Message Boards Message Boards

Claims to Attainments

It Has Happened

Toggle
It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/8/15 10:11 PM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/9/15 9:19 PM
RE: It Has Happened Jeff Wright 9/10/15 9:09 AM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/10/15 9:49 AM
RE: It Has Happened Jeff Wright 9/10/15 11:50 AM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/12/15 11:15 PM
RE: It Has Happened Blue Jay 9/13/15 7:53 AM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/13/15 8:03 PM
RE: It Has Happened Gerry V 9/13/15 8:45 PM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/14/15 1:53 AM
RE: It Has Happened Eva Nie 9/15/15 11:48 PM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/16/15 12:20 AM
RE: It Has Happened Oochdd 9/13/15 11:40 AM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/13/15 8:47 PM
RE: It Has Happened Daniel M. Ingram 9/14/15 12:12 AM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/14/15 1:03 AM
RE: It Has Happened Ian And 9/13/15 1:14 PM
RE: It Has Happened Jenny 9/14/15 10:59 PM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/15/15 1:19 AM
RE: It Has Happened Jenny 9/15/15 8:54 PM
RE: It Has Happened Blue Jay 9/16/15 2:07 AM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/16/15 2:32 AM
RE: It Has Happened MangaDesuYo 9/15/15 4:52 AM
RE: It Has Happened Jenny 9/15/15 9:03 PM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/15/15 1:48 AM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/15/15 9:15 AM
RE: It Has Happened chris mc 9/15/15 12:12 PM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/15/15 4:28 PM
RE: It Has Happened Oochdd 9/16/15 3:16 AM
RE: It Has Happened CJMacie 9/16/15 3:03 AM
RE: It Has Happened CJMacie 9/16/15 8:27 AM
RE: It Has Happened Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/16/15 7:01 AM
RE: It Has Happened CJMacie 9/16/15 9:43 AM
RE: It Has Happened Psi 9/16/15 3:26 AM
RE: It Has Happened bernd the broter 9/16/15 3:32 AM
RE: It Has Happened CJMacie 9/16/15 3:18 AM
RE: It Has Happened Jenny 9/15/15 8:42 PM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/15/15 9:06 PM
RE: It Has Happened Jenny 9/15/15 9:23 PM
RE: It Has Happened Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/15/15 9:41 PM
RE: It Has Happened Jenny 9/15/15 9:51 PM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/15/15 10:33 PM
RE: It Has Happened Jenny 9/15/15 9:42 PM
RE: It Has Happened bernd the broter 9/16/15 2:54 AM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/16/15 3:00 AM
RE: It Has Happened bernd the broter 9/16/15 3:18 AM
RE: It Has Happened Psi 9/16/15 3:47 AM
RE: It Has Happened Noah 9/15/15 11:58 PM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/16/15 12:10 AM
RE: It Has Happened Psi 9/16/15 2:28 AM
RE: It Has Happened Eva Nie 9/16/15 12:36 AM
RE: It Has Happened Dharmasar 9/16/15 1:13 AM
RE: It Has Happened Mark 9/16/15 5:30 AM
RE: It Has Happened bernd the broter 9/16/15 7:32 AM
RE: It Has Happened Mark 9/16/15 8:17 AM
RE: It Has Happened Nikolai . 9/16/15 7:37 AM
RE: It Has Happened Noah 9/16/15 8:22 AM
RE: It Has Happened Nikolai . 9/16/15 8:34 AM
RE: It Has Happened bernd the broter 9/16/15 9:18 AM
RE: It Has Happened Noah 9/16/15 9:20 AM
RE: It Has Happened Eva Nie 9/17/15 12:03 AM
RE: It Has Happened Mark 9/17/15 3:50 AM
RE: It Has Happened bernd the broter 9/17/15 5:46 AM
RE: It Has Happened CJMacie 9/17/15 7:57 AM
RE: It Has Happened Laurel Carrington 9/17/15 8:39 AM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/17/15 10:33 AM
RE: It Has Happened Mark 9/17/15 8:13 AM
RE: It Has Happened Laurel Carrington 9/17/15 8:28 AM
RE: It Has Happened bernd the broter 9/17/15 9:35 AM
RE: It Has Happened Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/17/15 9:42 AM
RE: It Has Happened Laurel Carrington 9/17/15 10:04 AM
RE: It Has Happened bernd the broter 9/17/15 12:58 PM
RE: It Has Happened Laurel Carrington 9/17/15 1:35 PM
RE: It Has Happened bernd the broter 9/17/15 3:05 PM
RE: It Has Happened Eva Nie 9/17/15 8:21 PM
RE: It Has Happened Jenny 9/19/15 4:50 PM
RE: It Has Happened Chris M 9/20/15 4:55 PM
RE: It Has Happened Eva Nie 9/22/15 4:56 PM
RE: It Has Happened Daniel M. Ingram 9/24/15 1:31 AM
RE: It Has Happened Laurel Carrington 9/23/15 4:52 PM
RE: It Has Happened Noah 9/23/15 6:41 PM
RE: It Has Happened darwin 9/24/15 1:15 AM
RE: It Has Happened chris mc 11/15/15 2:08 PM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 9/25/15 7:51 AM
RE: It Has Happened Laurel Carrington 9/20/15 6:56 PM
RE: It Has Happened Mark 9/17/15 11:02 AM
RE: It Has Happened Psi 9/17/15 10:20 AM
RE: It Has Happened Eva Nie 9/17/15 1:04 PM
RE: It Has Happened Laurel Carrington 9/17/15 1:37 PM
RE: It Has Happened Pål 9/22/15 4:03 PM
RE: It Has Happened Pål 9/18/15 3:01 AM
RE: It Has Happened Jimmy Jing Fu Wong 9/27/15 8:08 PM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/6/15 12:52 PM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/7/15 9:50 AM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/7/15 10:06 AM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/7/15 11:22 AM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/7/15 11:34 AM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/7/15 12:02 PM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/7/15 12:28 PM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/7/15 1:00 PM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/7/15 1:08 PM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/7/15 1:22 PM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/7/15 1:36 PM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/7/15 2:51 PM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/7/15 3:00 PM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/7/15 3:14 PM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/7/15 4:26 PM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/7/15 5:34 PM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/7/15 5:46 PM
RE: It Has Happened katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/7/15 7:03 PM
RE: It Has Happened Mark 10/8/15 4:48 AM
RE: It Has Happened Vince 10/8/15 9:54 AM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/8/15 10:10 AM
RE: It Has Happened Mark 10/8/15 12:00 PM
RE: It Has Happened CJMacie 10/9/15 9:02 AM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/9/15 9:25 AM
RE: It Has Happened CJMacie 10/10/15 7:08 AM
RE: It Has Happened Noah 10/10/15 7:18 AM
RE: It Has Happened Mick Swan 11/11/15 11:18 AM
RE: It Has Happened chris mc 11/15/15 2:08 PM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/9/15 9:16 AM
RE: It Has Happened Mark 10/10/15 6:41 AM
RE: It Has Happened Eva Nie 10/7/15 8:21 PM
RE: It Has Happened Eva Nie 10/7/15 1:04 PM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/7/15 11:37 AM
RE: It Has Happened . Jake . 10/7/15 11:43 AM
It Has Happened
Answer
9/8/15 10:11 PM
It has happened: at age 68, after many years of spiritual research, discipline and practice, I attained to Arahant. I want to acknowledge Daniel's insights and experiences, since mine were and are very similar, tending to validate his model.

Before discovering the Buddha's teaching I was a student of Bhakti and Vedānta. I was a Hindu monk and disciple of a prominent Indian guru for over 30 years. I practiced and attained everything that was described in that path (BTW I do not subscribe to the usual interpretation of Vedānta attributed to Śāṅkarācārya) and even became a guru myself. But I felt incomplete and unsatisfied, leading to resigning my position and beginning my search anew. 

I determined to base my new search for truth on experience rather than faith. This led to research into Existentialism, especially Heidegger. After seeing some of my videos online, a friend told me, "Your understanding is very similar to Theravāda Buddhism." I had encountered Buddhism before, of course, but during my early search in the 60s Theravāda was not readily available in the West. I didn't like Tibetan Buddhism because it seemed a recast of Hinduism, and Zen seemed to have a lot of background missing.

But as soon as I read some books by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, I could see that Theravāda was a lot closer to the original teaching of the Buddha. So I got some copies of the Suttas and dove in. I went to Thailand but could not find a monastery where I felt comfortable. Buddhadasa's disciples had largely given up his radical Suttānta stance and caved in to government pressure to conform to the orthodoxy. I got an invitation to go to Sri Lanka and went there to study. I was ordained as a monk and lived in a forest monastery for almost two years.

Here I should backtrack and recount an episode from the 1980s. After my Indian guru passed away I became interested in Rajneesh ('Osho') and investigated, even visiting his commune in Oregon. I could not stand his organization, which seemed infected by sociopaths. But I was impressed by the breadth of his work, even if it seemed rather shallow at times. Anyway I started to study his methods and after some time, settled on his book Secret of Secrets, a presentation of the Chinese classic The Secret of the Golden Flower (T'ai I Chin Hua Tsung Chih). I had some background in Chinese martial arts and Taoist energy work, and it made sense to me.

I took about two months out from my usual practices to study this method intensively. I started sitting meditation and worked up from 2 hours a day until I was doing virtually nothing else every waking moment. I could only sit for 20-30 minutes at a time, then would take a break and stretch, sit right back down and start again. After about six weeks of this practice, I had what I can only describe as an oceanic experience of universal bliss. All the usual symptoms of Kuṇdalīni manifested, along with a vision of all-pervading consciousness and light. I was high for weeks afterward. At the time I interpreted this as realization of Brahman, but later on as I understood the Buddha's teaching I could understand that this was Stream Entry. I read of many similar experiences on this forum.

Fast-forward to two years ago. Living in the forest monastery, in a kuṭi with a spectacular view overlooking the whole southern province of Sri Lanka, I had two more breakthroughs, much subtler and deeper than I had experienced in 1984. I'm not going to describe all the details here because it would make this much too long. In each case, I was not pursuing any specific kind of enlightenment or realization, but simply plugging along with my study and practice of the Suttas. The experiences were spontaneous and unexpected, which helped to convince me they were genuine.

I should mention that for a long time I had doubts about my 1984 experience, until my studies convinced me that it was Stream Entry. As soon as I acknowledged the attainment, I felt much better about everything. Doubting attainments leads to confusion. Part of the mind, the intuitive wisdom, knows very well what you have attained. Another part, the social superego, is afraid of what other people will think. Over time I have learned to trust my intuition.

As you may well imagine, my realizations led to a deep conflict with the orthodox Buddhist monks and society. Many of these issues have been well-discussed on this forum and do not require elaboration here. I left the monastery and began to live independently as a monk. During this time I continued writing and making videos, gradually taking responsibility for my attainments. And of course, I kept up my practice. I should mention that during this time I got an introduction to Bhikkhu Kaṭakuruṇde Ñāṇananda. I was able to visit him and get his blessings. More than anything else, his teachings opened up the mystery of Nibbāna for me.

I was invited to Norway last summer to teach at a spiritual center. It was not an especially happy time. The Norwegians are, socially and consciousness-wise, where the US was in the 1950s: enjoying lots of material abundance, naively thinking it will bring happiness. So teaching Theravāda there was like trying to teach the calculus to kindergartners. People were looking for a pleasant 'spiritual' vacation with some nice entertaining stories. They did not want to be challenged to think or pursue deep insight. So it was rather unsatisfying but I got a lot of good coursework and practice done. 

It happened on the plane, on the way back to Sri Lanka. I was sitting next to a nice educated Arabic couple with an infant. As usual I was meditating and of course the baby was fussy. So I had to concentrate especially hard to keep focus. On the approach to Dubai I reached a peak of concentration. Suddenly I clearly saw the cause of suffering and its cessation. I experienced this:
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.' ... Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'" — Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
The Sutta phrase "Released. There is nothing more for this world," spontaneously arose in my mind. Unfortunately I could not just relax and savor the moment, because shortly we landed and I had to endure the usual airport nonsense. But once I landed in Sri Lanka and got back to my kuṭi, I was amazed how my internal state had changed. Huge chunks of mental stuff were just gone, everything was very clear within, and I could not doubt that something very profound had happened. I spent three weeks hardly eating or sleeping, just absorbed in the attainment, trying to understand the significance of it all.

Of course, this was the final nail in the coffin of my relationship with Buddhist orthodoxy. Although I haven't posted anything specifically about being an Arahant, I have caught quite a bit of flak on orthodox Buddhist forums for views expressed in my videos and writings. Oh well, I don't consider those people's association especially beneficial, anyway. But it's too bad that 'Buddhists' have now become just like the Brahmins in the Buddha's time. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/9/15 9:19 PM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Paweł K:
Congratulations  emoticon ...it would be helpful if you describe your state now, what you perceive, what changed and why, best in your own words, your own insights, even if they sound completely insane.

Thanks Pawel; kudos to you as well. When I first came across this site, I was somewhat skeptical. I suppose I had been indoctrinated by the religious dogma that Nibbāna is far away and it takes many lifetimes to reach. Now I see that as a smokescreen to cover the fact that religious leaders are themselves unenlightened, so they try their best to deny the state to others and discourage people from reaching it.

It would have been easier to describe the changes immediately after the experience. But I needed to assimiliate the new state and perceptions, and that took several weeks of deeply concentrated contemplation. Now it seems normal, as if I had always been this way. But I shall try to respond for the sake of elucidating this fascinating phenomenon of enlightenment.

For those who have not had a chance to check out my channel, my approach has been synergistic. I employ several practices from various traditions that are helpful for me, and practice them more or less simultaneously. My view is that the various practices fall naturally into the divisions of the seven chakras, which can function more or less independently. So there is nothing to prevent doing more than one at a time. This also helps maintain balance and develop the different sides of our being.

The best way to describe my state is that I feel complete. Previously I always felt there was something missing, a psychological ache of desire for an elusive experience of being whole. That ache is now gone. In fact, desire of all kinds is very attenuated. Now I hardly feel the need for food or sleep. Of course I still take care of my body but wait until I really need to, until I feel a strong unambiguous physical urge to supply its needs—not just for the sake of enjoyment but because it really needs something.

I don't follow any particular precepts, ceremonies, rules or regulations. OTOH, I don't feel any need not to. They sort of happen automatically. Although I am ordained in the Theravāda Sāsana, I also have ordinations, initiations and empowerments from other traditions, some of which I still practice. Lately I have allowed by hair and beard to grow—maybe spending time in frigid Norway this summer had something to do with that. But even back in Sri Lanka, looking and dressing as a regular monk just seems... wrong somehow. 

I feel uncomfortable in robes. I don't want to project the image of an orthodox monk, because I'm not. I feel like a monk, but I am unique. Maybe I will start my own small Saṅgha or lineage—but it will be very unlike conventional religious 'buddhism'. The regular monks have become more like householders, attached and clinging to their monasteries, titles, positions and even their robes. Being a monk has become more like a job; it's hard to have any respect for them. And of course, the regimentation in the orthodox schools seems appalling.

My wishes and intentions seem to be fulfilled almost automatically. Whether it's for money, teaching partners or whatever, anything connected to my prime purpose of spreading the Buddha's teaching, as I understand and realize it, just seems to happen almost effortlessly. It's some kind of state of grace, a beautiful dance with the universe.

Of course, my public declaration of fourth path signifies a complete and irrevocable break with orthodox religious 'buddhism'. I don't feel that as a loss but more like a sense of relief: I don't have to pretend to be an ordinary monk anymore. It's more important to take a stand on what I know to be true. I have confidence that those whose minds are open will get it. I often feel an enormous, even overwhelming sense of pity and compassion for those who have not yet realized this state. This has led to a strong urge to spread the Buddha's teaching—or at least my view of it—as broadly as possible. 

I can't say that I feel super blissful, like I did after Stream-entry in 1984; but neither do I feel sad or fearful. There is a subtle, steady low-level joy that seeps through every experience. In meditation, there is a kind of indirect light that illuminates everything, even in the higher jhānas. That has been there for some time now. It's hard to explain.

I know that I could play with this. I could have a lot of fun just sitting and messing around in my mind forever. But I don't need to. I think it's far more important to spend my limited time here to help others realize this state. 

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, or if it's helpful. It might help to ask more specific questions. I'd also like to hear more from you about your experiences. 

All the best to everyone!

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/10/15 9:09 AM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Ven. Dharmasar Thero:

...

The best way to describe my state is that I feel complete. Previously I always felt there was something missing, a psychological ache of desire for an elusive experience of being whole. That ache is now gone. In fact, desire of all kinds is very attenuated. Now I hardly feel the need for food or sleep. Of course I still take care of my body but wait until I really need to, until I feel a strong unambiguous physical urge to supply its needs—not just for the sake of enjoyment but because it really needs something.

...

I know that I could play with this. I could have a lot of fun just sitting and messing around in my mind forever. But I don't need to. I think it's far more important to spend my limited time here to help others realize this state.

Beautiful. Thank you.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/10/15 9:49 AM as a reply to Jeff Wright.
You're welcome, Jeff. As I contemplate these events, even now it's becoming hard to remember what it was like. So much has changed, and so little is left of what I was before. In fact, it's quite clear that there is nothing like a permanent 'self' at all, and never was. It's like cleaning years of accumulated cruft out of your computer; it runs so much faster and smoother, it's hard to recall what it was like when it was clogged with junk.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/10/15 11:50 AM as a reply to Dharmasar.
I love stories like yours where I see firsthand that the Buddha's teachings can lead to liberation in this very lifetime - even for regular guys. Not like I will be taking up robes anytime soon, but stream entry seems like an attainable goal for me. Thanks again.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/12/15 11:15 PM as a reply to Jeff Wright.
Jeff Wright:
I love stories like yours where I see firsthand that the Buddha's teachings can lead to liberation in this very lifetime - even for regular guys. Not like I will be taking up robes anytime soon, but stream entry seems like an attainable goal for me. Thanks again.
Jeff, I am totally a regular guy—just an ordinary slob from the suburbs of New Jersey. If I can do this, then anyone can. It's a matter of focus, determination, and sifting through all the false teachings until you get the Dhamma Eye. I think it's perfectly possible for a reasonably intelligent person to get Stream Entry in 3-5 years. You want to develop a strategic overview of the Buddha's teaching gleaned from the Suttas; avoid the Commentaries and Abhidhamma, and people who tell you it's impossible; then practice, practice, practice. 

The Four Noble Truths are central in this regard: understand suffering, abandon its causes, develop the Path and realize cessation. The reason I put them in this order (1-2-4-3) is that practically speaking, the Path must be developed before it's possible to realize cessation. I've tried to make this clear in my online courses.

Regarding ordination, you have to consider your situation. It was a good choice for me because I already was a renunciant in the Vedic tradition and used to an austere lifestyle. It can help to reduce distractions, such as having to make a living, IF you can find a monastery that gives you the freedom to practice intensively without a lot of complications. That's a big 'if'. Most monastics tend to be rather orthodox, fundamentalist religious Buddhists.

I can't overstress the need for intensive practice. My First Path fruit came in 1984 after just sitting, 12-18 hours a day, alone in a quiet, nearly empty apartment with no distractions, for six weeks. Before that I had done years of other meditative practices. It was an oceanic experience of all-pervasive consciousness and bliss. The higher Paths were much more subtle and quiet, but just as profound in their own way.

I wish you all the best, and may you attain your wishes for self-realization without delay.

with mettā

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/13/15 7:53 AM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Congratulations!

I'm moved by your description of your enlightenment process.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/13/15 8:03 PM as a reply to Blue Jay.
Hi Blue Jay,

Thank you. The funny thing is, I wasn't consciously trying to attain anything in particular; I was just trying to concentrate hard enough to shut out the crying baby next door. The same thing happened before with other realizations. It's not like 'I' was 'doing' anything; I was just floating around in jhāna, minding my own business, and spontaneously, "Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before..." — Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/13/15 11:40 AM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Congrats! Sounds like a great attainment!

Have you talked to any of the other 4th pathers here to see how your experiences line up?

And would you say that your practice differs from standard MCTB fare, and if so how? What do you think finally flipped the switch?

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/13/15 1:14 PM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Fixed the link.
Ven. Dharmasar Thero:
The funny thing is, I wasn't consciously trying to attain anything in particular; I was just trying to concentrate hard enough to shut out the crying baby next door. The same thing happened before with other realizations. It's not like 'I' was 'doing' anything; I was just floating around in jhāna, minding my own business, and spontaneously, "Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before..." — Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

And it is this "vision" and "knowledge" which arose which has nothing to do with belief or subjective opinion (which can change over time) but everything to do with objective recognition of "things as they are" which can be so difficult to communicate to another who has not spent the time in practice leading to the dissolution of dukkha. Which is to say, there are no short cuts to such all-encompassing recollection and realization.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/13/15 8:45 PM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Paweł K - 
"My observation is that interest in chakras on this board is almost zero so it is nice to see some highly developed person to take liking in them too. For me chakras are not so much some colored flowers with petals from book but actual qualities related to body parts. There is some number of them and they are related to how experience is constructed." 

I'm very interested in the chakras Pawel, I'd love to hear your thoughts about them. For me lately I've been getting lots of activity in the 6th (ajna chakra I think?) and some activity at the top of the head. I've been working with those lately. I'm pre 1st path and I've read a few things about activity at the 6th chakra relating to high equanimity. I'd love to see a post on the chakras, your posts are very interesting.

edit: Don't know how to do a proper quote, but cleaned it up a bit.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/13/15 8:47 PM as a reply to Oochdd.
Oochdd:
Congrats! Sounds like a great attainment!

Have you talked to any of the other 4th pathers here to see how your experiences line up?

And would you say that your practice differs from standard MCTB fare, and if so how? What do you think finally flipped the switch?

Thanks Oochdd (how do you pronouce that? emoticon

When I discovered this community some time ago, I read MCTB and went through this forum topic pretty thoroughly. I agree with Daniel in principle, that the limited activity model of monk life is unnecessary for attainment. But for me it made sense to ordain, since I had been a monk in the Vedic lineage before discovering Theravāda and was comfortable with an austere lifestyle. I still identify as a monk, sorta. Sometimes I even wear my robes emoticon. But I do not identify as a member of any particular order or a disciple of any particular teacher. However I do have great respect for Buddhadāsa Bhikkhu and Bhikkhu Ñāṇananda, my current mentor. 

It's pretty clear to me that while some aspects of the path are similar for everyone, the approach to Nibbāna can be—indeed, must be—unique and individual for each. That sounds awfully vague and general, but that easily could be a book-length subject and I don't want this to get too long.

There's no doubt about it, my meeting with Bhikkhu Ñāṇananda was the catalyst for this breakthrough. I met him in person one time about a year ago, after I already had realized Third Path. We chatted for some time, and the discussion gradually went deeper. Finally he said, "You know, Nibbāna is non-conceptual." The profundity of this simple statement hit me like a brick; I went into spontaneous deep contemplation. I suddenly saw so many connections and understood so much that had remained obscure in the Buddha's teaching—and in life. Ñāṇananda was cool, he just went on chatting with the man who had driven me up to see him. Eventually they sort of poured me into the car and took me home. emoticon

So I went deep into Ñāṇananda's books and lectures and the Suttas they are based on, did several video series on them over the summer while I was teaching in Norway. Gradually the non-conceptual nature of Nibbāna became clear to me; or maybe I should say, I finally became comfortable with this profoundly counterintuitive notion. As someone who got through life mainly on the strength of intellect, I had some resistance to the fact that thinking was not going to get me there. But Ñāṇananda's clear explanations of the deep Suttas wore away the stone; gradually I accepted the truth on a deep emotional level. And then it happened.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/14/15 12:12 AM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Thanks for posting your experiences and perspectives here. I am glad this place has been helpful in some way: it defintely has been for me.

If you find yourself in Northern Alabama, look me up! Perhaps we could have dinner.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/14/15 1:03 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Hi Daniel, thanks for your message and for your time, energy and courage in establishing this online community. It has been very helpful in expaning my horizons as far as the possibilities of the Buddha's teaching, and the support beyond the 'official' views in recognizing my attainments. 

I do plan to return to the US someday, at least for a visit. I would like to teach, but the conditions there make me want to just visit until things sort themselves out a bit more. Maybe after the next election I'll be able to make up my mind... emoticon

All the best, D.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/14/15 1:53 AM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Paweł K:
For me chakras are not so much some colored flowers with petals from book but actual qualities related to body parts. There is some number of them and they are related to how experience is constructed. I hope to hear what you have to say about them experience-wise.

Exactly. I can feel the chakras' functions as energy flows in the body itself. Maybe you could say they are the anatomy of the subtle body. Anyway they seem to be vortexes of particular kinds of energy and centers of specific bodily functions with different vibratory frequencies. The omission of chakras from the Buddha's teaching is hard for me to understand. I don't see, for example, how anyone could reach attainments without having fully opened the lower chakras and the heart. 

After all the Buddha spent his formative years in the company of experts in all kinds of knowledge, both practical and theoretical. Having grown up in pleasure palaces, he must have known Tantra and Yoga, all kinds of things. So the Buddha as a person, leaving home and going into his search, was not at all in a condition similar to a contemporary person becoming a monk. He already had numerous skills and attainments not mentioned in the Suttas or recognized by most Buddhist schools. This is a huge oversight, and I think it goes a long way to explain why so few people attain.

I had the good fortune to study many paths deeply before discovering the Theravāda. I think that deep background made it possible for me to recognize many subtle aspects of the Buddha's teaching that are usually lost on people today, especially westerners. But the situation in the 'buddhist' countries is just as bad, if not worse. The Vedic tradition openly admits that the ancient wisdom was divided into various separate schools. So no one tradition has all the knowledge needed to attain enlightenment. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/14/15 10:59 PM as a reply to Dharmasar.
I attained fourth path July 30.

It came via 4 shifts with radical dimantling of perception itself and with abiding vastness of awareness emanating from everything, such that perception, phenomenalism, no longer exists as such. Bacially--everything in Ingram's list of 4th path criteria was attained during a one-week retreat. It is still settling in, with neural rewiring and energetic reorganization that I can actually feel. 

There are also big changes in how emotions move through, with a seemingly huge sloughing off of reactivity to events and the emotions themselves.

The center/subject is utterly gone. Object field no longer refers back to or creates a subject.

Many boundaries fell during that week of a Mahamudra retreat. I'm doing practices nightly, per my teacher's instructions, to "protect the gains" and make sure there isn't some last subtle boundary that was missed. So far, nothing. All empty-luminous vast awareness-manifestation. The difference from preawakening is dramatic, not at all subtle.

I'm curious whether those changes are part of what you are calling fourth path, or whether you mean by a different model than MCTB.

Enjoy,
Jenny

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 1:19 AM as a reply to Jenny.
LOL, I don't know what you read, but possibly you misunderstood something. The stream entry event happened back in 1984 after about six weeks of sitting 12-18 hours a day. It was very impressive, intense and oceanic. The later paths were much more subtle. Anyway I'm just sharing here, not trying to convince anyone of anything. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 4:52 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Jenny:
I attained fourth path July 30.

It came via 4 shifts with radical dimantling of perception itself and with abiding vastness of awareness emanating from everything, such that perception, phenomenalism, no longer exists as such. Bacially--everything in Ingram's list of 4th path criteria was attained during a one-week retreat. It is still settling in, with neural rewiring and energetic reorganization that I can actually feel. 

There are also big changes in how emotions move through, with a seemingly huge sloughing off of reactivity to events and the emotions themselves.

The center/subject is utterly gone. Object field no longer refers back to or creates a subject.

Many boundaries fell during that week of a Mahamudra retreat. I'm doing practices nightly, per my teacher's instructions, to "protect the gains" and make sure there isn't some last subtle boundary that was missed. So far, nothing. All empty-luminous vast awareness-manifestation. The difference from preawakening is dramatic, not at all subtle.

I'm curious whether those changes are part of what you are calling fourth path, or whether you mean by a different model than MCTB.

Enjoy,
Jenny
What practice/technique did you use to get that far? (noting?)

I have read some of your post that only with 30 minutes a day for around 100 days you already reached stream entry...

PS: sorry thero, this was meant for Jenny, the quotes didn't work out

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 1:48 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Jenny:
I attained fourth path July 30...
I'm curious whether those changes are part of what you are calling fourth path, or whether you mean by a different model than MCTB.
Hi Jenny, congratulations are in order. I don't really follow any model. It seems to me that any conceptual model or fixed frame of reference is limiting and ultimately superficial, no matter how grand it may sound on paper. From my POV, nibbāna is the unknown, even the unknowable.

I draw practices from many different traditions and teachers. I improvise like a jazz musician (which I used to be, BTW). I deal with what presents itself by whatever means seem appropriate at the time. I like the aphorism 'the obstacle is the path.'

I would not describe my process or state in terms of any view whatsoever, what to speak of cosmic or absolute terms. Once a sādhu in South India pressed me to describe my philosophy. After some thought, the best I could come up with is 'unconditioned nonduality'. 

Many years ago I saw an episode of Zen Comix that still gives me a chuckle. A young novice has a nice kensho in the temple. He runs to the Master, who is tending the garden, and ecstatically begins to describe his attainment. The viewpoint shifts to far away, where we can only hear the most emphatic words: "blah blah blah UNIVERSAL... blah blah COSMIC... blah blah blah ALL SENTIENT BEINGS... blah blah EVERYTHING!!!" The young monk looks at the Master, anxiously awaiting his acknowledgement. The Master finishes hoeing the row, leans on the handle, wipes the sweat from his brow, frowns and says... "SO WHAT BOY!" and calmly goes back to his weeding.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 9:15 AM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Thero:

The Master finishes hoeing the row, leans on the handle, wipes the sweat from his brow (...) goes back to his weeding.
Halleluja. 

Zen <---> Ch'an <---> Jhana/dhyana <sigh>



a jazz musician (which I used to be, BTW)


Spent 'data dollars' on Odyssey of Iska this week.
Worth. while.


RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 12:12 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
A few years ago, I read some posts here by 'Ven. Nyanasara Thero'.  I watched a few of his youtube videos, then he suddenly disappeared, left his monastery, and deleted his youtube videos and his website material.

I did some googling to see where had gone off to.  I was a bit (disturbed?  confused?) at what I found.  I'm not trying to attack someone here, I'll just post a few links and let people form their own opinions.  I see that this person is thinking of teaching, or is teaching now, and I have concerned feelings about that, based on his past actions. 

We all make mistakes, I accept that people change and can be trusted to not repeat past mistakes.  That being said, I believe that full disclosure of past mistakes is the right thing to do.

Ven. Dharmasar Thero has previously used these internet aliases:

Upāsaka Buddha Vaṃsa:
David Bruce Hughes
Buddha Dave
Gaurahari Dasanudas Babaji
Ven. Nyanasara Thero
And now as "Ven. Dharmasar Thero"

(by the way, I thought that only ordained monks used the title "Venerable" ... is this person still a monk?)

anyways, some info here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=24189&start=40#p347612
http://dbhexposed.blogspot.ca


If this post is out of line in any way, please delete it, with my apologies.

Peace,

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 4:28 PM as a reply to chris mc.
Chris MC

I appreciate follow-up like yours, too. 


I agree we all have pasts and I don't know anyone perfect (starting with the ol' chica in the mirror).

From my perspective one who claims this sort of letting go is probably unperturbed (akkumpam, unshakable) and without need to defend or insult. I take up the fetter model so that's the frame I use for framing this practice en progress (a moi), but I never know how another person evaluates themselves.

Frankly, if a person isn't recruiting followers and harming I find it's okay to let people self-identify (their own actions will either abate or defuse or bear consequences of their own actions, like anyone else)

And I still appreciate you raising the point other identitieshere. It goes with the terrain of the precepts and it's very natural to test people who make these declarations. I think many many of us would ask the same of someone stating they were one of the world's fastest runners: we'd investigate. [1]

One who has complete insight (understanding from direct experience) probably anticipates this, knows their life, and understands their past and the inquiry. Perhaps the OP has a reply.

And further, it's useful to spend time in the actual company of a possible teacher, their physical company, day in and day out. Anyone can write a tidy book and fluff up for skype, edit a video. Whereas actual life day in and day out is telling. This is healthy investigation.



Even in-person if there is "gains" motivation ("I want this from the teacher") and the teacher fosters a person's wanting like a knowledge broker, then there will be gain-loss problems. So a teaching is really taken up well for oneself. When I contacted Daniel here year's ago, he was caring but immediately punted me back to myself and the forum to work on my mind for myself with peers (including him). Great.


_____
Jenny, 
Thanks also for sharing your practice insights. 




[1] I mean, in the Theravadan version of Buddhism the first person approached by the man claiming to be a buddha just walked away from him. So, Chris, I think your post and posts like them that pair with declarations are par, natural and for the betterment of any practice.  besides if it's a public assertion, then there is some need for public engagment and so this is part of that engagment. Thank you.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 8:42 PM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Hi Jenny, congratulations are in order. I don't really follow any model. It seems to me that any conceptual model or fixed frame of reference is limiting and ultimately superficial, no matter how grand it may sound on paper. From my POV, nibbāna is the unknown, even the unknowable.

Don't follow any model? As in didn't follow any tradition? Had no framework? Had no path? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Good one!

You come out of the blue onto a forum that is about open disclosure of attainments backed by phenomenological description to thank Daniel Ingram but then decline to clarify whether it is Daniel Ingram's model of attainment you mean.

And then when asked, you say, um, never mind--"I have no model. Models are superficial."

Well, smells like something other than roses, then.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 9:06 PM as a reply to Jenny.
Jenny, all I can say is, in any discussion, ad hominem is the loser's argument of last resort.

To all: I was working on a full disclosure of the incidents discussed in the allegations. But if this discussion is going to turn ugly, with straw-man and ad hominem attacks, that would be as egregiously indicative of evil intent as the linked discussion on dhammawheel where none of the participants even bothered to contact me and get my input.

To get this kind of negativity, I must be saying something extremely threatening to small minds.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 8:54 PM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Fourth path, when it is real, is much more dramatic than stream entry.

Jenny

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 9:03 PM as a reply to MangaDesuYo.
No, I never used noting much. 

My journal is on here under "Jen Pearly's Practice Journal." Or the initial period of stream entry is.

Subsequently, I kept my practice journal in a private space.

I'm currently in the process of setting up two journals:
  • My Year of Awakening journal, which covers second path to fourth, the past year
  • My post-awakening journal, which is ongoing as I embark on Dzogchen and magickal practices

These will not be housed on the DhO. When I have time to finish transfering my files to my own site, I'll post a link here.

Briefly, my methods were 
  • Thai Forest up through stream entry
  • Then basically Ingram, but not noting, through third
  • Then Indo-Tibetan Essence Tradition Mahamudra to reach what that tradition calls Awakened Wisdom, which lists what Daniel lists for fourth almost identically
Many here fail to realize that Daniel was greatly influenced by Mahamudra/Dzogchen in his own path from third to fourth.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 9:23 PM as a reply to Dharmasar.
I taught college rhetoric for a decade. So nope. No ad hominem here. Also was the one who suggested and penned the DhO rule against ad hominem.

Nice try. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 9:41 PM as a reply to Jenny.
Jenny:
I taught college rhetoric for a decade. So nope. No ad hominem here. Also was the one who suggested and penned the DhO rule against ad hominem.

Nice try. 

It was indeed not an ad hominem. However I'll note you also penned this rule:

No taunting, mocking, or intimidation of an individual or a group on the basis of [...] spiritual practice.

This certainly sounds like taunting/mocking on the basis of spiritual practice to me:

Don't follow any model? As in didn't follow any tradition? Had no framework? Had no path? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Good one!

It's certainly not polite in any case. To quote the home page again:

When in doubt, ask, "Is this helpful and conducive to clarity, wisdom, and the alleviation of suffering?"

===

That being said, to Ven. Dharmasar Thero: I do find criticism (in a skillful manner) to be fair game. You did seem to be contradicting yourself here so I do find the content of Jenny's comment relevant:

Ven. Dharmasar Thero:
Jenny:
Ven. Dharmasar Thero:
It has happened: at age 68, after many years of spiritual research, discipline and practice, I attained to Arahant. I want to acknowledge Daniel's insights and experiences, since mine were and are very similar, tending to validate his model. [...] I should mention that for a long time I had doubts about my 1984 experience, until my studies convinced me that it was Stream Entry.
I'm curious whether those changes are part of what you are calling fourth path, or whether you mean by a different model than MCTB.
I don't really follow any model. It seems to me that any conceptual model or fixed frame of reference is limiting and ultimately superficial, no matter how grand it may sound on paper.

The terms "Arahant" and "Stream Entry" clearly refer to some model or other. To open with that and then claim you don't follow any model is disingenuous.

Regards,
Claudiu, Moderator

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 9:42 PM as a reply to Jenny.
Back when Tommy M used to be a participant and mod here, this site was about keeping it real.

It was about down-to-earth discussion of attainments backed by disclosure of method, model, and phenomenological detail.

I would urge the members here to be discerning, discriminating, accountable, and demanding of accountability.

Thanks,
Jenny

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 9:51 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Dear Claudio,

I'm in no violation of any DhO rule. I have the right to laugh at what is funny. HAHAHAHA!

What is in question here is whether this person has a "spiritual practice" to even make fun of. You can't make fun of what doesn't exist. He said he has no model or framework. Got it?

Venerable issues "small minded" and "evil intent."

My work is done here. And I stand by it.
When in doubt, ask, "Is this helpful and conducive to clarity, wisdom, and the alleviation of suffering?"
It absolutely is. Precisely so.

Jenny

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 10:33 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
At this point I don't follow any model. That would contradict the non-conceptual nature of Nibbāna. To try to put Nibbāna in a frame is ludicrous. It is ultimate freedom. This describes my realization perfectly:
"One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world'." — Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta

Leading up to this experience, I certainly followed some frameworks: bhakti, theravāda, tantra etc. However I practiced methods as needed, switching when appropriate, or even simultaneously. I was committed to them but not trapped in any of them. 

But now, after my realization, none of those frameworks seem appropriate. In the Sutta Nipāta we find these profound verses:
“There is no measure of the one who has come to rest. There is nothing by which they can speak of him. When everything has been completely removed, all the pathways for speech are also completely removed.” — Upasīvamāṇavapucchā (Sn 1074)
There is nothing we can say about Nibbāna, except perhaps what it is not. And it is certainly not confined to any particular framework of meaning or practice. Neither is one who realizes it. One who realizes Nibbāna is untraceable, even by Brahmā, because he is outside all frames of reference. Think about how outrageous and revolutionary the Buddha must have seemed to his contemporaries. For a prince to become a Buddha, beyond all designations, was impossible for them to conceive. 

Thus to demand that someone who has realized Nibbāna put himself into some framework or other is a trap. It is a trap for the inquirer, because it puts non-conceptual Nibbāna out of their reach. And it is a trap for the one who is being inquired about, because if he accepts some designation, that would be equivalent to admitting that he is still in saṃsāra; and if he refuses to accept any designation, then small-minded people who do not understand the signless nature of Nibbāna [see Animitto Sutta] can criticize him on the basis of that refusal. 

So for someone to insist that I identify myself with one framework or another is like being asked, "Do you still beat your wife?" Any answer can be criticized. It's a trick question, designed to trip up the person being interrogated. From my point of view, such a trick question shows hidden evil intent, because it opens me up to criticism whichever way I respond. And that is exactly what has happened. Until this issue is resolved, there is no point for me to respond to any of the other allegations which have been made, because there is every certainty that whatever I say would be unfairly misused.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 11:48 PM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Ven. Dharmasar Thero:

Exactly. I can feel the chakras' functions as energy flows in the body itself. Maybe you could say they are the anatomy of the subtle body. Anyway they seem to be vortexes of particular kinds of energy and centers of specific bodily functions with different vibratory frequencies. The omission of chakras from the Buddha's teaching is hard for me to understand. I don't see, for example, how anyone could reach attainments without having fully opened the lower chakras and the heart. 
Well apparently you don't have to understand all the processes at a conscious level to obtain improvements in them anyway.  The yoga traditions tend to spend a lot of brain power on the chakra and subtle body concepts.  Whereas the Buddhist concentrate more on the mind and seem to suggest that various strange sensations (that sometimes feel like chakra stuff) should not be concentrated on lest it become a distraction.  But personally, I think each could learn from the other.  Personally I suspect that you must have all chakras opened and full kundalini type thing like the yogic traditions describe must occur for what Buddhists call 4th path to occur.  But I think the two groups concentrate on different aspects of the process, one concentrates on the mind and one on the body. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/15/15 11:58 PM as a reply to Jenny.
Don't follow any model? As in didn't follow any tradition? Had no framework? Had no path? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Good one!

You come out of the blue onto a forum that is about open disclosure of attainments backed by phenomenological description to thank Daniel Ingram but then decline to clarify whether it is Daniel Ingram's model of attainment you mean.

And then when asked, you say, um, never mind--"I have no model. Models are superficial."

Well, smells like something other than roses, then.


This is all very intense, no?

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 12:10 AM as a reply to Noah.
Hi Noah, 

Yeah. Seems way overboard to me too. Especially since:
"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk might say, 'Although the signless has been developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well-undertaken by me as my awareness-release, still my consciousness follows the drift of signs.' He should be told, 'Don't say that. You shouldn't speak in that way. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One, for it's not right to misrepresent the Blessed One, and the Blessed One wouldn't say that. It's impossible, there is no way that — when the signless has been developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well-undertaken as an awareness-release — consciousness would follow the drift of signs. That possibility doesn't exist, for this is the escape from all signs: the signless as an awareness-release.' — Nissaraniya Sutta

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 12:20 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
[quote=Eva M Nie

But personally, I think each could learn from the other.  Personally I suspect that you must have all chakras opened and full kundalini type thing like the yogic traditions describe must occur for what Buddhists call 4th path to occur.  But I think the two groups concentrate on different aspects of the process, one concentrates on the mind and one on the body. ]
Good point. That's why I work with the chakras and adopt appropriate methods to open each one. But although the Buddhist tradition seems to concentrate more on mind, we also encounter statements like this:
"In the same way, when anyone has developed & pursued mindfulness immersed in the body, then whichever of the six higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening." — Kayagata-sati Sutta

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 12:36 AM as a reply to Noah.
Noah S:
Don't follow any model? As in didn't follow any tradition? Had no framework? Had no path? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Good one!

This is all very intense, no?
I am not against questioning and being skeptical but there are other ways that are more clearly within board guidelines.  As for the specific stated rational for the skepticism, I also disagree that lack of apparent following of specific models precludes awakening to any particular level (although sounds more like he is saying he doesn't take on any particular model as his identity or gospel, not that he has not used any of those tools from those models).  IMO, the models are not the territory, they are just tools that are (hopefully) useful but not required, they are methods that (hopefully) work for a lot of people but they are not the only way.

I would not discount someone just on that they did not follow any of the models accepted here on this board. After all, each model had to be developed by someone who did not have the model already in place.  Someone may come on here and sound a bit grandious and since I don't know that person, I can't really say for sure if it is justified or not but although curious, I don't really need to know.  Either way, I can listen to that person's words, think about them, and decide over time if those words and ones in the future can add to my knowledge base or not, be that person a homeless drug addict or the Dalai Lama, I can consider the words on their own merit.  If you are not a follower then you don't have to worry as much about being lead astray.  As well if a person comes on here and sounds mean and not following the posting rules, then the merit of those specific words might also be questioned with skepicism. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 1:13 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
[quote=Eva M Nie

After all, each model had to be developed by someone who did not have the model already in place. ]
Thanks Eva, that's the clincher. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 2:07 AM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Congratulations Jenny! emoticon Hopefuly you will confirm the attainment beyond doubt. emoticon

A question to both Jenny And Ven. Dharmasar Thero:

I've read several times arahants saying things like "Nothing remains hidden", or the above sutta quote "illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before". Is this just regarding the dharma 4 Noble Truths? Or what else is meant here?

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 2:28 AM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Dharmasar:
Hi Noah, 

Yeah. Seems way overboard to me too. Especially since:
"Meow' — Nissaaniya Sutta
Hey meow, did someone just say meow?

Psi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXPeLctgvQI

Sometimes I just want to be inappropriate.  

It is a test, if I hit the submit button and this posts, I know I am not fully enlightened, I am going to test myself, right meow.  Testing, testing...

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 3:16 AM as a reply to chris mc.
Hej Chris,

Great that you dug that up. Earlier I checked out his youtube channel and in the very video where he announces his "Arahantship" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zuciahqmgk), he takes some time to explain to his listeners that one should never criticize a realized being like him, and that in fact everybody that has criticized him in the past has by now died of something terrible.

So you might be in some trouble emoticon

Anyway, having seen that I had filed him away as "possibly realized, but delusional", but now having read your links I guess I will file him as "possibly realized, but also probably a delusional psychopath" emoticon

So either:
1. He used to be a delusional psychopath, and now got an actual realization.
2. He is simply a delusional psychopath who learned a new enlightenment lingo and is trying to lure in new victims. 

Someone posted the Saints or Psychopaths checklist here some time ago. Would be interesting to measure him along that list. 

(victimising almost all of your past students does not bode well to make it to the Saint section though) 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 2:32 AM as a reply to Blue Jay.
Blue Jay,

To me, "illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before" refers to the experience that Nibbāna is the unknown/unknowable. That's the reason it doesn't fit within any framework. Frameworks are semantic constructions, i.e. saṅkhārā, and Nibbāna is the unconditioned. So whatever we can say about Nibbāna is inadequate; it is simply ineffeable. Anything that is known, or that can be known or described with words cannot be Nibbāna:
Whatever brahmans & contemplatives describe purity
        in terms of views & learning,
        in terms of precepts & practices,
        in terms of manifold ways:
none of them, living there in that way, I tell you, have crossed over birth & aging.
— Nanda-manava-puccha (Sn 5.7)
So just like Nibbāna itself, one who has realized it also remains inscrutable, indescribable and untraceable. 
Ajita:
Discernment & mindfulness, name & form, dear sir:
Tell me, when asked this, where are they brought to a halt?
The Buddha:
This question you've asked, Ajita, I'll answer it for you —
where name & form are brought to a halt withouttrace:
With the cessation of consciousness they're brought to a halt.
— Ajita-manava-puccha (Sn 5.1)
Nama-and-form (nāma-rūpa) are required for becoming. When one sees clearly that name-and-form apply only to becoming and non-becoming, then nothing can be hidden by the ignorance of mistaking impermanent/unsatisfactory/not-self conditioned being for actual Being (Nibbāna again).

Words are inadequate to describe these insights. One who has the experience can recognize what these words refer to; others are mystified and left groping. Maybe they cling to some framework describing the path, and that's alright; the path will lead them to this insight. But:

"The one who says it's impossible should not interrupt the one who is doing it." — Old Chinese saying

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 2:54 AM as a reply to Jenny.
C'mon, this thread is really fun:
Random Guy draws attention to him by claiming 4th path, then says he doesn't follow any model or framework, then quotes lots of things from a certain tradition to corroborate his statement.
Let's move it to the humour section.

btw I like how your comments lately are spot on in spotting bullshit.
The problem is, maybe they're talking with a background training in Zen pedagogy in which case unhelpful jabbering is considered skillful.
So IMO we should ban that sort of rhetoric because it's going on my nerves. People can found their own forum with guidelines such as "Clear discourse and spot-on statements are forbidden, you're welcome if you sound lots of mystical and somehow wise or something"
(this post is so not helpful. But then, this entire thread should be in the humour section, right?)

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 3:03 AM as a reply to Oochdd.
Oochdd:
Hej Chris,

Great that you dug that up. Earlier I checked out his youtube channel and in the very video where he announces his "Arahantship" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zuciahqmgk), he takes some time to explain to his listeners that one should never criticize a realized being like him, and that in fact everybody that has criticized him in the past has by now died of something terrible.

I found that also, here's exactly the content of the screen shot (from https://dharmasar.wordpress.com/ -- which is the same video that Oochdd cites), at 16:28 into the video:

"The Dharmasar Solution

My Lion's Roar

Fair Warning
  • I am an Enlightened Being (Arahant).
  • Enlightened Beings are due a certain respect.
  • I looked up people who disrespected me.
  • All of them are either missing, dead, or insane.
  • Karma is real. Be careful."
(Emphasis as in the original)

Rather surprising, even shocking. I read Bill Hamilton's book for the first time recently. Am thinking now to re-read it again soon.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 3:00 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Right. It's beyond humor into the realm of the genuinely absurd. Here is a forum that is supposed to be a serious, or at least understanding, discussion of alternate views on Buddhist attainments. Yet the venomous acidity found here would be more apropos of Reddit. Haven't you heard of the precept of renouncing harsh speech? Anyway I have better things to do than debate things that are, in any case, totally subjective and unverifiable. Keep your sarcasm to yourselves, I do not accept it.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 3:18 AM as a reply to chris mc.
re: chris mc 9/15/15 10:12 AM as a reply to katysteger.

"(by the way, I thought that only ordained monks used the title "Venerable" ... is this person still a monk?)"

Lots of confusion surrounding titles. There are strictly observed rules in some traditions – some use 'Sayadaw' for 20+ years practice and study (it means basically 'teacher'); in some systems 'thera' means 10+ years since ordination ('majjhima' for 5-10 years; forgot the Pali for a novice); some use 'bante' for a senior monk (ordained earlier); s/t 'ajahn' or 'sayadaw' might imply being an abbot; etc.

'Bhikkhu' or 'Ven' seems to generally mean ordained. 'U' (Burma) just means something like 'mister', asdistinct from Sayadaw or so.

Some, like Ven. Sujato, are casualabout it (see a discussion thread about this at SuttaCentral). Sobeing strict about such in general can seem picky.

However, I, for one, get suspiciousabout individuals who flaunt multiple titles – worst case: 'Most Ven. Bante Sayadawgyi <name> Mahathera" – why would one find it necessary to claim all that? And those who go in that direction also tend to be s/w vague about their specific training, ordination and lineage. (That's not to say their teachings can't be worthwhile.) There's just something too Hollywood about it.

(The above doesn't pertain to the situation here in this thread, just the general topic of titles.)

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 3:18 AM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Dharmasar:
Right. It's beyond humor into the realm of the genuinely absurd. Here is a forum that is supposed to be a serious, or at least understanding, discussion of alternate views on Buddhist attainments. Yet the venomous acidity found here would be more apropos of Reddit. (1)Haven't you heard of the precept of renouncing harsh speech?(2)Anyway I have better things to do than debate things that are, in any case, totally subjective and unverifiable. (3)Keep your sarcasm to yourselves, I do not accept it.

(1) Oh yes Indeed, I have. Also there are rumours that some people use it as a weapon against others. I totally don't have a clue if this could be happening right now.
(2) Yeah, you totally haven't, hence this thread ; )
(3) Don't worry, I'm not gonna let go of this any time soon. You see, sarcasm is like the hallmark of the bread.

(If the thread didn't belong to the humour section before, it certainly does now)

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 3:26 AM as a reply to Oochdd.
Oochdd:
Hej Chris,

Great that you dug that up. Earlier I checked out his youtube channel and in the very video where he announces his "Arahantship" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zuciahqmgk), he takes some time to explain to his listeners that one should never criticize a realized being like him, and that in fact everybody that has criticized him in the past has by now died of something terrible.
Yes, he says something like this around the 15:57 mark, He looked up people who disrespected him and states they are now, Missing, dead, or insane.  

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 8:27 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
(Edited to get the music links straight)

btw: There is some nice music on that website (The Dharmasar Solution).

Scanning down (it's one of those wordpress pages that goes on forever) for "Bhairavi Viragini — Contemplative Buddhist Music"

The 1st couple of minutes s/w Caribbean -- could be Bachata (s/w fast rumba) dance music.

After that it's more like "Music from the Hearts of Space" (old time new-age era all-night music program on KPFA) with an Arabic-sounding lyric theme.

Then sitar/raga-like music, melody sounds like an electronic aud, becoming space music again...

-- last part and ending much like Robert Rich.

Nice 3 1/2 hour sample of Music From The Hearts Of Space,  with videos of mostly astronomy photos and collages:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9zkXbioex4

And if you're really into it, here's 4 hours of deep, deep space music less pop-music style) -- "ASTRAL PROJECTION MUSIC: Ambient Space Music for Deep Sleep Meditation".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZKW4nD-nvI

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 3:32 AM as a reply to Psi.
Psi:
Oochdd:
Hej Chris,

Great that you dug that up. Earlier I checked out his youtube channel and in the very video where he announces his "Arahantship" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zuciahqmgk), he takes some time to explain to his listeners that one should never criticize a realized being like him, and that in fact everybody that has criticized him in the past has by now died of something terrible.
Yes, he says something like this around the 15:57 mark, He looked up people who disrespected him and states they are now, Missing, dead, or insane.  
Well, it's obvious that they would be insane, just by virtue of disagreeing with him, right? In fact, I can right now feel how my sarcasm starts to trigger my schizophrenia potential. Damn it, I'm making so much bad Karma for myself in this thread, I should really stop now....

but...
wait a second...

ohh....

STARS! THERE! They're out to get me!!!!!

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 3:47 AM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Dharmasar:
 Here is a forum that is supposed to be a serious, or at least understanding, discussion of alternate views on Buddhist attainments.
Okay, let us be serious for the moment.

It seems that saying people that you have had discussions with before are either missing , dead , or insane comes across as harsh speech.

I do not recall that the Buddha left a wake of dead, missing, or insane with those that disrespected him.  

Psi

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 5:30 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Jenny:
Hi Jenny, congratulations are in order. I don't really follow any model. It seems to me that any conceptual model or fixed frame of reference is limiting and ultimately superficial, no matter how grand it may sound on paper. From my POV, nibbāna is the unknown, even the unknowable.

Don't follow any model? As in didn't follow any tradition? Had no framework? Had no path? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Good one!

You come out of the blue onto a forum that is about open disclosure of attainments backed by phenomenological description to thank Daniel Ingram but then decline to clarify whether it is Daniel Ingram's model of attainment you mean.

And then when asked, you say, um, never mind--"I have no model. Models are superficial."

Well, smells like something other than roses, then.
Jenny you seem to be misunderstanding what was written in reply to you. He replied to you in the present tense i.e. he is not currently following a model. You read that to mean that he never followed a model. Further down the reply that you quoted he wrote "I draw practices from many different traditions and teachers." so it could not be much clearer that he has used traditions and frameworks.

If you are interested in the phenomenological description (which I agree would be interesting) then why not ask in those terms ?

Something seems to have blinded your ability to read his reply. Maybe it was the reference to episode of Zen Comix ? I did not think he was stating or implying that you are the novice.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 7:01 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:
Oochdd:
Hej Chris,

Great that you dug that up. Earlier I checked out his youtube channel and in the very video where he announces his "Arahantship" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zuciahqmgk), he takes some time to explain to his listeners that one should never criticize a realized being like him, and that in fact everybody that has criticized him in the past has by now died of something terrible.

I found that also, here's exactly the content of the screen shot (from https://dharmasar.wordpress.com/ -- which is the same video that Oochdd cites), at 16:28 into the video:

"The Dharmasar Solution

My Lion's Roar

Fair Warning
  • I am an Enlightened Being (Arahant).
  • Enlightened Beings are due a certain respect.
  • I looked up people who disrespected me.
  • All of them are either missing, dead, or insane.
  • Karma is real. Be careful."
(Emphasis as in the original)

Rather surprising, even shocking. I read Bill Hamilton's book [Saints and Psycopaths] for the first time recently. Am thinking now to re-read it again soon.

It is surprising, and even shocking, yet Dharmasar is doing nothing other than passing the Buddha's warnings along.

Devaduta Sutta:
The Blessed One said, "Monks, it's as if there were two households with doors, and a man of good eyesight, standing there between them, would see people entering & leaving a house, wandering out & about. In the same way, I — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — see beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discern how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their actions: 'O, how these beings — [...] who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the realm of the hungry ghosts [...] have re-appeared in the animal womb [...] have re-appeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.' [link]

This occurs many time in the canon: the Potaliya Sutta, the Sekha-patipada Sutta, the Bhaya-bherava Sutta, Iti 58, etc... For the record, here is the fate of somebody who reviles noble ones, according to the Buddha:

Devada Sutta:
"Then the hell-wardens torture [the evil-doer] with what's called a five-fold imprisonment. They drive a red-hot iron stake through one hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through one foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the middle of his chest. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted. [...] Then the hell-wardens lay him down and slice him with axes. [...] "There comes a time when, ultimately, with the passing of a long stretch of time, the eastern gate of the Great Hell opens. He runs there, rushing quickly. As he runs there, rushing quickly, his outer skin burns, his inner skin burns, his flesh burns, his tendons burn, even his bones turn to smoke. [...] [link]

It goes on and on.

Essentially, the Buddha said, be warned - if you revile noble ones - which is anybody who is a stream enterer or above, or even a disciple - you will go to hell.

It's not that different from what Dharmasar is saying in his Lion's Roar, is it? This should be equally shocking coming from the Buddha and being passed on in the Pali canon from generation to generation for thosuands of years, as from Dharamsar saying it again just now. And if Dharmasar saying this is an indicator of psycopathy, then Buddha saying it must be an inidcator that the Buddha was a psycopath as well.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 7:37 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Jenny:
Well, smells like something other than roses, then.



Smells Like Teen Spirit  Conceit  up in here wafting in from various directions including this very post of mine.


Duh!         Duh! Duh!         Duh! Duh! Duh!     Duh!          Duh! Duh!         Duh! Duh! Duh!

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 7:32 AM as a reply to Mark.
Mark:
Jenny:
Hi Jenny, congratulations are in order. I don't really follow any model. It seems to me that any conceptual model or fixed frame of reference is limiting and ultimately superficial, no matter how grand it may sound on paper. From my POV, nibbāna is the unknown, even the unknowable.

Don't follow any model? As in didn't follow any tradition? Had no framework? Had no path? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Good one!

You come out of the blue onto a forum that is about open disclosure of attainments backed by phenomenological description to thank Daniel Ingram but then decline to clarify whether it is Daniel Ingram's model of attainment you mean.

And then when asked, you say, um, never mind--"I have no model. Models are superficial."

Well, smells like something other than roses, then.

[...]
If you are interested in the phenomenological description (which I agree would be interesting) then why not ask in those terms ?
[...]


Hey Dude, don't be stupid and read that again, that's exactly what Jenny did. He then purposefully evades the question, and she rightly calls out bullshit on that, upon which he turns to passive-aggressive Ad Hominem statements.

So, if it's still not obvious for anyone:
Here some random psychopath/delusional Bro/13-year old troll/... comes along and intends to use DhO as his own stage. He succeeds by getting positive feedback from Daniel Ingram himself. This is where his mission was basically complete.
As soon as some specific questions come up, he goes all "Nirvana is unknowable. By the way, I know it. Now shut up, small minds around me."

If you still can't see it, have a bread, then try again.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 8:17 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
bernd the broter:
Mark:
Jenny:
Hi Jenny, congratulations are in order. I don't really follow any model. It seems to me that any conceptual model or fixed frame of reference is limiting and ultimately superficial, no matter how grand it may sound on paper. From my POV, nibbāna is the unknown, even the unknowable.

Don't follow any model? As in didn't follow any tradition? Had no framework? Had no path? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Good one!

You come out of the blue onto a forum that is about open disclosure of attainments backed by phenomenological description to thank Daniel Ingram but then decline to clarify whether it is Daniel Ingram's model of attainment you mean.

And then when asked, you say, um, never mind--"I have no model. Models are superficial."

Well, smells like something other than roses, then.

[...]
If you are interested in the phenomenological description (which I agree would be interesting) then why not ask in those terms ?
[...]


Hey Dude, don't be stupid and read that again, that's exactly what Jenny did. He then purposefully evades the question, and she rightly calls out bullshit on that, upon which he turns to passive-aggressive Ad Hominem statements.

So, if it's still not obvious for anyone:
Here some random psychopath/delusional Bro/13-year old troll/... comes along and intends to use DhO as his own stage. He succeeds by getting positive feedback from Daniel Ingram himself. This is where his mission was basically complete.
As soon as some specific questions come up, he goes all "Nirvana is unknowable. By the way, I know it. Now shut up, small minds around me."

If you still can't see it, have a bread, then try again.

Jenny asked "I'm curious whether those changes are part of what you are calling fourth path, or whether you mean by a different model than MCTB." which he seems to have understood to imply he currently has a particular model.

You might interpret the question one way and of course you are not stupid. But other stupid people may not interpet things exactly as you do.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 8:22 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
Jenny:
Well, smells like something other than roses, then.



Smells Like Teen Spirit  Conceit  up in here wafting in from various directions including this very post of mine.


Duh!         Duh! Duh!         Duh! Duh! Duh!     Duh!          Duh! Duh!         Duh! Duh! Duh!


Thank you, Nick.  You have condensed any possible statement I can make surrounding this thread into the most essential, possible form.  I'm going to quote some of that sutta you linked here, just to suss out the point:

But a monk at peace,
fully unbound in himself



Having abandoned conceit[3] & illusion,
by what means would he go?
[4]
He isn't involved.

which is why he is
nowhere constrained.



For me, this would not be directed at any particular individual in any particular thread, ever.  It's a general marker point of in the distance, telling me the what direction I wish to be headed in with my own practice.  Once again, your "wafting in various directions" wording compresses this perfectly.

For all parties involved, notice whether the practices we undertake actually change the energy of the personality.  Sometimes the antithetical relationship with mushroom culture can be used as an excuse to avoid actually changing who you are.  I think it matters whether meditation or any other mind-hack actually makes you a cooler person to talk to.  If it doesn't, is it possible the change isn't as full-on as what might be assumed at first glance?

One of the specific aspects of the direction I mentioned above is the development of a deep carefreeness.  I expect this to make me an easygoing person.  I expect this good nature to become so thorough that it will be expressed everywhere, including in online communication.  For those practicing the dharma who have difficult personalities, it may be useful to question how interpersonal communication patterns, as influenced by deep psychodynamics, are, or are not, positively benefited from their practice.  

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 8:34 AM as a reply to Noah.

For me, this would not be directed at any particular individual in any particular thread, ever.  It's a general marker point of in the distance, telling me the what direction I wish to be headed in with my own practice.  Once again, your "wafting in various directions" wording compresses this perfectly.

For all parties involved, notice whether the practices we undertake actually change the energy of the personality.  Sometimes the antithetical relationship with mushroom culture can be used as an excuse to avoid actually changing who you are.  I think it matters whether meditation or any other mind-hack actually makes you a cooler person to talk to.  If it doesn't, is it possible the change isn't as full-on as what might be assumed at first glance?

One of the specific aspects of the direction I mentioned above is the development of a deep carefreeness.  I expect this to make me an easygoing person.  I expect this good nature to become so thorough that it will be expressed everywhere, including in online communication.  For those practicing the dharma who have difficult personalities, it may be useful to question how interpersonal communication patterns, as influenced by deep psychodynamics, are, or are not, positively benefited from their practice.  
+1

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 9:43 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
...It is surprising, and even shocking, yet Dharmasar is doing nothing other than passing the Buddha's warnings along.
...
Essentially, the Buddha said, be warned - if you revile noble ones - which is anybody who is a stream enterer or above, or
even a disciple - you will go to hell.

It's not that different from what Dharmasar is saying in his Lion's Roar, is it? This should be equally shocking coming from the Buddha and being passed on in the Pali canon from generation to generation for thosuands of years, as from Dharamsar saying it again just now.
And if Dharmasar saying this is an indicator of psycopathy, then Buddha saying it must be an indicator that the Buddha was a psycopath as well.

It's not clear your last conclusion there is intended as a logical exercise, or you would really believe that -- essentially that some sort of 'attainment' gives one equivalence to a Buddha.

That's why I would re-read Hamilton's book again, more closely, as stated above, in a sense of investigation.

The development of this thread reminds of the infamous one back in January-February of this year -- "It has happened' yet again? Then an individual of some repute an attainment claim (and I would say with some justification) along similar lines lost it -- equanimity, skill at response, restraint, civility....

Is this Buddha-like behavior? The "paths" can be abstracted out of tradition, and refined to basic qualities (via Western reductionistic mentality), and formulated into methodology, and pursued and mastered -- this is being well-established. Convenient to assert this is secular, pragmatic, whatever, rather than soteriological -- Western modernism finds it very convenient to do without the morality part (?)

That's something of a rant, but the second-class status of sila / virtue in so much (by all means not all) of the sport of path-attainment raises questions as to the chances of forming a solid tradition (IM historically-informed O).

Here's a bit I earlier chose not to post, but now the point needs to be made:
"Jenny, all I can say is, in any discussion, ad hominem is the loser's argument of last resort."
and
"To get this kind of negativity, I must be saying something extremely threatening to small minds."
Reactivity that reminds me of an attitude that came out in a discussion (melee) here back in Jan-Feb of this year.
"From my point of view, such a trick question shows hidden evil intent, because it opens me up to criticism whichever way I respond."
With vision and knowledge, beyond views and self pre-occupation, one might imagine more skillful ways of framing a response. It's disappointing, actually.

Do those responses reflect the behavior depicted in the Sutta cited?
"But a monk at peace,
fully unbound in himself

[...]
Having abandoned conceit & illusion,
by what means would he go?

He isn't involved.
[...]
[
but a sage doesn't enter a dispute that's arisen,]
which is why he is
nowhere constrained."


By the way, all that extensive hell-and-brimfire text rouses suspicions of post-EBT radaction, when mythological material was heaped on to magnify the Buddha's stature by monks and for audiences who were well out of reach of the historical presence of the teacher. Not an expert at that (EBT -- Early Buddhist Texts as in the book -- http://dhammaloka.org.au/files/pdf/authenticity.pdf -- and talks/workshops by Ven. Sujato and Brahmali) but think they're on to something.

Really now, don't we have an opportunity to steer this thing away from the course it's earlier incarnation took back last winter-of-discontent?

[Darn, saving this draft near completion punted with:
"502 Proxy Error
The proxy server received an invalid
response from an upstream server.
The proxy server could not handle the request
POST /web/guest/discussion.
Reason: Error reading from remote server
Apache Server at www.dharmaoverground.org Port 80"
...but the draft was save in the thread as such with little lose.]

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 9:18 AM as a reply to Noah.
Noah S:

For all parties involved, notice whether the practices we undertake actually change the energy of the personality.  Sometimes the antithetical relationship with mushroom culture can be used as an excuse to avoid actually changing who you are.  I think it matters whether meditation or any other mind-hack actually makes you a cooler person to talk to.  If it doesn't, is it possible the change isn't as full-on as what might be assumed at first glance?

One of the specific aspects of the direction I mentioned above is the development of a deep carefreeness.  I expect this to make me an easygoing person.  I expect this good nature to become so thorough that it will be expressed everywhere, including in online communication.  For those practicing the dharma who have difficult personalities, it may be useful to question how interpersonal communication patterns, as influenced by deep psychodynamics, are, or are not, positively benefited from their practice.  
I think it matters whether meditation or any other mind-hack makes you downright naive, stupid and ultimately self-destructive.
Seriously, what are you even up to? In the face of a (possibly dangerous) psychopath, trying to abuse DhO as his advertisement platform, you advocate practicing being nice to people? What about wisdom and compassion instead, using the wisdom part not to let yourself be bullshitted, and the compassion part not to be carefree?

Much of this thread is indeed a brilliant example of Mushroom culture. Why is Jenny the only one to spot it? I don't get it.

I'll close by quoting Bhante Sujato completely out of context "I don't practice the Dhamma to become stupid."

Edit: It just occurred to me that Jenny's posts more and more exhibit the clarity and energy of Daniel's beloved (by me, at least) rants in MCTB1. Maybe it rubs off on you if you work with him for long enough emoticon (Although there seems to be the additional element of laughter.)

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/16/15 9:20 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
I think it matters whether meditation or any other mind-hack makes you downright naive, stupid and ultimately self-destructive.
Seriously, what are you even up to? In the face of a (possibly dangerous) psychopath, trying to abuse DhO as his advertisement platform, you advocate practicing being nice to people? What about wisdom and compassion instead, using the wisdom part not to let yourself be bullshitted, and the compassion part not to be carefree?

Much of this thread is indeed a brilliant example of Mushroom culture. Why is Jenny the only one to spot it? I don't get it.

I'll close by quoting Bhante Sujato completely out of context "I don't practice the Dhamma to become stupid."


I hear ya, and see what your saying.  Everyone needs to move in the direction of balance.  So for some, discernment needs to be especially good here so as to not be sucked into anything negative.  But also, my point about the relative intensity of all sides of the debate here would protect and guard one from getting sucked into naive belief in any direction.  Its just the drama, the fireworks, the hoo-haa of it all that I am wishing to point out.  I believe that it is possible to be carefree (not at all involved with the fireworks) while also quietly practicing discernment, intelligence, and force when necessary.  I know that I, for one, am solid; meaning, not getting sucked into anything in this thread, including any claims or warnings about karma.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 12:03 AM as a reply to Noah.
Noah S:
I think it matters whether meditation or any other mind-hack makes you downright naive, stupid and ultimately self-destructive.
Seriously, what are you even up to? In the face of a (possibly dangerous) psychopath, trying to abuse DhO as his advertisement platform, you advocate practicing being nice to people? What about wisdom and compassion instead, using the wisdom part not to let yourself be bullshitted, and the compassion part not to be carefree?

Much of this thread is indeed a brilliant example of Mushroom culture. Why is Jenny the only one to spot it? I don't get it.

I'll close by quoting Bhante Sujato completely out of context "I don't practice the Dhamma to become stupid."


I hear ya, and see what your saying.  Everyone needs to move in the direction of balance.  So for some, discernment needs to be especially good here so as to not be sucked into anything negative.  But also, my point about the relative intensity of all sides of the debate here would protect and guard one from getting sucked into naive belief in any direction.  Its just the drama, the fireworks, the hoo-haa of it all that I am wishing to point out.  I believe that it is possible to be carefree (not at all involved with the fireworks) while also quietly practicing discernment, intelligence, and force when necessary.  I know that I, for one, am solid; meaning, not getting sucked into anything in this thread, including any claims or warnings about karma.
Maybe it's just me but I failed to be in terror of my life due to any posts or links on this thread.  Hence I saw no reason to get all upset.  A lot of people come on here and make claims.  I dont know any of them personally.  Logic suggests that probably at least some of them are either lieing or deluding themselves.  Quite possibly even some of those that are not currently having their validity challenged may not be as they claim but just are better at telling stories and/or covering their tracks.  The best criminals are also the hardest to catch.  Heck, maybe even I am so sneaky that I am deluding myself expertly!  But since i don't know anyone personally (other than myself), and it's rare that we have as much data as we did this time, I just don't find it useful to worry about it too much.  I don't plan to follow anyone blindly no matter whom they claim to be.  (But I do appreciate people keeping an eye out and giving relevant information and links like on this thread on others in the past, so thank you for that.)   

I've heard stats that the average person lies seven times a day!  (not sure how they came up with that number but that's a lot!)  I don't expect here to be THAT much different than the rest of the world. It's not that I am naive, I just don't see the behavior of others as an excuse for myself to also have 'unskillful' behavior or to break the posting rules.  And if the goal is to point out someone else's bad behavior, wouldn't bad behavior on my part just further confuse and distract the issue?  Now we will have 2 people behaving badly instead of just one, how does that help anything?  People are going to come on here and stir up trouble or angst from time to time, that is the same as in any board, but I don't see any advantage to myself getting sucked into the drama emotionally and getting overly reactive about it.   

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 3:50 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva M Nie:
Noah S:
I think it matters whether meditation or any other mind-hack makes you downright naive, stupid and ultimately self-destructive.
Seriously, what are you even up to? In the face of a (possibly dangerous) psychopath, trying to abuse DhO as his advertisement platform, you advocate practicing being nice to people? What about wisdom and compassion instead, using the wisdom part not to let yourself be bullshitted, and the compassion part not to be carefree?

Much of this thread is indeed a brilliant example of Mushroom culture. Why is Jenny the only one to spot it? I don't get it.

I'll close by quoting Bhante Sujato completely out of context "I don't practice the Dhamma to become stupid."


I hear ya, and see what your saying.  Everyone needs to move in the direction of balance.  So for some, discernment needs to be especially good here so as to not be sucked into anything negative.  But also, my point about the relative intensity of all sides of the debate here would protect and guard one from getting sucked into naive belief in any direction.  Its just the drama, the fireworks, the hoo-haa of it all that I am wishing to point out.  I believe that it is possible to be carefree (not at all involved with the fireworks) while also quietly practicing discernment, intelligence, and force when necessary.  I know that I, for one, am solid; meaning, not getting sucked into anything in this thread, including any claims or warnings about karma.
Maybe it's just me but I failed to be in terror of my life due to any posts or links on this thread.  Hence I saw no reason to get all upset.  A lot of people come on here and make claims.  I dont know any of them personally.  Logic suggests that probably at least some of them are either lieing or deluding themselves.  Quite possibly even some of those that are not currently having their validity challenged may not be as they claim but just are better at telling stories and/or covering their tracks.  The best criminals are also the hardest to catch.  Heck, maybe even I am so sneaky that I am deluding myself expertly!  But since i don't know anyone personally (other than myself), and it's rare that we have as much data as we did this time, I just don't find it useful to worry about it too much.  I don't plan to follow anyone blindly no matter whom they claim to be.  (But I do appreciate people keeping an eye out and giving relevant information and links like on this thread on others in the past, so thank you for that.)   

I've heard stats that the average person lies seven times a day!  (not sure how they came up with that number but that's a lot!)  I don't expect here to be THAT much different than the rest of the world. It's not that I am naive, I just don't see the behavior of others as an excuse for myself to also have 'unskillful' behavior or to break the posting rules.  And if the goal is to point out someone else's bad behavior, wouldn't bad behavior on my part just further confuse and distract the issue?  Now we will have 2 people behaving badly instead of just one, how does that help anything?  People are going to come on here and stir up trouble or angst from time to time, that is the same as in any board, but I don't see any advantage to myself getting sucked into the drama emotionally and getting overly reactive about it.   

Eva you are making good sense to me. Someone who calmly and rationally explains why someone else is not to be trusted is far more persausive than someone using poor reasoning or poor communication skills.

I often see a correlation between overreaction and projection of personal issues. If someone overreacts then it is often saying more about themselves than the person they are reacting to.

It is a shame the OP was pushed to abandon the thread. It would be fascinating to know if his phenomenological experience is similar to other "arahants" as it could open minds to the possibility that "4th path" without practises beyond meditation can be just as much a problem as a solution. I suspect there are people posting in this thread that don't want to imagine or hear that.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 5:46 AM as a reply to Mark.
Mark:
It is a shame the OP was pushed to abandon the thread. It would be fascinating to know if his phenomenological experience is similar to other "arahants" as it could open minds to the possibility that "4th path" without practises beyond meditation can be just as much a problem as a solution. I suspect there are people posting in this thread that don't want to imagine or hear that.
Yes, I might indeed be wrong. Maybe this guy is sincere and it's all a great misunderstanding.
So, if you're really think, it would be fascinating to know more about his experience, then this is what you should do:
-Contact him on some of his other online profiles. According to Dharmasar's statements in this thread, this is possible. After all, he regretted to be in situations
Dharmasar:
where none of the participants even bothered to contact me and get my input.

-Tell him that you think he was treated unfairly here, and you're still interested in his experience.
-Have conversation with him and ask him all you're interested in.

This will surely turn out well because after all the guy's an Arahant, has complete understanding of the Buddha's teaching, and is compassionate enough to go out and share his experiences with others. So this should be no problem at all, right?

Dharmasar:
I have better things to do than debate things that are, in any case, totally subjective and unverifiable

Well, or maybe it is. Your favourite bread wouldn't know, lol.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 7:57 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
...:

This will surely turn out well because after all the guy's an Arahant, has complete understanding of the Buddha's teaching, and is compassionate enough to go out and share his experiences with others. So this should be no problem at all, right?
...

And perhaps read or re-read William Hamilton's Saints and Psychopaths (it's out there on the internet as PDF*). It can't hurt to be discerning and watchful.

* http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-berlin.de/downloads/saints-and-psychopaths.pdf

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 8:13 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
bernd the broter:
Mark:
It is a shame the OP was pushed to abandon the thread. It would be fascinating to know if his phenomenological experience is similar to other "arahants" as it could open minds to the possibility that "4th path" without practises beyond meditation can be just as much a problem as a solution. I suspect there are people posting in this thread that don't want to imagine or hear that.
Yes, I might indeed be wrong. Maybe this guy is sincere and it's all a great misunderstanding.
So, if you're really think, it would be fascinating to know more about his experience, then this is what you should do:
-Contact him on some of his other online profiles. According to Dharmasar's statements in this thread, this is possible. After all, he regretted to be in situations
Dharmasar:
where none of the participants even bothered to contact me and get my input.

-Tell him that you think he was treated unfairly here, and you're still interested in his experience.
-Have conversation with him and ask him all you're interested in.

This will surely turn out well because after all the guy's an Arahant, has complete understanding of the Buddha's teaching, and is compassionate enough to go out and share his experiences with others. So this should be no problem at all, right?

Dharmasar:
I have better things to do than debate things that are, in any case, totally subjective and unverifiable

Well, or maybe it is. Your favourite bread wouldn't know, lol.
I really don't think you could be wrong, you decide who is stupid so you much be very clever.

I wonder why I was interested in seeing the conversation on this thread. Strangely I don't trust your advice.

Whether the person is sincere or not is part of your criteria for 4th path. But you seem to have decided to police the forum so anyone who does not show the traits you know to be 4th path will quickly leave. Great job, well done.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 8:28 AM as a reply to Mark.
Thank you, Mark. Jenny began policing this thread by demanding he reveal his model, and then responding with rude sarcasm when he said he now has none (although he had already given a series of descriptions of his practices prior to his breakthrough). This occurred well before there was any revelation about his threats on videos or about past accusations. Her response seems to have triggered childish nonsense and callous dismissal by others. Then, of course, the question of his integrity came up, which is valid, but by then the thread itself was useless, as the silliness had taken over. 

Jenny's dismissal of OP had nothing to do with whatever came out afterward regarding his character. It was all about his model. So anyone congratulating her for having "caught on" to him is short-changing the truth. I am making an issue of this because I am frustrated by threads that start out with potential and then deteriorate into violations of the code spelled out on the home page. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 8:39 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris, I have a problem with your calling out people claiming attainments for "reactivity," while what I see them doing is responding appropriately to outrageous rudeness. In fact, I would be more inclined to say that people claiming 4th path and then behaving rudely are not acting in accordance with what one would expect from someone with such an attainment. But really, there is ample documentation that some people with attainments have done some pretty unenlightened things. I thoroughly agree, then, that sila should be an integral part of one's practice. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 9:35 AM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Mark and Laurel, I suggest you both go back and read that thread again.
Here's what he actually claims:
-He has done tons of practices
-He has mastered those
-Therefore he has even more mastery than is possible by the Buddha's teaching alone
(-Some story about how he got a breakthrough by talking to someone. Notice how this fits the picture if you assume that he's trying to recruit followers.)
-Never anything concrete. Never. Only some shallow phrases that I could have gathered with some hours of research without ever doing those practices.
We only know that to get stream entry he practiced some number of hours and that the experience was intense and oceanic for some time.
-Well, there's this one thing: "I feel complete." Who would be the audience this is aimed at?
Laurel Carrington:
Jenny's dismissal of OP had nothing to do with whatever came out afterward regarding his character. It was all about his model. So anyone congratulating her for having "caught on" to him is short-changing the truth.

You got it backwards: I'm congratulating her because she recognized his behaviour for what it is before those other revelations came up.


Laurel Carrington:

I am making an issue of this because I am frustrated by threads that start out with potential and then deteriorate into violations of the code spelled out on the home page.


The only code that is violated in this thread is
Is this even on the front page? not that your common psychopath next door would care:

Don't abuse DhO as your advertising stage.

If you still have doubt that this is happening, I urge you to look at this thread again, this time paying attention to some crucial, yet overlooked details:

Dharmasar:

It has happened: at age 68, after many years of spiritual research, discipline and practice, I attained to Arahant. I want to acknowledge Daniel's insights and experiences, since mine were and are very similar, tending to validate his model.

Ah, he has read MCTB, this is why he's here and we're lucky to profit from his insights, right?
Oh, wait, but then there's this:
Dharmasar:

It's a matter of focus, determination, and sifting through all the false teachings until you get the Dhamma Eye. I think it's perfectly possible for a reasonably intelligent person to get Stream Entry in 3-5 years. You want to develop a strategic overview of the Buddha's teaching gleaned from the Suttas; avoid the Commentaries and Abhidhamma, and people who tell you it's impossible; then practice, practice, practice.

So, it's obvious. This guy hasn't even read MCTB, or didn't care enough to adapt his usual narrative so it wouldn't be in complete opposition to what he claims in the second sentence of his opening post. His very first few sentences contain a blatant lie.
The only thing he has read from MCTB is "limited action model" and even about this I'm not sure. Notice how other than that, he doesn't reference MCTB or Daniel's other experiences at all throughout all his posts. Also he declines his invitation to lunch, without even reciprocating to maybe skype with him or something.

Mark:

I really don't think you could be wrong, you decide who is stupid so you much be very clever.

Hey Dude, I really didn't want to hurt you, only point out that I think you're being fooled. So let me replace "Don't be stupid" with "Don't be fooled".

Mark:

I wonder why I was interested in seeing the conversation on this thread. Strangely I don't trust your advice.

Why not? Is it bad advice? How would you like it if Laurel approved of it?

Mark:

Whether the person is sincere or not is part of your criteria for 4th path. But you seem to have decided to police the forum so anyone who does not show the traits you know to be 4th path will quickly leave. Great job, well done.

Looks like an inadvertent strawman argument. I never talked about 4th path criteria. Also it doesn't matter. If this guy is trying to fool us, then we shouldn't be listening to him, regardless of his level of insight.
Since he's lying to us in his 2nd sentence, I would hope that we can agree that this is indeed what he is doing.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 9:42 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
bernd the broter:
If you still have doubt that this [Dharmasar advertising on the DhO] is happening, I urge you to look at this thread again, this time paying attention to some crucial, yet overlooked details:
Dharmasar:
It has happened: at age 68, after many years of spiritual research, discipline and practice, I attained to Arahant. I want to acknowledge Daniel's insights and experiences, since mine were and are very similar, tending to validate his model.

Ah, he has read MCTB, this is why he's here and we're lucky to profit from his insights, right?
Oh, wait, but then there's this:
Dharmasar:
It's a matter of focus, determination, and sifting through all the false teachings until you get the Dhamma Eye. I think it's perfectly possible for a reasonably intelligent person to get Stream Entry in 3-5 years. You want to develop a strategic overview of the Buddha's teaching gleaned from the Suttas; avoid the Commentaries and Abhidhamma, and people who tell you it's impossible; then practice, practice, practice.

So, it's obvious. This guy hasn't even read MCTB, or didn't care enough to adapt his usual narrative so it wouldn't be in complete opposition to what he claims in the second sentence of his opening post. His very first few sentences contain a blatant lie.

Haha, that's very well-spotted. Thanks for pointing it out so clearly. Particularly this part also:
bernd the broter:
-Well, there's this one thing: "I feel complete." Who would be the audience this is aimed at?

I do appreciate such patient and detail-oriented deconstruction, especially when not accompanied by derision (it makes it far more effective).

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 10:04 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Moving forward, then, the question I would like to ask has to do with eclecticism, which OP advocates. Daniel has provided a powerful model, one that I myself followed (MCTB 1) with results for which I am always deeply grateful. OP, on the other hand, worked with a variety of traditions, and spoke at length about chakras in this thread, a discussion that unfortunately got derailed. I do not necessarily accept that he lied about having read MCTB, by the way; I think he may have been inspired by it, but took from it what he may have found valuable and didn't bother with the rest. That has been his practice all along. I read him as having felt he exhausted several lines of inquiry, and claiming that his own attainments resulted from his willingness to take responsibility for his own path and mixing things up.

It is these issues that I found interesting, which is why I am frustrated that the thread got derailed (although there are obvious reasons for caution about OP). On the whole, I think it is unnecessary and even counterproductive to bounce around to the extent that he has, and yet there may be real value in expanding one's practice, especially after MCTB 4th path. But there are also people on here who don't use the MCTB model at all, and I see no reason for running them off.

A bit of a mishmash here, I'm afraid, but I have to leave off until later.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 10:20 AM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Laurel Carrington:
 Her response seems to have triggered childish nonsense and callous dismissal by others. Then, of course, the question of his integrity came up, which is valid, but by then the thread itself was useless, as the silliness had taken over. 
 
@ Laurel, and all

My childish response was created independently within the mind, regardless of what anyone said, and it has a deeper level of meaning, which I should explain, and why.

The Op has a video enititled My Lion's Roar, which I interpreted as a Cat's Meow.

Why?  Because he states that he has a solution to Nibbana, yet implies that if anyone criticizes him they will turn up missing, become insane, or die.  That is more in lines with a curse, or Black Magic, or superstition, all that falls away at Stream Entry.  Though , to say that someone may turn up missing, become insane , or die, can plant little unconscious seeds in an untrained mind, and cause who knows wht to happen.  Very dangerous!!

So yes, I was mirroring childishness, to make a point.  Sometimes I forget that most people will only read into the surface level and not catch my inner meanings at the deeper level.  For that I apologize.

Mark
It is a shame the OP was pushed to abandon the thread. It would be fascinating to know if his phenomenological experience is similar to other "arahants" as it could open minds to the possibility that "4th path" without practises beyond meditation can be just as much a problem as a solution. I suspect there are people posting in this thread that don't want to imagine or hear that.

@Mark, Sorry if we chased away possible test subject for your spiritual study, or whatever it is you had in mind. 

@ Dharamasar Thero, if you want , you could respond, to explain, about the death and insanity part of your internet video,

Okay, gotta go , meow...

Psi

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 10:33 AM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Hi,

I visited the village in which my tai chi trained and was raised for several years. There were sparring rooms with thick straw matts on which males and females fiercely sparred. Of to the side there were those of us going through techniques slowly, others doing a playful push hands. There are other rooms in that complex: an eating place, a noddle-soup pot place, places for reading and study, sleeping places, trench latrine places, places for parents and villagers to come see what people are learning, bunk rooms-- etcetera-- a place where people live and develop over the years in their training together and in person. The complex is in the heart of a farming town so people and students see each other at various times of day and night.

So I think DhO is similar but we our "rooms" are limited to a verbal sphere until/unless we meet in-person. 
There's no game room here for sharades and hilarity.
There's no kitchen here for making something. There's no ability to really bring soup when someone's sick.
But it's still like a complex of many rooms or a pool with many places and quadrants. 

So sometimes I think and I trust (speculate) that if I lived near Laurel I speculate we'd appreciate each other's company and humor (I am speculating your conduct, Laurel, please excuse and I welcome your actual thoughts) around certain topics in particular, perhaps parents with illness, perhaps chronic illness. If I lived near Jenny I speculate she'd be a tremendous running/hiking partner (sorry  Jenny if you hate that stuff)-- she just has tremendous energy. I tune in a little to Nikolai's "LucasIamYourFather" blog and see lots of friends raising their new families. Claudiu-- I thoroughly appreciate his dedication/personal way of his practices and his tracking on this site (not to mention the musical side and just humor and light beingness I got to drive with once a good while ago). To sit in a class with Mark in his current intellectual pursuits would be, i think, neat to hear. Macie, the same; I just think a long coffee break with him or a concert with a couple of you in music would be swell followed by time afterwards to chat. (the downside of this list is I could go on and on-- Eva seems like someone I would appreciae being near in yoga, Psi has a sense of humor near to mine, Water Drop.. and so on; I'm not going to go on and on. I read a lot of posts. I love what people are sharing and trying).

It gets intense. But it gets funny too. I am saying this from "in the pool" --- one who contributes to the waves as much as to the placidity --- not from on-high like some life guard. I'm fully aware that my well-being these days is due to living "in" the DhO space for a number of years with comers and goers.

Thero, too, can come and go. This is a co-learner place. So I hope we don't reify each other into parodies. When I have done that-- held to another personhood as a favored or disfavored mental object-- it has only been a reflection on my need. Talking with people on and offline I get to learn often a person, like this person (me), is not one thing always. Maybe "ego" is a cultivating that does try to reify people for own uplift. If so, it is such a brittle means of pseudo 'well-being' compared to the well-being of being in space that's fluid with training, sparring, humor, apology, help, care, play, co-...


---------
You know: edits for typos and maybe clarity

edit: Ha! Since i had this window open for so long to reply several other posts have come in. Oh, well, far afield here.. =]

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 11:02 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
bernd the broter:
Dharmasar:

It has happened: at age 68, after many years of spiritual research, discipline and practice, I attained to Arahant. I want to acknowledge Daniel's insights and experiences, since mine were and are very similar, tending to validate his model.

Ah, he has read MCTB, this is why he's here and we're lucky to profit from his insights, right?
Oh, wait, but then there's this:
Dharmasar:

It's a matter of focus, determination, and sifting through all the false teachings until you get the Dhamma Eye. I think it's perfectly possible for a reasonably intelligent person to get Stream Entry in 3-5 years. You want to develop a strategic overview of the Buddha's teaching gleaned from the Suttas; avoid the Commentaries and Abhidhamma, and people who tell you it's impossible; then practice, practice, practice.

So, it's obvious. This guy hasn't even read MCTB, or didn't care enough to adapt his usual narrative so it wouldn't be in complete opposition to what he claims in the second sentence of his opening post. His very first few sentences contain a blatant lie.



This does not seem to be solid reasoning. Because he disagrees with MCTB or doesn't use that vocabularly it does not mean that he has not read MCTB. Someone who is actually trying to fool you, it seems you think he was trying to recruit you, would probably use your favorite terms and vocabularly. You are too quick to assume you have the truth, in a reasonable discussion you could ask if he has read MCTB. By starting with accusations we shut down the conversation and are left making assumptions to justify your earlier ass umptions.



The only thing he has read from MCTB is "limited action model" and even about this I'm not sure. Notice how other than that, he doesn't reference MCTB or Daniel's other experiences at all throughout all his posts. Also he declines his invitation to lunch, without even reciprocating to maybe skype with him or something.


In the space of a paragraph you've contradicted yourself, he was a blatant lier for not reading MCTB and now you are telling us which bits of MCTB he has read. He certainly does not have your interpretation of MCTB and that seems to be enough to justify insults. 



Mark:

I really don't think you could be wrong, you decide who is stupid so you much be very clever.

Hey Dude, I really didn't want to hurt you, only point out that I think you're being fooled. So let me replace "Don't be stupid" with "Don't be fooled".


If you don't want to hurt people then don't insult people. If your opinion was important to me it would obviously be hurtful. I did not feel hurt so no worries there. Where did I give any impression of being fooled ? Again you seem to jump to conclusions. I pointed out poor reasoning in Jenny's post, she did not reply but you have some desire to reply in her place. I doubt she wanted or needed your support. If I want to see people making reasoned/reasonable arguments instead of jumping to conclusions and insulting people I'm a fool in your book. I guess I'm lucky that I'm fine being both stupid and a fool in your judgement.



Mark:

I wonder why I was interested in seeing the conversation on this thread. Strangely I don't trust your advice.

Why not? Is it bad advice? How would you like it if Laurel approved of it?


You show poor reasoning ability and I'd rather trust my own poor reasoning ability. Yes it is bad advice, I'm not claiming 4th path and I'd rather see others with that claim have a discussion about phenomenology of 4th path. I'm not sure what Laurel has to do with this, I assume you are referring to your own behaviour in regards to Jenny.




Mark:

Whether the person is sincere or not is part of your criteria for 4th path. But you seem to have decided to police the forum so anyone who does not show the traits you know to be 4th path will quickly leave. Great job, well done.

Looks like an inadvertent strawman argument. I never talked about 4th path criteria. Also it doesn't matter. If this guy is trying to fool us, then we shouldn't be listening to him, regardless of his level of insight.
Since he's lying to us in his 2nd sentence, I would hope that we can agree that this is indeed what he is doing.

Yes and that is may be part of the point, the thread should have been about 4th path criteria instead it is about your inability to remain reasonable and civil.

If you are so vulnerable that you can't listen to someone who is trying to fool you then I can understand your reaction. If you think your reaction was in some way helping other people, well I can't see it. Rather than a discussion that could have shown the claims to be false or true we have your opinion, far from convincing unfortunately.

Your claim of his lying may be correct but it may also be incorrect. Your claims are based on assumption. The OP is not replying and why would he if there are people like you adding to the list of insults.

In your world someone who you perceive as trying to fool you is someone who needs to be ignored. Do you assume that anyone that teaches methods not presented in MCTB is trying to fool you ? Are you really this central to everyone's plans.

It would be extremely easy for someone who was trying to avoid dealing with some of the good points you raise to ignore them because of how you communicate. I guess you feel you are protecting yourself but were those pixels on your PC screen really such a menace.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 12:58 PM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Laurel Carrington:
[...] I do not necessarily accept that he lied about having read MCTB, by the way; I think he may have been inspired by it, but took from it what he may have found valuable and didn't bother with the rest.
You are a bit right; This
Dharmasar:

I attained to Arahant. I want to acknowledge Daniel's insights and experiences, since mine were and are very similar, tending to validate his model.

is, admittedly, an ambiguous statement. Please note that almost everything in Dharmasar's posts is ambiguous. There's basically nothing you can pin him down on. Almost everything he says you could interpret in another way.

Still, even in its weakest version, this statement means this:
-Dharmasar knows about and agrees with Daniel Ingram's basic experiences and his model, i.e. the "Progress Of Insight" and "The Models of Enlightenment" chapters. Those are the things that Daniel/MCTB is famous for, aside from his Arahant claim. Dharmasar also claims to be an Arahant, which means he must agree with Daniel Ingram's definition at least to a rather great extent. Otherwise he wouldn't tend to validate his model, right?

It's non-negotiable that 2 things follow from Daniel Ingram's work:
(1) There IS a useful model.
(2) Mahasi Sayadaw is great. btw, that tradition is based on the Commentaries, as is well known to anyone who is
Dharmasar:

at age 68, [and has had] many years of spiritual research, discipline and practice

The Mahasi tradition is living proof that the commentaries (Hello Visuddhimagga) do a good job at describing insight territory.
MCTB:

The Visuddhimagga, a Fifth Century text by Buddhaghosa, also does a nice treatment of these stages, and contains some interesting and hard-to-find information.


It's basically impossible to read anything significant about Daniel Ingram and miss those 2 things.
But Dharmasar contradicts both these points.
I fail to see how that, then, is not an obvious lie.

By the way, I shared your sentiment that it's sad that Dharmasar
Laurel:

spoke at length about chakras in this thread, a discussion that unfortunately got derailed.

But maybe there wasn't much of a discussion because Dharmasar, though he used lots of words, didn't actually say anything?
When I try to extract his statements about Chakras from his posts, I get this:
-There are seven chakras
-He can see the chakras' functions as energy flow
-It is impossible to get attainments without at least 2 Chakras open
-He has appropriate methods to open each chakra
-It is bad that the Buddhist tradition has no knowledge of chakras anymore.
-Actually, the knowledge of chakras is highly helpful to understand the Buddha's teaching
-There are many subtle points about the Buddha's teaching which people today don't understand because they don't understand Chakras.
-This applies especially to Westerners. (Hint: that's you.) But going to Asia won't save you.

To sum up: He is Chakra master, Chakras are extremely important for the Buddha's teaching, and there are those subtle points, the comprehension of which is lost on basically everyone. Except him. Did you notice that he didn't reveal even one of those subtle points?
Go figure.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 1:04 PM as a reply to Mark.
Paweł K:
The issue is that Dharmasar trustworthiness is greatly compromised. Just look up David Bruce Hughes at google. Read some testimonials of people who he used. If you do not believe it or do not care and want his point of view then he have YT channel(s) and there are a lot of things about him and his work if you search nick names Chris kindly provided.
To me, an issue is that BOTH his trustworthiness is compromised AND that others have used this as an excuse not follow board rules and then used evidence of his untrustworthiness as an excuse to justify their behavior.  I see those as 2 separate issues.  Is it OK to break board rules every time you don't like someone?  Is it OK to break board rules every time you think someone is trying to fool you?  Is it OK to break board rules any time you feel someone else broke them first?  Are you really breaking the board rules as a favor to all the rest of us that we might get fooled or is it also because you personally are upset?  Isn't it possible to alert others to possible deception without breaking board rules?  IMO, each person is personally responsible for what he/she says or types, it's not the fault of someone else you don't like.  Otherwise every time someone we don't like comes along, we'd have an excuse to act poorly and there are lots and lots of people around that could be potentially dislikeable for many many reasons, so the end result would be common poor behavior that is then conveniently blamed on others and even sometimes on misunderstandings and false assumptions.  IMO, the board rules shouldn't just apply for people we like but for the entire board.  And if someone here is supposed to be board police, isn't that person even much MORE expected to follow the rules than some stranger who just showed up? 

If you are on retreat and someone there breaks the rules, does that mean you now get to break the rules?  Do you go to organizers and tell them it's OK for you to break the rules because that guy did it first?  Are they going to accept that excuse or are they going to tell you to quit worrying about others and deal with yourself instead?  Are you going to tell them that the other guy is bad for retreat and for Buddhism and that he/she should just leave and expect them to accept it or are they going to tell you that part of your growth is to learn how to interact with all kinds of people and realize that person is also still learning and may make many mistakes along the way? 

While it all can be greatly exaggerated by people with unstable mental states I personally do not see point in having people with his reputation posting here, even if they were genuinely enlightened. Why? Because they will make more damage to ideas they present than they can make any good. So even if he was saint and all accusations and proofs are fabricated it doesn't change fact that he is compromised and his insights useless.
It's a slippery slope.  Once you get the attitude that you get to choose who you like posting here and that it's OK to try to drive off the rest of them by breaking your own board rules, you get a different kind of environment that starts to resemble Lord of the Flies.  Because for almost every singly person posting here there will be others that person does not care for and thinks the board would be better off without.  Who those disliked ones are will vary according to various personality interactions.  So once people get the idea that it's OK to break rules to get rid of those they don't like, then it can become an ugly melee rather quickly.  Board rules are developed to try to prevent that kind of thing.  There seems to be a strong tendency for humans to try drive off everything that displeases them and there tends to be a LOT of things that displease them so it's an impossible task, instead of just learning how to deal with some of those things more effectively instead.  It's the difference between being reactive and proactive.  
-Eva  

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 1:35 PM as a reply to bernd the broter.
I don't know if there is any point in trying to discuss this further, except to say that I wonder whether people would say things to one another in person in the manner they are posting here. This is related to Katy's speculation about what each of us would be like in person, but the trouble is we are left dealing with one another in an internet forum.

So: Psi, your meow joke was too subtle for my superficial mind. If we were speaking in person, you would hear me laughing, because I typically find my husband's puns escaping me until he has been at it for several exchanges, but unless I say that, my reply sounds like defensive sarcasm. Bernd, you are marshalling detailed arguments to show that OP was a fraud (or at least extremely bad news) from the get-go, but I can't say that I am ready to agree with you. Perhaps his state now, since "it has happened," is what he thinks reflects Daniel's model; who am I to know? If we were having a beer together, I'd push back and we might end up meeting in the middle. If I push back here, it sounds like I'm trying to score points.

Jenny, I don't know what to do about you. I admit that, whatever the nature of my attainments, I find that you push my buttons. Judge me as you see fit, but it's kind of an insider thing, because I too am an academic, and perhaps there's unresolved business in my background that causes me to want to flare out at Jenny when she begins to sound like a schoolmarm to these ears. At the same time, though, there is a point to my dissatisfaction, having to do with my perception that you are enforcing some kind of MCTB-only orthodoxy, and heaping scorn on anyone who won't conform. I do have compassion for your struggles in life, which you have discussed here, and am genuinely happy for you that you have gotten 4th path. Over time, I have found that attainments "settle in," and in my case there have been several baseline shifts post-4 (which, I should say, is likely Kenneth's rather than Daniel's definition, but there it is).

People argue about this stuff all the time, and create great amusement among onlookers who think we should all know better. Even the big guys, whose sandals I am not fit to fasten, argue and sometimes become alienated. This is a fact of life, so the first of the Four Noble Truths still holds sway even when we should be well over it. (BTW, the OP called himself an arahant, not a Buddha.)

I apologize in advance for anything I've said that is not constructive. I have nothing but well-wishing for everyone here, including our OP for this thread, regardless of what he has done, is now doing, or will do.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 1:37 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Nicely said, Eva.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 3:05 PM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
@Laurel:
Good, we shall leave it at that.
My objective was to show why the guy can't be trusted, so as to thwart his plan of using DhO as his advertisement stage.
I guess it's done. If it is all a great misunderstanding, he is still free to come back and explain what he's actually about.
(By the force of my psychic powers I declare this won't happen.)

@Mark:
Either I've made you very angry or we're just talking past each other. Well, I guess both.
I see no point in replying in detail, because I don't see this going anywhere useful anymore.
Of course you are right in saying that some of my behaviour is unnecessary childish and, also at times, disrespectful.
I guess this is just the Way Of The Bread. (Or the bread was in oven at wrong heat.)
I apologize for insulting you, understanding that you perceived it that way, and hope we can leave it at that without any residual anger.

@Pawel @ 666 Posts:
I guess you should just stop posting now. It doesn't get better than that.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/17/15 8:21 PM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Paweł K:

@Eva
How did I exactly break forum rules?
I did not say that you had, I said that some people had.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/18/15 3:01 AM as a reply to Dharmasar.
How has your relationship to the Ten Fetters changed? Are they gone? Weakened? Can you turn them on/off at will?

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/19/15 4:50 PM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Laurel:
Jenny, I don't know what to do about you. I admit that, whatever the nature of my attainments, I find that you push my buttons.
Hi, Laurel. I hope you and your buttons are feeling better today. emoticon

I'm not aware that I have, or ever have had, any conflict with you whatsoever. Is there a problem between us?

I'm continually surprised when nearly any time I post on the DhO, you go on the attack and press a little red flag, if not button. Please let us Skype together, one on one, since there seems to be some issue between you and me that I'm utterly unaware of. That way, we can problem-solve this continual problem you seem to be having with, or at least toward, me. 

Meantime, I've not for a single instant broken any rule on the Dharma Overground. As a member in good standing, I enjoy the perogative to ask an OP claiming so lofty an attainment as arahatship clarifying questions about how he did it, what model he is claiming under, the phenomenology of the attainment, and the like. Moreover, those kinds of questions are traditional DhO fare, as you have been around long enough to know full well. So is calling someone out for being disingenious or self-contradictory in his or her replies to those questions--traditional DhO fare. There is, after all, a downside to staking public claims to attainments and then refusing to state any basis.

As for "what to do about" Jenny, I will have to leave that and your "buttons" to you, as they are none of my business but yours entirely. Otherwise, please take this off-line and accept my invitation to Skype.

As for what actually is my business, I will continue to be who I've become. When I post, I do so from a place of lucidity. I did so in this case. I posted, as well, from compassion, for DhO members rather new to the practice who may not be familiar with the former rigor of this board with regard to phenomenology and high-attainment claim-staking. 

A question you may want to re-ask yourself rather than me is why or how any of what I say to an OP who is not Laurel touches upon Laurel and her "buttons." Otherwise, again, please Skype with me if there is actually some interpersonal problem between Laurel and Jenny, a problem that Jenny is, to date, completely in the dark about.

Judge me as you see fit, but it's kind of an insider thing, because I too am an academic, and perhaps there's unresolved business in my background that causes me to want to flare out at Jenny when she begins to sound like a schoolmarm to these ears. 

Schoolmarm (n.): Laurel, Is this noun subtle, or not so subtle, namecalling? Does that image evoke my age and gender among other attributes? Is it derogatory? My asking the OP clarifying questions about his claimed attainment means I'm an uptight old female school mistress? Really?
At the same time, though, there is a point to my dissatisfaction, having to do with my perception that you are enforcing some kind of MCTB-only orthodoxy, and heaping scorn on anyone who won't conform.

This MCTB "enforcement" and "scorn" are indeed your perception. As to enforcement, I am not the owner of this site, nor an admin. I don't "enforce" anything here, as I have no power.

Moreover, as to "MCTB," I never once claimed that MCTB is the way. In fact Indo-Tibetan Mahamudra, not MCTB, is my own practice/attainment model, so why would I do that? Answer: I would not, because I in fact did not.

What I did was ask the OP what model his publicly claimed attainment of "arahat" was under, particularly since he thanked Daniel and said his attainments resemble Daniel's, suggesting the strong possibility that he used MCTB as his practice and model:

I'm curious whether those changes are part of what you are calling fourth path, or whether you mean by a different model than MCTB.

Enjoy,
Jenny

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/20/15 4:55 PM as a reply to Jenny.
There seems to be more drama than Dharma around here.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/20/15 6:56 PM as a reply to Jenny.
Thanks for the invite, Jenny, but it's time for me to disengage. Not from the forum, but from this exchange. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/22/15 4:03 PM as a reply to Jenny.
(How) has your relationship to the ten fetters changed? Are they gone? Weakened? Unchanged? Do you have a new perspective on them compared to before 1-4 paths? 

"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters."

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/22/15 4:56 PM as a reply to Chris M.
Chris M:
There seems to be more drama than Dharma around here.
Funny observation of word play, the path of the dharma or the path of the drama, that is the question!  (I think I may have to steal that..)
-Eva

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/24/15 1:31 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Well, this has been interesting.

In no particular order:

The websites note above accusing DBH of psychopathy are relatively concerning. It is hard without knowing someone personally to verify or deny such things, but still, reports there are troubling, realizing that things posted on the internet are often imperfect. I do personally find the dead, insane, missing thing creepy in his video, though I agree with Claudiu that similar things are found in Buddhist texts, however also a bit creepy. Still, his call for respect, in and of itself, is a reasonable thing to apply to everyone as best we can. I do like the production quality of his youtube video. Something about watching it reminded me of my old dharma friend Kenneth Folk, with whom I haven't spoken the better part of a year: the dharma is such a complex thing, as are models of attainments: potentially liberating, potentially poisonous.

I do wish that Jenny would own her own reasonable questions about the criteria for attainments without having to bring me into it. There is something about her tone there that I do find not as potentially conducive to the dialogue she seemed to wish to have, but I realize that I have also used similar tones at points, so this is my reaction of this moment, and certainly the DhO has a culture that at times verges in that direction, as we all know, which clearly is a mixed bag of appropriate emotional honesty and call for important debate while at times actually impeding getting the deeper questions answered and teasing out the depth of subtlety and nuance that this place is, at its best, sometimes capable of.

I have recently been listening to my favorite author, Jack Vance, and recalling aspects of his dialogue, in which characters speak in hyper-stylized ways, often using subtlety and exaggerated politeness to make points that are actually cutting, threatening, critical, demanding, and the like, and I find the effect pleasant.

With regard to high attainments, I think there is sometimes merit in allowing people to be invited to show what they have, draw them out, and allow the conversation to develop to a deeper level without just jumping in with words that might be taken to be (or actually be) confrontational rhetoric, however seemingly justified or correct from some point of view.

Otherwise, as these are somewhat sensitive, complex, subtle topics, and personalities clearly remain after awakening, it can be hard to see what is just superficiality and lack of attainment and what is some reasonable reaction to what may come across as being harsh and needless criticism. Said another way, if one begins to rapidly attack a claimant, or be seen by them to be rapidly attacking, even if one isn't actually doing that, this can muddy waters in which gaining clarity is already a pretty tricky business. Perhaps a somewhat longer period of open-ended, straightforward questions with less potentially implied tone of judgement might cause a higher level of investigation into what is actually going on and help the actual answers the person originally was interested in obtaining. While I can see that perhaps some shock-test method might be perceived to show what such a claimant does under duress, still, I consider such notions fallable and not uniformly effective.

I totally agree with Katy's point about how being with people in person is very, very different from what happens in online forums, and advocate for people spending more time trying to gather. Speaking of which, Buddhist Geeks didn't happen this year, may not happen next year (still uncertain about that), and my initial burst of energy to help throw together some subtitute social function to stand in for it folded under complex time and work pressures. Still, it would be good to at least try, as without the meat-space contact, something definitely is lost. That should likely be another thread.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/23/15 4:52 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I appreciate your weighing in, Daniel. I probably have a lower tolerance than most people here for harsh speech. I particularly mind dishonest speech, which disclaims any responsibility for the poster's own behavior. I am also disgusted when any possibility for meaningful discussion is highjacked by an atmosphere straight out of 9th grade. It does no credit to this forum in the eyes of onlookers. We are subversive enough as it is in frankly claiming attainments. I note that the OP himself expressed more than once an awareness that openly describing attainments was something he felt he could not do most places. 

If models or maps of attainments are potentially poisonous, it seems to me that claims are as well, particularly when people lose all semblance of humility as a result. That is why I agree with those who value morality as an essential component of their practice.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/23/15 6:41 PM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Daniel:

There is something about her tone there that I do find not as potentially conducive to the dialogue she seemed to wish to have, but I realize that I have also used similar tones at points, so this is my reaction of this moment, and certainly the DhO has a culture that at times verges in that direction, as we all know, which clearly is a mixed bag of appropriate emotional honesty and call for important debate while at times actually impeding getting the deeper questions answered and teasing out the depth of subtlety and nuance that this place is, at its best, sometimes capable of.


I believe that all DhO users possess the emotional intelligence, intellectual honesty, and overall character to always communicate in a direct, sophisticated, polite and tactful manner.  I think part of the problem is that people wish to 'vent'/express frustration online that they have bottled up from their daily lives.  It would be best if we imagine each thread as a face to face conversation.  

I ask myself; would I say this in person?  Or how about, would I have the balls to say this in person?  lol.

We have the power, as an online community, to forge this type of culture here.  Imagine how the average level of conversation quality could be raised.  Oh, the possibilities...



RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/24/15 1:15 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I have a Google search for "David Bruce Hughes" bookmarked and every couple months or so on a slow night I click on it hoping after all these years something new will finally have come up. David Bruce Hughes is of course your Dharmasar Thero member you are discussing here. I use the name 'darwin' as I have since 17 years ago writing on Hare Krishna forums. (I had thought my belief in evolution would be a big deal but it never was.)   Here is my Youtube channel

I was an active participant on a forum of former Hare Krishna devotees and radical free spirit devotees when the David Bruce Hughes scandal occurred. We had a topic going on for weeks about it. I even got the main disciple of Mr. Hughes to come participate after a while. (I'll say Mr. Hughes for this stuff in the past. Good?)

I worked on the issue of Mr. Hughes on that forum and turned it inside out in fun and in seriousness. The serious part I did take seriously because researching and establishing the history of human rights violations in our Hare Krishna movement is something that I do. It ended up with my thinking that Mr. Hughes is no more blameworthy and in need of shunning than the average midlife crisis divorcing husband and father you would find up and down every street in the college town where I grew up.

There was a lady here on this topic on his case about the past and some people were talking about whether she was failing to follow guidelines here by being too critical or whatever. If she is worried there is an injustice being not attended to maybe I can help because I do the same as her all the time in my world because nobody else will. (Me versus Boston Public Schools endlessly.) I hope her feelings are not hurt. If anyone wants to talk to me on skype or whatever I'm good with that. I do think I did a good job sorting out the issue.

Mr. Hughes was fascinating and fun and creative and just plain cool. And just tonight I called him a genius when talking to my wife. I meant a genius but that he may never show us or maybe we won't put in the work to look. I know I may be being delusional and overly exited but there is nobody else I say that about and that shows something special and worthwhile too.

Back then Mr. Hughes and all of it was just so much fun. He can really defend his position too. He had a lot of really cool videos. He had discovered some things back then I realized later. It is and was all so much fun to make fun of, but he saw some stuff. Esoteric. I had made fun of him and his fancy words and the way he will focus on a word, but the guy knows some stuff. And that one means I'm not going to talk about it, doesn't it?

I hope he finds a way to bring it all together, his new and old selves he allows and had allowed the world and us to see. I wonder if he still has that video where he has his ashram and disciples and is making spaghetti sauce. Maybe he'll tell us now or hint at it about the issues he causes and has caused with his unique self absorbed cat-like personality combined with his need and drive to engage the world as a teacher. But in that afternoon in the tropics somewhere he was genuinely happy. In love is what I wrote on the forum after he had lost and was loosing all of it.  He liked to put some beans in the sauce. When they are partly cooked he uses a hand held electric mixer to grind them in so they cook really quickly.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
11/15/15 2:08 PM as a reply to darwin.
David Bruce Hughes seems like he has something of worth to offer as a teacher, or just as someone to communicate with.  But at the same time, my BS meter is off the scale with the guy, there's something really fishy going on with him.

The Dharmasar Solution leverages the core teaching of the Buddha so you can independently be, do, have, learn or become anything 

The Dharmasar Solution is a 1-week course that brings you to enlightenment in 100 days. It's based on an obscure manuscript discovered in a Buddhist monastery in China, and combines the best ideas from Taoism, Buddhism, Nestorian Christianity and other traditions. The power of this method is in the synergy of an eclectic mix of techniques.


I mean... really?

Sort of off-topic, and sort of on-topic; Brian Ruhe is a Buddhism/meditaiton teacher in my area, I've known about him for a few years, he has some sort of an association with Ajahn Sona (legit monk at Birken Forest monastery) which lent some amount of credibility.

He was in the news recently for being released from his teaching position at a local college.  Turns out he has a youtube channel full of videos of him talking about the Rothschilds controlling society, how the government has secret UFO technology that could end our dependence on oil and save the environment, and.. wait for it..  how Hitler was a really good guy and is just misunderstood. 

One of his latest videos is titled "Contemplative Society of Hitler Meditation Retreats"

Anyways.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/25/15 7:51 AM as a reply to chris mc.
Sort of off-topic, and sort of on-topic; Brian Ruhe is a Buddhism/meditaiton teacher in my area, I've known about him for a few years, he has some sort of an association with Ajahn Sona (legit monk at Birken Forest monastery) which lent some amount of credibility.

He was in the news recently for being released from his teaching position at a local college.  Turns out he has a youtube channel full of videos of him talking about the Rothschilds controlling society, how the government has secret UFO technology that could end our dependence on oil and save the environment, and.. wait for it..  how Hitler was a really good guy and is just misunderstood.  

One of his latest videos is titled "Contemplative Society of Hitler Meditation Retreats"


Whoa, nelly!

If I want a teacher, I ask why does the teacher want me (students) and I look to see what they're trying to get from the role.
Teachers I love, I've learned over time, just want me to
a) practice, and
b) see for myself. 
(I reference music as well as meditation and a number of other areas I had the good fortune to learn.)

It is impossible to re-pay open-handed instruction, except for dedicated practicing, which practice benefits student and teacher alike.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
9/27/15 8:08 PM as a reply to Dharmasar.
Dharmasar:
It has happened: at age 68, after many years of spiritual research, discipline and practice, I attained to Arahant. I want to acknowledge Daniel's insights and experiences, since mine were and are very similar, tending to validate his model.

Before discovering the Buddha's teaching I was a student of Bhakti and Vedānta. I was a Hindu monk and disciple of a prominent Indian guru for over 30 years. I practiced and attained everything that was described in that path (BTW I do not subscribe to the usual interpretation of Vedānta attributed to Śāṅkarācārya) and even became a guru myself. But I felt incomplete and unsatisfied, leading to resigning my position and beginning my search anew. 

I determined to base my new search for truth on experience rather than faith. This led to research into Existentialism, especially Heidegger. After seeing some of my videos online, a friend told me, "Your understanding is very similar to Theravāda Buddhism." I had encountered Buddhism before, of course, but during my early search in the 60s Theravāda was not readily available in the West. I didn't like Tibetan Buddhism because it seemed a recast of Hinduism, and Zen seemed to have a lot of background missing.

But as soon as I read some books by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, I could see that Theravāda was a lot closer to the original teaching of the Buddha. So I got some copies of the Suttas and dove in. I went to Thailand but could not find a monastery where I felt comfortable. Buddhadasa's disciples had largely given up his radical Suttānta stance and caved in to government pressure to conform to the orthodoxy. I got an invitation to go to Sri Lanka and went there to study. I was ordained as a monk and lived in a forest monastery for almost two years.

Here I should backtrack and recount an episode from the 1980s. After my Indian guru passed away I became interested in Rajneesh ('Osho') and investigated, even visiting his commune in Oregon. I could not stand his organization, which seemed infected by sociopaths. But I was impressed by the breadth of his work, even if it seemed rather shallow at times. Anyway I started to study his methods and after some time, settled on his book Secret of Secrets, a presentation of the Chinese classic The Secret of the Golden Flower (T'ai I Chin Hua Tsung Chih). I had some background in Chinese martial arts and Taoist energy work, and it made sense to me.

I took about two months out from my usual practices to study this method intensively. I started sitting meditation and worked up from 2 hours a day until I was doing virtually nothing else every waking moment. I could only sit for 20-30 minutes at a time, then would take a break and stretch, sit right back down and start again. After about six weeks of this practice, I had what I can only describe as an oceanic experience of universal bliss. All the usual symptoms of Kuṇdalīni manifested, along with a vision of all-pervading consciousness and light. I was high for weeks afterward. At the time I interpreted this as realization of Brahman, but later on as I understood the Buddha's teaching I could understand that this was Stream Entry. I read of many similar experiences on this forum.

Fast-forward to two years ago. Living in the forest monastery, in a kuṭi with a spectacular view overlooking the whole southern province of Sri Lanka, I had two more breakthroughs, much subtler and deeper than I had experienced in 1984. I'm not going to describe all the details here because it would make this much too long. In each case, I was not pursuing any specific kind of enlightenment or realization, but simply plugging along with my study and practice of the Suttas. The experiences were spontaneous and unexpected, which helped to convince me they were genuine.

I should mention that for a long time I had doubts about my 1984 experience, until my studies convinced me that it was Stream Entry. As soon as I acknowledged the attainment, I felt much better about everything. Doubting attainments leads to confusion. Part of the mind, the intuitive wisdom, knows very well what you have attained. Another part, the social superego, is afraid of what other people will think. Over time I have learned to trust my intuition.

As you may well imagine, my realizations led to a deep conflict with the orthodox Buddhist monks and society. Many of these issues have been well-discussed on this forum and do not require elaboration here. I left the monastery and began to live independently as a monk. During this time I continued writing and making videos, gradually taking responsibility for my attainments. And of course, I kept up my practice. I should mention that during this time I got an introduction to Bhikkhu Kaṭakuruṇde Ñāṇananda. I was able to visit him and get his blessings. More than anything else, his teachings opened up the mystery of Nibbāna for me.

I was invited to Norway last summer to teach at a spiritual center. It was not an especially happy time. The Norwegians are, socially and consciousness-wise, where the US was in the 1950s: enjoying lots of material abundance, naively thinking it will bring happiness. So teaching Theravāda there was like trying to teach the calculus to kindergartners. People were looking for a pleasant 'spiritual' vacation with some nice entertaining stories. They did not want to be challenged to think or pursue deep insight. So it was rather unsatisfying but I got a lot of good coursework and practice done. 

It happened on the plane, on the way back to Sri Lanka. I was sitting next to a nice educated Arabic couple with an infant. As usual I was meditating and of course the baby was fussy. So I had to concentrate especially hard to keep focus. On the approach to Dubai I reached a peak of concentration. Suddenly I clearly saw the cause of suffering and its cessation. I experienced this:
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.' ... Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'" — Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
The Sutta phrase "Released. There is nothing more for this world," spontaneously arose in my mind. Unfortunately I could not just relax and savor the moment, because shortly we landed and I had to endure the usual airport nonsense. But once I landed in Sri Lanka and got back to my kuṭi, I was amazed how my internal state had changed. Huge chunks of mental stuff were just gone, everything was very clear within, and I could not doubt that something very profound had happened. I spent three weeks hardly eating or sleeping, just absorbed in the attainment, trying to understand the significance of it all.

Of course, this was the final nail in the coffin of my relationship with Buddhist orthodoxy. Although I haven't posted anything specifically about being an Arahant, I have caught quite a bit of flak on orthodox Buddhist forums for views expressed in my videos and writings. Oh well, I don't consider those people's association especially beneficial, anyway. But it's too bad that 'Buddhists' have now become just like the Brahmins in the Buddha's time. 

Firstly, it has been advised againt claiming attainment levels, and more often than not, in the Suttas, you rarely hear about Arahats claiming "I am an Arahat" or "I am an enlightened being", rather you hear the Buddha praising Venerable x/y as to the path he has awakened through. To say 'I am enlightened' is delusion, to say 'I am unenlightened' is delusion.

Claiming attainments tend to open up the space to unwholesome discussions, and might create obstacles within others. So in general, it doesn't seem to be skillfull action.

With regards to your experiences in Norway, it does reflect somewhat on the judgemental attitude, which is perhaps a very subtle part of 'ill-will'? As a spiritual guide, to be able to share the practice with ALL of humanity, regardless of their mindset, status, and background is the greatest joy in the world. Equanimity in good or bad situation is also a clear factor one's cultivation. Neither being unhappy in an unsatisfactory situation, or swept away by happiness in a good situation is important. Just trying to guide everyone to awaken to their inner Buddha is already enough. 

Concentration born of 'perfected' equanimity is a milestone in the fourth Jhana. So having to concentrate especially hard to maintain focus(on what?) while the baby is crying is suspect. If balanced upon perfected equanimity, then baby crying, just crying. Relaxed, no clinging to silence(mental/physical), or aversion to noise. 

Perfect Equanimity is not realised only in peaceful environments, it is perfected within, and reflected in action in all situations, good or bad, and especially in the bad situations. To be balanced in equanimity allows one to be relaxed in all situations, so, airport situation, no problem..Buddhist orthodoxy, no problem.

To just understand that Buddhist orthodoxy is a vehicle to transmit the teachings, and is just a useful tool is enough. There is no need to dismiss the vehicle, you once used, and which many people may use to tread the path to awakening.

Perhaps what you might have been riling against is Buddhist dogmas, and even so, having completely penetrated the cause of suffering, you can see where all the clinging to the dogmas arise from, therefore, it might give cause to develop compassion towards those caught in the dogmas, and compassionately guide them towards non-clinging, and removal of ignorance - awakening?

Arahat, nothing special. Puthujjana, nothing special.

To end off, in Zen they speak about no attainment with nothing to attain.

To the 'unenlightened', there is attainment of enlightment. 

To the 'enlightened', there is nothing to attain. 

Which is correct and which is wrong? You say, the latter or the former, or both, or neither. My stick hits you 108 times. 

HAAAAAAA

You are reading the words on the screen of a computer, the sun is shining as this is being written. 

In the Dharma,
Jimbo

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/6/15 12:52 PM as a reply to Jimmy Jing Fu Wong.
Jimmy Jing Fu Wong:
 

Firstly, it has been advised againt claiming attainment levels, and more often than not, in the Suttas, you rarely hear about Arahats claiming "I am an Arahat" or "I am an enlightened being", rather you hear the Buddha praising Venerable x/y as to the path he has awakened through. To say 'I am enlightened' is delusion, to say 'I am unenlightened' is delusion.

Claiming attainments tend to open up the space to unwholesome discussions, and might create obstacles within others. So in general, it doesn't seem to be skillfull action.


        That's all well and good, but bare this in mind: The DhO explicitly has a culture in which open claims are encouraged and in which open claims can be expected to be met with critical questioning. That's how it works here. If you want to debate that, there is a category called the 'dharma battleground' in which that would be appropriate and possibly fruitful. One last thing about claims: there are plenty of negative group dynamics that come with implicit claims, too. And those can be hard to meet head on with critical inquiry because the person implicitly making claims by taking a certain stance in relation to another poster can always say they aren't claiming anything. So open claims can defuse weird passive aggressive shit.

       As for your points about equanimity, well said, and agreed. Equanimity isn't maintained in the face of distractions its whats there when the fabricated boundary between distraction/what I want to be paying attention to dissolves. Ironically I came to this experience with.. a crying baby! ;)

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 9:50 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
One last thing about claims: there are plenty of negative group dynamics that come with implicit claims, too. And those can be hard to meet head on with critical inquiry because the person implicitly making claims by taking a certain stance in relation to another poster can always say they aren't claiming anything.


Hmm.. Three things come to mind: 
1. I never thought about someone making an 'implicit claim'!  At first I thought you were joking, then I realized that with no one claiming anything you actually do feel some people are making implicit claims -- that people's words in the forum, if they don't claim something explicitly, they can bring "plenty of negative group dynamics" if you think they're implicitly 'claiming'. WOW!!! 
I am trying to wrap my head around that: wow! Do people have to make claims here?
If people don't, do you keep a vague accusation in the air of vague implicit claimer causing negative stuff? Wow! This is an eye-opener! It is like McCarthyism: you better declare or we keep this ghost of a shit stirrer in the air, someone secretly implicitly claiming causing negative stuff.
Eeeww. Very nasty suspicion, the hovering accusation in the air! Shakespearean!
"Fair is foul, foul is fair, hover through implict claimant's air.."

2. There are models that are just behavior based and claims aren't part of those models or a seen as a clinging behavior. And people change models. I love the fetter model: which has releases to which one can attest (aka. "claim" as you say). I also love zen models, as in
"Open mouth, already a mistake," (Seung Sahn, rich history there!), or
Platform Sutra: one is awake as soon as one is conducing oneself reliablely in a moment and no longer as soon as one is not (a toogling awakeness with out concrete claim).

3. When a claimant in the forum claims to be fully enlightened/"awake" they know they are making a public claim and that people will test it for reliability (sometimes, persons basically come to the forum to make a public claim). That's okay.
     Neither negative or postive to me, so far.
     Why does a person make a public claim?
     Need to be ackowledged? Desire to help? 
That is exactly a great time for someone to say, "You're claiming here (your choice) that you're an enlightened being/awake (!), I'm not.. so erm.. what are you doing? What's the value/reliability of your 'awakening'?" And let them answer. They wanted to share something publically and must know all ranges of mind exist in the public-- and many who test. It is our species as tool users, makers and social sharers to do this!

Anyway, even Gotama Buddha is said to have declared his mahaniddana awakening to the first man he met on the road, which man is written to have just walked away from him. Gotama Buddha lived in a time of commerce and claimants and yet he seems to have taught and been able to be like hot butter on the bread of life/questioning/testing... spreading to this day.  Hot butter sutra.. ;)
____
11x edit?: quote box and seung sahn, CAPS!!, clarity, formatting <sigh>

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 10:06 AM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
I can't tell if you're arguing with me (I think you may think you are, because of the snark in your first paragraph) and if so, I can't tell what you're arguing with me about or why ;)

I'm having a hard time seeing how what you wrote connects to the quote of me in your post?

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 11:22 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
Good grief, Jake. What snark? What is going on? 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 11:34 AM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
lol, I don't know! The dangers of text based communication? Your first paragraph of response struck me as snarky with all the 'wow!'s and such ... But no worries! Oh, and the McCarthyism comment. I just didn't get where that was coming from, but in my experience, McCArthyism isn't thrown around as a complement so, I guess that added to my confusion?

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 11:37 AM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
katy steger:

1. I never thought about someone making an 'implicit claim'!  At first I thought you were joking, then I realized that with no one claiming anything you actually do feel some people are making implicit claims -- that people's words in the forum, if they don't claim something explicitly, they can bring "plenty of negative group dynamics" if you think they're implicitly 'claiming'. WOW!!! 
I am trying to wrap my head around that: wow! Do people have to make claims here?
If people don't, do you keep a vague accusation in the air of vague implicit claimer causing negative stuff? Wow! This is an eye-opener! It is like McCarthyism: you better declare or we keep this ghost of a shit stirrer in the air, someone secretly implicitly claiming causing negative stuff.
Eeeww. Very nasty suspicion, the hovering accusation in the air! Shakespearean!
"Fair is foul, foul is fair, hover through implict claimant's air.."

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 11:43 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
^^^ All that just seemed like a strange reaction to my (I thought) relatively innocuous point as excerpted in your initial quote. I just didn't understand where you were coming from or even whether you were agreeing/disagreeing/something else.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 12:02 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
One last thing about claims: there are plenty of negative group dynamics that come with implicit claims, too. And those can be hard to meet head on with critical inquiry because the person implicitly making claims by taking a certain stance in relation to another poster can always say they aren't claiming anything. So open claims can defuse weird passive aggressive shit.


Here is the paragraph that hit me like a joke. That was the first sensation. Ha! It hit me like you were kidding, about to say something humorous. Then I realized I was surprised. I did not think you carried this.

1) To re-iterate Point number one I made:
Whether you intend to or not, you are asserting that there are 'implicit claimers' on the site who come with "weird passive aggressive shit" (which can be defused by open claims) ---
   a) who are those implicit claimers that you want to meet head on with critical inquiry,
   b) How to you recognize them?
   c) and who brings with them negative group dynamics--?

So there's a lot to evidence there yet to be supplied to make such an assertion of troublesome implicit claimers sort of lurking in the group --- such a paranoia or suspicion --- before, to me, it would be worth asserting that creepy suggestion into the forum. 

What you are doing is making it so that a practitioner who
a) has nothing to "claim", explicitly or implicitly, or
b) who has nothing to "claim" according to Point 2 above because claims are not in their tradition or are not public/cause for anything at all in their tradition,

..such a practioner now is subject to claiming one way or the other, "Am" or "No" claiming.

Else, they are potential ugly fuel for what you have suggested is here: implicit claimers coming with plenty of negative group dynamics and wierd passive aggressive shit.


When a moderator/participant promotes a concern that there are participants who are explicitly not claiming, yet you somehow know they are implicitly claiming some "Attainment" and causing "wierd passive aggressive shit" and coming with "plenty of negative group dynamics"...
...then you are adding to the environment one the idea that people have to be explicit one way or the other in their posts. 



This is okay to house the mind in such a bag, but it's one in which you also get to live. It's a condition you make (without the rigor of open, clear evidence) and therefore if you find one day that your silent calm practice (I speculate for positive analogy about you) falls under someone's judgement that you are an "implicit claimer".. suddenly, you find you, too, are subject to this accusational environment and now you (or a new community member) could feel compelled to jabber on defensively"No, no, just practice, sir/ma'am. I didn't mean any claim. I'm sorry," or, assertionally, "Oh, yes, I claim.."

Which is okay, but such a wierd way to house consciousness, like holding the hand on a hot burner for no healthy reason.



Here's what I think: If you have a concern that someone is "implicitly claiming" perhaps engage with them to learn about their practice. This is what I do with actual claimants, because they come here of their own choice and declare their self-identification as "enlightened"/"awake": I inquire with them and learn about what they consider awakened by not their bios, but their activeness.

___
Maybe 6-7 edits for clarity and format (and updating the edit estimate)? One para removed: almost verbatim redundant.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 12:28 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Thanks for trying to re-phrase your response in a less snarky way, I think I see what you're getting at now. That makes sense. I was speaking very generally, in response to a poster possibly derailing a thread in the 'claims to attainment' category off into a discussion about the legitimacy of 'claiming' in general and trying to make the point that that argument might be more appropriately had in the dhrama battleground, that's all. That was the thrust of what I was getting at.

The paragraph that you are thinking and feeling and writing so much about was honestly a bit more offhand, and was also merely a generalization and meant as such, and upon reflection I think it's inspired as much or more by everyday experiences of life outside the dharma context altogether.

Basically, I think I was saying that a counter-argument to the 'don't make claims because that leads to trouble' argument is that, indeed, human beings are perfectly capable of making all kinds of implicit claims (exhibited by the stance, physical/emotional/social they take in an interaction, or in a similar way) and these claims are in some ways trickier to respond to becuase they can be plausibly denied.

here's an example. I went to a meditation retreat and the teacher explicitly disavowed any claims to experience or attainments (which is fine) but also responded to people authoritatively about their own reports of experiences and gave them directive advice about how to proceed in their practice. I think that's an example of an implicit claim, in which how he conducted himself and the spot he sat in and the fact that he asked people to respond to him only during the q-and-a sessions rather than to each other all constituted an implicit claim of authority. That's how traditional groups (critiqued as mushroom culture by MCTemoticon often seem, to me, to function. That's ok. I actually got alot out of that meditation retreat and the feedback of that instructor. I just find it wierd (in a funny, anthropological, aren't humans interesting kind of way) that people really beleive that way of proceeding is actually so much better than explicit claims to specific kinds of experiential authority. It just seems pretty obvious to me that there are all kinds of funny group dynamics that come with such implicit claims. This happens alot in the work world with a person whose role is not supervisory acting as if they are someone else's supervisor, whether because they have seniority, or because that is simply the attitude they take at work. I observe that these folks often seem kind of passive aggressive about how they do this and defensive about being called on it. Obviously, all of this is just anecdote shared from my experience.

[If you're going to pick something out of this post to respond to, I think the above bolded paragraph is really the meat of what I'm saying-- and notice that I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion or perspective on this, just sharing mine]

I don't recognize myself in your description of a person reading this board paranoically attributing 'implicit claims' to everyone who posts. I don't think I ever said that "not making a claim = making an implicit claim". Is that how you see me?

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 1:00 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
Bold para you wrote: yes, the "mushroom culture" also created an accusational environment. Who is a mushoomer?
Well, as they say, the one who smelt it, dealt it.

I have sometimes commented about that, too, asked if people need to use/create that charicature and why sustain it?
Gah :] Compassion for me/you/them/our species' instincts.

I just find it wierd (in a funny, anthropological, aren't humans interesting kind of way) that people really beleive that way of proceeding is actually so much better than explicit claims to specific kinds of experiential authority. It just seems pretty obvious to me that there are all kinds of funny group dynamics that come with such implicit claims.


Mm-hm.



Is that how you see me?


As actions. Like, this one here typing.



RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 1:04 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
katy steger:
One last thing about claims: there are plenty of negative group dynamics that come with implicit claims, too. And those can be hard to meet head on with critical inquiry because the person implicitly making claims by taking a certain stance in relation to another poster can always say they aren't claiming anything. So open claims can defuse weird passive aggressive shit.


Here is the paragraph that hit me like a joke. That was the first sensation. Ha! It hit me like you were kidding, about to say something humorous. Then I realized I was surprised. I did not think you carried this.
It's interesting how things get funneled through personal interpretation in different ways.  First there is someone elses intentions and emotions which lead to that person saying something.  Then the person hearing/reading it has their own intentions and emotions which that message gets funneled through and interpreted.  So that I can read something and see one thing, and another can read the same thing and see something else, but most likely both the listeners have altered the original from it's original form because it had to go through or individual lenses before we could see it. 

When I read it, I saw it as him saying that implicit claims sometimes cause more problems when  certain circumstances he said come to pass.  And I felt no reason to argue with that interpretation because I could see that as a possible scenario sometimes (but not always) happening. I did not personally read it as saying that implicit are always worse all the time or that all explicit statements are always correct in their content or that explicit doesn't sometimes have its own problems.  And I didn't see anything strange about the statements that would cause me to think it was a joke.  Perhaps more friendly questions about what exactly was meant might clarify the issue. 

I do personally from my own perspective like having things out on the table.  That does not mean I will agree with every single thing that gets put on the table, and I also can see advantages to the other route of there being less of the overt claims, which can lead if done well to a much more orderly and controlled dessemination of information.  But if bragging is allowed, then I can see who likes to brag, people have the freedom to hang it all out on the line if they want.  And if someone has some advice or observation, they can feel free to give it because here it is allowed for anyone to give advice, not just Daniel or the chosen few or whatever.  Everyone's humanity is on the table, complete with pride, greed, hiccups, confusions, mistakes, changing of the mind, etc, and lots of varying information, but there also can be a lot more overt argueing.   

The flip side if if someone comes here, that person will be faced with a more bare and raw version of humanity and will be more tested to learn how to handle it with equanimity and compassion.  It's much easier to stay with equanimity if everyone says things one thinks is right then if people are over here regularly stomping on toes and poking at sore spots.  But I still think that if one chooses to come here, it's a bit like going into a lions den, and if you do, it makes no sense to complain that there are a lot of unruly lions around.  The challenge is in my opinion ONLY for each individual to learn composure despite any lions and roaring present both as a the only way to learn and also because it is safer to not allow oneself to gut sucked into the lions' game.  

A person can come here and point out all day how lots of other people are not acting like he/she thinks the Buddha would act or said we should act.  I could probably spend all day pointing my finger at nonBuddhaly activities of others until I get severe finger strain, but that will not help me one single bit.  The only thing that helps me is to point that finger back at myself all day (complete with an equal ton of finger strain) and take responsibility for my own activities and ask if THOSE activities are Buddha like or not and if not, why not and what areas do I need to work on more?  There's plenty of rich material for me to work with there and worrying about other people's either perceived or real shortcomings just distracts from the huge task at hand of fixing my own crap.  Can you imagine how much progress we could all make if we spent as much time carefully delineating and enumerating and mapping our own logic errors as much as we do with other peoples'?  ;-P
-Eva  

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 1:08 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Well, if that's how you see me, then there isn't much to talk about. Is it ironic that you seem confident in your judgements of my character based on your interpretations of what I've typed...? I've met with you in real life and you come across as a very sensitive, kind person who is open minded and slow to make firm judgements. You've mentioned before (I can't remember where) that you can go down a rabit hole on the interwebs with some of your interactions online, and I respectfully submit this may be one such instance.

Why not take a more generous and open approach to interacting online? Particularly when, IRL, you seem perfectly capable of not being so darn sure of the boxes you are putting others in?

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 1:22 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
Why not take a more generous and open approach to interacting online? Particularly when, IRL, you seem perfectly capable of not being so darn sure of the boxes you are putting others in?

Here is a box you have about another person: insisting on "snarky", being so darn sure you're being boxed. You could apply your thoughts to yourself, here, Jake; read all of my posts on the forum and ask who you have in your mind as less generous and less open-- you who use an avatar and perhaps share self-protectively.

Or realize that as you changed your post, "to clarify", I read and change, too.

You can hold whatever you want and inherit that now, tonight, tomorrow morning, pass it on to your offspring. Me, I read your second post, therefore, you are Jake, changing actions/thoughts/conditions, quite similar to me. We do the best we can, I assume, in human conditions.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 1:36 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Honestly Katy, I have a hard time following your leaps! I don't know what you're trying to say about my 'self-protective avatar'? Do I even want to follow you down this strange psychobabble rabbithole? Nope, so I'll leave this thread with this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=dilbert+cartoon+about+internet+guy&biw=1102&bih=633&tbm=isch&imgil=66rdXjbjKRIoBM%253A%253Br8pLwR3b0_QrJM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fgranitegrok.com%25252Fblog%25252F2015%25252F06%25252Fdilbert-dick-from-the-internet&source=iu&pf=m&fir=66rdXjbjKRIoBM%253A%252Cr8pLwR3b0_QrJM%252C_&usg=__d9JaTSOrUIBNk2KfhY_LXTm1TqE%3D&ved=0CF4QyjdqFQoTCKz0lfz_sMgCFQV2PgodqpsEPA&ei=umUVVqyvMIXs-QGqt5LgAw#imgrc=66rdXjbjKRIoBM%3A&usg=__d9JaTSOrUIBNk2KfhY_LXTm1TqE%3D


 Like I said, you seem to be a totally rational person IRL, so I don't understand why your posts are so often antagonistic back and forths filled with red herrings, ad hominems and straw men. It's odd :\

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 2:51 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
It probably felt good for you to "leave the thread" raising the spector of the Dick of the Internet*, but I have no confidence that this quick gratification-insult is a resolution that works in the world when people sincerely work through differences and change.

_______
*Edit: In other words, if you felt there's "a more open and generous" way to be online, you yourself are not showing how it's done, rather you show to leave on and share vulgar insult. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 3:00 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Well Katy, I'm sorry my initial post got you so upset. But you can't work things out in the real world with projections in your own upset mind. You're too willing to attribute motivations to me to be able to engage in dialogue, which is what's amusingly presented in that cartoon. Not that we have much to dialogue about here. I wrote a simple post and you ran with it, in directions that I simply can't relate to. And you made it personal, about the 'Jake' you were projecting, which is a Jake I can't relate to. You've done this before. So haven't most of us long time members of the DhO, so I don't mean that to be an insult. I'm just suggesting you cut it out and let it go. When I first saw that cartoon the other day I laughed because I could see myself AND others in it. I think we all go there sometimes. That said, I humbly suggest you cut it out in this instance.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 3:14 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
Well Katy, I'm sorry my initial post got you so upset.

No worries, Jake. I pulled up the effect that it can have when you presented a straw man group of "implicit claimers" and stated that this group you imagined (with no evidence support, just a conclusion you brought) can bring "negative group dynamics" and "wierd passive aggressive shit". It can create an accusational enivornment where people feel they must claim one way or the other-- where they've joined a community that would need to know some framed status by which to be judged -- lest they fall into the "wierd passive aggressive shit" catergory you made.

Accusational environments have histories all over the world, groups compelling members to declare in/out. So I see them as worth noting when they happen here. 

So I read your adjusted/qualified reply and saw where you were coming from in that first notion. 


That said, I humbly suggest you cut it out in this instance.


Speaking up is not always easy. But shushing/cutting out is not a reliable practice either.

Best wishes.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 4:26 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Jeez Katy, whatever. You're perfectly capable of straightforward communication in English in real life. I just don't get what your problem is online. Your behavior on this thread is a great example of why I don't post much anymore.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 5:34 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
No worries, have at it. I meant to log off 8-9months ago, liking the mental still.

Maybe keep in mind people bring with them speech and style that you may not like, but there's a whole world out there of views. Every person who comes along that you don't like online can be your reason to inhibit you here and can be your or a collective 'enemy' blamed in order to bond a group, but, to me,  the practice has to be reliable in all of this nonsense and beyond it. : ) Maybe refrain from pressing the "Dick of the Internet" button-- how does that work in your life?

Your sentences got challenged, that's all. You clarified. I read and understood (see the post with "Mm-hm").


People are changing all the time. No sense holding their noses to deemed-puddles you may not like-- unless you want you and yours to inherit that.*

I've met with you in real life and you come across as a very sensitive, kind person who is open minded and slow to make firm judgements.


Good to know. It was nice to meet you as well. 

Feel free to conclude or continue in the space. 

Best wishes.
__________
*I think I have done these things, too. I don't blame you or side with you, just see the humanness in it, training for better and worse, par for the course. So many people have "lost their cool" here. It's okay.  So it's been a great learning area with peers. To see the testiness and the effort is appreciation and compassion. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 5:46 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Yeah, there's just so much to do IRL and so little time. Thanks for efforting to tie it together and come back to some simple human clarity ;) Hitting the 'dick of the internet' button actually works reasonably well for me IRL on the rare occasions when it's necessary. Life is too short to spend it walking on eggshells around fragile egos. ETA: my own included. My best friends without exception have had occassion to call me on my shit. While it wasn't comfortable for me to hear at the time I'm honored they trusted the process (and, our friendship) enough to take that risk. And I've learned and grown because of it.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 7:03 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
Jake:
Life is too short to spend it walking on eggshells around fragile egos. ETA: my own included. My best friends without exception have had occassion to call me on my shit. While it wasn't comfortable for me to hear at the time I'm honored they trusted the process (and, our friendship) enough to take that risk. And I've learned and grown because of it.

This is how I would describe my friends.
Who else is going to give good feedback but those who know us/you/me, day in and day out in life: neighbors, family, friends, a community of peers.. Everyone learning. I haven't met anyone who knows everything best yet, starting in the mirror. 

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/7/15 8:21 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
katy steger,thru10.7.15 with thanks:
Well Katy, I'm sorry my initial post got you so upset.

No worries, Jake. I pulled up the effect that it can have when you presented a straw man group of "implicit claimers" and stated that this group you imagined (with no evidence support, just a conclusion you brought) can bring "negative group dynamics" and "wierd passive aggressive shit".
See I just don't get why the idea that such a thing sometimes happens is such a controversial thing to say. 

It can create an accusational enivornment where people feel they must claim one way or the other-- where they've joined a community that would need to know some framed status by which to be judged -- lest they fall into the "wierd passive aggressive shit" catergory you made.
I also don't get why you took it to that conclusion which is rather extreme, from him saying sometimes there can be passive aggressive stuff from not claiming to you saying lots of people will feel pressured to claim (apparently because some claimed? or because there may be some passive aggressive stuff?).  I don't think he was saying that everyone who does not claim is automatically passive aggressive, just that it sometimes happens and the avoidance of which is one benefit of claiming.  
-Eva

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/8/15 4:48 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
why I don't post much anymore.

That is a shame. I'd like to read more of your posts. People's reactions say more about them than you. 

Recently I was learning about a modular view of the mind. It might be useful in relation to your insight. We sometimes refer to things that are unconcsious/sub-conscious as if there is a unified conscious entity that "sits on top" of that. The modular view of the mind claims the conscious mind is dominated by various "modules" at different times. So for example the person who is not making claims has a particular module dominating while they are thinking about whether they should make claims. That module may tell a story that they have no claims to make and do not have implicit claims either. When a different module is dominant they may be conscious of implicit claims so enforce a hierarchy. The environment can influence which modules dominate, so for example IRL and online may influence which module is in control.

In this view behavior can seem contradictory because we project the notion of a single coherent consciousness onto others. But I suspect you would agree that we don't have a single coherent consciousness. 

I quite like this explanation because I find it hard to believe people are not conscious of a pattern like implicit claims. This modular system suggests they could be conscious of them in certain situations and not others. An alternative view of putting a lot more things into the category of "sub-conscious" does not seem to map as well to what I observe (but there is certainly a lot of sub-conscious stuff too).

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/8/15 9:54 AM as a reply to Mark.
It's always interesting to observe the degradation of a thread to the point of no return.  A true learning experience it is, witnessing the arising of unskillful behaviors, especially in those who claim certain attainments on the path.  It demonstrates how long the path to purification really is, that despite attainments in meditation, there is still much work to be done in the way of ridding the mind of attachment, hinderances and harmful tendencies.  It also serves as a reminder of what not to do in these situations.  Thanks!

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/8/15 10:10 AM as a reply to Mark.
I like that model, Mark. It jives with my experience. My pet theory is that 'state specific memory' has something to do with this.

Each module comes bundled with it's own memories.

Personally I think of this is Jungian/Psychosynthesis lingo, in terms of 'sub-personalities'. Personality (a habitual way of thinking, feeling and acting) is clearly multiplicitous and complex like weather. There are patterns at various levels (daily weather, seasonal, climatological, etc) which are continually coming into and out of play and which are also simultaneously operative within closer or further proximity to the central patch of explicit consciousness.

I've found this approach useful when mixed with Jung's understanding of the psyche, so that the major facets he identified (ego, anima(us), shadow, Self, plus superego, id etc.) are each mulitplicitous and complex. The mix of such a depth psychological approach to personality with contempative insights into impermanence, openness/emptiness, etc. alongside systems and complexity theories and group dynamics & sociology makes a surprisingly intuitive and flexible real-world set of interlocking approaches to daily life stuff which balances deepening of contemplative insights with ongoing developments of intra- and inter-personal maturity emoticon

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/8/15 12:00 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
I like that model, Mark. It jives with my experience. My pet theory is that 'state specific memory' has something to do with this.

Each module comes bundled with it's own memories.



I've heard the idea that memory is reinterpreted every time we recall something. In that case the memory could be quite different depending on which module is recalling it. It would also make sense that some memories are only accessed by some modules. I imagine the brain is efficient in not storing duplicates, I guess the reinterpretation is also for the sake of efficiency.



Personally I think of this is Jungian/Psychosynthesis lingo, in terms of 'sub-personalities'. Personality (a habitual way of thinking, feeling and acting) is clearly multiplicitous and complex like weather. There are patterns at various levels (daily weather, seasonal, climatological, etc) which are continually coming into and out of play and which are also simultaneously operative within closer or further proximity to the central patch of explicit consciousness.



It is a nice way of pointing at the complexity of the situation. The module mind gets away from the "central patch of explicit consciousness". Similar but more like the patch of consciousness moves as well as the weather system! It resonates with concepts of non-self and emptiness.



I've found this approach useful when mixed with Jung's understanding of the psyche, so that the major facets he identified (ego, anima(us), shadow, Self, plus superego, id etc.) are each mulitplicitous and complex. The mix of such a depth psychological approach to personality with contempative insights into impermanence, openness/emptiness, etc. alongside systems and complexity theories and group dynamics & sociology makes a surprisingly intuitive and flexible real-world set of interlocking approaches to daily life stuff which balances deepening of contemplative insights with ongoing developments of intra- and inter-personal maturity emoticon

Likewise I think Jung's approach is really interesting, the concept of shadow work was an eye opener for me.

Another angle that I've become interested in recently in non-buddhism. It can be heavy going but led to concepts like Marx's Alienation and inverted consciousness, the mind as socially constructed i.e. inter-subjective even when we experience it as subjective, viewing history from the opposite timeline i.e. as a series of unpredictable events rather than reading backwards from the present and overlaying notions like progress (written by those who benefit from the "progress"). Fun collecting paradigms emoticon

What is intra-personal ?

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/9/15 9:02 AM as a reply to Mark.
re:. Jake . (10/8/15 10:10 AM as a reply to Mark.)
and Mark (10/8/15 12:00 PM as a reply to . Jake ..)

(This goes off into some perhaps diversionary depth, but at the end are some specific questions, if you want to skip to there.)

Bringing up Jungian understanding, "intra- and inter-personal maturity", … "Fun collecting paradigms", …

leads me to venture here the notion, from one Alexander Piatagorsky (a phenomenologist), that a (certain kind of) Buddhist perspective can be seen as neither philosophical nor psychological, per se, but rather as "meta-philosophical", and/or "meta-psychological". That is, some sense of radical mindfulness ('insight' perhaps better) understands the play of the mind in both conceptual (philosophy) and personal (psychology) perspectives of mental activity.   

The conceptual / philosophical aspect is easy to recognize in, for instance, the work of some more academic writers (Paul Griffiths, for example), who insist on analyzing, in effect judging conceptual systems extracted from Buddhist teaching (both original/early and derived/commentarial) – specifically, intentionally ("scientifically", perhaps) divorced from any experiential (call it pragmatic) involvement whatsoever. (Griffiths: "One can not be a Buddhologist and at the same time a Buddhist".)

The psychological aspect is more subtle, as it does allow for direct experience, but typically revolves around, is sort of bound to the personal level of experience. Problematic, I find, that so many of the modernist Western Buddhist teachers (e.g. in the Insight/Vipassana Movement) are professionally psychologists, and approach dharma through the lens of their psychology. (Jack Kornfield pretty much summarizes his entire approach as "Buddhist psychology".)

Background is that studying Jung back in the 1960's was formative in my early education, but later I ran across a cogent analysis (by Thomas Cleary) of Jung's (and Richard Wilhem's) translation and interpretation of "The Secret of the Golden Flower", to the effect that neither of them were able to appreciate the depths of that treatise (a rather hardcore treatise of Taoist-Buddhist meditative technique and attainment), but got stuck, in fact wallowed, in interpreting it in judeo-christian psychological terms – in historical hindsight proto-"new age" terms.

For instance, Jung's end-point was "individuation", a sort of both intra- and inter-personal maturity (to borrow terms from discussion here), not unlike some (by no means all) renditions of secular (c.f. Stephen Batchelor's "eudaimonia") and pragmatic Buddhist interpretations. That is to say, as distinct from a more radical liberation, release, "unbinding" sort of goal that goes beyond personal issues.

(BTW, Dharmasar (as in the OP guy) somewhere in my scan of his writing, in DhO 2013 and 2015 and elsewhere, mentions interest in Osho/Rajneesh and his extensive analysis of "The Secret of the Golden Flower", which, however, being from a Brahmanic, Hindu standpoint, falls into the Jung-Wilhelm kind of interpretation and misses the Buddhist part, which Cleary convincingly demonstrates to at be the core of that treatise.)

A couple of lighter questions:
. Jake . "mulitplicitous and complex" That 1st word isn't clear to me. Are the two words meant as more or less synonymous?

Mark
"What is intra-personal ?" I'll venture an answer, that this has to do with the workings within a single individual's experience of the various facets, models,… experienced in one's own mind – id, ego, super-ego, shadow, etc. Both Steven Levine, and Than-Geof have used the metaphor that what goes on in one's mental life can be compared to a committee of sub-personalities (and mindfulness helps get a handle on that). Whereas "inter-personal" involves multiple individuals. Related to "trans-personal"?

Going way back to the OP here, and . Jake .'s entry point:
. Jake .
do you mean something like an interplay of actual 'claims', and 'implicit' or 'non-claiming' critiques where the latter are perhaps in fact seeming to effectively (implicitly) claim some kind of "authority" in the matter? That I find in my own reactions to some such claims and discussions can s/t sneak in.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/9/15 9:16 AM as a reply to Mark.
(ETA: cross-posted with chris) @ Mark: Intra-personal means between a person and themselves. So intra-personal maturation is a process of increasing connection-and-differentiation of the modes of operation of a given person. I like your point that the 'patch of consciousness' is itself unstable. It's impermanent and unfixed.

this brings up the question of strategies for wellness. One strategy might be trying to batten down all the hatches and enforce stability through structure (restricting behavior, feeling, thought). Another strategy might be openning up to complexity and letting structures/gestalts come and go more spontaneously. The latter seems to tend more towards what's called in systems theory 'meta-stability' which is the ability of a system to maintain continuity or integrity throughout structural change/transformation. This area is where I find the overlap and potential synergy of maturing and awakening to be particularly vivid.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/9/15 9:25 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
hi chris!

multiplicitous : not sure if it's even a word. I invented a word that I should have used which I can explain better: myriadic. Recal a 'myriad' refers to an uncountable number. Literally 'ten thousand' I think. Think of the Chinese using 'the ten thousand things' similarly to 'myriad' as an uncountable number, maybe even- all things (ta panta in greek).

Here's my concept: every 'thing' is myriadic. Everything has countless facets and connections etc. Things obviously have integrity in that they are what they are (i.e., a tree is a tree). However they clearly are also open in that they couldn't be what they are without things that they aren't )soil, atmosphere, water, sunlight). So really a tree isn't 'a tree' as a solid thing that simply is itself. It's a myriad (it's uncountable, immeasurable). That doesn't stop various beings from measuring it according to their needs and desires. This is just me trying to cut a conceptual path between 'objectivity' and 'subjectivity' as boring old absolutes.

ETA: obviously just my attempt to rephrase Hua Yen thought, Indra's net, etc.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/10/15 6:41 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
@Chris @Jake thanks for clarififying on intra-personal.

. Jake .:

this brings up the question of strategies for wellness. One strategy might be trying to batten down all the hatches and enforce stability through structure (restricting behavior, feeling, thought). Another strategy might be openning up to complexity and letting structures/gestalts come and go more spontaneously. The latter seems to tend more towards what's called in systems theory 'meta-stability' which is the ability of a system to maintain continuity or integrity throughout structural change/transformation. This area is where I find the overlap and potential synergy of maturing and awakening to be particularly vivid.


The relation you see with systems theory is clearer after reading the above. Maybe I could stretch it to the notion of identity. Battening down the hatches is identifying strongly with some structure (even if implicit). Becoming less attached to particular identities means constant change but there is some coherence in the process when viewed over a life time. I tend to think of identity as a view, it might be closer to a meta-view.

Would be very interested to hear your definition of wellness.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/10/15 7:08 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
re: . Jake . (10/9/15 9:25 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)

"multiplicitous" does show-up in a google-search, but seems a neologism (new word), s/w fuzzy, and as a word is a bit clumsy.

"myriad" is more interesting.  As you (. Jake . ) point out, from Greek murioi , 10,000; plural of murios, innumerable; perhaps related to Greek plemura, plemuris , a flux, and Epic Greek muromai, I flow.*

Greek mythology starts with sky (Uranus) and earth (Gaia), whose daughter was Rhea (flow -- as in 'diarrhea'), who in turn was the mother of the Olympian goddesses and gods – Hestia, Hades (hell), Demeter (agriculture), Poseiden (sea-fareing), Hera (the queen), Zeus (the king), and then their children Athena (wisdom), Apollo (beauty), Ares (war), etc.

Flow, water as primal. Both a pre-Socratic and Lao Zi (DaoDeJing) emphasized that "water is the best". The flow of experience is primal, and with later evoluton of cognitive refinements, different mental processes, states get distinguished (like the pantheon of gods with diverse specific functions). Amidst the flow of life, the mind created things to anchor it's identities and machinations: concepts, language, logic. Things to build with, and to cling to, and civilization was off and running. And that, in turn, gave rise to various religious teachers to rediscover and point people to an understanding of what it's all about, and how to avoid being enslaved by it all.

(A cultural-historical gloss on your paragraph expanding on 'myriad')

* According to this wonderful book, Origins – A Short  [972 pages?]  Etymological Dictionary of
Modern English
, by Eric Partridge (1958)

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
10/10/15 7:18 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Flow, water as primal. Both a pre-Socratic and Lao Zi (DaoDeJing) emphasized that "water is the best". The flow of experience is primal, and with later evoluton of cognitive refinements, different mental processes, states get distinguished (like the pantheon of gods with diverse specific functions). Amidst the flow of life, the mind created things to anchor it's identities and machinations: concepts, language, logic. Things to build with, and to cling to, and civilization was off and running. And that, in turn, gave rise to various religious teachers to rediscover and point people to an understanding of what it's all about, and how to avoid being enslaved by it all.


I like a lot of aspects of this summary, particularly the part about religious teachers.

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
11/11/15 11:18 AM as a reply to Noah.
Clearly the best way to clear this whole mess up is to travel to Sri Lanka to meet with and study under Ven. Bhikkhu Nanananda and discuss whether he has any direct disciples who are authorized to teach now and when he has given teaching up. Until then, study under Bhikkhu Nanananda and learn the dhamma and more about this lineage that Dhammsaro purports to have attained awakening from. I can't believe i'm the first to say this.

/End thread 

emoticon

RE: It Has Happened
Answer
11/15/15 2:08 PM as a reply to Mick Swan.
Dharmasar Thero has removed all of his content from youtube.  He had weeks worth of video courses, now just an empty channel.
His wordpress site is blank.
This isn't the first time he has looked for students to invest time an energy into learning what he's teaching, only to suddenly vanish and leave people wondering wtf.