Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Daniel M. Ingram 3/27/09 5:40 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Nathan I S 3/27/09 6:41 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Chuck Kasmire 3/27/09 6:53 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening C4 Chaos 3/27/09 8:01 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Hokai Sobol 3/27/09 8:01 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening C4 Chaos 3/27/09 8:01 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Wet Paint 3/27/09 8:06 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Kenneth Folk 3/27/09 9:51 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Jackson Wilshire 3/27/09 10:14 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Gozen M L 3/27/09 10:28 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Wet Paint 3/27/09 10:56 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Wet Paint 3/27/09 10:56 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Kenneth Folk 3/27/09 5:32 PM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Hokai Sobol 3/28/09 4:50 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Hokai Sobol 3/28/09 5:05 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening tarin greco 3/28/09 5:23 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Hokai Sobol 3/28/09 5:57 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Gozen M L 3/28/09 8:05 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Gozen M L 3/28/09 8:11 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Wet Paint 4/2/09 9:50 PM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening beta wave 4/3/09 12:01 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Wet Paint 4/3/09 12:59 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening beta wave 4/3/09 3:08 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Wet Paint 4/3/09 5:25 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Vincent Horn 4/3/09 6:00 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Vincent Horn 4/3/09 6:06 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening triple think 4/3/09 9:36 AM
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening Kenneth Folk 4/4/09 8:25 PM
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 5:40 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 5:40 AM

Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Forum: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

Experts clearly disagree on aspects of this topic, as may some here. I thought we should have a place to debate and discuss this perennial topic which continues to surface in other threads on this site.
Nathan I S, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 6:41 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 6:41 AM

RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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How much of this stems from the nature of practice? If I understand correctly, Vajrayanism involves an element of devotion to invite in a bigger persprective that dissolves subject-and-object; "no-dogism" is similar in that it involves stabilizing the "no dog" to dissolve the subject/object; and the Theraveda suggestion is to just keep looking at an (or lots of) object until you hit the Three Characteristics perfectly and these come back around into the subject. These processes (at least the initial pure-subject "no dog" / mahamudra vs. the subject-object) seem so different and at least in theory (and judging from some cursory practice with the "no dog") seem to be using different avenues such that I can totally understand why there'd be debate.

additionally are they suggesting different "ends" to practice after awakening? I for one have a comic book conception where the Vajrayanists get awakened to get awesome magickal powers they use to reincarnate over and over, but this is a lot like the David Carridine Kung Fu Model
Chuck Kasmire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 6:53 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 6:53 AM

RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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“There are multiple paths to the same fundamental understanding, and that fundamental understanding may be expressed various ways, but that doesn’t change the basic fact of what that fundamental understanding is. That said, the different techniques, approaches and emphases may produce different peripheral skill sets and appreciations of things along the way as well as different shadow sides and problems.”

This also reflects my own view. Additionally, when we communicate with others about our experience we will naturally rely on those skill sets, appreciations, terminology (as well as shadow sides and problems). This is normal as we have no other way to communicate our subjective experience but through the terminology and practices that we have learned - but can make it seem like we are speaking of a different experience.

However we want to describe this awakening experience – clearly it develops over time (perhaps without end) and it is useful to define certain stages. And once we try to slice it up this also leads to more confusion and debate.

Practice:
From my own experience I would say 'cushion jumping' (switching from one practice to another) is one byproduct of this debate. I have also seen lots of 'cushion denigrating' (my cushion is better than your cushion) over the years. Previous to coming to DhO, I had a pretty narrow definition of the practice and result based on my own experience. This has given me the opportunity here to work with 'frustration energy' and have probably helped others with their own. In fact, more and more, I am appreciating this sort of open discussion and debate as an important part of practice and I think it is valuable no matter where one is on this path.
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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 8:01 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 8:01 AM

RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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thanks, Daniel for creating a place for this and kicking off the discussion of this perennial topic. anyone who studies "spirituality", particularly the notion of "enlightenment", will eventually get confused and frustrated by contrasts between different schools and traditions. the contrast increases when we start to add the perspective of Western science. this frustrated the hell out of me until i encountered Ken Wilber's integral theory/philosophy (see http://bit.ly/12zGAK), and the Buddhist two truths doctrine: the absolute and relative (see http://bit.ly/1qpve7). i find these meta-concepts to be very useful for *navigating* and *categorizing* the onslaught of conflicting information that i encounter along the way.

from an integral perspective, "single" vs. "multiple" types of awakening are viewed from the notion of levels and lines of development, as well as horizontal and vertical types of enlightenment (see http://bit.ly/mk8DG). when viewed from this perspective, the differences between traditions are no longer that confusing. yes, there *are* still differences but we now can contain all of them without getting lost and frustrated. it's just a matter of recognizing the relative truths of contrasting practices and then picking one (or a number of them) that best fits our temperament.

(cont.)
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 8:01 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 8:01 AM

RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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It's important to note that a recognition of multiple paths leading to the same fundamental understanding is one that cannot arise in a premodern horizon. The postmodern horizon will, however, highlight important irreducible differences between paths (and paths are always a marriage of practices and doctrines, so that each - practices and doctrines - serve as contexts to the other). A post-postmodern horizon will begin to reassemble the fragmented multiplicity in flexible ways to discover a deep unity behind practical and doctrinal appearances, gradually uncovering a hidden gradient of depth and eventually nonrelativity as the foundation of various paths. Comparisons of maps from traditions as different as Orthodox Christianity, Vedanta, and Mahamudra have shown general resemblances and mutliple cross-confirmations, in spite of affirmative vs. negative language differences and theistic vs. non-theistic primary orientations. This however doesn't mean there is a "pure", neutral gradient of realization to be found "out there", some sort of "objective" fundamental actuality. The path itself is enacted and co-created as we go, but such dynamic enactment itself is a recent insight, to which many spiritual practitioners and practices haven't been updated.
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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 8:01 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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from a Buddhist two truths doctrine perspective, my understanding is that, from the absolute perspective, enlightenment is *one and the same* for everyone. the Buddha's enlightenment is the same as Daniel Ingram's enlightenment, the same as Adyashanti's, the same as Kenneth's and the same enlightenment that i will realize (if and when i get "there"). however, from the relative perspective, the expression of that enlightenment will always be different based on a person's bias, temperament, habits, preferences, or/and karma. different teachings of enlightenment, whether direct or progressive, or whatever, are different forms of expressions of the same thing. a multi-faceted jewel is perhaps one of the best metaphor for this. in Daniel's terminology, we can awaken to the absolute but the "Training in Morality" is never-ending.

so the bottom line for me is: it's very useful to have a meta-concept/philosophy to contain the differences that arise from different spiritual traditions because it would make it less likely to confuse us along the way. but it's important to pick a practice (or mix of practices) to stick to transform ourselves. eventually, if and when we get "there." we'll be expressing them based on our limited concepts and knowledge. that's why different awakened people since time immemorial had different expressions, since their expressions were influenced by their personal bias, their culture, karma, and whatever unknown unknowns.

my two cents.

~C
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 8:06 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 8:06 AM

RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Author: Crazywisdom

As mentioned in another post Dirk Al got first path with budhist meditation (I think Vipassana) then lost it and regained it through Mantak Chias meditations. He got back to exactly the same place despite folowing a completly different type of meditation almost exclusively focused on manipulating chi and he experienced the stages up untill stream entry as very different within the two systems. This is a partial account of his story but a lot of interesting detail and surrounding stuff is not mentioned:

http://www.universal-tao.com/TheDarknessReview/TheDarknessReview1.2.html
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Kenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 9:51 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Following Chomsky and Wilber, we can speak of deep structure and surface structure. To illustrate the concept, every human has a face, but within that basic (deep) structure, there is almost infinite variation (surface structure); so much so that any individual can be picked out of a crowd.

The deep structure of Reality is Reality itself. In other words, most people would agree even from a purely philosophical point of view that no matter what one says about it, Reality must be real. It is what it is (whatever that is).

To be enlightened is to Realize what is real. So Reality is the one and only deep structure.

The surface structure in this case is perspective. Through which lens is Reality seen? The two most popular perspectives are:

1) All is flux (Theravada).
2) Awareness is prior to the arising of time, and therefore cannot be said to be permanent or impermanent.

Often, people try to use one perspective to trump the other. This is folly, as you can't see both perspectives at the same time. As Shinzen Young would say using the language of quantum physics, you can see either the wave or the particle, but not both. No one will ever win the argument of which of the two main surface structures can beat up the other one, because it is a false dilemma. It's better, in my opinion, to become a student of perspectives. Get enlightened using your favorite modality (or modalities). Then, find out what the opposing camp is talking about. Don't dismiss them as either a bunch of stunted, selfish cave dwellers (Theravadists), or as an entire tradition of perennially stuck Pollyannas who somehow can't develop past the level of anagami (Zen, Advaita). When you do their practice, you can see that various traditions are using different perspectives (surface structures) to talk about the same Reality (deep structure). No need to be married to a perspective.
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 10:14 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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It seems to me that the common goal is to come to a direct realization that the self-sense or centerpoint is illusory, and that all of the other ideals and insights involved with the other types/levels of enlightenment are added to this realization. That's not to say that the other aspects and perspectives aren't important. It just seems to me that to classify an attainment as full enlightenment would have to include the complete unraveling of the illusory centerpoint. In this way, I think that the great paths of awakening all culminate in this great event, whatever they wish to call it.
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Gozen M L, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 10:28 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 10:28 AM

RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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We each resonnate with a particular approach to practice, which itself might be a combination or synthesis of several approaches. When I read Kenneth's postings, I feel a special resonance. Now why is that?

One possibility I'd like to through into this conversation is that we might learn something from turning our attention away from practices, for the moment, and look at **practitioners.** What type of person is attracted to, and finds success with, which type of approach? Might there be some way to identify personality types and then to recommend particular practice approaches on that basis? (It may even be the case that, as a person advances, he or she would be well advised to move from one practice approach to another, radically different one; i.e., from an entirely different tradition.)

I suspect (hypothesize) that there are signs in the body as well as the psyche that could be "read" and used to match people to practices.

Comments?
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 10:56 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 10:56 AM

RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Author: msj123

The reason I say there are multiple paths is less because of the difference between Theravada and Zen, for example, than between those who have awakened their Kundalini or practice Taoist energy arts and those who practice Buddhist/Advaita, etc. paths.
It seems to me that the Kundalini/Taoist angle is more about building and refining energies whereas Buddhism is more about discovering insights. If I were doing a Taoist practice, I might focus on building jing, converting it to chi, then to shen then to Void. If I were doing a Buddhist practice, I may carefully look at reality and see that all things break down into transitory sensory sparks of limited duration, that are not me, and do not satisfy.

Take the case of Amrit Desai. http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j17/desai.asp. Amrit was well known as having high level shaktipat abilities--- but reading his story, I don't think he achieved anything like Buddhist enlightenment. He says so himself. I have also read many accounts of people achieving a state, or OBE, or some energy related phenomenon that they say transformed them in a fundamental way: they find God, heal the body, gain all types of neat superpowers, etc. However, none of these people don't describe the territory I'm more familiar with: the ins and outs of the inner mindscape. They don’t talk about audio/visuals arising in their mental space arising and passing into nothing. They talk about juicing up and flying out.

In Buddhism, the transformation seems to come from wisdom-- seeing that the snake in the road is really a line of ants. You didn't gain or refine energy, you just saw what was there. I can see it in my own practice that as I realize the three characteristics, I tend to lose interest in the dramas of the world.
(cont.)
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 10:56 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 10:56 AM

RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Author: msj123

On the flip side, all the Buddhist practice in the world didn’t do much for increasing my energy and vitality. For that, I turn to chi kung. I can see from practice that chi kung does transform the person, but in a much different way. It seems that chi kung works more on the material parts of the manifestation, subtle as they may be, working on the car so that it runs better. Also, I don’t see Daniel and Kenneth running around giving folks shaktipat (I may be wrong! :-)). I would also note that the Taoist goal is often described as immortality. Is this really the same as liberation?

Matt
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Kenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 5:32 PM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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This is a very provocative idea, Gozen. I'd like to hear more of your thoughts about this.
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 3/28/09 4:50 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Good point. This is closely related to the topic, i.e. singular vs. multiple. The Buddhist traditions speak of the immanent in various ways, from luminous mind in Theravada to buddha-nature to clear light to original wakefulness to the essential unity of three buddha-bodies ("svabhavika"). Of course these concepts are not identical, but they refer to the same fundamental awareness, that is a priori at the very core of our human being. Now, this core or source or essence is not immutable and fixed, nor is it somewhere - whether center or periphery - or everywhere, and is also not "one thing" so that it manifests AS different features, such as clarity, sympathy, will, strength, equanimity etc. in dynamic ways. Even original wakefulness, to take just one feature, is classified according to the buddha-genealogy of "three divisions" in earlier tantras or "five families" in later ones. These various aspects, say energy-insight-love, are often not at all recognized as multiple, non-contradictory expressions of essence, but are given priority based on the limited understanding of those who penetrate the immanent incompletely. So, some will speak of truth and reality, and some will only speak of love as the way; some will teach meditation and equanimity, and yet others will emphasize clarity and insight as that which really liberates; there are those who will teach the way of energy and power, and those who will celebrate service and devotion and acceptance and humility. Some paths will teach more than one virtue, such as three trainings and six perfections in Buddhism, and yet give priority to one as supreme (e.g. wisdom/insight). Other paths will teach pairs of virtues as equally important (e.g. insight/wisdom and love/compassion) and ultimately nondual.

(cont.)
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 3/28/09 5:05 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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(Just for example, DhO community in general gives priority to meditation as the way to a specific insight, which is the cause or even basis of realization defined by the four paths-and-fruitions.)

The problem arises when any of fundamental aspects is grasped unto and misidentified as THE essential or primary attribute of awareness, which leads to considering other approaches secondary, inferior, misguided, or even wrong. If various paths or disciplines are conceptualized as different developmental lines - somewhat similar to multiple intelligences, and not to be confused with stages or levels as some do with three trainings - we can more generously reconcile the different angles or practice-arcs proposed. In addition, there is not only a question of someone's preference, because a preference may be positive (i.e. an expression of particular strength) and also negative (i.e. an expression of particular weakness), as well as both combined. While it is surely beneficial to aim for realization, it is also crucial to work on developing what is neglected or blocked or avoided, and then balancing in a context of unique personal embodiment. In this view, the yearning for wholeness in oneself, and a profound connection to manifest reality of world and others is preferably developed from start of one's conscious spiritual engagement. The first will serve as two-way conduit for what is yet to be realized, and the second will determine what kind of mandala your awakening will unveil and give rise to.

Perhaps in this context, making clear the need for a well-rounded pragmatism, we can consider the "provocative idea" with more discernment.:-)
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tarin greco, modified 15 Years ago at 3/28/09 5:23 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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i think that because of unavoidable differences in trajectories, temperaments, interests and priorities, that traversing even similar territories through following identical instructions can produce different perspectives on what one's awakening really was, and therefore how others' awakenings must be. as hokai puts there, there are 'incomplete penetrations of the immanent', but one point i may well disagree with him here on is whether there is a penetration of it that will encompass all the other penetrations so fully that it can be called complete. i only know what i'm aiming for.. sometimes it looks like what you other guys are talking about, sometimes it looks like it's not. to be sure, a priori, that we're really talking about the same thing is taking certainty too far for my tastes, when there seem to be clear differences. one person's post-postmodernly discovered unity may truly unify various factions within his own drives and views, but still amount to something different from another's united experience.
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 3/28/09 5:57 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Great, Tarin. Of course, I wouldn't speculate too liberally about this complete-total-absolutely-unlimited penetration of the immanent (which is what some take the scriptural "anuttara-samyak-sambodhi" to mean in their imagination), but I do know that what remains impossible for an individual may well be the domain of collective wisdom as it accumulates and grows in deep time. Standing on the shoulders of giants goes a long way, and sharing perspectives with sympathetic comrades in transparent exchange of knowing and not-knowing may just be the road to a more comprehensive, balanced, and life-resembling dharma evolving constantly toward an ever-receding horizon.
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Gozen M L, modified 15 Years ago at 3/28/09 8:05 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Will do. But I'll need more space than this website allows for posted replies and more time to gather all my thoughts together on this topic. I'll start a new discussion thread about it. Also, Gary has some good information that I want to include. So I'll start working on this later today (lots to do with family and such until tonight). I hope to have something together by late Sunday.
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Gozen M L, modified 15 Years ago at 3/28/09 8:11 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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@Hokai: Perhaps in this context, making clear the need for a well-rounded pragmatism, we can consider the "provocative idea" with more discernment.:-)

Excellent! Hokai, you have raised many of the core issues about this topic and, as usual, done so brilliantly. (I'm continually amazed that you are not even writing in your native language!) I'll say more about all this in the new discussion thread I'm planning about personality types and practices.
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 4/2/09 9:50 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 4/2/09 9:50 PM

RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Author: AlanChapman

Experience has taught me that there is but one awakening that is described by many people to varying standards of accuracy and appropriateness.

From beginner to awakened practitioner I have cushion jumped many times: I used puja to Ganesha to start the process (Vedanta. He was also there at the end!), 20th century magical ritual to cross the a&p and approach equanimity, Gurdjieff's Fourth Way to land 1st path (Vipassana), Wu Wei (Taoism) and Maharshi's Self Enquiry to land 2nd (More Vedanta), a combination of the above over 3rd path with Centred Prayer, eventually settling on a new kind of insight practice based on what is essentially a 15th century egyptian magical practice (Oh and there was some noting and zazen thrown in there too at some point). Advaita landed me 4th path.

With each of the above practices I also adopted the relevant models too, and although I will say the 4th path model has shortcomings, every single practice - bringing with it its own peculiar surface features I might add - shared with it the same deep features (i.e. a process made up of stages with increasing experience of enlightenment until a final money shot), and every single description of enlightenment, from God to the Tao to Endlessness to the Divine to Emptiness to Allah were without a shadow of a doubt describing the same thing.

There isn't an argument in existence that can measure up to my own experience and so I can only conclude those that promote the multiple awakening idea have no direct personal knowledge of the various practices and 'types' of promised results/awakenings that they promote.
beta wave, modified 15 Years ago at 4/3/09 12:01 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Looking at the range of responses from my heavily clouded (pre-entry) viewpoint, it seems like 1st and 2nd path are the most variable in experience/interpretation. 3rd path much less so, unless the person hangs out there too long, in which case they get a little strange (blending morality and insight in their descriptions). 4th path seems to resolve much of the disagreements... except maybe about what was required to achieve the earlier paths.

It seems like most practioners hit these stages one by one. Not many stories of multiple path awakenings (like I think I read about in the sutra/historical stories).
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 4/3/09 12:59 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Author: marinr

Hi betawave

Could you talk more about this. Maybe some examples?
beta wave, modified 15 Years ago at 4/3/09 3:08 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Thanks for the question. I forgot to mention that I am interested in feedback... but it's really more of a hunch than anything I can prove, I admit.

It just seems like there are a few teachers I've watched on youtube or read about or sat with -- I don't want to name names, especially since I'm just hypothesizing -- and they are obviously quite accomplished but they seem to be straining, for lack of a better word. Suffering, but higher and deeper... and it permeated the feel of their teaching.

(Yup, I could be projecting. Who am I to judge? Should I keep this to myself, or is it worth putting it out there and getting corrected? etc. etc.)

Before I learned that there were degrees of awakening, it confused the heck out of me. But with the path model, I have this "3rd path stagnation" idea as a running hypothesis. A few months ago (??), there was some talk on this site about how 3rd path is almost a form of dark night for the higher paths... which is kinda consistent with the hypothesis.

I don't know if that clairifies at all?
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 4/3/09 5:25 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Author: marinr

Yes, thanks.

I'd like to ask people who have attained 3rd path: What makes that path into a dark night? Is it because other people have not seen emptiness?
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Vincent Horn, modified 15 Years ago at 4/3/09 6:00 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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From where I'm sitting (ha), the beginning of 3rd path involves seeing emptiness in an incredibly profound way. For me, the several months after that path were the most amazing, empty, effortless, and clear that I've experienced. Then emptiness seemed like it began to fade (which was actually just a new dark night). And since then emptiness has become more and more, nothing special. In Zen I believe they harp on the term, "ordinary mind." And actually, it has been more and more a process of having all my ideals about enlightenment, about what it gives, what it brings me, how it would make me special, how it would somehow be better than this, even how it should or would unfold (danger map geeks, this is painful!) slowly stripped away.

A little story to illustrate my point. Apparently, last night, I woke up and starting speaking in my sleep. My wife told me the next morning that I sat straight up and said to her, "I'm done, not done, done, but this is it. This is it. Just this. This is it." This wasn't a proclamation of realization, believe me, this was and is a proclamation of defeat.

That is why part of 3rd path, from my perspective, is the dark night of the larger cycle (the big cycle). It isn't because other people haven't seen emptiness, it's because one begins to see that emptiness isn't actually anything special. It isn't a refuge that is separate from anything else in this world (which it once seemed). It isn't, as Daniel often points out, a super-space that one can escape to. It's "just this" and from that perspective one in this position can't help but think, "I'm fucked."
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Vincent Horn, modified 15 Years ago at 4/3/09 6:06 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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All that said, this isn't something one can skip to, and though it sounds like the 1st dark night in many ways, it really is happening on a different and more complete level (so far as I can tell). I only say that, because I'd heard descriptions of this phase--Kenneth has been calling it "falling from grace"--but the hearing of it isn't the same as going through it. :-D
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triple think, modified 15 Years ago at 4/3/09 9:36 AM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

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Uhhm...well said.
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Kenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 4/4/09 8:25 PM
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RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
"Putujjana was heartbroken. Without his mother, his father, and Mighty Medicine Woman, how could he go on? He could not go forward and he could not go back. He lay down on the cold ground for seven days and seven nights.

After seven days and seven nights, Putujjana got up, and alone, with no one to comfort him, crossed the third river and continued his quest for the great ocean."

-An excerpt from "The Boy Who Found the Great Ocean"

http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/page/The+Boy+Who+Found+the+Great+Ocean

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