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Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles

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Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Qadis 5/17/16 5:14 PM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles bernd the broter 5/18/16 2:57 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles neko 5/18/16 4:19 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Noah 5/18/16 9:43 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Qadis 5/19/16 1:53 PM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles . Jake . 5/20/16 2:09 PM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Qadis 5/21/16 9:59 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Nicky 5/20/16 4:52 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Jinxed P 5/21/16 12:02 PM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Qadis 5/21/16 1:59 PM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Jinxed P 5/21/16 2:32 PM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Qadis 5/21/16 10:41 PM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Noah 5/22/16 12:10 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Qadis 5/22/16 5:06 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Qadis 5/22/16 8:55 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Laurel Carrington 5/22/16 10:20 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles . Jake . 5/22/16 10:40 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Dada Kind 5/24/16 11:14 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Noah 5/24/16 2:32 PM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Jinxed P 5/25/16 9:53 PM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles bernd the broter 3/9/17 7:58 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles CJMacie 5/25/16 6:14 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles streamsurfer 6/1/16 10:51 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Pål 6/2/16 12:17 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles This Good Self 6/3/16 5:22 AM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Qadis 6/5/16 3:31 PM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles Noah 6/5/16 6:04 PM
RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles This Good Self 6/5/16 9:21 PM
Hello, first post here.

Some background: I'm nearly 26 years old and started working fulltime only recently. Not exactly completely happy with what I do, and honestly I'm not even sure what I want to do. As far as meditation goes, I used to do a simple breath meditation consistently for maybe half a year 3 years ago. Since the beginning of this year I started meditating on and off, and only 2 weeks ago I've commited to doing a daily 30 minute mindfulness meditation (noting thoughts but returning attention to the breath). Lately I even extend it to about 40-45 minutes, and I believe I'm starting to achieve soft jhana after the first 20 or 25 minutes (my focus becomes good, I start seeing white lights behind my eyelids, my sensation of the breath 'magnifies', feel generaly calmer etc.)

There's more than one reason for my renewed interest in meditating, but a big one has to be a recent MDMA experience I had. It was actually the first great mdma experience I've had (the first one being a failure due to mixing it with other substances and a bad psychological state). It helped me see some 'big' issues I have in a new light, I'd dare say the proper light - for example, I finally started 'screening' women instead of trying to appeal to them so they would like me. Also, the bliss of simply walking around was something I wanted to experience on a regular basis because it truly gives meaning to life - if life can't be mostly enjoyable like that, what's the point of it anyway?

So yeah, I finally got some clear goals for my meditation - learn to enjoy life fully and learn to accept myself. However, especially the 2nd goal gets muddled in my mind. I've always had an irrational obsession with women in the sense that I wanted to be adored by them, especially by ones I deemed worthwhile for some reason. Yet I remain a virgin, and in fact never had a relationship - the best I got were makeouts with random (usually drunk) girls in clubs.

Luckily just last weekend I've met a rather interesting (and gorgeous) girl, and it only happened because she basically approached me and my friend. I say luckily because she made me realize what I want from a woman. She did a read on both of us and at that point she seemed rather lucid - she correctly identified I'm mostly a closed person (although in hindsight that may not be so hard to see emoticon). We went into some spiritual discussions and I was honestly surprised to the extent of her intelligence. Later on I realized my initial impression was a bit overblown but I still found she was a girl I could be quite open with and have spiritual and even intellectual discussions- something I really appreciated as it's probably my favorite way of socializing. Thing is I didn't ask her number that time, so I'm not sure I'll ever run into her again, and even if I did I'm not sure she would've found my company enjoyable enough for a romantic relationship.

Which brings me to another big goal of mine, which is improving in socializing. I was quite secluded in my high school and even most of my uni years so I'm still lagging behind people in this aspect. My style of socializing might be described as slightly autistic where I tend to communicate in a more direct manner with very little charm or finesse. Btw I'm INTP on the MBTI scale, with a very high score in introvert... Anyway I think my lack of social grace and interest in people is holding me back a bit when it comes to meeting women. I feel like I would have a much higher chance of attracting the aforementioned girl if I was above average in social skill and had more of a genuine interest in people (this would allow me to actually partake in her social circles). The truth is I don't have any status in the social circles she is in, don't really have money (yet) and am not that good looking, so what do I have to work with?

How can meditation help me with this stuff? I am more mindful of what happens in social situations, but I guess I have to keep hanging out with various people  (and not just with a small group of friends like I used to so far) to be able to have more interesting conversations with them (and not just dry exchanges of information, for example) and to actually have things to say - I actually don't speak much at all, even with close friends? What about the lack of interest in socializing that comes with being introverted? I find at work that I'd often rather just focus on the job and not spend too much time talking, and I do get alot of opportunities for socializing with many different people because my workplace is basically a co-working space which might include various digital 'nomads' from all over the world!

What about the desire for a mate? I find that meditation makes me much less obsessive, yet it doesn't completely remove the desire and in fact I might experience heartbreak before I even enter a romantic relationship. This particular girl, while very attractive and intelligent, may not be THAT special after all, my mind is probably just blind to her faults and I haven't even spent that much time with her. Assuming that I am right and she is a quality mate, finding another one like her is indeed a challenge, so it sucks to not even get a shot with her. What do you people suggest regarding the romantic aspect of a person's life?

Sorry for the very long post, I'm trying to cover everything I think is important to get good guidance...
Peace

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/18/16 2:57 AM as a reply to Qadis.
To quote a very wise girl and a collective body of knowledge:
Internet:

Do you even lift?
That said, you're lost in the fascination of the A&P and you have no clue what you are doing.
Your ramblings about relationships and whatnot are mostly beside the point.
What exactly meditation can do for you in this area no one really knows, but possibly not so much.
The bliss will be gone soon enough (days, weeks or months at most).
If you want to have any meaningful discussion on this board, go read MCTB first, where fancy abbreviations such as "A&P" are explained over and over.

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/18/16 4:19 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Hello Romeo, welcome to the form. Bernd's tone is not the kindest :p in this reply but I wholeheartedly agree with his advice. Read MCTB. emoticon

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/18/16 9:43 AM as a reply to Qadis.
Hi Romeo,

I will third the notion that you are coming into the 4th nana.  That being said, I do think the Dharma has other, valid answers to offer you here.  In my opinion, the beauty of meditation is that it allows one to simultaneously practice self-improvemment, and deconstruct the desire for self-improvement. 

For instance, you can build your skills by getting out more often and meeting people.  For those of us in our mid-20's, I would recommend going to clubs & meet-ups that are based around common interest.  At this life stage (as opposed to high school or college) you are less likely to meet people based on personality compatability alone.  From the POV of the pick-up arts (whose terminology I hear you using), you need a solid base in normal, authentic social interaction with a wide range of people.  Getting that established is more important than having robotically-programmed social skills related to flirting (which is possible, btw). 

When you experience social anxiety, obsessing, or agitation at these hang-outs, you can use the breath to curb them.  If you practice with the breath in this way, all the time, even when you are not in hindrancce, eventually the breath can immediately crush any symptoms as they arise.  This is where Buddhist training comes in to building social skills.

It's even more relevant in deconstructing the desire to build these skills.  Your obsession with women is like a river with multiple, contributing streams:
1) human culture, as a whole (masculine - feminine)
2) human biology
3) Your specific culture
4) Your childhood psychodynamics
5) A legitimate intimacy hunger
6) A legitimate energetic dynamic (yin - yang)
7) Etc.

Know that all of these processes are impersonal, ultimately unsatisfying, & made of energy.  The Buddha's advice is to dissociate from these traits while also taking the appropriate, embodied & integrated actions within them.  You can try to cultivate a joyful, zestful attitude towards this issue, and all issues, by taking things one day at a time, one task at a time, seeing how it is all a joke, yet taking it seriously enough to act with wisdom at the same time.

Good luck!

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/19/16 1:53 PM as a reply to Noah.
Noah:
Hi Romeo,

I will third the notion that you are coming into the 4th nana.  That being said, I do think the Dharma has other, valid answers to offer you here.  In my opinion, the beauty of meditation is that it allows one to simultaneously practice self-improvemment, and deconstruct the desire for self-improvement. 

For instance, you can build your skills by getting out more often and meeting people.  For those of us in our mid-20's, I would recommend going to clubs & meet-ups that are based around common interest.  At this life stage (as opposed to high school or college) you are less likely to meet people based on personality compatability alone.  From the POV of the pick-up arts (whose terminology I hear you using), you need a solid base in normal, authentic social interaction with a wide range of people.  Getting that established is more important than having robotically-programmed social skills related to flirting (which is possible, btw). 

When you experience social anxiety, obsessing, or agitation at these hang-outs, you can use the breath to curb them.  If you practice with the breath in this way, all the time, even when you are not in hindrancce, eventually the breath can immediately crush any symptoms as they arise.  This is where Buddhist training comes in to building social skills.

It's even more relevant in deconstructing the desire to build these skills.  Your obsession with women is like a river with multiple, contributing streams:
1) human culture, as a whole (masculine - feminine)
2) human biology
3) Your specific culture
4) Your childhood psychodynamics
5) A legitimate intimacy hunger
6) A legitimate energetic dynamic (yin - yang)
7) Etc.


Thanks to everyone for replying. I don't mind the strict tone if it gets me going on the right track!

I started reading the book from the beginning as per your advice, a few days ago I only read the parts regarding the first four jhanas and the siddhis.
Yes I do meditate, although consistently daily only for like 2 weeks now.

Where did you get the idea I'm in a bliss state? After reading this thread and some experiences I've had today I'm slowly falling into another slightly depressed state :/
Is it wrong to think it's possible to be in a relatively happy state most of your life? It would make sense to me that it is possible and indeed the point of life.

Btw Noah (sorry for the weird post structure, this board software is really weird with the way you can quote and reply), interesting point you make about separating the need for self improvement and doing it (self improving) anyway. This might be the key for me actually - I am struggling with trying to accept myself while also improving some of my downfalls. It's kinda paradoxical isn't it? If you truly accept yourself why would you try to change or improve anything about yourself? You are perfect the way you are...
Noah

Know that all of these processes are impersonal, ultimately unsatisfying, & made of energy.  The Buddha's advice is to dissociate from these traits while also taking the appropriate, embodied & integrated actions within them.  You can try to cultivate a joyful, zestful attitude towards this issue, and all issues, by taking things one day at a time, one task at a time, seeing how it is all a joke, yet taking it seriously enough to act with wisdom at the same time.
Yes I have a hard time with this, it seems to be all or nothing for me in some situations - like the girl I mentioned, although I did handle the situation OK, I was being normal and relaxed during my interactions with her, just couldn't do what I really wished with her emoticon

Btw I'm not that weird socially usually, used to be alot worse a few years back, now I'm OK, just not very talkative or charming. And mingling is really a pain for me

P.S.
Changed my name because I thought the board would use the provided screen name, not the lame name I came up with for my first name / surname

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/20/16 4:52 AM as a reply to Qadis.
Qadis:

This particular girl, while very attractive and intelligent, may not be THAT special after all, my mind is probably just blind to her faults and I haven't even spent that much time with her. Assuming that I am right and she is a quality mate, finding another one like her is indeed a challenge, so it sucks to not even get a shot with her. What do you people suggest regarding the romantic aspect of a person's life?


The Buddha's advice is a suitable partner or associate has four mutually compatible qualities:

(1) the same faith & life aspirations;

(2) the same morals & goodness;

(3) the same generosity & sacrifice; and 

(4) the same intelligence & reasoning. 

You can read about it here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.055.than.html 

And here: http://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/Part2_3.htm#13

emoticonemoticon

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/20/16 2:09 PM as a reply to Qadis.
 I am struggling with trying to accept myself while also improving some of my downfalls. It's kinda paradoxical isn't it? If you truly accept yourself why would you try to change or improve anything about yourself?



Because you as you are, are a self-organizing unfolding process that is continually transforming. In cheesy spiritual language, recognizing the timeless perfection of being-as-such doesn't alter the fact that you are the kind of being that you are: a human being, with a limited perspective, not knowing what you don't know about yourself, the world, everything ;)

Mostly I agree with what other posters have said, including a warm welcome to the forum.

I would suggest this in relation to romantic relationships. It sounds like you are looking for a variety of things all mushed up together which is normal. Authentic love between two autonomous humans requires differentiating some of these different threads though. You want sex- be honest about that. That's normal.

You also seem to be projecting heavy archetypal qualities onto women, based on the polarizations of your responses to this particular girl, and the way you are phrasing some of your 'observations' (such as being surprised by her level of intelligence... why were you surprised? Might be worth reflecting on.)

Projecting these qualities is normal, and it might be worth doing some conscious work with your 'dream girl'-- just imagining exactly what you want in a girl. The perfect woman. Your dream girl. Imagine Her in great detail. Then, accept that what you are picturing is really a bunch of qualities that you can only get inside yourself (since you referenced the myers-briggs typology, I'm hoping you have some awareness of Jungian psychology).

If you are looking for your dream girl "out there" you are just going to be holding actual women to impossible archetypal standards, getting into codependant relationships at best, exploiting others etc without even realizing it- and causing yourself a lot of suffering. If you can learn to differentiate between your dream girl, which is a facet of your own unconscious wholeness, and actual women in the actual world who will have a mix of those qualities and other qualities that are more human and complex and imperfect, then good.

Also look at what your expectations are for yourself in a relationship-- the archetypes you may be assuming girls are projecting onto you (suave, succesful with money to spend, attractive, assertive, whatever). Realize that actual women with some maturity under their belt- honestly, the majority of women your age probably fit into this category whether we recognize it or not-- they aren't looking for some idealized guy. They are looking for someone that they feel chemistry with who is honest, basically trustworthy, and capable of listening and respecting them as autonomous beings with their own integrity.

Might be worth talking to a good therapist if you can find one who can work with you in terms of self actualization/individuation (as I'm not suggesting that you are pathological, just that you may be ready to go through a growth spurt on the maturity front in terms of understanding yourself and your patterns and building healthier relationships, which may be more important at this stage of your life than awakening per se. Growing up and waking up go can go hand in hand, and they can really enhance each other when you are addressing the proper one at the proper time in the proper context).
-Jake

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/21/16 9:59 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
 I am struggling with trying to accept myself while also improving some of my downfalls. It's kinda paradoxical isn't it? If you truly accept yourself why would you try to change or improve anything about yourself?



Because you as you are, are a self-organizing unfolding process that is continually transforming. In cheesy spiritual language, recognizing the timeless perfection of being-as-such doesn't alter the fact that you are the kind of being that you are: a human being, with a limited perspective, not knowing what you don't know about yourself, the world, everything ;)

Mostly I agree with what other posters have said, including a warm welcome to the forum.

I would suggest this in relation to romantic relationships. It sounds like you are looking for a variety of things all mushed up together which is normal. Authentic love between two autonomous humans requires differentiating some of these different threads though. You want sex- be honest about that. That's normal.

You also seem to be projecting heavy archetypal qualities onto women, based on the polarizations of your responses to this particular girl, and the way you are phrasing some of your 'observations' (such as being surprised by her level of intelligence... why were you surprised? Might be worth reflecting on.)

Projecting these qualities is normal, and it might be worth doing some conscious work with your 'dream girl'-- just imagining exactly what you want in a girl. The perfect woman. Your dream girl. Imagine Her in great detail. Then, accept that what you are picturing is really a bunch of qualities that you can only get inside yourself (since you referenced the myers-briggs typology, I'm hoping you have some awareness of Jungian psychology).

If you are looking for your dream girl "out there" you are just going to be holding actual women to impossible archetypal standards, getting into codependant relationships at best, exploiting others etc without even realizing it- and causing yourself a lot of suffering. If you can learn to differentiate between your dream girl, which is a facet of your own unconscious wholeness, and actual women in the actual world who will have a mix of those qualities and other qualities that are more human and complex and imperfect, then good.

Also look at what your expectations are for yourself in a relationship-- the archetypes you may be assuming girls are projecting onto you (suave, succesful with money to spend, attractive, assertive, whatever). Realize that actual women with some maturity under their belt- honestly, the majority of women your age probably fit into this category whether we recognize it or not-- they aren't looking for some idealized guy. They are looking for someone that they feel chemistry with who is honest, basically trustworthy, and capable of listening and respecting them as autonomous beings with their own integrity.

Might be worth talking to a good therapist if you can find one who can work with you in terms of self actualization/individuation (as I'm not suggesting that you are pathological, just that you may be ready to go through a growth spurt on the maturity front in terms of understanding yourself and your patterns and building healthier relationships, which may be more important at this stage of your life than awakening per se. Growing up and waking up go can go hand in hand, and they can really enhance each other when you are addressing the proper one at the proper time in the proper context).
-Jake
I used to go to a few therapists in the past but didn't get that much out of it. Although part of the problem was definitely me...
I think my biggest problem with women per se is I don't meet many available ones, and I don't have my life situation settled completely (still living with my parents, not much money etc.). However tonight I'll go out and try to be more open towards 'randoms' (people outside of my social group), it certainly helps to meet new people. Just that I'm so clumsy at initiating and keepign convos... gotta start somewhere I guess.

Thanks for all the advice, here's hoping I can help myself in the future!

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/21/16 12:02 PM as a reply to Qadis.
Qadis,

1. Meditation will make you calmer, more relaxed and happier. These are traits that are definitely attractive to most women.  Metta meditation will make you more compassionate and empathetic. This is also great, especially for someone with as autistic bent as you. Do tons of metta meditation. It will really help. That said..


Meditation won't be magical potion. You still need to work on all the other common sense things in your life. Get a good job, move out of your parents, have a social circle, get in great shape, do cool shit, have a fun life. Learn how to interact with women.

2. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the book "Mate: Becoming the man women want" by Tucker Max and Geoffrey Miller. It's common sense, no pick up artist bullshit, about how to improve yourself (the only way to really become better with women).  Also, their podcast the mating grounds is very good.

3. Try internet dating. Seriously. Do it now. Tinder, Bumble, plenty of fish, match, ...don't go out there expecting to find Megan Fox with Einstein's brain. Just go out on as many dates as you can. You need the practice, you need to put in the reps. Becoming sociable and charming is really just practice. The more you do it , the better you will be.

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/21/16 1:59 PM as a reply to Jinxed P.
Jinxed P:
Qadis,

1. Meditation will make you calmer, more relaxed and happier. These are traits that are definitely attractive to most women.  Metta meditation will make you more compassionate and empathetic. This is also great, especially for someone with as autistic bent as you. Do tons of metta meditation. It will really help. That said..


Meditation won't be magical potion. You still need to work on all the other common sense things in your life. Get a good job, move out of your parents, have a social circle, get in great shape, do cool shit, have a fun life. Learn how to interact with women.

2. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the book "Mate: Becoming the man women want" by Tucker Max and Geoffrey Miller. It's common sense, no pick up artist bullshit, about how to improve yourself (the only way to really become better with women).  Also, their podcast the mating grounds is very good.

3. Try internet dating. Seriously. Do it now. Tinder, Bumble, plenty of fish, match, ...don't go out there expecting to find Megan Fox with Einstein's brain. Just go out on as many dates as you can. You need the practice, you need to put in the reps. Becoming sociable and charming is really just practice. The more you do it , the better you will be.


Know of any good guides for Metta meditation? This is first off of google dunno if it's any good: http://www.mettainstitute.org/mettameditation.html

What do you consider 'cool shit' to do?
I've noticed I'm more compassionate and empathic just from the concentration meditation btw.

Internet dating might be good for practice... always kinda avoided it though, esp since I don't have my own place and I'm not very good looking (big deal if you wanna score well with a good profile photo).

DAMN I got anxious when I read your post! It's like I'm lacking so many things to attract a quality mate and there's a tough road ahead. And I've been struggling with this shit for a while as well... gah. Need to adopt a more relaxed mindset somehow

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/21/16 2:32 PM as a reply to Qadis.
1. Have you bought Mate yet?

2. That seems like a fine source for metta meditation. I really like Alan Wallace's guided meditations too.

3. As for looks. You are a guy. There's really no excuse for not being at least decent looking.  Are you in shape? No? Get in shape. With a little work and good diet you can easily have a nice, athletic body. Learn some fashion, wear clothes that fit. And bam, you are above 75% of all guys with ease.

4. If you are concerned about looks, try a site like plenty of fish or okcupid. One with a profile, and not just based on looks like Tinder.

5. Cool shit to do ( That women like too): Hiking, camping, Skiing, going to concerts, yoga class, salsa lessons ,Crossfit (great for a positive social experience and getting in shape, if you can afford it), traveling,  mountain biking, rock climbing, winery and brewery tours, Going to the beach, biking, triathlons, tough mudder, etc..

6.Don't think of it as a tough road ahead. Think of it like you are the hero of your own movie, like Rocky training for Apollo Creed.  Get pumped. The Good news is all of this is fixable.

7. Women are attracted to many things. But mostly confidence..which you can't fake.. not for a long time anyway..confidence comes from competence. Competence that you are an effective human being --socially, athletically, mentally, financially.  The more you improve in these areas the more confident you will be, the more attractive you will be, the more women will want you. You don't have to perfect these areas to get a girlfriend. It's not like any girl has her shit completely together either.

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/21/16 10:41 PM as a reply to Jinxed P.
Jinxed P:
1. Have you bought Mate yet?

2. That seems like a fine source for metta meditation. I really like Alan Wallace's guided meditations too.

3. As for looks. You are a guy. There's really no excuse for not being at least decent looking.  Are you in shape? No? Get in shape. With a little work and good diet you can easily have a nice, athletic body. Learn some fashion, wear clothes that fit. And bam, you are above 75% of all guys with ease.

4. If you are concerned about looks, try a site like plenty of fish or okcupid. One with a profile, and not just based on looks like Tinder.

5. Cool shit to do ( That women like too): Hiking, camping, Skiing, going to concerts, yoga class, salsa lessons ,Crossfit (great for a positive social experience and getting in shape, if you can afford it), traveling,  mountain biking, rock climbing, winery and brewery tours, Going to the beach, biking, triathlons, tough mudder, etc..

6.Don't think of it as a tough road ahead. Think of it like you are the hero of your own movie, like Rocky training for Apollo Creed.  Get pumped. The Good news is all of this is fixable.

7. Women are attracted to many things. But mostly confidence..which you can't fake.. not for a long time anyway..confidence comes from competence. Competence that you are an effective human being --socially, athletically, mentally, financially.  The more you improve in these areas the more confident you will be, the more attractive you will be, the more women will want you. You don't have to perfect these areas to get a girlfriend. It's not like any girl has her shit completely together either.

I didn't, can't really afford it atm.
Actually had a really bad night out, with suicidal thoughts. It's like my efforts don't mean jack shit. Felt really anti-social even around my friends, let alone approaching/talking to strangers. Not sure how I'll be able to improve my social skills ever :/

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/22/16 12:10 AM as a reply to Qadis.
Qadis:

Actually had a really bad night out, with suicidal thoughts. It's like my efforts don't mean jack shit. Felt really anti-social even around my friends, let alone approaching/talking to strangers. Not sure how I'll be able to improve my social skills ever :/


Ah, look at how you are torturing yourself!  Best to become free of this: freedom FROM, not freedom TO.  If you can cast out the thoughts & emotions associated with this obsession, and replace them with joy and mindfulness, wouldn't that alone be enough?  

I am sure that you are doing alright.  Up-thread you told me that you're actually pretty good socially.  There are many logistics to "going out," that may not be in an individuals favor.  I would like to tell you that you can shirk this duty forever, no longer feeling responsible for performing correctly.  As my college friend used to say (with a smile) before parties: "I'm not putting the weight of the world on my shoulders."

Set an intention to unbind your heart.  

Btw, I believe this to be the supramundane 8fold path, as it must be applied to the modern mind.  

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
5/22/16 5:06 AM as a reply to Noah.
Il Matto:
Qadis:

Actually had a really bad night out, with suicidal thoughts. It's like my efforts don't mean jack shit. Felt really anti-social even around my friends, let alone approaching/talking to strangers. Not sure how I'll be able to improve my social skills ever :/


Ah, look at how you are torturing yourself!  Best to become free of this: freedom FROM, not freedom TO.  If you can cast out the thoughts & emotions associated with this obsession, and replace them with joy and mindfulness, wouldn't that alone be enough?  

I am sure that you are doing alright.  Up-thread you told me that you're actually pretty good socially.  There are many logistics to "going out," that may not be in an individuals favor.  I would like to tell you that you can shirk this duty forever, no longer feeling responsible for performing correctly.  As my college friend used to say (with a smile) before parties: "I'm not putting the weight of the world on my shoulders."

Set an intention to unbind your heart.  

Btw, I believe this to be the supramundane 8fold path, as it must be applied to the modern mind.  
As to your first paragraph - that's true. But for some reason the depression/negativity rolled over me. I thought the alcohol would loosen me up a bit but I think it made it even worse.

If I mention my social insecurity to people they tell me I'm normal, but I am very clumsy when I have to talk to new people, and often when we get friends of friends (f.e. female friends of my friend's gf) joining us I don't initiate any convos. My friends are similar to me in this way but they are much more stable mentally, I guess they learned to accept themselves as such and aren't as needy.

The other thread that runs behind this depression seems to be the 'dream' girl. In fact the social insecurity stems from the fear that I won't be accepted by girls I might like (or my current girl I'm obsessing over, which I almost always have) because of my insufficiency in this regard...

IDK it's just scary that my state is so shaky. I've been feeling good most of the week, thought I was figuring things out thanks to meditation and you guys, but then I got pulled right back in.

Btw I have to say I'm not sure I completely agree with the 8fold path. For example, I would like to be able to be a bit of a dick to people sometimes and also to not run from conflict with others.

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
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5/22/16 8:55 AM as a reply to Qadis.
Cried intensely all day so far. I'm guessing it's because of the girl ultimately - being disappointed that I didn't run into her again and being so weak socially and emotionally as to crumble like this. I'll never be able to get even close to a relationship with someone like her if I don't mature somehow...

It's not the first time this happens to me. I've had many crushes like this that didn't end up anywhere and ultimately I suffered alot of pain for each one. I can't believe I'm so dumb and even spoiled to care so much about girls I barely know (some of them I only exchanged a few words lol...) but there you go...

It should be possible to be happy on your own, and I tried deluding myself that I am in the past, but ultimately it always ends up like this if I meet someone I like that I think I might have a chance with.

She's been in my head constantly the past week, kept telling myself in a positive tone that I don't need her and I am happy without her etc... plus I meditated daily, even felt good most of the time, but I guess I was too weak in the end.

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
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5/22/16 10:20 AM as a reply to Qadis.
You can't feel better by telling yourself lies (I don't need her, etc.). Something that may be true in some ultimate long run is not what you're confronting right now. 

A lot lot of the trouble comes from the stories you're telling yourself. One story, I'll get myself out there and things will be better, has turned up empty. So you try to find another story, even if it's a sad one (I'll never be able to get a good relationship, I'm a hopeless failure, I don't really need a relationship, I've always been this way, etc.). Notice that these are thoughts. People turn to stories to make sense of experience, but stories or thoughts are just another part of experience. They generate reactions, which circle round to more stories. You get yourself into a negative feedback loop with it, tears to stories to more tears to more stories. 

Just be with it for awhile. Detach from the thoughts, notice they are there, but let them be. Be with the sadness. Stay in the present, rather than projecting an unsatisfying past into an unsatisfying future. 

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
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5/22/16 10:40 AM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
A big +1 to Laurel's post 

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
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5/24/16 11:14 AM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
The Tucker Max guy is a bullshit artist. Research if you'd like. Of all the dating-advice-dudes I know of I've found Mark Manson the least bullshitty. I'm a fellow INTPbro and he appeals to me at least, so far. Ymmv etc.

Laurel, I think your advice might be confusing to some (at least it is to me). I believe it's generally good advice to learn to detach from stories, but it seems we always need a story after all. If you read the advice earlier in the thread, it's a (sophisticated) story. How do we balance telling empowering stories?

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
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5/24/16 2:32 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
Here's more thoughts, not in direct response to Droll, but just generally commenting on thread...


Droll Dedekind:

The Tucker Max guy is a bullshit artist. Research if you'd like. Of all the dating-advice-dudes I know of I've found Mark Manson the least bullshitty. I'm a fellow INTPbro and he appeals to me at least, so far. Ymmv etc.


Agreed that Tucker Max sucks.  Mark Manson is good for building a healthy sense of self.  It is also possible to not do this authentic, psycho-emotional work, and instead become a successful pick-up robot through sheer repetition.  YouTubing 'Squatting Cassanova' might be of interest as an example.  I consider him the 'pragmatic dharma' equivalent of pick-up arts (i.e. making real, hard progress based on the notion of actually following the instruction on the side of the box).  It's obviously best to become a healthy, well-rounded person, but the reality is that a variety of outcomes are possible.  "You get what you optimize for" - Tarin.  

How do we balance telling empowering stories?


When its emotionally/energetically available, I would say that simultaneity is the answer;  Deconstruct/equanimously observe one's stories and entrain new, more effective habits, at the same time.  It can be hard to summon the energy act on cause & effect directly.  The conceptual overlay of stories supplies us with emotional fuel through self-identity, storylines, etc.

In terms of women/dating/game, there are at least two, major factors at play.  One is compatability (two individuals finding joy and connection in each other's presence and becoming monogamous).  The second is game/broadly-attractive-traits (a man or woman possesses or lacks certain features of appearance or personality that a majority of the corresponding sexual attraction want).

Most adults over-focus on compatability and say shit like "just be yourself."  Most teenagers over focus on game and try to develop themselves into some impersonal mould of what they think is most powerful/attractive/etc.  

Forging traits that optimize for both compatability and game, while also dissecting/creating space around one's instincts & storylines, is a tall, but appropriate order!  This would be an example of acting on cause & effect, rather than storylines, which IMO, is the way to "balance story lines."


RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
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3/9/17 7:58 AM as a reply to Qadis.
Qadis:

[...]
for some reason the depression/negativity rolled over me. I thought the alcohol would loosen me up a bit but I think it made it even worse.
[...]

[...]
IDK it's just scary that my state is so shaky. I've been feeling good most of the week, thought I was figuring things out thanks to meditation and you guys, but then I got pulled right back in.

Dude, you need to seriously chill out.
This is likely a multi-year project. It cannot and will not be rushed.
Initially it may seem that meditation can quick-fix stuff.
No, it can't. This is just temporary. You haven't even begun to do the real work.

My advice:
Hard to say, don't know much about your background.
Regarding meditation:
If you read MCTB, you learn something about insight meditation.
There's also Brahmavihara training, which is itself a profound, worthwhile practice. It's also quite different, and possibly more relevant for you right now. Or maybe not.

I think you have to find out for yourself if either of those practices are meaningful for you now.
In my experience, this is very hard to do without retreats.
A few hundred hours of retreat practice (i.e. a few weeks) will probably answer that question much better than some strangers' speculation on some online board.
So I guess my advice is to make time for those retreats.

If you try to do establish everything at once (meditation, dating, fitness), this sounds like just too much for a single human being.

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
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5/25/16 6:14 AM as a reply to Qadis.
Another book to consider: "Embracing the Beloved – Relationship as a Path of Awakening" by Stephen and Ondrea Levine

Perhaps from the mushroomy generation – Stephen Levine, who just passed away, was part of the Spirit Rock crowd, with a solid background in Theravada and other traditions (tending to become more eclectic over time).

The strongest point in his books /teachings is dealing with grief and death (big-time dukkha); best books along these lines "Who Dies?" and "Healing into Life and Death". He and his wife Ondrea developed the secondary theme of "relationship" out of their experience (over a couple of decades) helping people and their relatives/survivors thru the dying process, and out of the experience of their own, rather remarkable relationship.

Tons of practical information (on relationships), if expressed often s/w poetically. (He was also a beatnik poet in his youth, in Santz Cruz and San Francisco).

Levine's books were very popular, many copies out there -- on Amazon available used for $0.01 to a couple of $$ (+ $4 shipping).

btw: also Stephen Levine left a huge legacy of recorded guided meditations, on cassette and CD (I have them all, listened to them again and again, before switching to Than-Geoff) – many of the best of which relate to metta and forgiveness. He was one of the best of his generation at guiding meditations.

btw: Noah Levine, who's currently a popular dharma teacher specializing in addiction issues, is their son. (Stephen also had a history of addiction and juvenile deliquencyin his younger days in New York.)

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
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5/25/16 9:53 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
Droll Dedekind:
The Tucker Max guy is a bullshit artist. Research if you'd like. Of all the dating-advice-dudes I know of I've found Mark Manson the least bullshitty. I'm a fellow INTPbro and he appeals to me at least, so far. Ymmv etc.

Laurel, I think your advice might be confusing to some (at least it is to me). I believe it's generally good advice to learn to detach from stories, but it seems we always need a story after all. If you read the advice earlier in the thread, it's a (sophisticated) story. How do we balance telling empowering stories?

You are  probably referring to Tucker's books on getting drunk and hooking up with chicks. Are those BS? I don't know. But the book Mate was written by him and the evolutionary psychologist Geoffrey Miller.  And it's very good. It even has a chapter on meditating.

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
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6/1/16 10:51 AM as a reply to Qadis.
Hi Romeo,

I had been a bit into the pick up stuff in my teenage years, and one of the reasons to start with meditation practice was the wish for deeper selfrealization.
I can definitely agree to the other answers - developing the lifestyle that makes you authentically happy will approach girls, which are most likely your match.
Regarding interaction and communication:
Mastering insight meditation will let you know the characteristics of the "matrix" - the ground of all (social) conditioning.
I made the experience that working with my fears and my own person in general increased the sensitivity for "limiting beliefs".
Recognizing these weaknesses in allday life sometimes made me feel incredibly worthless, cramped, etc. Sometimes loving acceptance towards myself untightened these uncomfortable energies, sometimes an intensive learning experience absolutely hit it (there's one good side about the pick up strategy to radically break personal habits keeping you down). But strong patterns and wounds will return often, even if they weaken after time.

Anyway, I would not recommend to focus too hard on these flirting mechanics. Moving towards other people, developing a sense of mutual understanding and selflove will hopefully give you the chance to live your social and love life more and more skillfully.
Please don't be too hard on yourself and give the process time and an openness to which direction it will enfold.

I wish you the very best for exploring this hilly ground emoticon

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
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6/2/16 12:17 AM as a reply to Qadis.
Want to use meditation for attracting women? Learn magick I'd say (putting the k there to shpw you I'm serious).

I don't know if OP still reading, but I find meditation makes me attractive to women.  How else do I say that?  Sounds egotistical, but it's true.  I mean meditating whilst I'm doing about my daily life.  It's like a switch - turn on/turn off.  When it's off, there's just normal interaction; when it's on, it's on.  Makes me feel really authentic.  Coincidences and synchonicities also pop up like crazy.

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
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6/5/16 3:31 PM as a reply to This Good Self.
C C C:
I don't know if OP still reading, but I find meditation makes me attractive to women.  How else do I say that?  Sounds egotistical, but it's true.  I mean meditating whilst I'm doing about my daily life.  It's like a switch - turn on/turn off.  When it's off, there's just normal interaction; when it's on, it's on.  Makes me feel really authentic.  Coincidences and synchonicities also pop up like crazy.

But how do you meditate whilst you are bout your day, especially while socializing? Your attention has to be on the interactions.

I've read all of the replies, there's some good advice here... it's up to me to make stuff happen now.
I have a tendency towards more 'brainy' activities, which don't involve many (if any) women.

I've also noticed that, despite my last few years of trying to be more socially active, I'm still somewhat autistic. Maybe I shouldn't use this word as it might turn into a self fulfilling prophecy, but being highly energetic and joyful in social situations seems to be so unnatural for me sometimes. Not sure how to approach that.

And learning to accept myself despite my shortcomings is another challenge in itself. I used to think some of these flaws weren't shortcomings (for example I thought of emotional detachment as a quality to strive for, which it still is in certain pursuits), but I guess when you're hard pressed to find an attractive mate who will feel the same way about the world, you have to adapt... and even fake your personality somewhat.

Right now I try to 'prep' my brain for playfulness and joking around (sometimes I'll tell myself I actually am funny, and adopt such an approach to life in general), but my mind is still returning blanks most of the time. Hope it changes with time.

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
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6/5/16 6:04 PM as a reply to Qadis.
Some thoughts that might be useful:

-In the past, when I have went through periods of time working on social skills & communication, there has been a sense of being locked into the effort, as if I have to get better, or it will be the end of the world.  Realize that you do not have to do anything.  In the sense of willpower and action, you are free.  You have options, including staying the same.

-Accept partial progress.  Sometimes working on socializing can have an all or nothing feel to it.  Even within a given interaction, you do not 'win' or 'lose,' but rather slide between various emotions/energetic states/levels of connection with a person/etc.  There is a lot more dynamism to this process than what first meets the eye.  Think of every time you do something good as one coin in the piggie bank.  

-If you wish, you can attempt to do law-of-attraction by visualizing and imagining the fullest expression of your own communication and ability to relate to other beings.  You can do this once a day, for about two minutes.  After doing it, attempt to completely forget about it.  If you want to do it again the same time, don't.  You can try this once a day for 90 days in a row.  You don't have to be doing any other conscious effort to improve.  Progress will come serendipitously.  I have used this technique for a variety of projects in life and it always, eventually works (one project took 3 years to manifest).

Hope that helps,
Noah

RE: Using meditation to achieve goals with women and social circles
Answer
6/5/16 9:21 PM as a reply to Qadis.
Qadis:
C C C:
I don't know if OP still reading, but I find meditation makes me attractive to women.  How else do I say that?  Sounds egotistical, but it's true.  I mean meditating whilst I'm doing about my daily life.  It's like a switch - turn on/turn off.  When it's off, there's just normal interaction; when it's on, it's on.  Makes me feel really authentic.  Coincidences and synchonicities also pop up like crazy.

But how do you meditate whilst you are bout your day, especially while socializing? Your attention has to be on the interactions.

I've read all of the replies, there's some good advice here... it's up to me to make stuff happen now.
I have a tendency towards more 'brainy' activities, which don't involve many (if any) women.

I've also noticed that, despite my last few years of trying to be more socially active, I'm still somewhat autistic. Maybe I shouldn't use this word as it might turn into a self fulfilling prophecy, but being highly energetic and joyful in social situations seems to be so unnatural for me sometimes. Not sure how to approach that.

And learning to accept myself despite my shortcomings is another challenge in itself. I used to think some of these flaws weren't shortcomings (for example I thought of emotional detachment as a quality to strive for, which it still is in certain pursuits), but I guess when you're hard pressed to find an attractive mate who will feel the same way about the world, you have to adapt... and even fake your personality somewhat.

Right now I try to 'prep' my brain for playfulness and joking around (sometimes I'll tell myself I actually am funny, and adopt such an approach to life in general), but my mind is still returning blanks most of the time. Hope it changes with time.

You can rotate your attention between various things, like your appearance, your lifestyle, your personality - anything which you've judged to be a shortcoming.  And then you let your body/speech/behaviours refelct who you really are, as opposed to forcing yourself to live up to an image of 'cool'.  This is what Carl Rogers called congruence, or authenticity.  The practice of congruence is meditation in action.

Once you get into the swing, you can move your attention outwards more, onto other people.  Maybe that will take a ?5-10 mins.