledge, basically...”

“And in thirty years they’ve never held someone up and said ‘Look at
this guy! He’s enlightened and we got him there!’ In thirty years, they
don’t have one? Don’t you think they should have, like, an entire army of
enlightened guys to show off by now?


“Well it’s not...”

“After thirty years they should have a few dozen generations of
enlightened people. Even with only a quarter of them becoming teachers,
they should have flooded the world by now, mathematically speaking,
don’t you think? I’m not asking all this as a teacher myself, mind you. I’m
just asking as a consumer, or a consumer’s advocate. Don’t you think it’s
reasonable to ask to know a teacher’s success rate?
The proof is in the
pudding, right? Didn’t you ask them about the fruit of their teachings
when you started with them?”

“Well that’s not...”

“Don’t you think it’s reasonable to ask? They’re in the enlightenment
business, aren’t they? Or did I misunderstand you? Do they have
something else going?”

“Nooo, but they...”

If Consumer Reports magazine did a report on which spiritual
organizations delivered as promised, don’t you suppose that the first
statistic listed under each organization would be success ratio?
Like, here
are a hundred randomly selected people who started with the organization
five years ago and here’s where they are today. For instance, thirty—one
have moved up in the organization, twenty-seven have moved on, thirty-
nine are still with it but not deeply committed and three have entered
abiding non-dual awareness. Okay, three percent, that’s a number you can
compare. But this organization of yours would have a big fat goose egg,
wouldn’t they? And not just out of a hundred, but out of hundreds of
thousands. Millions, probably. Am I wrong?


I got a lot of the formatting wrong, and this is probably violating his copyright thing, which sucks. These quotes are all from his Enlightenment Trilogy, and some from his Notebook I believe, but the contents of the Notebook are just from the Enlightenment Trilogy.

The 2 years thing is uncanny, and this rant you posted seems to speak from a similar place he does, might have to do with the brutal nature of the journey that you describe.

Maybe he'll pop up here and tell me not to quote all his stuff, he showed up on Open Enlightenment once, I think he has a Facebook.

(y)

I feel slightly repused reading his words! He defo needs some metta ! 

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
7/14/15 11:39 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
And the first thing on the list has to be to get rid of this insanely stupid idea that enlightened people need to be a certain way, that it's something hard to do (it just takes honesty and a dose of courage).


Yes, I would assume that's true, for example, I still need to get laid. It's just something I've never done, and it's something I need to know.

Jesus didn't sit around in a cave and enjoy the bliss, he went out and kicked ass, and he called things as he saw it.


Yes, that is correct, Christ was:

A criminal, who was executed three years after going public, because he pissed everyone off just by speaking the truth, at which point they tried to kill him, and succeeded in doing so. So that's basically his legacy.

He also says that he will return with a tongue that's a sword (AKA, the truth), and slay nations with it, thereby dissolving the status quo and returning everything to the way it was, AKA, the only way it can be.

The vision we have now is not sustainable, to dissolve the status quo means to stop trying to make an awkward situation work, or what is untenable, "go on."

Christ also said he didn't come to bring peace but a sword, and that he came to make children hate their parents, he also overturned tables (he literally flipped tables), and hit people with a whip that he made himself. He was technically a criminal who was executed because no one could bear to hear what he saying (the status quo, the truth, etc)

Basically, the truth is that, which when spoken, causes everyone to recollect the way things were, or the only way things can be, and everyone who does not cooperate with Us (which is why God in the Qu'ran refers to himself as We, and similarly in Genesis), to be utterly annihilated, instantaneously.

And the non-enlightened teachers need to get their pants pulled down and preferably a bit of anal raping done as well (for the benefit of all sentient beings obviously).


You mean like, to be slapped in the face? And to be told sit down and shut up? haha.

In Jed McKenna parlance, we would be having a bunch of people who are studying the "art and science" of jumping off cliffs, as opposed to just jumping off a cliff, I mean you can only do it once, which is probably why people procrastinate anyways:

Go jump off a cliff. Don’t go near the cliff and contemplate jumping off. Don’t read a book about jumping off. Don’t study the art and science of jumping off. Don’t join a support group for jumping off. Don’t write poems about jumping off. Don’t kiss the ass of someone else who jumped off. Just jump.


Once again, violating the Jed McKenna copyright policy.

Since 1993,

~JJ

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 3:18 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
Distant Admirer:
You are literally the Dharma Overground's Jed McKenna.

Unfortunately Jed doesn't let people reproduce parts of his book, so I'm going to have to quote him:

(bold emphasis is mine)

--- removed quotes due to largeness ---

I got a lot of the formatting wrong, and this is probably violating his copyright thing, which sucks. These quotes are all from his Enlightenment Trilogy, and some from his Notebook I believe, but the contents of the Notebook are just from the Enlightenment Trilogy.

The 2 years thing is uncanny, and this rant you posted seems to speak from a similar place he does, might have to do with the brutal nature of the journey that you describe.

Maybe he'll pop up here and tell me not to quote all his stuff, he showed up on Open Enlightenment once, I think he has a Facebook.

(y)

Well from those quotes I have to admit I like the guy and I will probably have to check him out now and become some stupid kind of fan boy.

Seriously though, he's fucking spot on (of course I am only saying this because he already agrees with me). This whole fucking spirituality business is SHIT. It's like a McDonalds run by retards and producing like 1 big mac every other decade. Really, this is a valid path? SHOW ME THE ENLIGHTENEMENT!! People should be demanding their money back, but because most of them aren't actually going for enlightenemnt they won't. They got what they wanted in a way I guess, to be coddled a while and feel special, and be able to tell their friends about this amazing retreat they went to.

I actually learned a shitload from a lot of the teachers and retreats I went to, but I was lucky (thank you synchronicity) and more than that I was ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR TRUTH. Most of the people I met there weren't.

List of awesome teachers that I've met: Isaac Shapiro, Meike, Pamela Wilson, Michael Doshin Nelson and.... um, no, actually, that's it. I've also been with Tyohar and Marc Gafni but they were kind of meh. Tyohar is enjoying playing the Guru and even though he has a whole village of sycophants almost none of them are awake, Gafni is too busy trying to be thought of as the nicest guy ever and promote himself.



But really, what the fuck are we doing here if we are NOT trying to refine and spread enlightenment. Are we just posing, delving into our neurosis and doing a huge circle jerk? I mean really, we're talking about the bomb here. The thing that will liberate the world and set human beings free, where's the fire? When did enlightenment turn into something you do with other middle-class jerk offs at a retreat and then chat about with your friends? If you're awake, you're holding the keys to other human beings liberation. Are you going to just let them rot in their own filth, or are you going to put your fucking heart out there and actually do something?

This is fucking unheard of in the history of humankind. We have an online community here with several enlightened beings (and I will unabashedly claim to be one of them), when in history was there ever a better opportunity to set the world ablaze? We are the fucking anti-virus to the human condition, we can either act on that and spread this shit (and make it better) and save actual real flesh and blood human bodies. What could be more inspiring (and fun) to do?

And the first thing on the list has to be to get rid of this insanely stupid idea that enlightened people need to be a certain way, that it's something hard to do (it just takes honesty and a dose of courage). Jesus didn't sit around in a cave and enjoy the bliss, he went out and kicked ass, and he called things as he saw it. And the non-enlightened teachers need to get their pants pulled down and preferably a bit of anal raping done as well (for the benefit of all sentient beings obviously). First (and most importantly) you wake yourself up, then you wake everyone you can get your hands on up whatever it takes.  
You need some metta too, son! 

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 3:22 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Yes, Jed McKenna (The Enlightenment Trilogy) and then there's a resemblance to Daniel's rant against the mushroom culture, not the choice of language maybe, but the all-out indignation against all those teachers who don't help people actually wake up.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 3:22 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
First off, the short version of my experience...

Was a die hard atheistic science nerd until I was 37, then had a spontaneous "awakening" where I realized I was everything. Immediatly following that was one of the most brutal "Dark Nights" ever. My wife who had the awakening simultaneously with me decided to kill herself, I was arrested for murder, beaten and locked up in isolation. Even though I was found completely innocent my life was effectively destroyed, reputation devastated, business gone, friends turned away etc etc. .....


By the way, thats some most terrible stuff you had there. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
7/14/15 11:42 PM as a reply to Distant Admirer.
You mean like, to be slapped in the face? And to be told sit down and shut up? haha.


There's a bit of irony in the fact that Jed McKenna's instructions for waking up are actually to sit down and shut up.

Here's all you need to know to become enlightened: Sit down, shut up, and ask yourself what's true until you know.


I think I violated the policy again.

Part of my desire stems from the need to make sure no one gets away with anything, because that would be literal sin. Not doing something, when you know you should do it, is literally depravity, or sin.

And so, letting someone get away with not doing anything,[1] seems like a sin.

1. Making a choice, a decision. People don't want to choose. Once someone chooses there is a statement implicit in that choice (a maxim), which means that you are making a statement that in that situation, everyone should do that. (this sounds like Kant)

This comes back to the God thing again, someone who takes responsibility for their actions is by definition a god, because they only answer to themselves. The purpose of the god in Genesis was to create other gods (in our image, and in our likeness, we, etc.) who were exactly like him, not kind of like him, but exactly like him, in other words:

His purpose was to create other eternal, self-sustaining, self-regulating, entities with absolute free will, but who also chose correctly. And then Adam becomes knowing like God, perceives his sin, and thus realizes the necessity of making the right choice, lest his own knowledge condemn himself to hell forever. etc etc etc

This also explains the parable of the prodigal son, and in some ways the parable of the sower (those who never make a choice, never will anything, someone who wills something is eternal,[2] to choose correctly is a statement that is eternal, divine and godlike, someone who never chooses, will be as if they never existed)

2. willing something is eternal?

So Adam has to wander a scorched earth in order to find home again, etc. He has to make a gigantic leap in order avoid falling into the pit of hell, etc.

Idk, this was a lot clearer in my head, but basically, once you perceive the correct course of action, you realize what is necessary, and that there are no alternatives. That's basically "enlightenment" for me, it's somewhat of a leap.

Notice how the Buddha of the Lotus Sutra stated that his explicit purpose was to create other Buddhas like him, without distinction.

Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg, you may be interested in reading about the A.'.A.'., the idea of the Qutb (an axis that supports the world, it's a Sufi idea), the idea of the invisible church, and the election, etc.

Peace,

~The Poster Formerly Known as JJ

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 4:19 PM as a reply to Distant Admirer.
Distant Admirer:
And the first thing on the list has to be to get rid of this insanely stupid idea that enlightened people need to be a certain way, that it's something hard to do (it just takes honesty and a dose of courage).


Yes, I would assume that's true, for example, I still need to get laid. It's just something I've never done, and it's something I need to know.

Jesus didn't sit around in a cave and enjoy the bliss, he went out and kicked ass, and he called things as he saw it.


Yes, that is correct, Christ was:

A criminal, who was executed after three years after going public, because he pissed everyone off just by speaking the truth, at which point they tried to kill him, and succeeded in doing so. So that's basically his legacy.

He also says that he will return with a tongue that's a sword (AKA, the truth), and slay nations with it, thereby dissolving the status quo and returning everything to the way it was, AKA, the only way it can be.

The vision we have now is not sustainable, to dissolve the status quo means to stop trying to make an awkward situation work, or what is untenable, "go on."

Christ also said he didn't come to bring peace but a sword, and to make children hate their parents, he also overturned tables (he literally flipped tables), and hit people with a whip that he made himself. He was technically a criminal who was executed because no one could bear to hear what he saying (the status quo, the truth, etc)

Basically, the truth is that, which when spoken, causes everyone to recollect the way things were, or the only way things can be, and everyone who does not cooperate with Us (which is why God in the Qu'ran refers to himself as We, and similarly in Genesis), to be utterly annihilated, instantaneously.

And the non-enlightened teachers need to get their pants pulled down and preferably a bit of anal raping done as well (for the benefit of all sentient beings obviously).


You mean like, to be slapped in the face? And to be told sit down and shut up? haha.

In Jed McKenna parlance, we would be having a bunch of people who are studying the "art and science" of jumping off cliffs, as opposed to just jumping off a cliff, I mean you can only do it once, which is probably why people procrastinate anyways:

Go jump off a cliff. Don’t go near the cliff and contemplate jumping off. Don’t read a book about jumping off. Don’t study the art and science of jumping off. Don’t join a support group for jumping off. Don’t write poems about jumping off. Don’t kiss the ass of someone else who jumped off. Just jump.


Once again, violating the Jed McKenna copyright policy.

Since 1993,

~JJ
Getting laid is awesome, you should definetely try it, but it's not as awesome as waking up. Nothing is.

And I fucking LOVE that "Jump off a cliff" quote. Now I guess I really HAVE to become a fan boy.

Other than that I agree with everything you said.  If you haven't jumped off the cliff yet, do it now.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 4:19 PM as a reply to b man.
b man:
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
Distant Admirer:
You are literally the Dharma Overground's Jed McKenna.

Unfortunately Jed doesn't let people reproduce parts of his book, so I'm going to have to quote him:

(bold emphasis is mine)

--- removed quotes due to largeness ---

I got a lot of the formatting wrong, and this is probably violating his copyright thing, which sucks. These quotes are all from his Enlightenment Trilogy, and some from his Notebook I believe, but the contents of the Notebook are just from the Enlightenment Trilogy.

The 2 years thing is uncanny, and this rant you posted seems to speak from a similar place he does, might have to do with the brutal nature of the journey that you describe.

Maybe he'll pop up here and tell me not to quote all his stuff, he showed up on Open Enlightenment once, I think he has a Facebook.

(y)

Well from those quotes I have to admit I like the guy and I will probably have to check him out now and become some stupid kind of fan boy.

Seriously though, he's fucking spot on (of course I am only saying this because he already agrees with me). This whole fucking spirituality business is SHIT. It's like a McDonalds run by retards and producing like 1 big mac every other decade. Really, this is a valid path? SHOW ME THE ENLIGHTENEMENT!! People should be demanding their money back, but because most of them aren't actually going for enlightenemnt they won't. They got what they wanted in a way I guess, to be coddled a while and feel special, and be able to tell their friends about this amazing retreat they went to.

I actually learned a shitload from a lot of the teachers and retreats I went to, but I was lucky (thank you synchronicity) and more than that I was ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR TRUTH. Most of the people I met there weren't.

List of awesome teachers that I've met: Isaac Shapiro, Meike, Pamela Wilson, Michael Doshin Nelson and.... um, no, actually, that's it. I've also been with Tyohar and Marc Gafni but they were kind of meh. Tyohar is enjoying playing the Guru and even though he has a whole village of sycophants almost none of them are awake, Gafni is too busy trying to be thought of as the nicest guy ever and promote himself.



But really, what the fuck are we doing here if we are NOT trying to refine and spread enlightenment. Are we just posing, delving into our neurosis and doing a huge circle jerk? I mean really, we're talking about the bomb here. The thing that will liberate the world and set human beings free, where's the fire? When did enlightenment turn into something you do with other middle-class jerk offs at a retreat and then chat about with your friends? If you're awake, you're holding the keys to other human beings liberation. Are you going to just let them rot in their own filth, or are you going to put your fucking heart out there and actually do something?

This is fucking unheard of in the history of humankind. We have an online community here with several enlightened beings (and I will unabashedly claim to be one of them), when in history was there ever a better opportunity to set the world ablaze? We are the fucking anti-virus to the human condition, we can either act on that and spread this shit (and make it better) and save actual real flesh and blood human bodies. What could be more inspiring (and fun) to do?

And the first thing on the list has to be to get rid of this insanely stupid idea that enlightened people need to be a certain way, that it's something hard to do (it just takes honesty and a dose of courage). Jesus didn't sit around in a cave and enjoy the bliss, he went out and kicked ass, and he called things as he saw it. And the non-enlightened teachers need to get their pants pulled down and preferably a bit of anal raping done as well (for the benefit of all sentient beings obviously). First (and most importantly) you wake yourself up, then you wake everyone you can get your hands on up whatever it takes.  
You need some metta too, son! 

I don't need no fucking metta, unless that is code for blowjob.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 4:26 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
b man:
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
Distant Admirer:
You are literally the Dharma Overground's Jed McKenna.

Unfortunately Jed doesn't let people reproduce parts of his book, so I'm going to have to quote him:

(bold emphasis is mine)

--- removed quotes due to largeness ---

I got a lot of the formatting wrong, and this is probably violating his copyright thing, which sucks. These quotes are all from his Enlightenment Trilogy, and some from his Notebook I believe, but the contents of the Notebook are just from the Enlightenment Trilogy.

The 2 years thing is uncanny, and this rant you posted seems to speak from a similar place he does, might have to do with the brutal nature of the journey that you describe.

Maybe he'll pop up here and tell me not to quote all his stuff, he showed up on Open Enlightenment once, I think he has a Facebook.

(y)

Well from those quotes I have to admit I like the guy and I will probably have to check him out now and become some stupid kind of fan boy.

Seriously though, he's fucking spot on (of course I am only saying this because he already agrees with me). This whole fucking spirituality business is SHIT. It's like a McDonalds run by retards and producing like 1 big mac every other decade. Really, this is a valid path? SHOW ME THE ENLIGHTENEMENT!! People should be demanding their money back, but because most of them aren't actually going for enlightenemnt they won't. They got what they wanted in a way I guess, to be coddled a while and feel special, and be able to tell their friends about this amazing retreat they went to.

I actually learned a shitload from a lot of the teachers and retreats I went to, but I was lucky (thank you synchronicity) and more than that I was ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR TRUTH. Most of the people I met there weren't.

List of awesome teachers that I've met: Isaac Shapiro, Meike, Pamela Wilson, Michael Doshin Nelson and.... um, no, actually, that's it. I've also been with Tyohar and Marc Gafni but they were kind of meh. Tyohar is enjoying playing the Guru and even though he has a whole village of sycophants almost none of them are awake, Gafni is too busy trying to be thought of as the nicest guy ever and promote himself.



But really, what the fuck are we doing here if we are NOT trying to refine and spread enlightenment. Are we just posing, delving into our neurosis and doing a huge circle jerk? I mean really, we're talking about the bomb here. The thing that will liberate the world and set human beings free, where's the fire? When did enlightenment turn into something you do with other middle-class jerk offs at a retreat and then chat about with your friends? If you're awake, you're holding the keys to other human beings liberation. Are you going to just let them rot in their own filth, or are you going to put your fucking heart out there and actually do something?

This is fucking unheard of in the history of humankind. We have an online community here with several enlightened beings (and I will unabashedly claim to be one of them), when in history was there ever a better opportunity to set the world ablaze? We are the fucking anti-virus to the human condition, we can either act on that and spread this shit (and make it better) and save actual real flesh and blood human bodies. What could be more inspiring (and fun) to do?

And the first thing on the list has to be to get rid of this insanely stupid idea that enlightened people need to be a certain way, that it's something hard to do (it just takes honesty and a dose of courage). Jesus didn't sit around in a cave and enjoy the bliss, he went out and kicked ass, and he called things as he saw it. And the non-enlightened teachers need to get their pants pulled down and preferably a bit of anal raping done as well (for the benefit of all sentient beings obviously). First (and most importantly) you wake yourself up, then you wake everyone you can get your hands on up whatever it takes.  
You need some metta too, son! 

I don't need no fucking metta, unless that is code for blowjob.
lol. get both mate. 

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/26/15 5:31 PM as a reply to b man.
b man:
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:

I don't need no fucking metta, unless that is code for blowjob.
lol. get both mate. 

The metta is already here, but the blowjob is conspiciously absent. Every awakening should be followed by a group of cheerleaders rushing into your apartment and violently performing fellatio on you. (Ladies have to come up with their own version of how they want to be welcomed into the world of the awake).

Hopefully there will be some naive young female seekers that I can exploit for meaningless sex and thus ruin my non-existent reputation. Seems to be a bit of a buddhist classic.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/27/15 10:37 AM as a reply to Distant Admirer.
What is it they’re doing, Martin? The recipe for enlightenment
they’re promoting; What is it?”

“Uh, well, meditation and knowledge, basically...”

“And in thirty years they’ve never held someone up and said ‘Look at
this guy! He’s enlightened and we got him there!’ In thirty years, they
don’t have one? Don’t you think they should have, like, an entire army of
enlightened guys to show off by now?


“Well it’s not...”

“After thirty years they should have a few dozen generations of
enlightened people. Even with only a quarter of them becoming teachers,
they should have flooded the world by now, mathematically speaking,
don’t you think? I’m not asking all this as a teacher myself, mind you. I’m
just asking as a consumer, or a consumer’s advocate. Don’t you think it’s
reasonable to ask to know a teacher’s success rate?
The proof is in the
pudding, right? Didn’t you ask them about the fruit of their teachings
when you started with them?”

“Well that’s not...”

“Don’t you think it’s reasonable to ask? They’re in the enlightenment
business, aren’t they? Or did I misunderstand you? Do they have
something else going?”

“Nooo, but they...”

If Consumer Reports magazine did a report on which spiritual
organizations delivered as promised, don’t you suppose that the first
statistic listed under each organization would be success ratio?
Like, here
are a hundred randomly selected people who started with the organization
five years ago and here’s where they are today. For instance, thirty—one
have moved up in the organization, twenty-seven have moved on, thirty-
nine are still with it but not deeply committed and three have entered
abiding non-dual awareness. Okay, three percent, that’s a number you can
compare. But this organization of yours would have a big fat goose egg,
wouldn’t they? And not just out of a hundred, but out of hundreds of
thousands. Millions, probably. Am I wrong?

I wonder if he could have made his point AND let his buddy finish even one sentance.
Even if he's right... kinda of a blow hard.

still... I kinda want to find one of his books.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/27/15 12:35 PM as a reply to Doug M.
Doug M:


I wonder if he could have made his point AND let his buddy finish even one sentance.
Even if he's right... kinda of a blow hard.

still... I kinda want to find one of his books.


I actually love how he just streamrolls over that guy and gets his point across. A guy after my own taste. All the coddling and sensitivity that is parading as "compassion" in the spiritual circuit is really disgusting to me now that I am actually free. You are not being "compassionate" by actively strengthening someones sense of "me" or victimhood. If someone is having a nightmare, the compassionate thing is to wake them up.

So having said that I'm now thinking about ordering a cattle prod, going down the street zapping people in the head and screaming "YOU DON'T EXIST!". That may be even faster than Direct Pointing and should probably at least be tested a few times...

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/27/15 12:42 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias, you have the fervency and focus of a recently awakened human being, When did your awakening happen?

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/27/15 1:26 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Mattias, you have the fervency and focus of a recently awakened human being, When did your awakening happen?

Man that is a tough one to answer...

Original awakening/download happened 2 years ago, but was "lost" due to massive trauma and stuff.

I can't really put a finger on when whatever it is that has happened actually happened. In a way it is still happening too. But yes, from a relative perspective it was recently. But it hasn't been "one massive thing" this time like two years ago, but rather a bit more progressive. But it is very much still happening, especially the physical and energetic bit. The "insight" stuff is already in place but there's a lot of shit that seems to keep happening when the body and energy what-nots are adjusting and releasing.

To be honest I don't know if people would really want this shit if they knew what it is. At least not the way it has been experienced here. Intense fucking pains, fears, loss of control of body, anxiety attacks, panic, more pain, shaking, energies bolting through the system, chakras going nuts... it's not pretty. I feel like I've been getting the shit kicked out of my by God for months. Still there's a sense of "BRING IT ON!! FUCK YEAH!!". So it's all good. And other people DO seem to have a much nicer ride...

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/27/15 1:30 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Actually I feel I need to add to that...


"I" did not awaken. Awakening awakens, if that makes sense. There is no "I" and there never was, other than as a held belief and label to put on certain thoughts, emotions etc. The whole idea that this is something "I" did is kind of completely nonsense. "My" whole life there was nothing the "I" ever did, it just fucking happened by itself. It really look like there is an I doing it, it's a really, really convincing illusion (good job mind, you fucking cunt). There's no ME, it's (at most) a character in a play and a complete projection. 

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/27/15 3:43 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:

So having said that I'm now thinking about ordering a cattle prod, going down the street zapping people in the head and screaming "YOU DON'T EXIST!". That may be even faster than Direct Pointing and should probably at least be tested a few times...



LOL.

I can't tell if I wan't you as a teacher or I want you listed on a restraining order.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/27/15 3:59 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
"I" did not awaken. Awakening awakens, if that makes sense.

It makes eminent sense to me.

I can both sympathize and celebrate with you. You may need what I'd call "integration." To work toward accommodating what has happened and finding ways to deal with it. Maybe there's someone nearby who can help you. Someone who's been there, done that. Such people are available and more common that you might think.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/28/15 9:47 AM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Paweł K:

1. Traumatic events and lot of time and effort spent on seeking awakening -> strong emotions toward it, making it in your head much more important than it really is. So people fool themselves, so what? What is it to you? If you are awakened you should know universe is perfect and your holy mission is not necessary.

Also do your idea to make them awaken is really better than what is mainstream? Is zapping people in the head really better?

Awakening is incredibly important, it’s just not that special, is this ones perspective. It is after all, the end of suffering a misery both on a personal and eventually global level. It is pretty much what ”life is all about”.

If zapping someone in the head WILL actually awaken then (seems unlikely or ECT would have delivered a lot of Buddhas) it’s definitely worth it. This body/mind system has been through much worse and if I was still under the illusion that it was possible to make choices, I would have said that I would chose enlightenment even with all the pain.

Paweł K:

2. Rushing things without consideration of how you actually feel about it, unskillful way to 'awaken'. Lots of potential to make serious harm to yourself, block your energetic system. It is not your job to awaken parts of your mind by force. Even if it doesn't seem like you do anything it is still tendency of mind to try to control other parts of it, even by forcefully 'letting go of control'. For deepening of awakening this have to be seen through.

Don’t worry, ”I” am not doing anything. Body is taking care of it, there is no pushing or forcing here, only relaxation/meditation and ranting on the internet (which has a high entertainment factor).

Paweł K:

3. There seems to be unrealized unskillful tendencies of mind to indulge in some very unskillful actions and sensations because you believe it is for 'higher cause'.

No that’s just the way it comes out, there’s no real connection between what is said and what is actually happening. There’s no ”real” belief in a higher cause (or belief in anything), there’s just curiosity and an impulse to want to help or share information. The brain is just being allowed to express itself and its zany ideas (some of which may be good).
Paweł K:

Also why the rant? It have no other purpose than ranting itself. Is this ranting success ratio all that good? Maybe be more humble and stop for a minute and ask your mind, ask whole universe, 'how can I help others?', not to 'awaken' or whatever you feel should be done but just help, that is if any help is necessary. That would be imho more skillful and beneficial for people around you and yourself too than 'holy rage' and almost shout at people. Maybe it is sometimes skillful, I do not say it is not, just be sure to not fall for a trap of shouting for shouting alone.

This body/mind system is inclined towards the fastest-route-to-stream-entry and is very creative and somewhat forceful (Manifestor 5/1 in the HD system) so it will simply have another angle on the whole awakening thing. It wants everyone to wake up NOW. Whether that is something that happens or not is really up to the universe to decide, don’t you agree? ;)
Paweł K:

Some people feel like 'fucking awakened' compared to everyone else that whole enlightenment seems like bad joke to them, and rant so much about it that people name dogs after them. Do you want to become like U G Krishnamurti? Obviously awakened person but somehow not seeing his basic character flaw and own stupidity. I am not comparing insight or specific things you say but attitude.

I don’t want to become anything! The ”I” was a joke, it’s not even there. This body/mind system wants to fill its destiny, whatever that is. Free will doesn’t exist, I’m out of here! emoticon
Paweł K:

BTW. Despite my harsh observations you are partially right... there should be group of young hot women following every enlightened man. Not for me but for their own sake. But I guess only rockers can get it all at once: groupie sex, drugs and rock&roll, and we the so called 'awakened beings' have to pretend we are everything to overcompensate emoticon

LOL!
Well you know, obviously all the blow jobs I expect to be getting now that I an enlightened will be for the benefit of all sentient beings. ;)
Paweł K:

ps. congratulations for whatever you have going on. By no means listen to my own ranting and "BRING IT ON!! FUCK YEAH!!"

Thank you, we will see what the universe is up to. There seems to be a lot of shifts happening and the spread of the E-virus seem to be accelerating.
Paweł K:

@b man (and Mattias too)
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DO NOT QUOTE WHOLE POSTS, ESPECIALLY WITH MULTIPLE QUOTES INSIDE IT!!!

- Pawel K's mouse scroll wheel

MESSAGE RECEIVED!!

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/28/15 10:01 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
"I" did not awaken. Awakening awakens, if that makes sense.

It makes eminent sense to me.

I can both sympathize and celebrate with you. You may need what I'd call "integration." To work toward accommodating what has happened and finding ways to deal with it. Maybe there's someone nearby who can help you. Someone who's been there, done that. Such people are available and more common that you might think.
From this side of the reality tunnel it kind of doesn't make sense. Everything will unfold exactly the way it should, there is nothing that can ever go wrong. Integration will happen, or won't happen, and it will be perfect the way it happens or does not happen. If additional teachers or interations are needed, they will show up or happen. There IS no doer.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/28/15 11:01 AM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
If additional teachers or interations are needed, they will show up or happen. There IS no doer.

And a search for help, or for a teacher with experience, is the result of the non-doer just doing it's thing. Everything works that way, Mattias.


emoticon

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/28/15 11:53 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
If additional teachers or interations are needed, they will show up or happen. There IS no doer.

And a search for help, or for a teacher with experience, is the result of the non-doer just doing it's thing. Everything works that way, Mattias.


emoticon
LOL, I know! Which is why this whole communication thing is so weird. What the fuck are we talking about really?

If it happens it happens, if it doesn't happen it doesn't happen. Nobody is making a decision, you can't stop it, you can't not stop it, there's no you. Language is so stupid!

It's just so silly the whole thing... God/reality is such a fucking joker.


Ps. This body/mind system is inherently almost aggressive against any form of perceived "outside" influence though, it seems to be a main fucntion of the aura/type of a Manifestor. Check out Human Design if you're interested in that stuff, there's a huge urge in this system to share it.

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/28/15 1:55 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
And when I said cheerleaders before, of course I ment yoga babes. It makes so much sense now. Yoga babes for the buddhas! emoticon

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/28/15 5:16 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Paweł K:
.....
@b man (and Mattias too)
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DO NOT QUOTE WHOLE POSTS, ESPECIALLY WITH MULTIPLE QUOTES INSIDE IT!!!

- Pawel K's mouse scroll wheel

RE: Grossly overcomplicating things
Answer
6/28/15 11:16 PM as a reply to b man.

- Pawel K's mouse scroll wheel