Fear of the White Open Space

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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 9:49 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 9:49 AM

Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 0 Join Date: 7/26/09 Recent Posts
Forum: Practical Dharma

hi everyone,

i was working from home last week. during break time i decided to meditate lying down in bed. i did the usual breathing meditation, noting the relaxation and vibrations, etc. i reached a point wherein i was very relaxed and in-between waking in sleeping. i could hear myself snoring but still fully aware that i was meditating.

suddenly i lost awareness of the body and become aware of a white open space. at first i was relaxed but then i felt a sudden deep-seated fear. very terrifying. not sure why. just a sudden fear of being annihilated, of not existing, of ceasing to be.

soon as i felt that fear i become aware of my body again, meditating in bed. this time i can feel heat around my body. it felt like i had a high fever. like i was in the oven. my awareness shuttle back and forth to waking and lucid dreaming. a part of me was walking out the door, a part of me was lying down in bed.
but in reality i'm still in bed still conscious that i'm meditating. i was very disoriented. eventually i came out of meditation and realized how chicken i was.

looking back i think i experienced a formless state. conceptually, i understand what to do when i get to formless states (e.g. continue with vipassana noticing the three characterists), but when i'm there i forget to be aware. the bigger challenge is to remember what to do once i'm there.

would love to hear advice from the more experienced practitioners. what can i do to overcome the fear? is it just a matter of plunging into this state over and over to get familiar with this state and overcome the fear?

any helpful tips are appreciated. thanks!

~C
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Kenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 10:17 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 10:17 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
The problem with "plunging" is that is an inherently frightening prospect. A less intimidating, and possibly more viable approach would be to tiptoe around the edges of the experience until you see that it isn't dangerous. Your overall hypothesis, that the key to overcoming the fear is getting used to the territory, is exactly right. But plunging isn't always the answer. If you were very depressed and at wit's end, I might recommend that you plunge. "What do you have to lose?" I might ask. "It can only get better." But depression it not the issue, as I understand it.

The genius of the vipassana technique is that it is gradual. You can always ease up to your edge and gently explore it. I recommend vipassana. It seems that you are abruptly accessing states that you aren't ready to deal with. It's like the old joke on the Hee-Haw television show. "Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this."

"Well, don't do that!" says the doctor.

If you can be patient, you can overcome this. Instead of accessing random altered states from sleep, concentrate on your sitting practice. Build a base of experience and investigation that is so broad and flexible that it cannot be overturned. Eventually, you'll be able to do vipassana even in your sleep. In any event, by systematically adding to your repertoire of altered states, you may soon find that the erstwhile demons have become your best friends.
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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 10:40 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 10:40 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 0 Join Date: 7/26/09 Recent Posts
Kenneth,

as always, thanks for your guidance. i am consistent with my morning and evening sitting practice but i also do meditation as i fall asleep. in fact, most of my "mind-blowing" experiences happen when i do lying down meditation. i think it's because i'm able to relax more and i'm more used to the transition from waking to dreaming (e.g. due to my lucid dreaming practices).

however, now that you mentioned it, i think you're right that i'm "plunging" into states rather than tiptoeing around them during sitting practice. in any case, i'm more motivated than ever to see this through and make vipassana sitting as part of my daily routine.

and yes, the reason i continue to meditate as i fall asleep is to eventually get skilled enough to do vipassana in my sleep emoticon

thanks!

~C
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 10:41 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 10:41 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 443 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
I'd be curious to know what else was observed during this intense feeling of fear. Was there a vibratory element to the thing?

Also, were you continually fearful during the experience of intense heat? What was the feeling tone of the heat?

Some of this sounds familiar, but for me it was always related to the progress of insight. My first A&P crossing concluded in an intense brightness, followed by fearful feelings. And my first Fruition was via the suffering door, which entailed an entrance and exit that felt creepy and wrong - sort of like dying.

The experiences you've posted here at the DhO have always been pretty highly stylized and visionary, so that could just be how things tend to unfold for you. Or, you really could be travelling in some formless territory that I am unfamiliar with, which is just as likely. You'll have to let us know if this sort of thing can be accessed at will, or they are landmarks to signifcant, somewhat lasting changes in your practice.
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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 12:27 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 12:27 PM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

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Jackson,

i usually feel the vibrations prior to any "mind-blowing" experience. that's my go signal to ride it out and see what's behind the "door".

thinking back. i can remember feeling all kinds of fear: like fear of death, fear of my loved ones losing me if i get annihilated, but in essence it's more than fear of bodily death. i think it's fear of the ego dissolving into a formless awareness. i also think that this is a deep-seated fear ingrained at a cellular/sensory level (e.g. the reptilian brain acting up its fight/flight response), at least that's my conjecture.

however, during the experience of heat, i wasn't fearful. just curious why it was so hot in herre emoticon the tone was like a high fever. the heat was all over my body but more pronounced on the back of my neck.

i noticed that my experiences got stronger soon as i picked up on my daily sitting practice. however, during sitting practice, there seems to be a "wall" that prevents me from experiencing the same experiences i have during lying down meditation. i think this is due to the more pronounced relaxation of the lying down position, and also, my lack of concentration during sitting practice.

in any case, practice continues...

~C
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 5:13 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 5:13 PM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 443 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
Hey C,

In that case, I don't have a whole lot to add. You're playing around in some territory that doesn't come naturally to me (or at least I haven't really tried). I think Kenneth's advice is great. Be sure to update us if you learn how to navigate this experience with greater ease. When you do, I'd love to hear some of the specifics :-D
Frater Geur, modified 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 8:35 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 8:35 PM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 24 Join Date: 9/9/09 Recent Posts
Hi C4 -

Just a couple of comments arising from my own experience in this area. What you're describing sounds to me like an out of body experience rather than a lucid dream. It has the classic signs of the vibratory prelude, and also the dual awareness of being in two places at once - i.e. the physical body, and the impression of an 'astral body' at the same time. To get back there, you might find it helpful to use techniques specifically for OOBEs rather than lucid dreams - e.g. as you are falling asleep visualise yourself falling backwards into infinite space, concentrating especially on the tingling feeling that falling causes in your stomach. In my opinion LDs and OOBEs are forms of concentration practice, so you might want to switch practices a little if you're set on getting back there.

Another thing to watch out for is that there are states out there that are quite strange and don't have any common labels. One that I've strayed into a couple of times sounds similar to yours - it is simply like being awake, but in a featureless or very simple, limited space. There is no way out or in, which can lead to panic, but is simply the nature of the state; there's nothing you can do about it, except to pass into another state. (I suspect that states like these are on the boundary between LD and OOBE.)

I'd ditto Kenneth, then, but suggest that practices for concentration and OOBE *may* get you back there quicker. And vipassana, of course, is always available as your tool to see through any state which arises.

Duncan.
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tarin greco, modified 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 11:01 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/2/09 11:01 PM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
perhaps laying down to meditate when you're not tired, or laying on a harder surface like the floor, or sitting in a more relaxed and open position, like leaning against a chair or on a sofa?
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triple think, modified 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 2:45 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 2:45 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Just thought I would point out that in the past at times when insight was going on really intensely I found even the short period of deep sleep I'd occasionally get is really appreciated. Not that this is an issue because I don't need much sleep when that is going on. Just a big meal every day. There was a period where I didn't train before sleep that way because I didn't want to increase sluggishness but I can use the breath to get to any number of desirable states for sleeping quickly now. I get great rest and it doesn't impair my practice. There could be more rocky stretches of another kind ahead, I'm not sure. But that is some of the kinds of changes that slowly unfolded so far. I have avoided using dream content for practice. I suppose I am going to have to deal with it somehow but it is so friggin surreal.
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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 4:19 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 4:19 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

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prisoner,

makes perfect sense. i'm actually more comfortable meditating on a chair with a back rest because it makes me relax more.

but i'm challenging myself to meditate in a more "traditional" posture, like the open lotus position. i understand that this is not required but it's part of the discipline of practice. this also gives me an opportunity to observe any muscular pain whenever it arise.

that said, lying down and sitting on a comfortable chair are excellent way to get faster to relax. will vary my meditation sittings and see what works best.

~C
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 4:23 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 4:23 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: GhostLLP

I think Duncan is right on here. This looks to me like classic astral projection (OBE) related phenomena.

You reached the perfect mind awake/body asleep state, and the vibrations felt were the projection of the etheric body. Your dual awareness was caused by the "mind split effect" of your multiple projected doubles.

You probably recalled only fragmented memories of being out of body, for example walking out the door, being in the "void" because of the memory download issues of the mind split. These are known as shadow memories.

I would highly recommend exploring astral projection further, as you seem to have a fairly natural draw towards it. Check out the works of Robert Bruce and such.
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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 4:30 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 4:30 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

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yes, it is indeed so friggin surreal! so surreal that whenever i become lucid in dreams i don't remember to practice vipassana. it's easy to get lost in content. however, as i mentioned before, most of my mind-blowing experiences (some of them characteristics of A&P) happened during lucid dreams. this is the reason why i continue to maintain my dream practice in conjunction with vipassana.

in my own illusory reasoning, doing vipassana practice during waking and lucid dream practice during dreaming would make me more accident prone to awakening emoticon

~C
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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 4:41 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 4:41 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 0 Join Date: 7/26/09 Recent Posts
Duncan,

thanks for the tips. will try them out assuming i remember them in the dream state emoticon

actually, i did practice OOBE years ago. in fact, i practiced it before lucid dreaming. there is a whole debate about the two which maybe we can hash out on a different thread. however, i'm in the camp wherein OOBE is a form of Lucid Dreaming and not the other way around. i came to this opinion because most of my so-called OOBE experiences happened in a lucid dream. and also, lucid dreaming is more scientifically-friendly and plausible than the OOBE theory. from a nondual perspective i think lucid dreaming holds more water than the more dualistic language and interpretations of OOBE. who is it that goes out of the body?

that said, i make no distinctions between the two and i find their technique to be helpful. in short, OOBE and lucid dreaming are the same banana to me emoticon

~C
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triple think, modified 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 5:02 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 5:02 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
There is no distinction ultimately because it all has the same basis. These kinds of skills are also related to cultivation and so traditionally quite a lot of these capabilities and many more are ascribed to a Buddha and various of them to others who have perfected these forms of practice and mastered the necessary full understanding. That this is at all possible adequately encompasses the totality of my experience but I am in no position to concern myself with these additional capacities while I have the central issue of full awakening to concern myself with. This kind of phenomena impinges on my work from time to time. That is why I don't give it more attention. It all comes up in waking practice anyways in one way or anther. It is eliminating the specific delusion and ignorance involved in more direct ways that moves me forward expediently. Anything we can nail down to a certainty via clear and direct knowledge about all this far out stuff is something we didn't know before with that kind of clarity. I just don't think these are vital ways to employ the training of the mind most beneficially overall.

If your conditions warrant more attention to dreaming please go ahead on it and share anything valuable you learn. I consider the advice to stay within the body and focused on the marks and conditions in a full waking state to be most important. We are working to wake up fully and man, sleep starts to get precious along that way.

If it is simply more practice time in the day for now, go for broke if it's working. For me this kind of stuff all night can be awful on a long retreat, I turn it all off. Better than hollywood, not better than sleep. I need hardcore all day waking practice and hardcore sleep time.
I wanna getter done. Then maybe try to make a cup of coffee magically appear.
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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 5:37 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 5:37 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

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well said. definitely agree with your take on it. staying in the body in full waking state is more important. that's why i decided to take the plunge and commit myself to daily vipassana practice emoticon

and yes, sleep is precious. but what would be more precious for me is to be able to become aware of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep states.

~C
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triple think, modified 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 5:57 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 5:57 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
That would be nice but when I do long months of daily practice to get through some of the work I get very few hours of sleep over a longer term. Not enough real solid rest and the mind starts to fabricate too much agitation and it becomes counter productive. I can sustain the momentum of my approach much longer by entering a void to rest than by letting attention to all that stuff go on continually for days and days on end. I have been wide awake for over ten days without unconsciousness. Man, do not go there unless you contemplate the conditions well and fully!

I can let myself get amused by the things my mind can turn to all day or night much easier in the times where I am taking it easy and just remaining mindful without a strongly focused non stop practice. If you ask me the magical part of things is all over the place, we live in a world of illusions. It honestly doesn't ever help me as much to mess with everything in a lot of ways that I could as it does to simply note it all clearly in passing and filing it.

I feel I need the fully awakened wisdom first to go with the responsibilities of additional abilities and forms of understanding. There is too much to know else wise from the essential thing. As far as I can see the right use of these skills demands a fully awakened transcendent wisdom. I know I can do and experience things that do not fall into rationalized perspectives at all but it all does arise and cease the same. It is a question of ethical conduct for me and there is too much obscuring ignorance to become active in the confidence that I am not harming any other beings and some of this phenomena is harmful as easily as it can be beneficial. This is my thinking having had to deal with the same kind of mind and body as you have. Does it make sense?
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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 7:09 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 7:09 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

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triplethink,

good to hear you've had an experience of unbroken consciousness. i agree with your assessment, even if i don't have that kind of experience, yet. that's why i'm looking forward to it so i can "own" it and make it part of my experiential understanding.

yes, there is so much knowledge out there and i believe that even enlightened beings can't know them all because they are in the realm of forms (which is infinite and part of our never-ending Training in Morality). that's why insight and wisdom are essential before we play around with these things.

makes sense to me. i share your opinion in general.

~C
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triple think, modified 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 11:15 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 11:15 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
All along I would say it is optimal for up to about 30 hours and then it degrades owing to physical conditions. These can be overcome but at an increasing cost. It can be more disabling to not be able to sleep over time. There are times I have thought that perhaps Arahats or Buddhas do not sleep normally at all but I will see what happens if and when.

Good luck and happy hunting with all your investigations. You have your own particular conditions and qualities that you know best. This could be something you need to explore now. For me it is that last thing I want to do in that way at this point. I hope investigating dream states proceeds very well for you and that you can share some insights gained from it.
Frater Geur, modified 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 8:21 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/3/09 8:21 PM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 24 Join Date: 9/9/09 Recent Posts
@c4chaos Although it's possible to non-lucidly dream that you are lucid dreaming, and to lucid dream that you are having an OOBE, I'd claim there are clear signs that distinguish an OOBE from an LD. Just as there are clear signs that differentiate the jhanas from the formless realms. Might be worth considering whether this experience seemed so freaky because it was new to you - i.e. an OOBE instead of lucid dreaming about having an OOBE! (Only you can tell.) I agree with you re. 'the astral body'. But in my experience the duality that afflicts us in the waking state continues its hold on us into the sleep states - so I don't think there's anything more inherently dualistic about the notion of OOBE than our conceptualisation of any other state.

@triplethink: Maybe we can take it for granted that people using this site are committed to the path of dry insight practice. I am! I frequently notice people on this forum conveying the opinion that topics like these are irrelevant. Yet the 'powers' are included in the models of awakening, and the section on the powers was one of those that Daniel chose to expand significantly in his book. He actually provides his readers with specific instructions on how to work magick. Personally speaking, it was practical experience of magick that enabled me to grasp what buddhism might actually be about - something that years of listening to buddhist teachers singularly failed to do. Experience of the powers arises as a corollary of the process of awakening - we don't have to go seeking them out specifically to have experiences of them. If it weren't for my experiences in this realm, I certainly wouldn't be doing daily, committed vipassana practice!
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triple think, modified 15 Years ago at 3/4/09 1:23 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/4/09 1:23 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
@Duncan: Sorry if that sounded discouraging. Not my intention. I was sharing some of my experience with the long term effects of "no-sleep". What can be expected of not ever sleeping for days and weeks at a time. It is not very dry anymore after one is awake for a couple weeks! Maintaining a long term waking state results in unusual phenomena aplenty but is a very harsh austerity for the body and the physical conditions have impacts the mind. People do what they like, just adding my hard won info to the mix here and there.

I'll have to see what Dan's added, thanks, I didn't know that he had updated that part. The jury is out for me on the magic stuff. All hail vipassana!
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/4/09 1:41 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/4/09 1:41 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: GhostLLP

triplethink, out of curiosity, when you are talking about "no-sleep," are you talking about maintaining awareness for days through practices such as lucid dreaming? Or are you talking about literally not physically sleeping?
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triple think, modified 15 Years ago at 3/4/09 2:10 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/4/09 2:10 AM

RE: Fear of the White Open Space

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Both. I don't think there is much difference after three or four days of 'unbroken' consciousness. The dream state and the waking state sort of merge. I was responding to the idea of being conscious, lucid or aware 24/7 by whatever means. In my case a long waking period (occurs, often, lasts 2-4 days+) almost always begins in a waking state but what I've found is that if the mind and body don't get downtime (min. 36/6 for me) a whole other set of processes start to take off. I'm not trying to scare anyone away from maintaining consciousness, just provide what insights I can into what that is like long term. It gets very weird after about a week. The mind is entirely capable of the unimaginable. The body probably is not. Not that one couldn't master it either. I'm not a Taoist. Not seeking that kind of super human condition. I'm after wisdom as I understand it.

I'm extremely hypersensitive. It took me years to find the accelerator pedal for my metabolism. It used to buzz like a humming bird. I've always been lean and muscular. Sensitive all around, mind and body. Fasting and long term wakefulness are, to my thinking, classic extreme austerities. It takes time to explore them and it should be done cautiously, slowly pushing the envelope. At a certain point, not eating or not sleeping enter autopilot and become effortless. One needs to monitor their physical and mental health very carefully. That's honestly what I think. If you already 'have a life' 'this one' probably won't fit that well. If you live on a mountainside in a rain forest like I have for the last 20 years no one is going to mind.

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