kriyas and the works. These are as common as the housefly and is NOT KA. I do not know if such experiences are even related to KA but they are NOT KA. If you need to think after reading the checklist if you have KA, overwhelming chances are that you did not and which means you really should not try insisting whatever view you have is right.

Firstly, let me say that whatever image there is that I/you have of me, especially from this forum IS NOT REAL. I do not know why I need to say this, but I am not writing this to feel better about an illusion of me. So flame me if you wish to but really, do save your bullets.

Checklist: Read this, she isn’t 100% correct but pretty much there. She cannot be 100% correct because everyone has a different experience. If anyone tells you X will happen after Y, Freeze or Flight are good responses. Anyone who presumes they know and pre-emptively instructs you is likely unenlightened by the experience (or didn’t have it) and cannot help you. Let go of fear (KA will not kill you) and resistance; explore with all the clarity and open-mindedness you can summon with equanimity.

Certainty if you have all: Full-time Off-cushion bliss+pain+ Initial BIG FEAR (unlike post SE, KA is a messy mixed bag of pain/pleasure with greater intensity and permanence); Positive physical changes; EMF incidences (interference with electronics, noticing that raptures or symptoms go towards the ground, whether you are /standing/sitting/lying on your back or belly - they all go South - an insight to what you really are?); KA is going not just at your head but all your organs too

Religion & Dogma: I a monk and am/am not a Buddhist depending on your definition of it. It is detrimental to my 'career' to associate myself with it, but denial is denial - so I hope you can gain some insight from this lowly monk. If you are Christian or Hindu or decide to be a snake-worshipper, that is really your choice and have nothing to do with how to deal with KA. I consulted a senior monk and he said that what I am going through is facing my karma. If this Thai Forest Tradition’s explanation works for you, to release the fear, accept whatever is happening every moment, investigating mindfully; there is nothing wrong with whatever you believe in as long as you follow the idiot-proof instructions. The difficulties are only 2, but they are in BOLD: FEAR + RESISTANCE 

FEAR
The fear goes away when surrendered to; mine is gone within 2/3 sits of resolving to face it. Resistance is to be consciously dropped, resulting in a rapid-growth equanimity and bliss from love/acceptance of the uncertainty that Life is.
RESISTANCE
"The natural reaction to such a foreign internal take-over is resistance. Trying to fight an invisible, unknown power for never-before-contested rights of sovereignty over our own anatomy can become a terrifying battle. What changes our predicament, from one of being locked into combat with alien forces, to one of a peaceful witnessing of wonders is our surrender to the apparent whims of this newly assigned central-control operator. "If you have sky-high equanimity, you may follow the advice to treat it all as nonsense but you may lose the guidance/highly-attuned perceptive capabilities that when allowed to sensitize, can yield. Also when continuous treating it as nonsense or just another sensation, results in increasing intensity, resulting in breaches of your upper limits - It will be wise to step on the brakes and turn around to surrendering with trust – there may be truth in the Goddess/Evolutionary Force beliefs or you can expect highly-tuned perceptive capabilities but only you can find out for yourself.

Explanation of KA: Yes it is a concept just like Nibbana is one. We use the name so that we can refer to it without using 1000 syllables or substituting it with an important-sounding English string and feign divorce. If you have it, after a likely futile search, you will give up and look inwards to what is fondly called the Inner Guru. It may be beneficial to prematurely terminate your thirst for cognition. All the insights are in your own experience. To date, I have not found nor claim to understand it all - so use your time for other pursuits. The key here is to shake yourself loose of the notion that you can control and know what's up or what's coming up next.

What's Happening? <-Read: Kundalini cannot be charted... Investigate and Be your own guru! "I believe it is extremely important to honor our own development and not allow others who claim authority to tyrannize us."Making sense of the suffering: Our understanding of the process can help us to better cope with the chaos. Chakras - maybe useful, maybe not.

So why is knowing the difference important? If you have a Fever from a common flu, you deal with it using method X. Chicken Pox – Method Y ; Malaria – Method Z They are all fevers - same same but different!

So why is it that we accept treatment for Chicken Pox but deny the existence of a Snake thingamabob named in India? Check to see if that has to do with your Western illusion of an identity of your Self. One can stay forever in his illusion that he does not have KA, and ‘medicate’ it with whatever resonates with his Self-Image – consider the detrimental effects and how you may be denying THE spiritual experience that others will die for (BUT you are in no way superior - I like my theory: these people do not need it ha). I have seen a handful of guys in the past months that are likely to be going through KA, one left without answers and the other went the Western route of tranquilizing it. I really hope that they are fine now (And I am regurgitating here because it's such a pity to see it happen again).

Ideal Progress: Clarity – Wisdom (to be open and equanimous) – Self-worthiness - Release of Fear – Acceptance – Trust – Joy - Faith – Happiness – Higher Perception/Receptivity - Reverence/Exploration (Not sure where enlightenment fits in, if at all - I cannot smell it)

A possible Kundalini path towards Full-Awakening: YMMV

I don’t know what is the deal with “But it is not Science!”, when the methods of deriving the information is the same. Do yourself and others a favor, there are rainbows after the storm, do not rain on your own or another’s parade by dismissing a wondrous experience OR try to reduce KA to X or Y – yes you can call a Tiger a cat, but there is no benefit of treating a Tiger as a domestic cat, is there?

Meditation Practice for awakening to Self: here Basically it says to merge with Shakti when it is full of bliss. No harm trying.

Exercises that work: Biology of Kundalini Read Inner Arts Page 410 onwards: NER & PSR works for me - really powers up the KA works, especially the Bliss.

I am trying to be concise, feel free to ask or hiss at me. 

Metta + Karuna + Mudita to All & One!

howdy YO,
so is the point you are making that there is a difference between KE and KA and thus they are different "things" or "stages"?

thanks

tom

IME, they are different things altogether e.g. the exact spot of tension in the 3rd eye feels the same in both, but for KA, you are off-cushion and focused on something important like reporting to your boss and you weren't mindful, this same tension can be there, along with nice raptures going on your face, teeth rattling, gut making embarrassing sounds coinciding with a painful laser-like beam at the same spot, your vision is overlayed with holographics synchronized with raptures on your head (if you pay attention), and head to toe - random vibrations, etc.

So same as in similar sensations are felt, but for where I am now, there is a whole lot of +/- stuff going on with no insights to what is going on: for someone familiar with the DN and passed EQ, this rocks their view of their level of equanimity. It is like passing the level 1 monster to facing a level 3 boss that morphs a level higher whenever you summon more EQ and it will NOT stop till you drop fear, trust and surrender.

I am not even sure if they should be linked but over here and in other sites like Mary's - they do. If we continue to use the common word K as we have been, I am meaning to say that they should be clearly distinguished from one another. Kriyas, the goodies experienced in A&P, some of the nasty stuff experienced in the DN Stages as KE. They really aren't the same thing!

The 1st indicator for me that things smell funny is when this stuff intrudes bigly into off-cushion living, contrasted with the background running or couple of seconds mindfulness post-SE cycling thing that slowly boots up to speed with increased mindfulness. Then the FEAR lesson starts to show itself - it is fear of plain death/complete disability or insanity itself, not of scenarios/objects. It sounds bloody mystical but it feels to me that it wants my unconditional surrender, come what may.

I wouldn't care about expounding their difference if it does not create havoc when mistaking KE for KA. I burned many sleepless nights searching, trying to understand, fearing and resisting - I would have been saved a lot of suffering if this info has been available so I wish others will not have to go through the same...

Kindly do let me know if my explanation is holey.

Yilun, how did you activate your KA? I guess standard Mahasi noting can be insufficient for triggering KA?

I feel like my big question with Kundalini phenomena is whether it's really a different process than regular vipassanna, or if it's that same type of investigative process being run by a subconscious part of our minds.  And I think it's helpful at times to try to see if you can put together a naturalistic/scientific explanation to figure out what might be going on rather than just going with the spiritual explanation, even though the spiritual explanation is likely to be better at explanining your subjective experience of it and for giving suggestions for how to work with it.

When we look closely enough at our experience to perceive the 3 Characteristics in real-time, it's very surprising since it turns out that our original model of reality was incredibly wrong.  The brain has an elaborate neurochemical mechanism which responds to novelty by emitting various pleasure/reward neurotransmitters like dopamine, and by stimulating the growth of brain areas that consistently point out novelty.  I think there are pretty obvious parallels between the Progress of Insight stages and how neurotransmitters mediate depression/mania. Since the novelty level in "my implicit model of the world is almost entirely wrong" is high, meditation can induce levels of neurotransmitter release that you'd think you'd need pharmaceuticals for.  And it's not surprising that extra-high levels of dopamine or whatever could cause your muscles to spasm or whatnot. So by doing vipassanna, we gradually grow a coalition of parts of our mind that tune in when we do insight practices.

Under the normal development of the process, this coalition includes and is built around our sense of the doer/thinker/controller. "We" decide that we want to meditate, and which process we'll follow.  But what if a very different part of our mind picks up on the vipasanna method for looking at reality and starts applying it? This article has a really good discussion for how to think about independent agent-like coalitions in the mind:

To me, it seems pretty plausible that kundalini phenomena could stem from such a sub-personal process somehow getting clued in to the 3Cs and the ultimate nature of reality.  Once it is, it could just go ahead with investigating whenever it wanted to, which would trigger the release of reward neurotransmitters, physical symptoms of such, and promote the further growth of its coalition of parts of your brain.  And it won't be wired into the parts of your brain that recognize certain times as more or less appropriate for bliss/kriya-producing meditation.

Hi Paul, I did not do Mahasi noting, I was practising a Thai Forest Tradition's method of reinforcing the knowing of the 3Cs when necessary, which is not often at all e.g. not when pain is clearly suffering. I am silent and note only when something new happens or something unclear needs to be reiterated. (Which is often 0-x times per sit) I should not hazard a guess of how KA happens.

Hi JP, your suggestions are very interesting and likely a possibility. I am keeping up the investigations but I am only a few months into this - I will report my findings when they are clear. However, from where I am the past months, investigating the 3Cs has been ridiculous. 

Impermanence is clear as sky in the hundreds of sensations that hit the whole body and yet some of the more troubling ones aren't as they either repeatedly pound on the same spot or tension stays for days; Suffering is similar in that individual sensations shout it out but each moment is usually peppered with both pleasure/pain; Anatta: I was watching sensations that make up a sense of self before KA - now it becomes an activity too hard to perfom and leads to great confusion amongst the mess.

I have basically shelved the 3C practice for awhile now. Equanimity/trust in the process is much higher although I am pretty much unsure about everything! All I can say is that it seems to be shifting my attention towards other things. I felt it shifting me towards investigating and moving towards a more complete: acceptance of self, full honesty to self first then outwardly, uninhibited expression/sharing of feelings/happiness, gratitude, compassion/love; and rewarding it with a lot of rapture/bliss.

Something you might be able to make sense of: I can see holographic hands and multiple fans/wheels/petals of varying 'blades' (chakra means wheel, I have witnessed these stuff daily, way before reading about them (turning in similar/opposing directions that occur in tandem with stuff I feel on my head and torso, watching very carefully more often than I care to. You can for e.g. see that a finger cocks back for as long as a second or more and watch the whole movement before I feel the physical feeling. The images never makes a mistake as you can see them dissapearing, shifting or obscuring your entire vision when applying full force/contact. I can see them in broad daylight although the dance is much clearer in low light. I may sound insane but I have investigated many times with an empty mind - know how the mind tries to form recognizable stuff from clouds or patterns on the wall? This does not seem to come from that at all. Mental images yes but I cannot find a link to anywhere...

I have been testing how this thing work with a fellow meditator with physical contact: when I am having a good time, he gets positive effects; similar when I am getting the bad stuff. He needs to be in Access Concentration to perceive it and the similarities can be stuff like both feeling stuff going on in the stomach and him feeling breathless (Although he does not get the same effects as I do). He is convinced it works as he said that the effects are much stronger than him on his own and hasn't seemed to have KA yet and if he does, I will report.

Maybe others can chime in with their experience. The other recent thread has a wealth of information from dearest Daniel-san

I used to see similar things with open eye meditation, and a fixed grid pattern overlayed onto the surface of everything in my vision. It might be a long shot, but Allan Snyder's research using Transcranial Direct Current Stimulation (tDCS) discovered when certain areas of the brain are inhibited, it automatically disinhibits other areas that provide more direct access to unfiltered details; this short video provides a brief overview if need be. I might have some useful perspectives to share based on personal experiences (acceptance, exposure flooding, iron pills to treat anemia and ground experience), but I'll need to do more research on kundalini to fill in the gaps.

Thanks Francis, please do not make me feel guilty in troubling you to research! I assume it is a walk in the park for this brilliant mind of yours to do so yeah?

I am having severe difficulties in tracking/fathom what this extremely fast/fluid hallucinating thing really is. The latest trouble is it now seems that it is not simply a mental image. 

1. I stare at a wall and pinpoint the locations of the spinning wheels/vortices but when I move my head and/or peek - they seem to be in the same place!
2. I hear/feel them outside of my body. The stuff hits the pillow/blanket/clothing ~ 1 inch away from body boundaries.

I would hate to claim seeing other dimensions but this formation-like stuff is spooky and is tricking me to feel this way. Shikes...

Thanks Francis, please do not make me feel guilty in troubling you to research! I assume it is a walk in the park for this brilliant mind of yours to do so yeah?

I am having severe difficulties in tracking/fathom what this extremely fast/fluid hallucinating thing really is. The latest trouble is it now seems that it is not simply a mental image. 

1. I stare at a wall and pinpoint the locations of the spinning wheels/vortices but when I move my head and/or peek - they seem to be in the same place!
2. I hear/feel them outside of my body. The stuff hits the pillow/blanket/clothing ~ 1 inch away from body boundaries.

I would hate to claim seeing other dimensions but this formation-like stuff is spooky and is tricking me to feel this way. Shikes...

Daniel mentioned something like this in his fire kasina notes. (Or maybe it was a video interview about that practice.)

Labor of love for happiness without suffering; appreciated. I'll refrain from research unless something intuitively connects without anxious effort. In some ways that's what sparked me to respond, and was using it as training to learn how to respect and value people's lived experiences and see beyond the baggage of years of research I've already done, as well as shared goals and (to an extent) experiences.


That's been my experience as well, but for the past few years it's mostly been a grid pattern that stays fixed to the walls/surfaces even when I move my head/eyes. I first started experiencing similar things (floating shapes/objects an inch out from the center of my vision) when I was in my mid teens during a bike trip that lasted a few months, but for me they've been fleeting occasional experiences that would pop up every now and then and then fade quicker than I can test how fixed they were. I didn't know what it was and puzzled at the mysteries without fear; the experience would come and go every now and then, and I'd feel curious.

Before all of that started, once a year I used to experience a sort of synaesthetic impression of what felt (at the time) like a rapidly mumbling voice not understood or heard in my mind but felt and semi-overlayed on my body/skin. I suspect that may be manifestations relating to how/why I grew up with some language/speech difficulties, but there are many overlaps and ways to look at experiences and things and so far on my journey it seems to be pointing towards more thorough levels of love, self-acceptance and intuition (non-attached information processing), but in my experience the conscious self doesn't dissappear, it can either collapse to conscious emptyness or get nourished by learning to tune into what it means in experience which can help relieve any fear.

Meditation references to self, no-self, impermanence, emptyness, letting go, seem to be sloppy misleading words that are prone to unnecessary fear and suffering of the unknowns embedded in the language and references, but they are layers to our experience and in some of those layers there are new and unique ways to look at the world and experience ourselves, some of which include connecting with ourselves and others, and some of which help process and overcome obsessions/attachment. There may be deeper mysteries beyond the surface experience (in part why I'm considering researching kundalini), but I mentioned iron pills because when I was anemic there were frequently reoccuring body tingling, vibrations and numbness sensations, it would temporarily spark a bit of a manic state, fueling a fire and ability to speak really fast which was a bit strange because I'm normally very calm, quiet, contemplative, perceptive, rarely speaking.

Thanks Francis. I am not sure what to do with this stuff though - any recommendations? Watching it doesn't seem to yield any use at all at the moment. It is happening 24/7 and during hypnagogia/sleep as well. It changes throughout the day and from day to day. I do not have your other sound/synaesthetic experiences though. I'll try to find iron pills - if you think it is worth trying?

The reference to sound/synaesthetic experience was in case it was relevant to your experience when you hear/feel them outside your body, and might be aspects of yourself; if it has yet to be tried, I'm curious what happens if you find a way to love/accept/forgive/hug them as part of your self/experience and notice if anything changes in the experience or intuitive understanding of them over time.

If there's no or less than ideal change, patiently let it be, and maybe try iron pills for a few weeks/months and/or if possible pair foods with vitamin c and non-hemme iron (spinach, black strap molasses, etc) as they help each other increase absorption (avoid other food and dairy for about an hour before and after since that can reduce non-hemme iron absorption).

Anemia is relatively common especially for vegetarians/vegans, and the body and mind seem to have ways to relatively cope under it's effects over time; for me there are enough overlaps in general that it might be worth trying and then see if loving them is any different or if they naturally mellow out and become part of your experience.

Since meditation often focuses on the breath, and the breath feeds blood, and iron is an essential element for blood production, it's natural for there to be at least some associations in that complex process whether it makes a noticeable difference over time or not. I was extremely deficient in iron a little over a year ago, and when I first started taking an iron prescription my body was like yes this is what I needed, I could feel/taste it working and the sappy/zappy/tingling sensations subsided over a few days and I felt more energy/stability build up over weeks/months.

I suspect there's a large overlap between different systems like meditation maps, chakras, hierarchy of needs, stages of development, etc, and may be different models to understand and work with the same experience(s) from slightly different accuracy of perspectives and with slightly different objects/tools. I'm not sure how this relates to monk life, but if need be I could try to send money for iron foods/supplements/blood-panel-test.

Hahaha many thanks for such a generous offer Francis but I do not accept money. Outside of buying/taking supplements, I do not have much choice over my diet.

I think I have been loving-kind to them but I'll take your advice in mind and keep watching them. Strange stuff really...

Much Love! 

Hey Bigbird! Good to hear from you...

There's no problem and I shouldn't joke about other dimensions.

But maybe you can enlighten us with what your experiences and insights with external phenomenon?

I've been there as well; no choice over diet. I was considering gifting them by mail, but only if it fit into the process from your perspective; that's never for me to decide. In some ways that's the only real value of money; frees up some of the limitations of our interaction with each other and our roles within a larger context. Backstory: I was only able to continue living because other people helped me acquire social security income and a food card; perhaps I'm in a sort of monk lifestyle without knowing it, but I try to use it for good where possible.

I considered my perspective but I discarded it. In the perspective that your actions will inspire confidence in the beautiful world they live in, that beautiful people like you exist, that online interaction isn't all scam, bad-blood and no connection, this should be done, we pay it forward as one united people... 

The address is:

Phra (means monk in Thai) Yilun 
Wat Doi In Cee
Doi Hang
Chiang Rai 57000
Thailand

Please just send a bottle and not a whole box! Read this yesterday and this guy makes some good points which made me think of you:
Hmmm bad excerpts, best to read it all haha. Much thanks in advance, the warmth and love you exude is worth tonnes of iron IMO.

I searched amazon for iron supplements that support international shipping and found this one, tried to checkout but it said it can't be shipped to that address. I was considering trying other options, but this post claims some packages can come with tax and wouldn't want to create any debts especially larger than the item itself; curious if that happens in your experience.

Alternatively, food cooked in cast iron pans (especially with acids) can provide some amount of additional daily iron intake; curious if that's used in some stages of food preperation there. I'm not a doctor, and so by default always recommend seeing one to get a blood panel test to know the contents including iron levels; it's entirely possible you're perfectly fine as you are. Exuding more love and warmth; hope is worth tonnes of iron.


After solving the meaning of life, all that's left is to meditate with unique perspective and create meaning with everyone else who has a unique perspective. In some ways we're already there, but occasionally this happens and everyone's confused for the time being.

Related to iron supplementation, I watched a program discussing this a while back.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_iron_fish

Thanks Francis & CPM! I take it the world has determined that I do not need iron supplements (I dislike doing so anyhow!). We can let others experiment whether iron works for people with these symptoms. We received the warmth & love from your offer and it is way more important. Also to let you know that I was chain-watching the youtube stuff (Kurzgesagt especially) you linked - what a pleasant way to learn but addictive!

I am no where near done but I have had some insights.

1. The kundalini layer/s is on top of POI or pleasure/kasina jhana layers.
2. It can be manipulated in many ways. I have succeeded in direction, intensity, add/subtract, feel (unpleasant to neutral to pleasant - play with aversion/perception), etc.
3. Looking back into past experiences and using curent practice, intensifying concentration fires them up. Dealing with the fear/aversion to warning pressures/pain changes their behavior in a very positive manner.
4. It appears to be something problematic that one must overcome before crossing the current path as one can still cycle up to fruition yet not attain the next path. More cycles do nothing to it. Finding the problem is the key - I am still stuck wherever I am but I can feel them being kinder to me as more parameters are available for 'control': a dangerous area. I will resolve for the next path after completing mastery of the current situation.
5. It seems to be a clinging layer related to fear/aversion, cannot find any desires linked to it - this is an educated guess. Take it with a pinch of salt.
6. They are reducible to basic dharma and should be treated as such. This means that seeing/feeling vibrations e.g. firing off individually, no matter how quickly or how convincingly, they are to be seen for what they are. vibrations starting from the knee to ankles to feet are NOT energy leaving the body. SEE that they are merely individual sensations doing their thing in a manner that implies a concept that is NOT true. Buying into purification theories are to be questioned with dharma.
7. It is not going to harm you. I have pushed them to the very limits of death/insanity and am still around. If I disappear for some reason, perhaps that data point could be useful for the benefit of other beings...