Burning karma for others

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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

Burning karma for others

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Howdy folks,

I was talking to a friend (whose 4th path was verified by a pragmatic dharma teacher) and the matter of burning karma for others came up. He said he knows and have met 6 other people from the pragmatic dharma scene who are at this stage (4th path). I don't know how many 4th paths there are here but my question is mostly aimed at them or 3rd path'ers. Actually I am not sure what 3rd path means but I suspect it refers to the higher bhumis in the bhumi model that I am familiar with.

So, taking karma from others and burning it up. Based on my own experience "taking" is not actually a correct term. "Receiving" is more fitting. I remember this natural mechanism of karma burning becoming active very soon after my stream entry, a couple of years ago. I remember a few occasions when passing tantric initiations to people that a significant energetic charge shifted from their bodies to mine. This charge of karmic energy lasted for some minutes before it crumbled like dry clay. And so this charge was neutralised and the mind of the student became more clear and open than before. Nowadays, this happens often, on weekly basis, both with my "students", and other people I know as well as with people who I don't know. Sometimes people thank me for "taking and burning their karmas" but it is not something to be thanked about. It is a natural mechanism between more evolved and less evolved persons, like "bodhisattva motor" or something like that.

I'd like to ask if any people here have had similar experiences.

Thanks,

Baba



Robert, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

Posts: 100 Join Date: 5/8/15 Recent Posts
I've noticed something like that but I always wondered whether it was the latent "pain body" in me that was somehow matching the frequency state of another pain body and that produced the specific sense of "squirminess" and unease. That unease can be seen in the other person/body as well; the facial expression, turning the head away etc. Like, this feeling might come up all of a sudden and behind a corner someone appears, all angry, fearful, reserved or whatever.  And this sense wasn't there prior to the encounter with this specific person (but maybe it was dormant, not sure). But yeah with these people it comes up and lasts for a few minutes. I also thought that maybe feeling other people's energy state is due to some kind of a fascination and having something to do with identity that hadn't been recognized. But I've heard of that karma burn phenomena before from a couple of teachers/speakers as well. Most of the time it seems to happen without any extra flavors of difficulty though, not affecting the stillness and clarity but seemingly somehow affecting other people.

Not to make it a big deal though. I don't really care whether it happens or not. Except that if there is identification in the mix.The trajectory "here" seems to be to expose the false and not make a big deal out of it, and not to construct new self images and ideas.
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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Robert:
I've noticed something like that but I always wondered whether it was the latent "pain body" in me that was somehow matching the frequency state of another pain body and that produced the specific sense of "squirminess" and unease. That unease can be seen in the other person/body as well; the facial expression, turning the head away etc. Like, this feeling might come up all of a sudden and behind a corner someone appears, all angry, fearful, reserved or whatever.  And this sense wasn't there prior to the encounter with this specific person (but maybe it was dormant, not sure). But yeah with these people it comes up and lasts for a few minutes. I also thought that maybe feeling other people's energy state is due to some kind of a fascination and having something to do with identity that hadn't been recognized.


But I've heard of that karma burn phenomena before from a couple of teachers/speakers as well. Most of the time it seems to happen without any extra flavors of difficulty though, not affecting the stillness and clarity but seemingly somehow affecting other people.

Not to make it a big deal though. I don't really care whether it happens or not. Except that if there is identification in the mix.The trajectory "here" seems to be to expose the false and not make a big deal out of it, and not to construct new self images and ideas.

Hi Robert,

I divided your post to separate sections.

I know healers, for example, do get affected by people's energy which is not "burning their karma" in the sense that this would have a lasting effect but that is another discussion. When an adept burns other people's karma this charge of dualistic energy doesn't affect one's own mind state, that is, stillness and clarity remains.

Yes, I didn't mean burning karma for others is a "big deal", it's just an occurrence, something natural between likeminded people. I suppose one thing is a "requirement" for this to happen. That is sincerity and honesty, openness.

I am not educated on theravada so I don't know if this happens there/here but in tantric traditions teachers/lamas do burn their students karma. This has been said numerous times by numerous people, both in hinduism as well as buddhism.
Chris J Macie:
What is meant here by "karma"?

For that matter, what is meant by "my stream entry"?

"Stream entry" is specifically a term used in the Buddhist sutta-s,
but from your numerous writings (duplicated back and forth on DhO and
your blog) and the portrayal of your background and development, it's
clear your using this term is NOT in the Buddhist sense. It's even
stated as "MY stream entry".

"Karma" has a wild variety of meanings. Yours is certainly not the same as the Pali "kamma" (used by the Buddha). And the idea of affecting it in another person is contrary to the Buddha's usage.

What definition are you assuming?

Here karma refers to charge of dualistic energy. "Taking on the karma of others or students" is a widely used expression. Perhaps not in theravada or zen, but in tantric buddhism fo sho.

Go here, for my definition of stream entry: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5601192

I knew someone would get tangled up in "my stream entry" so I left it waiting, ha.
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Chris J Macie, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

Posts: 863 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
What is meant here by "karma"?

For that matter, what is meant by "my stream entry"?

"Stream entry" is specifically a term used in the Buddhist sutta-s, but from your numerous writings (duplicated back and forth on DhO and your blog) and the portrayal of your background and development, it's clear your using this term is NOT in the Buddhist sense. It's even stated as "MY stream entry".

"Karma" has a wild variety of meanings. Yours is certainly not the same as the Pali "kamma" (used by the Buddha). And the idea of affecting it in another person is contrary to the Buddha's usage.

What definition are you assuming?
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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Kim Katami

I was talking to a friend (whose 4th path was verified by a pragmatic dharma teacher) and the matter of burning karma for others came up.

This friend of mine, who shall go anonymous, and who has a theravada-training history, said among our discussion:

"I have had the experience of people's energy being absorbed and 'burnt off'. There is an awareness that you are taking on something but not being consumed by it - yes its like a contraction or a tension which can be quite misleading at times as far as believing its my own energy so I usually try to investigate it if I can."

If there other such people here, do pitch in. In case you wish to remain anonymous as well, PM or email me: kimkatami@hotmail.com



Robert, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

Posts: 100 Join Date: 5/8/15 Recent Posts
I like Eckhart Tolle's concept of the pain body. It could be seen as accumulated pain/suffering in the cells, dna (so it's not only accumulated pain of this particular lifetime but is passed on through ancestors), which is dormant most of the time but needs to enhance, or at least keep up, its sense of separate identity by getting activated once in a while and trying to create mental-emotional pain in numerous forms and situations. It also tries to hook other people in and get them to react. Somehow it can not hide when it's in the presence of someone without identity in the painbody. It comes up to try and get a reaction but when there's no resistance, nothing to touch, it weakens and that particular "tentacle" that was trying to grab the other into a trance gets transformed into presence. There are numerous tentacles though (just an illustration) and they will need to be met with nonresistance too until there's no identification with pain anymore. And the person with the pain body needs to do it in the long run.
    
Anyway, occasional negative thoughts might pop up to try and see if there is a reaction but as such can have no effect on the human-being. The link between the felt contraction and the negative thoughts is broken. The thoughts don't trigger that contraction anymore into a finite point in space and time and whose identity revolves around fear, lack and grief. Grief usually looking like irritation, frustration, anger or even hatred. Underneath those there is sorrow and the sorrow comes from a certain core belief that has not been recognized. That core belief started usually in early childhood due to certain events. Adopting the belief in order to get a sense of control over the overwhelming situation and to numb the pain that was experienced. This latter description is about how the ego (sense of separation) started playing, and the pain body is the aspect of ego that looks for pain, resistance and suffering in general in order to keep the sense of separate identity in grief going on.

Oh yeah, and not to say that momentarily anger (different from hate) or sadness (different from resentful grief) etc. could not happen even without the painbody involved. But as such those emotions aren't a problem. They don't have to leave any residue in the psyche. They just come up and burn, instead of sinking back in the psyche. So to speak.
Eva Nie, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
Robert, that seems to approximately jive with what I've seen too.
-Eva
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Chris J Macie, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

Posts: 863 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Kim Katami(3/3/16 6:15 AM as a reply to Kim Katami)

”This friend of mine, who shall go anonymous, and who has a theravada-training history, said among our discussion:

[This is the same person as in: "I was talking to a friend (whose 4th path was verified by a pragmatic dharma teacher) and the matter of burning karma for others came up."?]

"
I have had the experience of people's energy being absorbed and 'burnt off'. There is an awareness that you are taking on something but not being consumed by it - yes its like a contraction or a tension which can be quite misleading at times as far as believing its my own energy so I usually try to investigate it if I can.""

Sensitivity to something in others, a sense of taking it on in oneself, and perhaps "burning it off", can be said of certain practices, but where the burning-if-off pertains to the effect in the person taking it on. In other situations (certain Daoist practices, or supposedly in "medical qigong") it is said the practitioners doing this can affect the person taken-on-from.

In neither case has this anything to do with Theravadan understanding of "kamma" (Pali variant of Sanskrit "karma"), which has to do with an individual's own intention and action, and it's consequences (i.e. responibility). In Theravada, no-one can affect another person's kamma – as explicit in the definition of the 4thBrahmavihara, "equanimity". This follows the 1st 3 Brahmaviharas: goodwill, compassion, and sympathetic joy; in the sense that one can wish goodwill to others, express compassion for them, or participate in their joy, but, in the end, can not directly affect or change others' actions-intentions; hence equanimity with regard to that fact.

In the quotation from your "friend … who has a theravada-training-history", there's no mention of kamma (or karma), nor that there is an effect on the other person. He/she appears to refer only to the consequences in him/her-self – being consumed by it, or investigating it as his/her own. If there is the belief there that this energy is kamma/karma, and that one can burn-it-off for the other person, than the "theravada-training history" was apparently for nought.

Theravadan kamma has nothing to do with "dualistic energy", whatever that may mean.

Also, agreeing with Pawel K that your "stream entry" has nothing do to with the original Theravadan meaning, which will be dealt with at another time.

The phenomena touched on by Robert appears to more resemble "magic", insofar as "it also tries to hook other people in and get them to react", when the trying to affect others is intentional; further being "white" or "black" magic according to wholesome or unwholesome intention driving it.
Robert, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

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Chris J Macie:
re
The phenomena touched on by Robert appears to more resemble "magic", insofar as "it also tries to hook other people in and get them to react", when the trying to affect others is intentional; further being "white" or "black" magic according to wholesome or unwholesome intention driving it.

It was meant to be a description of how it seems in everyday life. Like being with a person that you know. They are their normal selves but can become "possessed" in certain situations. Like becoming really passive aggressive for example, trying to get you to react subconsciously, and that triggers the aggression in you towards them (all this being a description of how it seems from the me/you dynamic). But that doesn't mean to imply that there is an actual possessing entity, or that that it has anything to do with magic. Just describing an aspect of the ego-dynamic. "Ego" referring to phenomena, like thoughts and sensations, that have self identification in them. Certain sensations that trigger extreme self-protection because those sensations are taken to be oneself. Which they aren't, it's mere phenomena.
Eva Nie, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
Robert:

It was meant to be a description of how it seems in everyday life. Like being with a person that you know. They are their normal selves but can become "possessed" in certain situations. Like becoming really passive aggressive for example, trying to get you to react subconsciously, and that triggers the aggression in you towards them (all this being a description of how it seems from the me/you dynamic). But that doesn't mean to imply that there is an actual possessing entity, or that that it has anything to do with magic. Just describing an aspect of the ego-dynamic. "Ego" referring to phenomena, like thoughts and sensations, that have self identification in them. Certain sensations that trigger extreme self-protection because those sensations are taken to be oneself. Which they aren't, it's mere phenomena.
Robert I think I see your general point at least.  (maybe).  From what I've seen, there is a constant push/pull between people based on their wants, needs, weaknesses, fears, etc.  So people can sometimes act very different in the presence of one person vs another or in the presence of one group vs another.  It's hard to describe but using a metaphor, it's like each person has various locks and keys that they carry.  If you meet a person that  has a key to your lock , then the fact that a certain behavior fits you and they have it inside them, suddenly that behavior may be illicited whereas they may not act like that with others.  So you see people showing all diff kinds of faces with diff people.  In that same way, I can have a strong effect on those around me just by changing my own inner self and not really showing much huge change on the outside, but will quickly change their behavior if I change what I think and feel on my inside.  On the negative side, sometimes if a person changes a lot, even for the better, some of the people around them may have fit and liked the old style person better and try to stop you from changing.  In a similar way, if someone reaches out with a favorite key and cannot find a lock to fit it inside me anywhere, then that behavior (key) will quickly loose energy and wither.  The person may then abandon the attempt and act suddenly very different or that person may just leave and search for someone else to try it on.  Seems like a lot of this tends to happen a bit underneath regular consciousness so people aren't often aware of it much.  That  has been my perspective anyway.
-Eva 
Eva Nie, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
Chris you know more history, definitions, and general data on various texts and writings than I will EVER know, LOL!  At times like these, that can be especially helpful on this board to give a wider perspective on things. 
-Eva
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Chris M, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

Posts: 33 Join Date: 1/8/13 Recent Posts
So when Angulimala, a mass murderer but now an Arahant, returned from alms round after being abused by the town’s population, complained of his burden to the Buddha, the Buddha’s advice was that this was the result of his karma, his past deeds and that the only thing he could do was be resolute and to bare it. The Buddha didn’t ‘burn his karma’ for him, because this is not even a possibility. Karma is always going to ripen (vipaka), and even for the Buddha karma still ripened. The results of karma can never be evaded but may be lessened, and only way to do this is by practicing Dharma. However, it’s entirely up to the individual to do this for themselves; no one else can do it for you.

Another point I’d like to mention in regards to karma more generally is that there seems to be a different understanding placed on it in Hinduism and often in Vajrayana too. Karma seems to be framed by and have emphasis placed on the result, which is actually not karma but vipaka. In the early discourses, the Buddha was quite emphatic and succinct in defining it as intention: "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."

From my experience the placement of the emphasis on the intention side as opposed to the consequence side, seems to lead to a difference in the way the practice unfolds. I think it’s important to have a clear understanding about what the Buddha meant about Karma. There is no mention of ‘burning of karma’ by gurus that I can recall.

 
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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Chris M
Another point I’d like to mention in regards to karma more generally is that there seems to be a different understanding placed on it in Hinduism and often in Vajrayana too. Karma seems to be framed by and have emphasis placed on the result, which is actually not karma but vipaka. 

Thanks Chris. I realise it was a mistake to use the term "karma" on a mostly theravada-oriented forum because it affected the point being discussed about.

But yeah, if by karma we mean a dualistic energy which to some degree or in some way hinders or binds the mind of the student, it surely happens that gurus/bodhisattvas take on some of this energy, not all of it but some every now and then, to help their friends. My teacher did it. I experience it. And so does the gentleman, my theravada-friend who was mentioned earlier, and many others. Pity that more people haven't chimed in on this.


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Chris M, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Burning karma for others

Posts: 33 Join Date: 1/8/13 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:
Chris M
Another point I’d like to mention in regards to karma more generally is that there seems to be a different understanding placed on it in Hinduism and often in Vajrayana too. Karma seems to be framed by and have emphasis placed on the result, which is actually not karma but vipaka. 

Thanks Chris. I realise it was a mistake to use the term "karma" on a mostly theravada-oriented forum because it affected the point being discussed about.

But yeah, if by karma we mean a dualistic energy which to some degree or in some way hinders or binds the mind of the student, it surely happens that gurus/bodhisattvas take on some of this energy, not all of it but some every now and then, to help their friends. My teacher did it. I experience it. And so does the gentleman, my theravada-friend who was mentioned earlier, and many others. Pity that more people haven't chimed in on this.



I'm not denying the experiences you've described. I think there maybe some confusion as whether it is karma and its ripening though.

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