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4th Path and Freedom from Samsara

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4th Path and Freedom from Samsara
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3/16/17 7:20 PM
We all know that enlightenment was originally sold as what I heard Kenneth Folk refer to as "cosmic suicide", freedom from the cycle of repeated birth and death, but I don't usually hear people in the pragmatic dharma community talking about this aspect of attainments. I want to ask those who have attained 4th path: 1) do you subscribe to the usual Buddhist view of rebirth (if no, please explain your view and how you arrived there), and if yes, 2) do you believe that by attaining 4th path you will now be set free from samsara at death of the physical body

RE: 4th Path and Freedom from Samsara
Answer
3/16/17 8:03 PM as a reply to Yamazaki.
No, I don't believe in rebirth. There's no evidence for it and the idea doesn't even make sense - since there's no self, there's nothing to be reborn.

It became clear after SE and fully realized after 4th path that I'm not my body, not my thoughts, not my history, not anything that can die or be born.

RE: 4th Path and Freedom from Samsara
Answer
3/17/17 1:03 AM as a reply to Yamazaki.
What i think sort of happens is a process in which every properly intended volition holds an imprint or memory of the person having that volition. These volitions will remain as seperate "thought"bubbles waiting for completion. Now if I do not complete them, then someone else will pick them up and complete them. Possibly based on resonant vibrations in someones being?.

So if I die someone will pick up my unfinnished wants and longings (possibly newborns). When they investigate their wants and longings they stumble unto mine and can acces the imprint it took of me on the original idea. Which in turn is interpreted as a previous life.

With that in mind if after 4th path I no longer give rise to volitions. There is nothing left that seeks its own completion. So no volitions left for me to leave unfinished or for someone else to pick up/resonate with

Well that's my theory anyway

RE: 4th Path and Freedom from Samsara
Answer
3/17/17 7:21 AM as a reply to J C.
J C:
No, I don't believe in rebirth. There's no evidence for it and the idea doesn't even make sense - since there's no self, there's nothing to be reborn.

It became clear after SE and fully realized after 4th path that I'm not my body, not my thoughts, not my history, not anything that can die or be born.

Just a thought I've been playing with recently: if you consider minds in a mathematical way - if you imagine having an infinite or at least extremely large multi-dimensional set of mind states (ie full momentary sense experience as the data in this set) through which we traverse moment-by-moment via some kind of linking mechanism based on decision and probability - karma perhaps - that there are mind states within that set that have within them the illusion of being reborn as the state when you were born, due to the mind's grasping at identity at the moment of death? And another mind state in that set had a first arising with the appearance of being linked to the dying mind, through sheer probability under the assumption that the set is extremely large. That would appear experientially to be rebirth, in a selfless environment, would it not? I think it would also explain how completely eradicating the fetters, the grasping, would destroy this illusion of being reborn.

RE: 4th Path and Freedom from Samsara
Answer
3/17/17 7:29 AM as a reply to Yamazaki.
This kind of discussion is interesting to a point but it breaks down if we push it beyond "fun to talk about as a philosophical matter." I say this because it is apparent that what is just IS. There is an an unbelievably beautiful simplicity to our experience that gets lost if we try to analyze, quantify or explain it. That's what the samsaric mind always does. It's getting beyond that mind that reveals the beauty and simplicity.

JMHO, ignore if you wish.

RE: 4th Path and Freedom from Samsara
Answer
3/17/17 11:35 AM as a reply to Lewis James.
Lewis, that kind of reminds me of a Boltzmann brain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain

RE: 4th Path and Freedom from Samsara
Answer
3/18/17 2:46 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
There is an an unbelievably beautiful simplicity to our experience that gets lost if we try to analyze, quantify or explain it. That's what the samsaric mind always does. It's getting beyond that mind that reveals the beauty and simplicity.

JMHO, ignore if you wish.
The beauty and simplicity is there mosly for the enlightened mind.
Most of those lost in samsara seem to believe that answering these questions in some kind of rational matter brings happines. Hence philosophy and the like..

I came up with my analysis of volitional intent bubbles as the source of the reincarnation idea after years of reading, discussions and thought. Till date it is the one that suits me. I know the question is one that the Buddha never answered as being useless or even detrimental to the path.. Still i found it odd because the question is asked so very often. Like many useless questions that seem vitaly important before one has had a taste of Nibanna

RE: 4th Path and Freedom from Samsara
Answer
3/18/17 5:19 PM as a reply to Eelco ten Have.
The beauty and simplicity is there mosly for the enlightened mind.

No, the beauty and simplicity are there all the time and anyone, literally anyone, can experience it. All a person need do is notice.

RE: 4th Path and Freedom from Samsara
Answer
3/18/17 11:05 PM as a reply to Yamazaki.
I don't ascribe to paths (attainments, radical shifts) as absolute, in fact would go as far as to say, if your search leads to 'complete failure'  then, it could be the beginning of something useful. On reincanation there does appear to be a deep psyche ( call it whatever you will) which trancends the death event. I don't think the dissolution of 'self' is enough to stop the cycle of birth and death. A test may be does a 'self' automatically arise in dreaming sleep? If yes, then (fail) if not (truthfully, no semantics or sophistry) then you may be onto something.