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Meditation "destroys sense of individual self"

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RE: Meditation "destroys sense of individual self"
Answer
10/23/17 7:40 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
This quote - is it what you're posting about? If so, it's not a Kabat-Zinn quote:

Wikholm, a clinical psychologist, has that “the fact that meditation was primarily designed not to make us happier, but to destroy our sense of individual self – who we feel and think we are most of the time – is often overlooked in the science and media stories about it”.

That's a dramtic and misleading statement of what meditation is meant to do. But of course, it's a news story, so maybe a little drama is par for the course.

RE: Meditation "destroys sense of individual self"
Answer
10/23/17 7:48 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
JKZ is an old hippy from the sixties - he wants to bring peace and happiness to as many people as possible through a simple dogma-free technique. IMO it's more a political goal than 'spiritual'. Some think that's fabulous, some think it just creates more well-adjusted late-capitalist drones. But yeah, meditation can lead to awakening, and that's destabilising to the individual sense of self. Unfortunately many mindfulness teachers don't recognise this, let alone warn students of the small possibility, and don't have any support in cases where it does happen.

You might enjoy a couple of recent Deconstructing Yourself podcasts with Michael Taft. He interviews Shinzen Young and later on Daniel Ingram OTP, and asks them both about this - their answers are far better than mine.

Rich

RE: Meditation "destroys sense of individual self"
Answer
10/23/17 1:40 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
This quote - is it what you're posting about? If so, it's not a Kabat-Zinn quote:

Wikholm, a clinical psychologist, has that “the fact that meditation was primarily designed not to make us happier, but to destroy our sense of individual self – who we feel and think we are most of the time – is often overlooked in the science and media stories about it”.

That's a dramtic and misleading statement of what meditation is meant to do. But of course, it's a news story, so maybe a little drama is par for the course.

Is it? It's not how I would put it, but it's not far off the mark. It's not an answer designed to make the public feel safe, but it's unlikely your everyday person on the street is going to understand what the effects of "destroying the sense of individual self" might really be.

Meditation without a method is resting in the nature of "mind"... the nondual space between thoughts. Silence is the route to nondual awakening/stream entry. Seeing through separateness and "self" is the byproduct of that seeing. There are, of course, many insights BEFORE that seeing, if it ever happens at all. 

There IS a reason why most Buddhism starts with relative truth.

RE: Meditation "destroys sense of individual self"
Answer
10/23/17 5:50 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
JMHO -- and I agree the statement quoted is not too far off, but far off enough to require clarification.

By meditating are we trying to destroy or eradicate the sense of self? No, we're not. We're learning to recognize the sense of self for what it really is, an impermanent object that we have previously assumed was a permanent entity that defined us as "me." Identity is a fluid state, not a condition of existence. So we're actually destroying the illusion of self, not the sense of self.

RE: Meditation "destroys sense of individual self"
Answer
10/23/17 4:24 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I think the issue at hand is whether meditation of some kinds or all kinds frequently leads to a state of depersonalization or existential angst because it either lets a person see through their old identity while hanging onto identification with consciousness (depersonalization) or lets a person see through all the triggers that make them happy before they see that they dont need triggers to be happy ( Dark Nightish stuff). 

I know I have gone through lots of states like these - though I was able to stick it out - but I imagine people get lost in these states alot.  Is that true?  Are some methods safer than others? 

RE: Meditation "destroys sense of individual self"
Answer
10/23/17 7:07 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
I have a more expansive view on it. I think meditation does attentuate the self, but you can include intuitive meditations that connect to the sense of self (chakras for example) and actually use the self (feeling tones in the body) and use intuition to guide you. Using both in my opinion is better. 

Rob Burbea does talk about practices of just letting go and having students feel the enjoyable part of themselves die off slowly, this then was his bridge to the imaginal and accepting that there will always be some dukkha and that's okay.

I personally think this is a choice people gradually come to and people may jump to one stream or another based on how ready they are for it. I'm still benefiting from meditation and letting go at deeper levels but I also include Sonia Choquette's meditations that bring one to the self again, because if intuition is used properly then there is less need to just staying with sensations and letting go. Healthy passion for hobbies and interests really were never the problem, but papanca based on unnecessary thought forms is worth eradicating.

Use intuition when it's appropriate, and use sensing when it's appropriate. Both help each other.

RE: Meditation "destroys sense of individual self"
Answer
10/24/17 12:41 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yilun Ong:


One thing i want to ask to community in general for this kind of articles and general feel good feeling about meditation. Public seems to be blissfully unaware of what happens when A&P starts and you start to feel sensations and that is just begining . With MSBR and mindfulness wave what if person at minmum ends up in A&P and i am not even talking about pit of void or high energentic phenomenon , Who is going to help the person who is clueless about what is going on. These states looks more like mental problem and as there is stigma asscoiated with this kind of stuff in society people are in general reluctant to talk about it also. I am questing ethics of teaching mindfullness/MSBR/drived stuff or similar stuff to unsuspecting public whatever form or name it could be. I am totally fine when there is disclosure and people know what they getting into but i doubt most of them know that ( this is just my guess ) .

RE: Meditation "destroys sense of individual self"
Answer
10/26/17 7:36 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
JMHO -- and I agree the statement quoted is not too far off, but far off enough to require clarification.

By meditating are we trying to destroy or eradicate the sense of self? No, we're not. We're learning to recognize the sense of self for what it really is, an impermanent object that we have previously assumed was a permanent entity that defined us as "me." Identity is a fluid state, not a condition of existence. So we're actually destroying the illusion of self, not the sense of self.


Nicely put!  emoticon