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Fullblown Kundalini and insight meditation

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Hey all

Last months my body have worked with kundalini allot. Today it opened up from my spine up to the gland, which should be the last stage before a fullblown kundalini?

I've started to ask myself though if I have worked enough with insight meditation to have a fullblown kundalini, might I have pushed it to fast? I feel quite calm regarding this but at the same time this question won't leave me and it might be the question itself that will hurt the progress. Haven't done any yoga etc, just mostly choiceless awareness, so it have more or less pushed itself up to this stage.

I haven't gotten deep into the dark night, but is it needed to be that way to have a fullblown kundalini or are they different paths? Have read some on it and people tend to have quite different opinions on this.

RE: Fullblown Kundalini and insight meditation
Answer
8/5/17 5:26 PM as a reply to stefan.
Hey stefan, a few questions:

stefan:

I haven't gotten deep into the dark night, but is it needed to be that way to have a fullblown kundalini or are they different paths?

Why would you think the dark night is necessary for a "fullblown kundalini"? What is a "fullblown" kundalini anyway? Why do you want it?

Either way, kundalini = A&P.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+4.+The+Arising+and+Passing+Away/en

RE: Fullblown Kundalini and insight meditation
Answer
8/5/17 11:32 PM as a reply to neko.
[quote=]Either way, kundalini = A&P.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+4.+The+Arising+and+Passing+Away/en

Kundalini like symptoms may be A&P, but a true kundalini experience is something different all together. Although there are various types of risings (see Joan Shivaparti Harrigan's book 'Kundalini Vidya' for a full exposition) one way to tell the difference lies in Daniel's final paragraph in his discussion of stage 4:

Until they complete this progress of insight, they are “on the ride” and may begin to feel that the dharma is now doing them rather than the other way around, as they will progress inevitably and relatively quickly, usually within days, into stages five to ten, which as you will shortly see, are not always pretty. The rapture and all the bells and whistles die down quickly, and the meditator may even be left raw as if hung over after a night of wild partying. The clarity fades somewhat, and the endings of objects becomes predominant as they progress to knowledge of...

Kundalini process lasts a number of years, decades for many, symptoms increase and change and don't die down within days.

As far as Dark Night being necessary, you'll get different answers depending on who you ask, and different definitions of the Dark Night. By Shinzen Young's definition, a true Dark Night is a thankfully very rare occurance. Daniel Ingram may say it's necessary, but some breeze through it, more like a dusky evening.

Go to your experience and don't worry so much about theory and maps. The Theravada tradition (the base of MCTB structure) doesn't really map or acknowledge kundalini per se. Dzogchen and Tibetan Buddhism, on the other hand, know all about it.

RE: Fullblown Kundalini and insight meditation
Answer
8/6/17 4:34 AM as a reply to stefan.
Hi Stefan, please describe a Fullblown Kundalini? Who recommends this, and why? What teachings are you following?

RE: Fullblown Kundalini and insight meditation
Answer
8/6/17 7:14 AM as a reply to Daniel - san.
Daniel - san:

Kundalini like symptoms may be A&P, but a true kundalini experience is something different all together. Although there are various types of risings (see Joan Shivaparti Harrigan's book 'Kundalini Vidya' for a full exposition) one way to tell the difference lies in Daniel's final paragraph in his discussion of stage 4:

Kundalini process lasts a number of years, decades for many, symptoms increase and change and don't die down within days.

What are these symptoms? How are they different from the A&P, apart from duration? Because you could also say that the A&P process lasts a number of years (actually forever) in the Theravada tradition, as it gets rivisited over and over again, in cycles upon cycles of different characteristics, depths, and so on.

RE: Fullblown Kundalini and insight meditation
Answer
8/7/17 1:28 AM as a reply to neko.
Hi neko,
its a big subject, here is a primer:
http://kundalinicare.com/kinds-of-kundalini-risings-2/
In the end these are all just words to describe baskets of experiences and of course the words and maps point to things, but they are not the things. Kundalini, A&P etc. Mind likes things, but it doesn't always wrap up with a bow. But yes, using Daniel's definition of the A&P, kundalini is not that, it's something more specific and much more prolonged.
In my experience kundalini is the release of a large amount of latent energy, with a mind of its own. It is a schizophrenic breakdown of sorts within the context of acutely heightened equanimity, awareness and a cleared energy body. K moves throughout the nervous system clearing pranic blockages without effort required on 'your' part. The force requires utter surrender or its even more difficult.
The fruit to complete sustained surrender has been, for me, fulfillment. For others it is bliss. Ultimately it is a path of karmic purification, if you believe in that sort of thing. More words. It's also a path to realization of the depths of suffering, impermanence and no self, maybe even to a freedom that is free of conditions. I'll have to let you know later how it ends though, I'm still on the ride.

RE: Fullblown Kundalini and insight meditation
Answer
8/7/17 3:08 AM as a reply to Daniel - san.
Hey Daniel, very interesting link, thanks! Comparing this to my own practice, I have the impression that the territory described there can be to a certain extent remapped to traditional Theravadin stuff, with of course all due respect for the different perspectives. I agree that this territory goes well beyond the A&P nana.

What I meant by kundalini = a&p was a shorthand for "the energy phenomena involved in kundalini practice and the piti phenomena involved in a&p are the same stuff". Or perhaps "prana = piti", which is strictly speaking wrong but phenomenologically speaking a good starting point. I guess we agree?

I am curious, what kind of practices are you doing? Pranayama? Visualisations? Mantra?

Also, as a practicioner, what is your take on Yogani's AYP?

Last, but not least: I am experimenting with meditation during yoga flows. Working mainly on very simple vinyasas  (like the ones Gary Weber suggests) and integrating piti, elephant-taming, and the jhanas into the vinyasas. I like Gary's vinyasas but inquiry does not work so well for me. Any specific work you might suggest during asanas and flows.

Apologies to OP for the partial thread hijacking!

RE: Fullblown Kundalini and insight meditation
Answer
8/7/17 11:32 PM as a reply to neko.
neko:
What I meant by kundalini = a&p was a shorthand for "the energy phenomena involved in kundalini practice and the piti phenomena involved in a&p are the same stuff". Or perhaps "prana = piti", which is strictly speaking wrong but phenomenologically speaking a good starting point. I guess we agree?

Hmmm...I'm not sure that prana = piti neko. Prana is basically the life force, i.e. phenomenon, so it is not necessarily blissful or even comfortable as far as I understand. For me in fact, there's lots of pain. Prana can be experienced as either sattvic, rajistic or tamasic. Someone smarter than me would need to answer this question in a more complete way, but I would say that prana is a much bigger word than piti. Piti is something very specific, an experience of a sattvic, maybe even partially rajistic energy, that one experiences in an absorbtion state. I experience prana pretty much constantly, but I am not in a jhanic state all the time by any stretch.
I would go a bit further though. What we call prana, is basically just the experience of sensation when one has attained to a certain degree of inward facing awareness, a threshold or strength of awareness that is turned toward the sensations of the body. It's the same as a muscle ache, but experienced in a more subtle, penetrative way.
So I would say prana = phenomena, and piti = a very particular type of pleasant sensation. Or maybe it is all the same and when it's piti you're just experiencing it with a blissed out mind, no say.

I am curious, what kind of practices are you doing? Pranayama? Visualisations? Mantra?

No, none of those things. I meditate daily, but it is just awareness of sensation. I started practice over ten years ago very intensely, and had a bunch of wild unwanted mystical experiences where meditation started doing me (kundalini awakening). After a year or so of lots of very weird wild stuff, too much to go into, I became aware of the stressful nature of effort, and my practice has since been effortless effort, or just sitting.
More specifically, I am aware of bodily sensation, but not by choice or effort, awareness is just there. Awareness moves throughout the body in an undirected fashion and my practice is to allow efforting to drop away, by becoming aware of it, not by applying effort to be effortless. This is a continual happening in the moment. 
An insight I had some time ago was that the nature of awareness is letting go and detachment, so the teachings of the Natural State of Dzogchen resonate with me very much. Any manipulation in practice, or in life, seems to create uncomfortable sensations, stress relief for me is allowing anything and everything.
I also like to keep the teachings and practice simple, to bring it back to the basics because lots of analysis and study and models can sew doubt and confusion. Buddha taught that attachment is the problem, specifically ignorance (unawareness), desire, and aversion (another word for desire), so like, two things. The two wings of the bird are awareness and equanimity, that is the practice. Awareness is not getting lost in fantasy but sticking with the reality of the moment (the reason why thinking gets a bad rap in spiritual teachings) and equanimity is being thoroughly without preferences, without desire - so it's another way of saying the cause of suffering is igorance (lack of awareness) and desire (lack of equanimity). So fully cultivated, or discovered, awareness and equanimity = freedom. Simple.

Also, as a practicioner, what is your take on Yogani's AYP?

I read a bunch of the AYP stuff and I have to say, to each their own, but for me, any practice that involves effort is not it. There is a subtle aversion in there to reality as it is. This must be dropped. In a kundalini awakening, there is a Higher Self that is activated and connected to, an Inner Guru. If one completely surrenders to this process, mudras, pranayamas and asanas happen spontaneously. So I've done all that stuff, but not by choice. When I tried to do practices like that with effort it wasn't good. Kundalini process can be a unrelenting task master. It's all pretty trippy.

Last, but not least: I am experimenting with meditation during yoga flows. Working mainly on very simple vinyasas  (like the ones Gary Weber suggests) and integrating piti, elephant-taming, and the jhanas into the vinyasas. I like Gary's vinyasas but inquiry does not work so well for me. Any specific work you might suggest during asanas and flows.

I've read so many books but never Gary Weber's. It's hard for me to recommend practices because this is such a personal thing, and I'm not a teacher. But if I had to suggest anything, what has been gold for me, is allowing all effort to subside. This is fearlessness. Completely surrender to the moment, do not manipulate anything, even your own tendency to manipulate. Become gently aware of it, and awareness will do the rest.

Best to you in your practice