On morality: The Strange Persistence of Guilt - Discussion
seth tapper:
Free will is a complete lie.
Since your post in the other thread, something along the lines of "what you said is close to what I see, without the freedom", I was wondering what you meant. I had a suspicion it was due to agencylessness, this seems to support that.
I can't speak for anyone else, and I could be completely deluded, but here's my take on free will. First I saw agencylessness so clearly I couldn't deny it anymore. For a while it felt like life had no meaning and there was no free will and it was all pointless, yet oddly beautiful and vivid despite being empty. Then over time I realized that just because the "I" is empty, that doesn't negate it, or mean that it should be dropped or wiped out. It continues to function largely as before, the only difference is there is now awareness that it's empty. In other words, free will and intention aren't negated by emptiness, they're just realized to be empty like everything else. There is absolute freedom, but no one owns it. There is choice, but no one chooses.
Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.
*this is not a claim of any particular stage, attainment, or path, no refunds, not valid in some states, void where prohibited
If i'm wrong, please poke some holes in my view.
Sorry, don't mean to threadjack.
There is absolute freedom, but no one owns it. There is choice, but no one chooses.:
Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.
*this is not a claim of any particular stage, attainment, or path, no refunds, not valid in some states, void where prohibited
If i'm wrong, please poke some holes in my view.
Sorry, don't mean to threadjack.
I seem to have pissed off Adromeda enough that i doubt thread jacking will trigger any worse of a response. In my own mind, things just arise and pass away. No one has any control over what comes and goes. The feeling of agency is a feeling and it is fabricated by the brain the same way other feelings are. In detail, the feeling of agency is actually just a form of anxiety. The brain has a system for self evaluation and optimization and it tenses certain muscles as a signal for how well it feels it is doing in a particular situation and reads that as anxiety. Having anxiety about an action, in turn, the brain assumes it must be responsible for it. We have all had experiences where we were lost in the moment and stuff just seemed to happen or come out of us - the zone. The same stuff is happening, but for whatever reason, the evaluation system is switched off and we feel no agency or anxiety. You do not miss it.
seth tapper:
There is absolute freedom, but no one owns it. There is choice, but no one chooses.:
Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.
*this is not a claim of any particular stage, attainment, or path, no refunds, not valid in some states, void where prohibited
If i'm wrong, please poke some holes in my view.
Sorry, don't mean to threadjack.
I seem to have pissed off Adromeda enough that i doubt thread jacking will trigger any worse of a response. In my own mind, things just arise and pass away. No one has any control over what comes and goes. The feeling of agency is a feeling and it is fabricated by the brain the same way other feelings are. In detail, the feeling of agency is actually just a form of anxiety. The brain has a system for self evaluation and optimization and it tenses certain muscles as a signal for how well it feels it is doing in a particular situation and reads that as anxiety. Having anxiety about an action, in turn, the brain assumes it must be responsible for it. We have all had experiences where we were lost in the moment and stuff just seemed to happen or come out of us - the zone. The same stuff is happening, but for whatever reason, the evaluation system is switched off and we feel no agency or anxiety. You do not miss it.
See my warning, please.
Thanks again for the no religion link, it just confirms what i've been learning by speaking with a co-worker (and others previously) during breaks etc. She's a Christian and meditates in a manner similar to Saint John of the Cross. What we call nibbana she calls "the eternal". She describes nimitta, piti, non-dual perception etc, but uses Christian terms to do so. We smile and laugh as we both describe similar insights despite our so called different faiths. I gave her a copy of "When Things Fall Apart" by Pema Chödrön. She really liked it, and was amused that Pema is now living in Nova Scotia, where she's from.
The link also confirmed that there's still some "cooling down" to do.
The link also confirmed that there's still some "cooling down" to do.
Lars:
Thanks again for the no religion link, it just confirms what i've been learning by speaking with a co-worker (and others previously) during breaks etc. She's a Christian and meditates in a manner similar to Saint John of the Cross. What we call nibbana she calls "the eternal". She describes nimitta, piti, non-dual perception etc, but uses Christian terms to do so. We smile and laugh as we both describe similar insights despite our so called different faiths. I gave her a copy of "When Things Fall Apart" by Pema Chödrön. She really liked it, and was amused that Pema is now living in Nova Scotia, where she's from.
The link also confirmed that there's still some "cooling down" to do.
The link also confirmed that there's still some "cooling down" to do.
To actually reply regarding the original topic...
In my experience guilt has to be forgiven before you can make any real progress on the path. I used to be consumed with self loathing and guilt for the things "I allowed to happen to me" as a kid (various forms of abuse), which also manifested as constant rumination when trying to sleep or relax etc. Eventually I began metta practise, and grudgingly included my self in that forgiveness and love and compassion etc. I didn't think I deserved it, all the usual self destructive drama queen stuff. Eventually it began to help, and I noticed that more the more I was able to forgive myself, the more I was able to forgive and show compassion to others (including those who had abused me). When that became clear it made it easier to forgive myself (since it didn't feel as selfish anymore) and it became a positive reinforcement loop instead of a negative one.
It's interesting that the author mention mentions a feeling of indebtedness, if anything I feel gratefulness, not a debt. That may be due to the author seeming to come from more of a christian perspective, in which there's a permanent soul that accumulates a debt from sin and is paid back through penance. In a paradoxical way I do intent to "pay it forward", but not out of guilt.
I've been posting more than usual lately, if i'm becoming "that guy", feel free to tell me to go sit some more lol.
In my experience guilt has to be forgiven before you can make any real progress on the path. I used to be consumed with self loathing and guilt for the things "I allowed to happen to me" as a kid (various forms of abuse), which also manifested as constant rumination when trying to sleep or relax etc. Eventually I began metta practise, and grudgingly included my self in that forgiveness and love and compassion etc. I didn't think I deserved it, all the usual self destructive drama queen stuff. Eventually it began to help, and I noticed that more the more I was able to forgive myself, the more I was able to forgive and show compassion to others (including those who had abused me). When that became clear it made it easier to forgive myself (since it didn't feel as selfish anymore) and it became a positive reinforcement loop instead of a negative one.
It's interesting that the author mention mentions a feeling of indebtedness, if anything I feel gratefulness, not a debt. That may be due to the author seeming to come from more of a christian perspective, in which there's a permanent soul that accumulates a debt from sin and is paid back through penance. In a paradoxical way I do intent to "pay it forward", but not out of guilt.
I've been posting more than usual lately, if i'm becoming "that guy", feel free to tell me to go sit some more lol.
Lars:
To actually reply regarding the original topic...
In my experience guilt has to be forgiven before you can make any real progress on the path. I used to be consumed with self loathing and guilt for the things "I allowed to happen to me" as a kid (various forms of abuse), which also manifested as constant rumination when trying to sleep or relax etc. Eventually I began metta practise, and grudgingly included my self in that forgiveness and love and compassion etc. I didn't think I deserved it, all the usual self destructive drama queen stuff. Eventually it began to help, and I noticed that more the more I was able to forgive myself, the more I was able to forgive and show compassion to others (including those who had abused me). When that became clear it made it easier to forgive myself (since it didn't feel as selfish anymore) and it became a positive reinforcement loop instead of a negative one.
It's interesting that the author mention mentions a feeling of indebtedness, if anything I feel gratefulness, not a debt. That may be due to the author seeming to come from more of a christian perspective, in which there's a permanent soul that accumulates a debt from sin and is paid back through penance. In a paradoxical way I do intent to "pay it forward", but not out of guilt.
I've been posting more than usual lately, if i'm becoming "that guy", feel free to tell me to go sit some more lol.
In my experience guilt has to be forgiven before you can make any real progress on the path. I used to be consumed with self loathing and guilt for the things "I allowed to happen to me" as a kid (various forms of abuse), which also manifested as constant rumination when trying to sleep or relax etc. Eventually I began metta practise, and grudgingly included my self in that forgiveness and love and compassion etc. I didn't think I deserved it, all the usual self destructive drama queen stuff. Eventually it began to help, and I noticed that more the more I was able to forgive myself, the more I was able to forgive and show compassion to others (including those who had abused me). When that became clear it made it easier to forgive myself (since it didn't feel as selfish anymore) and it became a positive reinforcement loop instead of a negative one.
It's interesting that the author mention mentions a feeling of indebtedness, if anything I feel gratefulness, not a debt. That may be due to the author seeming to come from more of a christian perspective, in which there's a permanent soul that accumulates a debt from sin and is paid back through penance. In a paradoxical way I do intent to "pay it forward", but not out of guilt.
I've been posting more than usual lately, if i'm becoming "that guy", feel free to tell me to go sit some more lol.
I think what you are saying is totally in line with the author of the article. He takes the Judao-Christian perspective, but any sincere religious approach would likely work as you have found and the difference is primarily just linguistic. There are many ways to say the same thing. Are you familiar with the Buddhadasa Bhikku's sermon No Religion? At their core, all religions are basically saying that we should love each other and not be selfish. At the most advanced level of practice, there really isn't any such thing as religion at all.
I have also found the brahma viharas to be the best way of "paying things forward" and feel gratitude for the guilt that has fueled this practice. From the guilt springs love, and so it is not something to simply be meditated away. There is a transformation that has to happen.
Andromeda:
We should all go sit some more, as there is always more to learn and growth never stops. That said, no worries
Are you familiar with the Buddhadasa Bhikku's sermon No Religion? At their core, all religions are basically saying that we should love each other and not be selfish. At the most advanced level of practice, there really isn't any such thing as religion at all.
I have also found the brahma viharas to be the best way of "paying things forward" and feel gratitude for the guilt that has fueled this practice. From the guilt springs love, and so it is not something to simply be meditated away. There is a transformation that has to happen.
Are you familiar with the Buddhadasa Bhikku's sermon No Religion? At their core, all religions are basically saying that we should love each other and not be selfish. At the most advanced level of practice, there really isn't any such thing as religion at all.
I have also found the brahma viharas to be the best way of "paying things forward" and feel gratitude for the guilt that has fueled this practice. From the guilt springs love, and so it is not something to simply be meditated away. There is a transformation that has to happen.
Agreed that growth never stops. There is nothing that needs doing, but that includes "not doing".
Thanks for the link (and the mention of the brahma viharas), something to read when I get home from work tonight. There is no benefit to carrying around the raft once you reach the other shore, i'm just making sure i'm not still out in the river first. Last time I tried that I drowned for a while.
Regarding love and compassion, it seems to be a natural consequence of practise, though metta etc does seem to jump start that process.
To Seth, I am not denying agencylessness. What i'm pointing out is that despite there being agencylessness, there is still choice and free will. If you attach yourself to agencylessness and are aversive to the function of intent/choice, have you really let go? An actor plays a role, despite not "actually being" the person he plays (or the one who wrote the script). In a similar way I can make choices and exercise "free will" despite understanding that ultimately I don't do any of it. Previously I was an actor who believed I was my character, now I joyfully choose to play that role despite knowing it's all bullshit.
