kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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Malcolm, modified 5 Years ago.

kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

Posts: 24 Join Date: 5/14/16 Recent Posts
In 1996 I was attending a meditation retreat in Bodhgaya and had been "letting everything inside and outside be exactly as it is" as instructed for several days.  While waiting around for the evening program a baby started to cry outside whereupon a veritable lightning bolt of pain exploded out of my chest with the force of ten thousand breaking human hearts or all the pain of the human world at once.  I can't properly describe the force of this energy - truly like a bolt of lightning - that big.  Surprisingly, this huge pain was instantly met with an equally great or greater love causing both to "burn" incandescently like a single flame and two continuous streams of tears to flow for about 20 minutes. 

Weird as it might sound the whole thing seemed eminently "good", not the least bad - as if a god chose to experience themselves in my body.

A supposedly enlightened zen person also attending the retreat strongly suggested this was like her own satori and when I asked a Tibetan geshe about it years later he said "that only has to happen once".

I have had hundreds of other "big" experiences (including at least 1 bona fide miracle) but wasn't convinced I was in any way "done" until about a month ago when I was contemplating my basic understanding of what the physical world was in relation to "my" mind , "god" , etc. and a basic log jam just gave way - no physical universe, no "me" , no "god".  In fact there was no conception at all - yet the absolute completeness of that moment was certain.  Since that time I have been experiencing several telltale symptoms like spontaneous bliss , "one-mindedness" with others, etc.  - but most importantly (to me) thoughts don't represent "me" anymore - as if I've seen how a magician's trick is done and can't be fooled again.

This is all a little difficult to describe and I'm reluctant to go on too far without getting a sense of who is "out there" ... so tear me to pieces or whatever ...

p.s.  in case it matters, I've begun reading the MCTB ebook today and using that criteria of what insight practice is I've been hard at it day and night for decades!
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Noah, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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Malcolm:

In 1996 I was attending a meditation retreat in Bodhgaya and had been "letting everything inside and outside be exactly as it is" as instructed for several days.  While waiting around for the evening program a baby started to cry outside whereupon a veritable lightning bolt of pain exploded out of my chest with the force of ten thousand breaking human hearts or all the pain of the human world at once.  I can't properly describe the force of this energy - truly like a bolt of lightning - that big.  Surprisingly, this huge pain was instantly met with an equally great or greater love causing both to "burn" incandescently like a single flame and two continuous streams of tears to flow for about 20 minutes.  


I think in MCTB terms the initial experience you described would be the a&p, which is 0.5 path, and a very important opening.

using that criteria of what insight practice is I've been hard at it day and night for decades!


Awesome to hear about the spirit behind your practice.  I'd like to hear more about it!


I have had hundreds of other "big" experiences (including at least 1 bona fide miracle) but wasn't convinced I was in any way "done" until about a month ago when I was contemplating my basic understanding of what the physical world was in relation to "my" mind , "god" , etc. and a basic log jam just gave way


I consider the true attainment of 'doneness' incredibly rare (like a small handful of humans alive today), in that it would be equated with full Buddhahood.  All chakras palpably open, all psychodynamics untied, every sense door full spectrum at all times,  maybe siddhis??, maybe extra-dimensional travel??, somewhat burned out genetic mechanisms, etc.  

Regardless of what it was, I think it is wonderful that you have discovered this positivity.  Savor the joy!
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Malcolm, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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Noah: Awesome to hear about the spirit behind your practice.  I'd like to hear more about it!

I vacillated between a kind of Vedanta-esque self inquiry / Dzogchen primordial awareness / moment-to-moment mindfulness of everything possible to the best of my ability while carrying on ordinary life (although a severely simplified one) for about 40 years now. Although this doesn't qualify as practice I was also driven to study a lot about religions, mystical systems, philosophy, etc. but always with a view to how it could inform my actual exploration.  I've never once doubted there was something very important to "get" , understand , whatever ...

Why did all this start and stay so strong?  perhaps it was the NDE at age 18 immediately prefigured by a massive mandala of rainbow colored light eminating around my eyes as witnessed and described by 2 other people present before I told them what I was seeing - then BOOM ,  life review in reverse , field of white light, beings made from light , etc.  That kind of thing can get you going I guess...
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Noah, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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Sweet!  Thanks for sharing.
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Malcolm, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

Posts: 24 Join Date: 5/14/16 Recent Posts
Noah: 

I consider the true attainment of
'doneness' incredibly rare (like a small handful of humans alive today),
in that it would be equated with full Buddhahood.  All chakras palpably
open, all psychodynamics untied, every sense door full spectrum at all
times,  maybe siddhis??, maybe extra-dimensional travel??, somewhat
burned out genetic mechanisms, etc.  


done was the wrong word , "certain" was more like it .  I had made a kind of life pledge that I wouldn't bother anyone else until I was certain although I knew I was already beyond many of the authors of books on my shelf - and now I'm certain - I've touched the bottom of the bottomless ocean - or it has broken through <--- that's maybe better,  like the way Meister Eckhart describes the birth of God in the soul as soon as it is vacated of everything else.

paradoxically perhaps , now I really want to cultivate !  partly because I know more progress can be made in a week now than could in a decade before and also because I realize what an extraordinary opportunity we all actually have to do this - anything else is just a tragic waste, isn't it?  what is my practical goal?   well, rainbow body would be nice!  (see previous post)
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Noah, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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Rainbow body would be awesome.  I like it.

My second-hand understanding is that these techniques for cultivation & further insight progress, which are widely kept secret, can be found in a select few resources/groups of teachers which are willing to skip preliminary practices.  IMO it should all be unlimitedly free, and all dharma teachers should have day jobs which supply their income, but wuddeva...
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Malcolm, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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Noah:
Rainbow body would be awesome.  I like it.

My second-hand understanding is that these techniques for cultivation & further insight progress, which are widely kept secret, can be found in a select few resources/groups of teachers which are willing to skip preliminary practices.  IMO it should all be unlimitedly free, and all dharma teachers should have day jobs which supply their income, but wuddeva...

well, as chance would have it the Sakya lineage recently published some of their previously secret teachings (Lamdre) traditionally requiring Hevajra Anuttara Tantra initiation/empowerment to even read , which luckily I have.  At the time I didn't understand much of what was involved but do distinctly remember during the 2nd night the whole room seemed to be made of light and much better focused than usual while being held steadily in one mind <--- if you don't experience that you'll just have to take my word for it.  This occured during an eye lock with Luding Khen Rimpoche who got really happy - kind of congratulating himself it seemed - rolling the dorje in his hand like a golfer just sinking a tough putt.  In retrospect I realize this mind state was rigpa and feel very very fortunate to have it directly introduced (pointed out?) in my mindstream although I didn't understand until many years later what it actually was.

I know an English engineer from those early old days who kept up the samaya vows and subsequently became enlightened (as I was told by the local lama before he died) and have recently re-connected with him.  I hope very much to benefit from his experience and understanding as I don't know who else to talk to.
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Dream Walker, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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Malcolm:
...thoughts don't represent "me" anymore...

This is all a little difficult to describe and I'm reluctant to go on too far without getting a sense of who is "out there" ... so tear me to pieces or whatever ...
What is it you are looking for here?
~D
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Malcolm, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

Posts: 24 Join Date: 5/14/16 Recent Posts
Dream Walker: :
What is it you are looking for here?
~D

I have no definite idea as I only stumbled onto this site last night - the prospect of interacting with anyone who has the slightest clue what I'm talking about was enough to start blabbing ...
T DC, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

Posts: 393 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
Malcolm:
In 1996 I was attending a meditation retreat in Bodhgaya and had been "letting everything inside and outside be exactly as it is" as instructed for several days.  While waiting around for the evening program a baby started to cry outside whereupon a veritable lightning bolt of pain exploded out of my chest with the force of ten thousand breaking human hearts or all the pain of the human world at once.  I can't properly describe the force of this energy - truly like a bolt of lightning - that big.  Surprisingly, this huge pain was instantly met with an equally great or greater love causing both to "burn" incandescently like a single flame and two continuous streams of tears to flow for about 20 minutes. 

Weird as it might sound the whole thing seemed eminently "good", not the least bad - as if a god chose to experience themselves in my body.

A supposedly enlightened zen person also attending the retreat strongly suggested this was like her own satori and when I asked a Tibetan geshe about it years later he said "that only has to happen once".

I have had hundreds of other "big" experiences (including at least 1 bona fide miracle) but wasn't convinced I was in any way "done" until about a month ago when I was contemplating my basic understanding of what the physical world was in relation to "my" mind , "god" , etc. and a basic log jam just gave way - no physical universe, no "me" , no "god".  In fact there was no conception at all - yet the absolute completeness of that moment was certain.  Since that time I have been experiencing several telltale symptoms like spontaneous bliss , "one-mindedness" with others, etc.  - but most importantly (to me) thoughts don't represent "me" anymore - as if I've seen how a magician's trick is done and can't be fooled again.

This is all a little difficult to describe and I'm reluctant to go on too far without getting a sense of who is "out there" ... so tear me to pieces or whatever ...

p.s.  in case it matters, I've begun reading the MCTB ebook today and using that criteria of what insight practice is I've been hard at it day and night for decades!

Wow!  Reading through the rest of this thread it sounds like you have had some remarkable experiences! 

When I was in high school, I had a glimpse of enlightenment experience.  After this, through dedicated meditation following the teachings in MCTB and Tibetan Buddhism, I reached final enlightenment.  On my way, I passed through many different stages of attainment in which my understanding of emptiness and ultimate reality was gradually refined until at last one day I broke fully through the dualistic barrier into an experience of complete oneness.  I say this because you asked about getting a sense of who was out there. 

As I said, there are many stages on the path to enlightenment; in begining stages we might see conceptuality to be empty of inherent reality, at a later stage we overcome any belief in conceptual solidity whatsoever.  It is hard to describe these things clearly and accurately because they are very subte, so when someone has major spiritual experiences, sometimes it can be hard to place them on the path.  It sounds like you have had major spiritual openings, but for me to understand them better in relation to my own experience it might help to ask a few questions.

When you talk about 'no me, no physical universe, and absolute completion of the universe', do you mean that there is still nothing you could call a self?  Do thoughts of self still arise, but are then seen to be empty (of self, or permenance or so on..) in relation to a greater universal truth you now percive?  Most importantly, how do you feel abou the path ahead?  Do you feel you have farther to go and more to acomplish?  Do you still feel there are subtle barriers that prevent you from a totally united perception of the oneness of reality?

I am very curious about this, and I hope this post helps.  Thanks for sharing your experiences!
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Malcolm, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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T_DC: When you talk about 'no me, no physical universe, and the absolute completeness of that moment was certain', do you mean that there is still nothing you could call a self?  Do thoughts of self still arise, but are then seen to be empty (of self, or permenance or so on..) in relation to a greater universal truth you now percive?  Most importantly, how do you feel abou the path ahead?  Do you feel you have farther to go and more to acomplish?  Do you still feel there are subtle barriers that prevent you from a totally united perception of the oneness of reality?

Nisargadatta was once asked if a sense of ego or personal self still arose and he said "of course but it's quickly seen through" or words to that effect and I won't claim more than that!   The breakthrough (if I can call it that) ended some basic belief in the way things are supposedly put together but because it was completely non-conceptual it is impossible for me to formulate exactly what or why or how , apart from the absolute certainty of it.  Since then everything seems really easy , obvious , as if all the spiritual path topics are somehow kind of corrolaries of that event.

I can well imagine this might seem preposterous to be claiming something based on what I can't even describe to myself - yet... "The yogin of the Great Symbol gains fulfillment in that which is no fulfillment, for its characteristic is the very absence of any characteristic."  <--- which says it very well I think.

As I said to Noah, paradoxically now I am really interested and motivated to cultivate - so yes there is a great deal to "accomplish" although I'm not sure what you mean by "barriers to the perception of the oneness of reality" as that wasn't really the issue (for me).  It had already been obvious for many years that the "outside" world was "inside" the mind so there was no gap to bridge.

...thank you sincerely for sharing with me too , it's a pleasure and honor to meet anyone seriously engaged in truth.

Speaking of truth, I wonder now if we all have a stream of imagination flowing through our minds that is sometimes believed and sometimes clearly seen to be imaginary.  There seems to be no stopping it although believing it can stop.  What do you think?
Derek, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

Posts: 326 Join Date: 7/21/10 Recent Posts
Sounds great. I would use the word "awakening," but as you may have discovered, there is no universally agreed upon terminology. 
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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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Hi Malcolm,

Interesting posts. You mention "1st bhumi" in the subject which made me think if by that you refer to bhumis as I have recently presented here ( I could be wrong of course). In case you'd like to hear my version of your presumed awakening, email me your face photo: kimkatami@hotmail.com. I can check it, if you want. After that we can take this discussion back to the forum. That is if you would like some privacy. I can check your photo here on board as well.
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Malcolm, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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Kim:  I had not heard about you or the bhumi mapping thing before.  I have sent you 3 photos taken today but they might not be clear enough...  I don't mind what you may care to say here about them but I would like you to delete the photos after viewing and not use them for any other reason , (like on your website or whatever).  hope that's OK...

many thanks,

Malcolm
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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

Posts: 700 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Malcolm:
Kim:  I had not heard about you or the bhumi mapping thing before.  I have sent you 3 photos taken today but they might not be clear enough...  I don't mind what you may care to say here about them but I would like you to delete the photos after viewing and not use them for any other reason , (like on your website or whatever).  hope that's OK...

many thanks,

Malcolm
Oh sorry about that then emoticon

The photos are clear enough and wonderful btw, got me smiling too. You are awakened, 1st bhumi in the Open Heart Bhumi Model, soon about to go 2nd. Maturation in bhumis after this feel like further awakenings within the awakened state. 
Malcolm:


I have had hundreds of other "big" experiences (including at least 1 bona fide miracle) but wasn't
convinced I was in any way "done" until about a month ago when I was
contemplating my basic understanding of what the physical world was in
relation to "my" mind , "god" , etc. and a basic log jam just gave way -
no physical universe, no "me" , no "god".  In fact there was no
conception at all - yet the absolute completeness of that moment was
certain.  Since that time I have been experiencing several telltale
symptoms like spontaneous bliss , "one-mindedness" with others, etc.  -
but most importantly (to me) thoughts don't represent "me" anymore - as
if I've seen how a magician's trick is done and can't be fooled again.

As one progresses experientially in nondualism "big experiences" vanish. At least this has been my experience. Now I don't experience anything anymore, ha. What you describe here sounds valid and relevant in regards to awakening.

Malcolm:

paradoxically perhaps , now I really
want to cultivate !  partly because I know more progress can be made in
a week now than could in a decade before and also because I realize
what an extraordinary opportunity we all actually have to do this -
anything else is just a tragic waste, isn't it?  what is my practical
goal?   well, rainbow body would be nice!  (see previous post)

Wonderful. All the best!
Rist Ei, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

Posts: 500 Join Date: 7/14/13 Recent Posts
AandP, arising and passing away. What happened is a sense-contact, and the following after thoughts feeling physical evidence is a delusion.

Same way seeing food and mouth starts water, its because of delusion too, there were a sense-contact.
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Malcolm, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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Rist Ei:
:  AandP, arising and passing away. What happened is a sense-contact, and the following after thoughts feeling physical evidence is a delusion.

Same way seeing food and mouth starts water, its because of delusion too, there were a sense-contact.

well... you might be right or perhaps just a tad presumptuous about your own abilities to judge other mindstreams at a distance of space and time.  thanks for your input.
Rist Ei, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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Malcolm:
Rist Ei:
:  AandP, arising and passing away. What happened is a sense-contact, and the following after thoughts feeling physical evidence is a delusion.

Same way seeing food and mouth starts water, its because of delusion too, there were a sense-contact.

well... you might be right or perhaps just a tad presumptuous about your own abilities to judge other mindstreams at a distance of space and time.  thanks for your input.
. Thats also AP, a thing what you can't control.
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Malcolm, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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[quote=Rist Ei:
]. Thats also AP, a thing what you can't control.

actually I was not disappointed with being rated only 1st bhumi !  :-)
 
Do you know what level of attainment you have?  please share... 
Rist Ei, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

Posts: 500 Join Date: 7/14/13 Recent Posts
MCTB 4th path attainment is the centerpoint back of the head open and you go through it first time. In order to do it forehead must be let go, attention drops into belly then you can see reality in real time and cultivate that and then at some point you will see centerpoint in front of you when you look at it you can cling to it with your mind and it then tries to suck you in, everything starts to go black, you get insight there how to resolve centerpoint, then you do it and then its done.

in order to forehead drop, you need to be able to switch dominat eye or nose whatever dualism at will, for that you need energy. Also that done you need to attain onepointed concentration on inner breath.

..something like that.

then you start figure how to get lower center point activated. Otherwise you will cling to dull emptiness. Then you won't anymore stop but just continue meditation opening centers more and gaining skill to do prior steps faster and more in groups.

*inner breath- thats when you become mindful(ordinary typical mindfulness) your inner breath stops and you can then try to grasp it with your mind so you can then see taht something is lacking or somehow you are not able to do it, so just continue cultivating it, one day you can. (also its a onetime event, it morpfs to something else because you going to see it from the outside when that center is unlocked).
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Malcolm, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: kensho ? satori ? 1st bhumi ? awakening ?

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guess I'll read the book , thanks

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