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Check If You’re A Stream Enterer

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Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 8/8/18 10:48 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/7/18 7:09 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Tashi Tharpa 7/9/18 8:00 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/9/18 1:36 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/12/18 1:26 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Tashi Tharpa 7/14/18 7:21 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/15/18 9:38 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Tashi Tharpa 7/16/18 6:28 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/9/18 4:51 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Peter S 7/9/18 5:05 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/9/18 5:57 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/9/18 12:36 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/9/18 1:56 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/13/18 11:57 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/9/18 12:32 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/9/18 12:29 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/10/18 5:26 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/11/18 7:18 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/11/18 8:28 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/12/18 1:18 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/16/18 5:00 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/17/18 1:16 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/17/18 4:36 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Noah D 7/13/18 11:45 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/15/18 6:15 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Noah D 7/16/18 12:30 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/17/18 2:50 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Noah D 7/17/18 8:40 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/17/18 4:23 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/15/18 8:00 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Chris Marti 7/15/18 8:37 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/15/18 10:41 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Chris Marti 7/15/18 10:58 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Chris Marti 7/15/18 11:01 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/15/18 12:30 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/15/18 8:22 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Chris Marti 7/16/18 7:13 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/16/18 8:26 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Chris Marti 7/16/18 10:23 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/15/18 12:07 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/15/18 12:12 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/15/18 12:38 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/15/18 12:54 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/15/18 9:00 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/15/18 11:04 PM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/16/18 5:16 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/16/18 8:26 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/16/18 8:56 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/16/18 5:28 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/16/18 10:22 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Tashi Tharpa 7/16/18 6:33 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/16/18 6:46 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Henry wijaya 7/15/18 10:25 AM
RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer Jim Smith 7/15/18 10:37 AM
Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
8/8/18 10:48 AM
Hi this is my first post after learning from here a lot all these times. Like most of you I meditate from learning via online. I’d like to try help those who come to attainments but not so sure, correct me if I’m wrong as I was having these troubles too.

Lets see the first 3 fetters from the list :
- Identity / sakkaya-ditthi
- Doubt / vicikiccha
- Ritual , rites attachment / silabbata-paramas

These first 3 fetters are the nature of our mind, not our feeling nor our body, not even our citta/consciouness/soul -whicever you like to call.
  
4th fetter is from feelings : ill will
5th fetter is from body : sense desire
6-10th fetters are from citta/soul

Identity is mind-made, what you gather from the day born, a man, friend, father, your job. And then to strengthen the identity, you work on gathering belongings, this is mine, and these and these.

If you’re an animal , without a human mind ,you dont gather identity ,you just gather food to survive, animal dont have belongings, some dont even recognise their mother.

Doubts is what makes you start comparing things. In order to survive in this world , the nature of your mind help you by differentiating a lion is danger but a chicken is yummy. But apart from survival, you doubt everything, compare everything , from your income till your marriage you compare. Fail to understand karma, fail to understand living in this world is full of uncertainty. Till the road of enlightment also you doubt which method is better. Sceptical is good, to find the truth you experiment, experience. Doubt isnt, you compare just what benefits you and your picky mind. When you understand buddha teaching, no doubt, practice and practice. Faith will come when you see the truth through experiencing not just reading. No more comparing when you’ve mastered your own mind.

Rites/Ritual was what happened in india in times of buddha. Nowadays it’s you believing someone sitting up there watching you, or something creepy hiding in darkness ready yo eat you. Therefore, never overestimate anything/anyone, and never underestimate anything/ anyone. You can become gods too with good karma or hungry ghosts too with bad karma. If really you’ve encounter demon or any like that, see it’s a part of your karma too , some karma of your past , bless them with happiness after you receive your karma.

Now because you’re human, most perfect creation on earth you have an intelligent mind, your soul, longing to have more, the greeds is mistaken by your mind, thats why it’s driving you crazy, to collect more in this limited world. Thats why greed is harmful. But if your greed is to expand inward, to liberate, to be boundless then you must be free from your own mind. 

If you have no mind - animal
if you just go by the nature of your mind - people
if you are beyond your own mind - stream enterer

But not yet free from the fetters of feeling , body and citta. For example you go to a dentist without anaesthetic, your mind already makes you suffer, before and after. A stream enterer has no fear from the mind, only suffer in his feeling and body when operation in progress. 

When Buddha said you’re not going to be born in lower realm, it means, even you’re borned there, the hell wont accept you. Imagine the punisher find a man without identity to hold, doubt and fear, punishing such person will just make the punisher sad and even quit the job.


.Yes he will experience the pain but as we know how your mind multiple even 100x the pain which makes you suffer most, SE only suffer 1x, continuing might even make this man become anagami.

So check if you’re a stream enterer :
- Suppose you lost all your belongings, will you be ok?
- Suppose you lose all your family, friends , will you be ok?
- Do you still comparing things which makes you sad and strive for more?
- Have you not experience anything yet from your practice of buddha , dharma , sangha? 
- Suppose a big gods or demon appear before you, will you fear?
- Supporse I send you to hell now, to be burned and torture, will you be ok?

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/7/18 7:09 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
For some add ups, seems many confused the enlightment with jhanas, I think this might help.

Imagine fetters like Trees. Each fetters can be cut, by doing Sila to cut the Branches, Jhanas to cut the Trunk and Wisdom to cut the Root.

Isnt it wonderful to live a life as a Sotapanna, stream enterer.
The one who free from his own mind, the master of his mind, not the other way around.
The one who hold no identity, no belongings, no doubt, free from comparison mind, faithful , no fear , heaven cant fulfill him , hell wont accept him.

For such a being, does he need any approval anymore? 
Claim or no-claim isnt a matter anymore, But when claiming is useful , he’ll claim

Metta

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/9/18 4:51 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Does stream entry affect your relationships with other people. For example does it increase or decrease empathy or compassion?

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/9/18 5:05 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
If humans are the most perfect creation on earth, why are they so imperfect?! Haha. 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/9/18 5:57 AM as a reply to Peter S.
They are "perfectly" designed to allow us learn under the great teacher Karma.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/9/18 8:00 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Even according to the traditional 10 Fetters model--which many yogis here at the DhO do not accept, by the way--Stream Entry frees you from the first three fetters only. The list of questions at the end of your post reads like a litmus test for full buddhahood, not Stream Entry. No?

The description of a Sotapanna as one who holds no identity--it would be interesting to get a sharp translator of Pali to explain that further. Is it supposed to mean that a stream enterer has utterly and completely eradicated all identity? I don't think so. Otherwise, wouldn't the tradition then say that all 10 fetters are broken upon this attainment? Notice that conceit--a self-identity view related to whether one is greater or lesser than another--is listed as one of the last fetters to go.

If you're saying that all self-identity views are eradicated upon Stream Entry, then the traditional 10 Fetters model makes no sense. It must be that SE brings about a loosening, a leavening of self-identity views such that one no longer clings to them tightly as before. In that case, it seems very much possible for a Sotapanna to, for example, grieve at the loss of his family or friends.
"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters."

 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/9/18 12:29 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Does stream entry affect your relationships with other people. For example does it increase or decrease empathy or compassion?


At first time the clouds is cleared and the roots is plugged, there’s only confusion : what just happened??
Gradually you perception shifted, you start to talk to others from your new perception of life, just to find out not everyone aim for liberation, some just love samsara/sankhara. Sometimes you even caught in debates. 
So does it affect, of course it will. But you really need to practise wisdom , since you’re free from your own mind, you can start to see how others are entangled by those fetters, finding a way to help others by words would be your goal eventually. Compassion and empathy of course will increase as you already sees that you will do the same if you’re him, identified , doubted , feared by his own mind creation fetters . A stream enterer cannot be hurt just by words from others, bcause he can lose his identity anytime he want. His practise of wisdom will keep on increasing as he sees the beginning and ending of every problem.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/9/18 12:32 PM as a reply to Peter S.
Peter S:
If humans are the most perfect creation on earth, why are they so imperfect?! Haha. 


Simply because of those entanglement or fetters.
Carrying your fetters around you is like a locust, destroying every path you walked on.
After liberated, he sees all those absurdity before him.
A man without fetters is like a bee, nurturing every path he walked on. 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/9/18 12:36 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
They are "perfectly" designed to allow us learn under the great teacher Karma.


Karma isnt our teacher in my opinion, karma is our doings, the seeds we plant. 
Actually in abhidhamma there are detailed explanations for karma.In one seconds there’s thousands to millions thoughts appear and dissapear right away, every thought has its own karma, the seeds. But if you do not nurtured the seeds, the fruit wont come out.So it’s not every seeds you plant will be fruitful. They need right nurtured and conditions to be fruitful.And there’s also unavoidable fruits from direct big seed you plant, which one is catagorized etc.
Now as you’re in the right path, what we need to understand is only these:

  • To plant a great seed, one must be a great farmer first. As long as you still so full of yourself, your good intention might cause harm to others.
  • To go beyond karma, everything you do, you’re not doing it for yourself but for others around you, you do it joyfully as if any fruit that only good for you if it’s towards your liberation.
  • To train yourself beyond whichever bad karma fruits hit you, it won’t be able to harm you anymore.
Metta

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/9/18 1:36 PM as a reply to Tashi Tharpa.
Tashi Tharpa:
Even according to the traditional 10 Fetters model--which many yogis here at the DhO do not accept, by the way--Stream Entry frees you from the first three fetters only. The list of questions at the end of your post reads like a litmus test for full buddhahood, not Stream Entry. No? 

The description of a Sotapanna as one who holds no identity--it would be interesting to get a sharp translator of Pali to explain that further. Is it supposed to mean that a stream enterer has utterly and completely eradicated all identity? I don't think so. Otherwise, okokwouldn't the tradition then say that all 10 fetters are broken upon this attainment? Notice that conceit--a self-identity view related to whether one is greater or lesser than another--is listed as one of the last fetters to go.

If you're saying that all self-identity views are eradicated upon Stream Entry, then the traditional 10 Fetters model makes no sense. It must be that SE brings about a loosening, a leavening of self-identity views such that one no longer clings to them tightly as before. In that case, it seems very much possible for a Sotapanna to, for example, grieve at the loss of his family or friends.
"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters."



Let’s see, if Buddha only talk about sakkaya ditthi as wrongful view of identity, then this is not even beyond duality of his teachings. Sakkaya means self, ditthi means view. Identity means how your view of your own self, created by your own mind. 

Ajahn amaro explain different between conceit/mana and the first fetter here https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=5YdRFlLupUM

C
onceit is what you call as me, the pride and satisfaction arise whenever you’re doing something great.

My questions of course indicating the suffering from your mind, not feeling and body.
For example your family which you identify as family (some has no home so they identify their friends as family) . When they’re so close to you, of course they also become attached to your feelings. Thats why you’ll break your heart seeing them parted, you might cry your eyes out, but as your mind hold no identity, you only experience the emotional upset condition. Sometimes your feeling would trigger your mind to create those memories to pro longed the sadness.

But knowing no identity to be attached with, it will cease right away. 
Knowing that we live in the world full of uncertainty. 
Knowing these people close to you, taken by their karma, you only can do these much.
Knowing anyone can be your family if you’re borned in another body.
Knowing your feeling would hurt, and it’s looking for a way to express its sadness. 

Which then, the 4th fetter ill will from the feeling, will do its work, looking for its way to express its unfulfillment, which will suffers you, which SE not yet eradicated. 
So which suffering he ended are just those 3 from the mind. Identity isnt created by our feeling or body or consciousness, its from our mind’s nature. Jump into Jhana then examined closely, you’ll see its nature, the absurdity of creating identity.

Example of mana/conceit : when a SE guru , having no attached to any identity, proud of his teachings accepted by people and become famous.
These five high fetters are hard to detect as it come from our citta/conscious/soul/perception

Im sorry to be dissapointing if the SE isnt as easy as we think. But looking for Pali translator instead of real SE or Arahants will satisfy us with lovely answers,  or just waiting for real answers when the maggots feasting our body. 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/9/18 1:56 PM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:
Jim Smith:
They are "perfectly" designed to allow us learn under the great teacher Karma.


Karma isnt our teacher in my opinion, karma is our doings, the seeds we plant. 
...
Okay, I don't want to argue about the definition of Karma. 

What I mean is that good actions have good consequences and bad actions have bad consequences and in life or in the afterlife or in future lives, we eventually learn from experiencing the consequences of our actions that it is preferable to experience the good consequences of good actions. 

I don't know if this has anything to do with Buddhism, maybe it doesn't, I am just giving an answer to the question to which I replied according to my spiritual understanding. Being a human gives us many lessons which cannot be learned without taking physical form.


Metta

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/10/18 5:26 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:
Jim Smith:
Does stream entry affect your relationships with other people. For example does it increase or decrease empathy or compassion?


At first time the clouds is cleared and the roots is plugged, there’s only confusion : what just happened??
Gradually you perception shifted, you start to talk to others from your new perception of life, just to find out not everyone aim for liberation, some just love samsara/sankhara. Sometimes you even caught in debates. 
So does it affect, of course it will. But you really need to practise wisdom , since you’re free from your own mind, you can start to see how others are entangled by those fetters, finding a way to help others by words would be your goal eventually. Compassion and empathy of course will increase as you already sees that you will do the same if you’re him, identified , doubted , feared by his own mind creation fetters . A stream enterer cannot be hurt just by words from others, bcause he can lose his identity anytime he want. His practise of wisdom will keep on increasing as he sees the beginning and ending of every problem.

I am wondering about where the information you write about comes from? The sutras? Your personal experiences? Books? Teachers? Other sources?

Is it necessary to meditate daily to remain a stream enterer? If so, can  you say how much per day roughly? One hour? Three hours?


You write: "he can lose his identity anytime he want"

Can he still do it in the middle of the day while working at job that is very stressful (for most people)?  Or does he have to find a quiet place and meditate? What if he hasn't meditated for 5 years?

And is it similar or different to absorbtion where the separation between observer and observed disappears?

Thanks

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/11/18 7:18 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Henry wijaya:
Jim Smith:
Does stream entry affect your dkrelationships with other peoActually you’re right when you  bjsple. For exhample does it increase or decrease empathy or compassion?


At first time the clouds is cleared and the roots is plugged, there’s only confusion : what just happened??
Gradually you perception shifted, you start to talk to others from your new perception of life, just to find out not everyone aim for liberation, some just love samsara/sankhara. Sometimes you even caught in debates. 
So does it affect, of course it will. But you really need to practise wisdom , since you’re free from your own mind, you can start to see how others are entangled by those fetters, finding a way to help others by words would be your goal eventually. Compassion and empathy of course will increase as you already sees that you will do the same if you’re him, identified , doubted , feared by his own mind creation fetters . A stream enterer cannot be hurt just by words from others, bcause he can lose his identity anytime he want. His practise of wisdom will keep on increasing as he sees the beginning and ending of every problem.

I am wondering about where the information you write about comes from? The sutras? Your personal experiences? Books? Teachers? Other sources?ld

Is it necessary to meditate daily to remain a stream enterer? If so, can  you say how much per day roughly? One hour? Three hours?


You write: "he can lose his identity anytime he want"

Can he still do it in the middle of the day while working at job that is nvery stressful (for most people)?  Or does he have to find a quiet place and meditate? What if he hasn't meditated for 5 years?

And is it similar or different to absorbtion where the separation between observer and observed disappears?aij

Thanksm


Actually you’re right when you saying things according to  spiritual understanding not buddhism, which still in the end all these connect back to buddha teaching , I always like to differentiate the buddha teaching with buddhism. You cant blame, it’s a 2500 years of history. I even met a pali translator for tripitaka in my hometown, He put these “wrongful” word in the explanation for sakkaya ditthi (with a sign though ).  I asked him why? He said these would be eaily understood for readers. 

See when we approach teachings it is important to admit things you don’t know. If you beleieve, the truth seeking process will stop. If you disbelieve, you wont want to know furthe and be ignorant. But with “I dont’t know” , it means you are a spiritual person, unbounded by any misleading informations or groups.

It’s just the way we read suttas, reading with non believing and nor disbelieving  or reading with ehipasiko will get you to these information eventually. Of course many bhantes said these too like Ajahn Amaro. 

No I dont meditate nowadays, only when I felt sick or approached by negative beings I meditate. 
I mean you can drop any identitiy anytime, see you have to hold identities when you talk to people, connect with people, but when nobody around, you’re just a gentle whisper of wind blowing in summer breeze. 
When you’re working, people try to stab your identitiy, you can just drop it and know you’re wrong say yeah I admit Im still lots to learn, your mind create no suffering, how can working be stressful? Only when there’s an identity or belongings you try to chase. Try to work as volunteers , stress?  No way. 
It’s like you still know how to ride a bike after 5years no riding. 

That absorbtion you refers ,will leads you to find enlightment, but before you become one with object, one must lose himself entirely, anatta , sensing emptiness in  yourself . There are samadhi , jhanas for cutting branches. Wisdom to plug roots, then when no roots anymore you can lose the seperation of oberver and observed。
The problem are many people thought the separation is dissapeared.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/11/18 8:28 PM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:


Actually you’re right when you saying things according to  spiritual understanding not buddhism, which still in the end all these connect back to buddha teaching , I always like to differentiate the buddha teaching with buddhism. You cant blame, it’s a 2500 years of history. I even met a pali translator for tripitaka in my hometown, He put these “wrongful” word in the explanation for sakkaya ditthi (with a sign though ).  I asked him why? He said these would be eaily understood for readers. 

See when we approach teachings it is important to admit things you don’t know. If you beleieve, the truth seeking process will stop. If you disbelieve, you wont want to know furthe and be ignorant. But with “I dont’t know” , it means you are a spiritual person, unbounded by any misleading informations or groups.

It’s just the way we read suttas, reading with non believing and nor disbelieving  or reading with ehipasiko will get you to these information eventually. Of course many bhantes said these too like Ajahn Amaro. 

No I dont meditate nowadays, only when I felt sick or approached by negative beings I meditate. 
I mean you can drop any identitiy anytime, see you have to hold identities when you talk to people, connect with people, but when nobody around, you’re just a gentle whisper of wind blowing in summer breeze. 
When you’re working, people try to stab your identitiy, you can just drop it and know you’re wrong say yeah I admit Im still lots to learn, your mind create no suffering, how can working be stressful? Only when there’s an identity or belongings you try to chase. Try to work as volunteers , stress?  No way. 
It’s like you still know how to ride a bike after 5years no riding. 

That absorbtion you refers ,will leads you to find enlightment, but before you become one with object, one must lose himself entirely, anatta , sensing emptiness in  yourself . There are samadhi , jhanas for cutting branches. Wisdom to plug roots, then when no roots anymore you can lose the seperation of oberver and observed。
The problem are many people thought the separation is dissapeared.

I don't know what "practice wisdom" means. I checked google it did not help. Can you explain what it is? Studying sutras? Meditating? (Maybe I know it by another term?)

How does one meditate to attain stream entry? There are many different types of meditation. Which do you recommend?

Do you have a web site, or can you suggest a web site that has more information about the school of Buddhism you follow.

Thanks

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/12/18 1:18 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
[quote=Henry wijayxxxaxd

]

Actually you’re rigxht when you saying things according to  spiritual understanding nxxot buddhism, which still in the dend all these connect back to buddha teaching , I always like xto xdifferentiate the buddha ksbdteaching with buddhism. You cant sdsblame, it’s a 2500 years of history. I even met a
d
pali translator for tripitaka in my hometown, He put these “wrongful” word in the explanation for sakkaya ditthi (with a sign though ).  I asked him why? He said these would be eaily understood for readers. 

See when we approach teachings it is important to admit things you don’t know. If you beleieve, the truth seeking process will stop. If you disbelieve, you wont want to know furthe and be ignorant. But with “I dont’t know” , it means you are a spiritual person, unbounded by any misleading in
d
dformations or groups.

It’s just the way we read suttas, reading with non believing and nor disbelieving  or reading with ehipasiko will get you to these information eventually. Of course many bhantes said these too like Ajahn Amaro. 

No I dont meditate nowadays, only when I felt sick or approached by negative beings I meditate. 
I mean you can drop any identitiy anytime, see you have to hold identities when you talk to people, connect with people, but when nobody around, you’re just a gentle whisper of wind blowing in summer breeze. 
When you’re working, people try to stab your identitiy, you can just drop it and know you’re wrong say yeah I admit Im still lots to learn, your mind create no suffering, how can working be stressful? Only when there’s an identity or belongings you try to chase. Try to work as volunteers , stress?  No way. 
It’s like you still know how to ride a bike after 5years no riding. 

That absorbtion you refers ,will leads you to find enlightment, but before you become jone with object, one must lose himself entirely, anatta , sensing emptiness in  yourself . There are samadhi , jhanas for cutkstsing branches. Wisdom to plug roots, then when no roots anymore you can lose the dseperation of oberver and observed。ss
The problem are many people thought the separation is dissapeared.

I don't know what "practice wisdom" means. I checked google it did not help. Can you explain what it is? Studying sutras? Meditating? (Maybe I know it by another term?)

How does one meditate to attain stream entry? There are many different types of meditation. Which do you recommend?

Do you have a web site, or can you suggest a web site that has more information about the school of Buddhism you follow.

Thanks
I dont know if there is a method to meditate into a stream entry, there are ao many out there methods to make you have a glimpse into stream entry, sakadagami, anagami, arahat. But i dont really know one to make you attain them. It’s a practise of wisdom to lose fetters, but even wisdom only release those fetters/entanglement . In enlightment state you got to be totally receiptful,  totally surrender, even wisdom you must give up. 

Practise wisdom is like bringing things you learned in your meditation and see how a non-resistance person you’ve become with these wisdom

So many methods you can try which suitable for you, even this forums has the great noting methods. But the key always the same for jhanas, attain unconditional happiess, equanimous, boundless space, consciousness, emptiness, sensing anatta. Then bring wisdom into practice, how you become solution for others and non a slight of resistance in yourself.  If I have to recommend, I’d recommend that youtube with title “samadhi”. 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/12/18 1:26 PM as a reply to Tashi Tharpa.
Tashi Tharpa:
Even according to the traditional 10 Fetters model--which many yogis here at the DhO do not accept, by the way--Stream Entry frees you from the first three fetters only. The list of questions at the end of your post reads like a litmus test for full buddhahood, not Stream Entry. No?

The description of a Sotapanna as one who holds no identity--it would be interesting to get a sharp translator of Pali to explain that further. Is it supposed to mean that a stream enterer has utterly and completely eradicated all identity? I don't think so. Otherwise, wouldn't the tradition then say that all 10 fetters are broken upon this attainment? Notice that conceit--a self-identity view related to  whether one is greater or lesser than another--is listed as one of the last fetters to go.

If you're saying that all self-identity views are eradicated upon Stream Entry, then the traditional 10 Fetters model makes no sense. It must be that SE brings about a loosening, a leavening of self-identity views such that one no longer clings to them tightly as before. In that case, it seems very much possible for a Sotapanna to, for example, grieve at the loss of his family or friends.
"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters."

 
A good example of a person losing the first fetter sakkaya ditthi / identity / self view :

Imagine a person who lost his memory after w car crash, no identity.
But look ; still have doubts, fear, unsatisfying feeling, excessive body fulfilment, restless, conceit, ignorance.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/13/18 11:45 PM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
No Self view = complete perceptual nonduality in waking hours 
No doubt = complete confidence that one can operate skillfully in any situation
No attachment to rules = complete fluidity & adaptability of behavior & attitude to be happy in life 


RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/13/18 11:57 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Okay, I don't want to argue about the definition of Karma. 

What I mean is that good actions have good consequences and bad actions have bad consequences and in life or in the afterlife or in future lives, we eventually learn from experiencing the consequences of our actions that it is preferable to experience the good consequences of good actions. 

I don't know if this has anything to do with Buddhism, maybe it doesn't, I am just giving an answer to the question to which I replied according to my spiritual understanding. Being a human gives us many lessons which cannot be learned without taking physical form.


Metta



https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/headandheart.html

Head & Heart Together
Bringing Wisdom to the Brahma-viharas
by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2009
...
The teaching on karma starts with the principle that people experience happiness and sorrow based on a combination of their past and present intentions. If we act with unskillful intentions either for ourselves or for others, we're going to suffer. If we act with skillful intentions, we'll experience happiness. So if we want to be happy, we have to train our intentions to always be skillful. This is the first reason for developing the brahma-viharas: so that we can make our intentions more trustworthy.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/14/18 7:21 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:
A good example of a person losing the first fetter sakkaya ditthi / identity / self view :

Imagine a person who lost his memory after w car crash, no identity.
But look ; still have doubts, fear, unsatisfying feeling, excessive body fulfilment, restless, conceit, ignorance.
Well, this is an interesting question: Is losing your memory the same thing as the losing the first fetter?

I don't think it is.

The loss of that first fetter, it seems to me, is the result of the cascading effects on the mind and body of having had the non-experience that is cessation.

My take: After cessation, all of the old habitual patterns and hard-wired forms of reactivity are still in place, but the person can never really go back to being an uninstructed worldling. Something has been glimpsed. It has left a lasting impression.

If a person brings maximum observing power to those patterns and phenomena as they continue to arise and pass away, freedom starts to grow. Equanimity increases.

Doubts, fears, unsatisfying feelings, bodily cravings, restlessness, conceit--these types of things will continue to arise. But, to put it in the words of Kenneth Folk, who I believe may have been quoting or paraphrasing Nisargadatta, they will be less "sticky."

Michael Taft has described research showing how meditative adepts do not get profoundly startled by sudden, loud sounds. This is a good analogy, I think. An adept might have a quick mental/physical reaction to something--let's say someone insults his son, triggering anger and hurt and ill will--but if that adept is paying attention and has the right intentions, this whole process of anger blooming and getting out of control will be short-circuited very quickly. Nobody gets punched or screamed at, and the adept is wise enough not to spend hours and hours thinking about what has just occurred and stirring up all kinds of negative emotions and imagined scenarios. 

I know this is different from the traditional description of complete uprooting. 

I don't really fully buy into that description. I think freedom isn't about fully uprooting; it's more about not clinging to the phenomena associated with experiencing dukkha and spreading it to others. 

The vision of a human being who never experiences anything unpleasant and never does anything unskillful, who moves through the world completely untouched, doesn't seem realistic or inspiring to me. That doesn't mean this never happens. I try to keep an open mind. There are plenty of good teachers who teach the Ten Fetters model in a traditional way and see value in it. I'm following (or trying to) the instructions of Culadasa right now, and he seems to be one of those teachers.

The great thing about Buddhism--you aren't required to believe anything. You can test the teachings and find out for yourself what is true in your own experience. If I'm totally wrong, that's fine! 



  

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 6:15 AM as a reply to Noah D.
Noah D:
No Self view = complete perceptual nonduality in waking hours 
No doubt = complete confidence that one can operate skillfully in any situation
No attachment to rules = complete fluidity & adaptability of behavior & attitude to be happy in  life 



I see you’ve reached such a state.. what a wonderful life isn’t it!

Well when you’ve losen up ur identity then you can see things clear with nonduality.. those are the one of the effects from losing the first fetter.

Still there are areas not in our learnings, there’ll still be mistakes in life but we admit and learn through easily.

When unconditional happines in our hand yes we choose to be happy instead of unhappy , but this fetter is about losing fear actually.

Very nice point of viewNoah

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 9:38 AM as a reply to Tashi Tharpa.
Tashi Tharpa:
Henry wijaya:
A good example of a person losing the first fetter sakkaya ditthi / identity / self view :

Imagine a person who lost his memory after w car crash, no identity. I dont think thats different from tradtitional desc , these are ju
But look ; still have doubts, fear, unsatisfy    ing feeling, excessive body fulfilment, rest  less, conceit, ignorance. 
Well, this is an interesting question: Is losing your memory the same thing as the losing the first fetter?

I don't think it is.

The loss of that first fetter, it seems to me, is the result of the cascading effects on the mind and body of having had the non-experience that is cessation.

My take: After cessation, all of the old habitual patterns and hard-wired forms of reactivity are still in place, but the person can never really go back to being an uninstructed worldling. Something has been glimpsed. It has left a lasting impression.

If a person brings maximum observing power to those patterns and phenomena as they continue to arise and pass away, freedom starts to grow. Equanimity increases.

Doubts, fears, unsatisfying feelings, bodily cravings, restlessness, conceit--these types of things will continue to arise. But, to put it in the words of Kenneth Folk, who I believe may have been quoting or paraphrasing Nisargadatta, they will be less "sticky."

Michael Taft has described research showing how meditative adepts do not get profoundly startled by sudden, loud sounds. This is a good analogy, I think. An adept might have a quick mental/physical reaction to something--let's say someone insults his son, triggering anger and hurt and ill will--but if that adept is paying attention and has the right intentions, this whole process of anger blooming and getting out of control will be short-circuited very quickly. Nobody gets punched or screamed at, and the adept is wise enough not to spend hours and hours thinking about what has just occurred and stirring up all kinds of negative emotions and imagined scenarios. 

I know this is different from the traditional description of complete uprooting.  

I don't really fully buy into that description. I think freedom isn't about   fully uprooting; it's more about not clinging to the phenomena associated with experiencing dukkha and spreading it to others. 
 
The vision of a human being who never experiences anything un   pleasant and never does anything unskillful, who moves through the world completely untouched, doesn't seem realistic or inspiring to me. That doesn't mean this never happens. I try to keep an open  mind. There are plenty of good teachers who teach the Ten Fetters model in a traditional way and see value in it. I'm following (or trying to) the instructions of Culadasa right now, and he seems to be one of those teachers.

The great thing about Buddhism--you aren't required to believe anything. You can test the teachings and find out for yourself what is true in your own experience. If I'm totally wrong, that's fine! 



  
No of course not.. Im just giving this example because you said earlier you said losing the first fetter is like a litmus test in budhahood ,which feel like losing all the 10 fetters. 

The cessation for strean enterer only from mind, not yet the body. If the body, from my experience , I lose all my porn habits, porn thoughts from seeing sexy girls, even in dream I reject temptation from naked surrounding goddess. 
I try to go back but it really such an absurdity, I try to enjoy but cannot anymore.

The less sticky might vary from everybody, some really less , some might still lot.

These are just more specific description, still same with traditional desc ; those negative thoughts fell off as soon as they arise. 

Those clinging you said only exist  in those habitual patterns, which lots also been drop off over time, left only unharmful habitual patterns. 
 The freedom you mention are different from  freedom as arahat, they actually fully uprooted, Stream entererare just less entangled , to prepare the  Self for enlightment

 No those are realistic, untouched, it’s real. Some just mistaked their enlightment for full enlightment. 

The best option for you now is just know it by experience not any words from people org books , by then you know, not making assumption. 
 No, your view is right. You just need to experience.  

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 8:00 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
I think it is very interesting to see the term non-duality is used above. Because that is what it sounds like to me. But I was aware of this essay on accesstoinsight.org so I wasn't sure if I was misinterpreting what I read in this thread.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_27.html
"Dhamma and Non-duality
by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
© 1998
...
The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali canon does not endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety, nor, I would add, can a non-dualistic perspective be found lying implicit within the Buddha's discourses." 

I tend to give much more weight to personal experience like those described in this thread. But if anyone would like to comment on the article, do you agree or not and why, I would be interested in hearing your opinion. Do you agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi's interpretation? Do you think the Pali Canon is incomplete? ( I don't know much about Bhikkhu Bodhi, was he a stream enterer who also had this experience?)


Thanks.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 8:37 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim, are you asking from a practical practice POV or from an intellectual curiosity/philosophical POV?

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 10:41 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Jim, are you asking from a practical practice POV or from an intellectual curiosity/philosophical POV?


I have a lot of questions. I'll dump a bunch of them here:

From a practical practice point of view I would like to know what practices people did that led them to stream entry.

If anyone went from experiencing absorption (when the separation between observer and observed disapears) to stream entry I would like to understand that process, what practices did they do to make that happen. They are both nondual experiences, so what is he difference, is there a qualitative difference or is it just a more permanant extension of the same state?

Regarding the article I asked about: Does a person's theoretical beliefs affect how he interprets his experiences? Are people having the same experience and some say its nonduality and others are saying its not nonduality? If an authority I respect says awakening is not nonduality I might not spend time on practices that seem to produce nondual experiences, I would try something else.

Is nonduality an objective fact of consciousness independent of the physical body, or is it an artifict of an altered brain state? (A neuroscientists can tell you exactly which parts of the brain are responsible for producing the sense of identity. Turn these off through meditation or brain injury and you experience nonduality. http://serendipstudio.org/bb/neuro/neuro01/web3/Farrenkopf.html ) 

Related to the previous question: Does stream entry have any value to you after the body dies. I think you get different answers from ancient Buddhist beliefs and from modern experiencers of near-death experiences and evidential mediums. According to my understanding of Buddhism, awakening ends the cycle of rebirth - it is the end of all spiritual development. Awakening has huge consequences. On the other hand, no one ever came back from an NDE and said "everyone should drop everything and meditate all day so you can get enlightenment and stop reincarnating". NDErs and evidential mediums often say people should be kind to each other, not be materialistic, and love one another. The main purpose of the physical incarnation is to learn to love and to love. You will stop incarnating on the earth plane when you have learned the lessons that school provides. Some say that when they were in the afterlife they had nondual experiences - so attaining a nondual consciousness while in the body would seem to be not very important, not worth giving up all the other types of experiences you can have that are unique to the physicl realm, because you get nonduality for free, effortlessly, when you are dead. And spiritual development never stops, when we are done with physical incarnations, there are realms of pure emotion and pure intellect and others, that we learn from experiencing.

For me, this translates into the practical question: Should I meditate to cultivate nondual experiences or should I meditate to culitivate the brahma viharas? According to my spiritual beliefs (based on modern empirical information) I should do the latter, but every time I read threads like this one, I feel drawn to the former (nonduality) because it sounds enticing but also that it is a distraction from something more important (love).

I'm sure I have many more questions than I can remember right now but I think that is sufficient for one post.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 10:25 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
I think it is very interesting to see the term non-duality is used above. Because that is what it sounds like to me. But I was aware of this essay on accesstoinsight.org so I wasn't sure if I was misinterpreting what I read in this thread.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_27.html
"Dhamma and Non-duality
by  
Bhikkhu Bodhi     
© 1998  
...
The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali canon does not endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety, nor, I would add, can a non-dualistic perspective be found lying implicit within the Buddha's discourses." 

I tend to give much more weight to personal experience like those described in this thread. But if anyone would like to comment on the article, do you agree or not and why, I would be interested in hearing your opinion. Do you agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi's interpretation? Do you think the Pali Canon is incomplete? ( I don't know much about Bhikkhu Bodhi, was he a stream enterer who also had this experience?)


Thanks.
Lol .. I dont know why but there has been long range of history for contrary between buddhist itself ;, theravada, mahayana, tantrayana, etc. 
Even for stream enterer, they still make mistakes. Limited information/knowledge, misleading historical writings from non-enlightment people. 
As I said before the only choice for us now is to experience and look into these teachings as pure as it is , as basic as it is, dont comparing for who’s better sake but only if it’s useful for you to find the wisdom. After all , the teacher is the same one.

Is it matter to you if the one is better than the other one? Dont disregard other teachings, they have their pure teachings and misleading one also, even in christianity you can find truths. As I said, you cant blame, it’s so long ago, too many misintepretation.

As for non duality, my point of view is for the non-duality in samsara.
Fail to see good things can also leads to bad things.
Fail to see the beginnings and endings of all things.
Fail to see the more you know, the more you do not know.

If you’re stream enterer or above you’re already in the non-dualism.
The non-dualism bikkhu bodhi mention in the text is in the last stage distinction between atman  and anatta ( the one self and no-self). He might has his own understanding for these nondualism.  
But for me , I think no-self or anatta is also non-dualism as it is looking the emptiness inside  the self. Emptiness is also non-dualism, isn it?
But if you compare emptiness and existance then this is dualism .

Our best option is now is just we aim into experiencing the emptiness in what you call yourself, no matter it’s dualism or non-dualism. Might be just a play of words afterall

I also have a story to tell if people starting to comparing buddha teaching , theravada, mahayana, tantrayana, abhidhamma . I have an insight for the similiarity instead of the difference from these. Want me to tell the story? Its best not to, bcause it kinda long haha. Best is you people too do not have these contradictives , same teacher after all.




 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 10:37 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:
Lol .. I dont know why but there has been long range of history for contrary between buddhist itself ;, theravada, mahayana, tantrayana, etc. 
Even for stream enterer, they still make mistakes. Limited information/knowledge, misleading historical writings from non-enlightment people. 
As I said before the only choice for us now is to experience and look into these teachings as pure as it is , as basic as it is, dont comparing for who’s better sake but only if it’s useful for you to find the wisdom. After all , the teacher is the same one.

Is it matter to you if the one is better than the other one? Dont disregard other teachings, they have their pure teachings and misleading one also, even in christianity you can find truths. As I said, you cant blame, it’s so long ago, too many misintepretation.

As for non duality, my point of view is for the non-duality in samsara.
Fail to see good things can also leads to bad things.
Fail to see the beginnings and endings of all things.
Fail to see the more you know, the more you do not know.

If you’re stream enterer or above you’re already in the non-dualism.
The non-dualism bikkhu bodhi mention in the text is in the last stage distinction between atman  and anatta ( the one self and no-self). He might has his own understanding for these nondualism.  
But for me , I think no-self or anatta is also non-dualism as it is looking the emptiness inside  the self. Emptiness is also non-dualism, isn it?
But if you compare emptiness and existance then this is dualism .

Our best option is now is just we aim into experiencing the emptiness in what you call yourself, no matter it’s dualism or non-dualism. Might be just a play of words afterall

I also have a story to tell if people starting to comparing buddha teaching , theravada, mahayana, tantrayana, abhidhamma . I have an insight for the similiarity instead of the difference from these. Want me to tell the story? Its best not to, bcause it kinda long haha. Best is you people too do not have these contradictives , same teacher after all.




 I care because I am trying to figure how to practice Buddhism and I don't have a teacher. There could be differences because 1) some are wrong, or 2) because some have made improvements, or 3) because some are leading to something totally different from the others. I need to avoid the wrong teaching and know which are most helpful in practice, and what the result of the practice will be.

You know what stream entry is because you experineced it. But for me I have to read different explanations and experiences and from that figuire out how to practice. The practice itself is a hard job, figuring out who is giving the advice that will help me best is just as hard.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 10:58 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim, here are some answers to your questions from my personal practice perspective:

From a practical practice point of view I would like to know what practices people did that led them to stream entry.

There are many practice diaries on DhO and Awakenetwork. You should search through them. It would be the most efficient way to get some answers to this question.

Does a person's theoretical beliefs affect how he interprets his experiences? 

Yes, especially if the methods the person practices are from one or another specific tradition. We tend to get what we optimize for during our practice.

Is nonduality an objective fact of consciousness independent of the physical body, or is it an artifact of an altered brain state?

Meditation is not about objective states. If you approach your practice that way you will be dissatisfied. Mediation is about our subjective experiences and how mind generates them. As you get deeper and deeper into a practice you realize that everything is an artifact of mind. As odd as that will sound to your engineer's mindset, it's a condition of being human. Nothing we perceive can be experienced without being mediated by mind. I'd get into the non-duality part but I'm not sure it's really important. That's why I asked if you were interested in the question from a practical or a philosophical POV.

Does stream entry have any value to you after the body dies.

My opinion is no, nothing has any value to the person who dies. Some of the ancient Buddhist texts disagree, but you're an engineer living in the year 2018 - do you really want to practice based on what the ancient texts tell you, or based on what your living peers can tell you? You can choose one or the other, of course, or somewhere in between, but I would argue that this question has no practical practice value. JMHO.

If you adopt a practice paradigm that suits you, that you can have confidence in, and stick with it then you are more likely to get something than if you get lost in metaphysical issues and keep changing practice modes.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 11:01 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
BTW, Jim, I think it would be wise for you to try to find a sangha or a teacher that you can talk to. It would help you sort through a lot of your questions more efficiently and will very likely save you from going down a lot of unproductive paths. Tell someone what you are trying to do. If they aren't your cup of tea, find another person. This might be easier said than done depending on where you live, of course. But... it's really a more effective way to proceed based on what I'm reading from your questions here.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 12:07 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Chris Marti:
Jim, are you asking from a practical practice POV or from an intellectual curiosi ty/philosophical POV? 
  
 
I have a lot of questions. I'll dump a bunch of them here:  
        
From a practical practice point of view I would like to know what  practices people did that led them to stream entry. 

If anyone went from experiencing absorption (when the separation between observer and observed disapears) to stream entry I would like to understand that process, what practices did they do to make that happen. They are both nondual experiences, so what is he difference, is there a qualitative difference or is it just a more permanant extension of the same state?

Regarding the article I asked about: Does a person's theoretical beliefs affect how he interprets his experiences? Are people having the same experience and some say its nonduality and others are saying its not nonduality? If an authority I respect says awakening is not nonduality I might not spend time on practices that seem to produce nondual experiences, I would try something else.

Is nonduality an objective fact of consciousness independent of the physical body, or is it an artifict of an altered brain state? (A neuroscientists can tell you exactly which parts of the brain are responsible for producing the sense of identity. Turn these off through meditation or brain injury and you experience nonduality. http://serendipstudio.org/bb/neuro/neuro01/web3/Farrenkopf.html ) 

Related to the previous question: Does stream entry have any value to you after the body dies. I think you get different answers from ancient Buddhist beliefs and from modern experiencers of near-death  experiences and evidential mediums. According to my understanding of Buddhism, awakening ends the cycle of rebirth - it is the end  of all spiritual development. Awakening has huge consequences. On the other hand, no one ever came back from an NDE and said "everyone should drop everything and meditate all day so you can get enlightenment and stop reincarnating". NDErs and evidential mediums often say people should be kind to each other, not be materialistic, and love one another. The main purpose of the physical  incarnation is learning to love and loving. You will stop incarnating on the earth plane when you have learned the lessons that school pro  vides. Some say that when they were in the afterlife they had nondual experiences - so attaining a nondual consciousness while in the  body would seem to be not very important, not worth giving up all the other types of experiences you can have that are unique to the  physicl realm, because you get nonduality for free, effortlessly, when you are dead. And spiritual development never stops, when we are  done with physical incarnations, there are realms of pure emotion    and pure intellect and others, that we learn from experiencing. 
    
For me, this translates into the practical question: Should I  meditate to cultivate nondual experiences or should I meditate to culitivate the brahma viharas? According to my spiritual beliefs (based on modern empirical information) I should do the latter, but every time I read threads like this one, I feel drawn to the former  (nonduality) because it sounds enticing but also that it is a distraction from something more important (love).

I'm sure I have many more questions than I can remember right now but I think that is sufficient for one post.
Wow jim I like how you have an honest and straight view for where you are right now, undoubtly a spiritual beings.

I’d recommend Vipassana for stream entry, and noting for a glimpse into enlightment. 

My view is that oberver and observed hasnt dissapeared, it’s just when the observed throw back the observation to oberver you experience piti sukha ekagatta. 
Upon experiencing equanimous, you can see the non dualism, like ;  if nothing bad ever happen then nothing can be called as bad, so how can you not leaving the dualism mind.  

When the oberver experiencing the anatta, by then he can experience the non-seperation, this leads to enlightment.  
But first thing first. Experience ekagatta, strong observation , separate which is mind, feeling , body, the self. Investigate strongly everyday into the mind, how it work, from the beginning, where it ends, how it end. 

So from meditation;  losing identity, experiencing dualism, these are jhanas to cut the trunk of the fetters, next is you use wisdom to uproot them because you’ve seen the whole as one, the truth you saw will definitely change your perception of life. 
No this isnt the more permanent extension of the state, its just the life perception change when you see the truth   
 
And again, I strongly emphasize on these : what you know now, you are those. What you yet to know , never take a position to believe because this will stop your searching, nor disbelief because you’ll be ignorant and never find the truth. So even it is authority or little children , experience them, by then you know if it is dualism or non dualism. Im sorry to these truth, but you should take time to find out both, there is nothing call time saving if you want to unlock the truth unless it took a lifetime to unlock lol. 

I’d take the brain state. 
 
See, if an arahant went to NDE (which arahant is also experiencing these too lol) . He’d like you say : start meditate and stop incarnation. But how many would listen? These fetters bounding us, the desire they feed.    
The problem who.is going into the NDE . If a christian he would say he saw an angel, if buddhist he’d met buddha/avalokoitesvara. But even gods , devas fail to see the end of samsara.   

Loving should not be our purpose, our purpose should be to go beyond ourselves right now, how can we go beyond if there are so many fetters binding.  Im sorry to say this but even a dog know how to love, it doesnt need this amazing body with mind feeling body soul. Our love should be boundless, even a rock you can love as you’re experiencing it is the part of you too. 
 
For those experiencing the non-dual how can we know for sure, it is just like when you in a dream you forget who you are, you fly through the universes. Can you get enlightment by dreaming then? Thats why there you need wisdom to uproot your fetters, when you know how dualism distinguished itself from non-dualism. 
You can also check this one who already experience nondualism life afterwards to make sure. 

I’d rather to train and continue this life in nondualism perception then dualism which suffers. Because what if you dont get into those realms, do you want to take such chance? Dont you know life is full of uncertainty?  D

I’d say you pick the one which makes you uneasy, the one makes you intrigued, wanting to know, because it revoke your inner voice. Rather than the one which sounds easy to you, comfort you, as we know comfort zone isnt for spiritual seeker. If you want to look for guru also look for the one who turn you upside down than the one who comfort you.
 
Next questions please

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 12:12 PM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:

Next questions please

How can I tell who is dreaming? 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 12:30 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Does stream entry have any value to you after the body dies.

Yes very significant value.. have you ever experience astral projection or out of body experience? If yes, you’ll know that when you try to fly or go to somewhere, or illuminate the whole
picture you really need a deep concentration. 
So if you’re a stream enterer, no doubt, no fear upon death, graceful exits. Your state of your well controlled mind will prevent you to fall into low realms. Some say you might even can decide which womb to be born. But of course the best is to never be born again, to rejoin with the one, the ultimate.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 12:38 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Henry wijaya:

Next questions please

How can I tell who is dreaming? 

Yes it is mostly the same. Sometimes I can tell, for my dreams of course, like you cant turn light on or off, you cant look into mirrors , sometimes its just too obvious that it is a dream.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 12:54 PM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya  :
 
And again, I strongly emphasize on these : what you know now, you are those. What you yet to know , never take a position to believe because this will stop your searching, nor disbelief because you’ll be ignorant and never find the truth. So even it is authority or little children , experience them, by then you know if it is dualism or non dualism. Im sorry to these truth, but you should take time to find out both, there is nothing call time saving if you want to unlock the truth unless it took a lifetime to unlock lol. 

I’d take the brain state. 
 
See, if an arahant went to NDE (which arahant is also experiencing these too lol) . He’d like you say : start meditate and stop incarnation. But how many would listen? These fetters bounding us, the desire they feed.    
The problem who.is going into the NDE . If a christian he would say he saw an angel, if buddhist he’d met buddha/avalokoitesvara. But even gods , devas fail to see the end of samsara.   



RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 8:22 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:


Meditation is not about objective states. If you approach your practice that way you will be dissatisfied. Mediation is about our subjective experiences and how mind generates them. As you get deeper and deeper into a practice you realize that everything is an artifact of mind. As odd as that will sound to your engineer's mindset, it's a condition of being human. Nothing we perceive can be experienced without being mediated by mind. I'd get into the non-duality part but I'm not sure it's really important. That's why I asked if you were interested in the question from a practical or a philosophical POV.
"As you get deeper and deeper into a practice you realize that everything is an artifact of mind."

Is there anything more you can say about this? Is the realization of this what leads ot stream enty because you understand all is illusion? Self is an illusion? You are no longer fooled by the illusion?

How does meditation lead to this realization? You watch the rising and falling away of mental phenomena and eventually you get it?

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 9:00 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Henry wijaya  :
 
And again, I strongly emphasize on these : what you know now, you are those. What you yet to know , never take a position to believe because this will stop your searching, nor disbelief because you’ll be ignorant and never find the truth. So even it is authority or little children , experience them, by then you know if it is dualism or non dualism. Im sorry to these truth, but you should take time to find out both, there is nothing call time saving if you want to unlock the truth unless it took a lifetime to unlock lol. 

I’d take the brain state. 
 
See, if an arahant went to NDE (which arahant is also experiencing these too lol) . He’d like you say : start meditate and stop incarnation. But how many would listen? These fetters bounding us, the desire they feed.    
The problem who.is going into the NDE . If a christian he would say he saw an angel, if buddhist he’d met buddha/avalokoitesvara. But even gods , devas fail to see the end of samsara.   


The idea that people who have NDEs only experience what they expect does not hold up under an examination of the actual evidence, ie. reports by people who have NDE's. You only hear it from people who have not investigated the phenomenon. When you look at actual data you find many examples where people came back from an NDE and reported their experiences were not what they would have expected. In one case an atheist (Howard Strom) became a Christian minister because of his experience. In another case a Christian was told that how you treat people is most important and what you believe about religion is not very important - which contradicts an important tenet of Christianity that faith is paramount. There are many other examples where people did not experience what they would have expected. 

Do you know of an actual case of an arahant who had an NDE and said what you think he would say? Because you wrote "What you yet to know , never take a position to believe because this will stop your searching, nor disbelief because you’ll be ignorant and never find the truth."

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/15/18 11:04 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Jim Smit h:
 Hen ry wijaya   :
  
And again, I  strongly empha size on these :   what  you k now   now, you are  those. What you yet to know , never take a  positi on to believe because this will stop your searching, nor disbelief because you’ll be ignorant and never find the truth. So even it is authority or little children , experience them, by then you know if it is dualism or non dualism. Im sorry to these truth, but you should take time to find  out both, there is nothing call time saving if you want to unlock the truth unless it took a lifetime to unlock lol.  
 
I’d take the brain state.  
 
See, if an ara hant went to NDE (which  arahant is also  experiencing  these too lol) . He’d like you  say : start meditate and stop incarnation. But  how many would listen? These fetters bounding us, the desire they feed.    
The problem who.is going into  the NDE . If a christian he would say he saw an angel, if buddhist he’d met buddha/avalokoitesvara. But even gods , devas fail to see the end of samsara.   
 

The idea that people who have NDEs only experience what they expect does not hold up under an examination of the actual evidence ,  ie. reports by people who have NDE's. You only hear it from people who have not investigated the phenomenon. When you look at actual data you find many examples where people came back from an NDE and reported their experiences were not what they would have expected. In one case an atheist (Howard Strom) became a Christian minister because of his experience. In another case a Christian was told that how you treat people is most important and what you  believe about religion is not very important - which contradicts an important tenet of Christianity that faith is paramount. There are many  other examples where people did not experience what they would have expected.  
 
Do you know of an actual case of an arahant who had an NDE and  said what you think he would say? Because you wrote "What you yet to know , never take a position to believe because this will stop your searching, nor disbelief because you’ll be ignorant and never find the truth." 
 
See to add more to your NDE data, there’s an uncle of my co-worker here who experience NDR, he was brought to hospital for 5 days unconscious, then he just suddenly came back and says I’m ok now, please bring me home. He said he went so far far away, no man’s land, then he’s brought to hell, there’s the hell gatekeeper (the bull head demon in our local temples )  who cant find his name on the death list, then he thrown back to his body. He go to temples a lot nowadays and doing lots of good deeds too. He didnt expect these too. 

Thats why I said when they are out of the body, what they thought is their world. You never see what things really are without view of non-dualism. So this whole NDE report of course depends on the one who experience.
  
Their perspective shifted because they now see that they are not the body they have now. 
Stream enterer of course in way beyond,  the mind they already go beyond. The third fetter destroyed, they wont see no angel or hell keeper for sure. They can even control where they want to go. 

Faith too should go beyond just a man sitting up there. Thats why we have 5th jhana  for unlimited space, we realize how small we are, not even a size of  tiny dust or atom in the universe . How can your faith not growing in front of this undescribeable large creation by the creator.  
Mostly NDE experienced people starting to see the first fetter , identity , is just an illusion and hold no longer to it. But not yet the second or the third fetter, they dont even realize. 

Then we have 6th jhana unlimited consciousness, how can we still pick who to love and not, what to love and not, who and what belong to who and what, when you enters this unlimited consciousness, even in 31realms you just a mr nobody, how can you not grow your metta. 

What I mean by arahant experiencing NDE is because when you going for full enlightment ,its full total surrender , emptiness you bring into realization of what you call you, its not even near death experience, its already the death experience itself, the death of the self ,  from the creation and creator you bcome one. 
 
These are my point of views , as my perception shifted upon experiencing things. You asked me last year, im just a person indulge in money, sexual desire addict, etc.

For arahant books I like Ajahn Chah , Maha Boowa . 

 And again these things not yet in your experience is better to stay “I dont know”. Dont believe nor disbelief. Find out and experience is your best guru 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 5:00 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:

If I have to recommend, I’d recommend that youtube with title “samadhi”. 

I looked on youtube and there are many videos with "samadhi" in the title. I looked above in this thread and didn't see any links to videos with that title.  Could you provide more information or a link so I can find the video you are referring to.

Thanks

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 5:16 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:
Jim Smith:
Jim Smit h:
 Hen ry wijaya   :
  
And again, I  strongly empha size on these :   what  you k now   now, you are  those. What you yet to know , never take a  positi on to believe because this will stop your searching, nor disbelief because you’ll be ignorant and never find the truth. So even it is authority or little children , experience them, by then you know if it is dualism or non dualism. Im sorry to these truth, but you should take time to find  out both, there is nothing call time saving if you want to unlock the truth unless it took a lifetime to unlock lol.  
 
I’d take the brain state.  
 
See, if an ara hant went to NDE (which  arahant is also  experiencing  these too lol) . He’d like you  say : start meditate and stop incarnation. But  how many would listen? These fetters bounding us, the desire they feed.    
The problem who.is going into  the NDE . If a christian he would say he saw an angel, if buddhist he’d met buddha/avalokoitesvara. But even gods , devas fail to see the end of samsara.   
 

The idea that people who have NDEs only experience what they expect does not hold up under an examination of the actual evidence ,  ie. reports by people who have NDE's. You only hear it from people who have not investigated the phenomenon. When you look at actual data you find many examples where people came back from an NDE and reported their experiences were not what they would have expected. In one case an atheist (Howard Strom) became a Christian minister because of his experience. In another case a Christian was told that how you treat people is most important and what you  believe about religion is not very important - which contradicts an important tenet of Christianity that faith is paramount. There are many  other examples where people did not experience what they would have expected.  
 
Do you know of an actual case of an arahant who had an NDE and  said what you think he would say? Because you wrote "What you yet to know , never take a position to believe because this will stop your searching, nor disbelief because you’ll be ignorant and never find the truth." 
 
See to add more to your NDE data, there’s an uncle of my co-worker here who experience NDR, he was brought to hospital for 5 days unconscious, then he just suddenly came back and says I’m ok now, please bring me home. He said he went so far far away, no man’s land, then he’s brought to hell, there’s the hell gatekeeper (the bull head demon in our local temples )  who cant find his name on the death list, then he thrown back to his body. He go to temples a lot nowadays and doing lots of good deeds too. He didnt expect these too. 

Thats why I said when they are out of the body, what they thought is their world. You never see what things really are without view of non-dualism. So this whole NDE report of course depends on the one who experience.
  
Their perspective shifted because they now see that they are not the body they have now. 
Stream enterer of course in way beyond,  the mind they already go beyond. The third fetter destroyed, they wont see no angel or hell keeper for sure. They can even control where they want to go. 

Henry, I don't understand how you know what happens when a person has an NDE. Have you had one?

You wrote (below) "And again these things not yet in your experience is better to stay “I dont know”. Dont believe nor disbelief. Find out and experience is your best guru"

Aren't you violating your own advice by speaking as if you know things that you are only assuming?  Is an NDE in your experience?



Faith too should go beyond just a man sitting up there. Thats why we have 5th jhana  for unlimited space, we realize how small we are, not even a size of  tiny dust or atom in the universe . How can your faith not growing in front of this undescribeable large creation by the creator.  
Mostly NDE experienced people starting to see the first fetter , identity , is just an illusion and hold no longer to it. But not yet the second or the third fetter, they dont even realize. 

Then we have 6th jhana unlimited consciousness, how can we still pick who to love and not, what to love and not, who and what belong to who and what, when you enters this unlimited consciousness, even in 31realms you just a mr nobody, how can you not grow your metta. 

What I mean by arahant experiencing NDE is because when you going for full enlightment ,its full total surrender , emptiness you bring into realization of what you call you, its not even near death experience, its already the death experience itself, the death of the self ,  from the creation and creator you bcome one. 
 
These are my point of views , as my perception shifted upon experiencing things. You asked me last year, im just a person indulge in money, sexual desire addict, etc.

For arahant books I like Ajahn Chah , Maha Boowa . 

 And again these things not yet in your experience is better to stay “I dont know”. Dont believe nor disbelief. Find out and experience is your best guru 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 5:28 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:

These are my point of views , as my perception shifted upon experiencing things. You asked me last year, im just a person indulge in money, sexual desire addict, etc.
 


What happened that led you to attain stream-entry?

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 6:28 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Sounds like we agree! :-D 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 6:33 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
[quote=]
For me, this translates into the practical question: Should I meditate to cultivate nondual experiences or should I meditate to culitivate the brahma viharas? Nonduality and love, in the thinking/experience of certain teachers, are actually one in the same.
Krishnamurti's Journal is a great example of this, I think.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/355255.Krishnamurti_s_Journal

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 6:46 AM as a reply to Tashi Tharpa.
Tashi Tharpa:

For me, this translates into the practical question: Should I meditate to cultivate nondual experiences or should I meditate to culitivate the brahma viharas? 


Nonduality and love, in the thinking/experience of certain teachers, are actually one in the same.
Krishnamurti's Journal is a great example of this, I think.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/355255.Krishnamurti_s_Journal

Like 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 7:13 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Is there anything more you can say about this? Is the realization of this what leads ot stream enty because you understand all is illusion? Self is an illusion? You are no longer fooled by the illusion?

I didn't say all is an illusion. I didn't say anything was an illusion. There is more nuance to the realization, and I would argue that you should practice and find out. You have to do that and see this stuff for yourself. No amount of information you obtain from others will do the trick.

How does meditation lead to this realization? You watch the rising and falling away of mental phenomena and eventually you get it?

Yes, that's pretty much how it works.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 8:26 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:


I didn't say all is an illusion. I didn't say anything was an illusion.


Okay I guess I misunderstood what you meant when you wrote:

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/8713569?_19_delta=20&_19_keywords=&_19_advancedSearch=false&_19_andOperator=true&_19_resetCur=false&_19_cur=2#_19_message_8807512

Meditation is not about objective states. If you approach your practice that way you will be dissatisfied. Mediation is about our subjective experiences and how mind generates them. As you get deeper and deeper into a practice you realize that everything is an artifact of mind.


Thanks

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 8:26 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
[quote=]
Henry, I don't understand how you know what happens when a person has an NDE. Have you had one? 


You wrote (below) "And again these things not yet in your experience is better to stay “I dont know”. Dont believe nor disbelief. Find out and experience is your best guru" 

Aren't you violating your own advice by speaking as if you know things that you are only assuming?  Is an NDE in your experience? 
[quote=] 
  
I’m sorry if I mislead you, but what I experienced is called out of body experience, yes I made assumption based on my exp but I dont like to tell about these things too, it is mostly useless, next thing you might ask me where I went when out of body , then you might even start seeing things in the dark, then it leads to distraction for your meditation. 
 
Thats why I dont usually tell these things, if you already over these exp thats fine, but even that already far from our topic in this thread lol.


As in arahat also my perception, Im still open for any changes of perception, later I’ll experience them to find out, for now I dont believe nor disbelief too. And I’ll let you know when I find out too.


RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 8:56 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:

what I experienced is called out of body experience, yes I made assumption based on my exp but I dont like to tell about these things too, it is mostly useless,
Okay thanks for explaining. In fact, for the most part, I agree with you about OBE's.  

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newdualism.org%2Fnde-papers%2FTart%2FTart-Journal%2520of%2520Near-Death%2520Studies_1998-17-73-99.pdf

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 10:22 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Henry wijaya :

These are my point of views , as my perception shifted upon experiencing things. You asked me last year, im just a person  indulge in money, sexual desire addict, etc. 
  
   

What happened that led you to attain stream-entry?
Lol it will just be another story for you. But ok , at first I dont even realize im doing vipassana, I thought meditation is about watching breath. I start because this year supposed to be a year for me to make most money, everything is great, my goal I set from boyhood has been reached, as im not planning to be a filthy rich person either. But i felt something not right, this doesnt work, im still a mess as a person, here I started to look in google for enlightment.
Many questions about life rises. I made conclusion for them , now they all coming back looking for the truth.

I try what those people said in reddit , happiness is an emotion, how can we be angry but at the same time cannot be happy, happiness is far away, “after you have this you’ll be happy”, but anger, even a small thing can set it off. I meditate into it, going through monkey mind, fell asleep, wake up again, look again. I dont even know bout jhanas that time.
 
After I started experiencing happiness, Im like an meditation geek, even before taking a bath I’d sit on bathroom floor for a while to bring out happiness. After a week I decide to go for the peak, then there it is, all bliss afterwards, I started reading books , found the explanations, then I continue with maha boowa ‘s arahantship , I read and practice. Mostly these experiences like those who posted here too, for me its jhanas effect, and I start practising wisdom, watching mind, feeling, body, what is their nature, which is not me.
 
Thats why I said dont mistaken jhanas for enlightment, as in ajahn brahm books also said, jhanas is like a general holding you head and pointing knife to your neck, then you’ready to hear the wisdom. 

Stay simple and straight to yourself, what you know and dont know, you dont have to believe anything or disbelief anything, find out and experience, that will be your greatest guru.


This is the link : 

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCmzsYSXn3zdCsLS063oCt8w

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 10:23 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
I guess I misunderstood what you meant when you wrote:

Meditation is not about objective states. If you approach your practice that way you will be dissatisfied. Mediation is about our subjective experiences and how mind generates them. As you get deeper and deeper into a practice you realize that everything is an artifact of mind.

Jim, subjective experiences are not illusions and I didn't mean to mislead you. The mind, your mind, my mind, everyone's mind, is the arbiter of everything you perceive. You can never really be in contact with a purely external stimulus. Every experience you have has to come through your senses and then be processed by your mind. That, simply put, is what meditation focuses on. How are the experiences we all have "generated" by the mind?



RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/16/18 12:30 PM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:
Noah D:
No Self view = complete perceptual nonduality in waking hours 
No doubt = complete confidence that one can operate skillfully in any situation
No attachment to rules = complete fluidity & adaptability of behavior & attitude to be happy in  life 



I see you’ve reached such a state.. what a wonderful life isn’t it!

Well when you’ve losen up ur identity then you can see things clear with nonduality.. those are the one of the effects from losing the first fetter.

Still there are areas not in our learnings, there’ll still be mistakes in life but we admit and learn through easily.

When unconditional happines in our hand yes we choose to be happy instead of unhappy , but this fetter is about losing fear actually.

Very nice point of viewNoah

I actually have not acheived such a state.  When I mention this echelon of conditioning/repatterning, I'm referencing something that would be quite rare - hard to acheive for layfolk & maybe a fraction of a percent of dedicated practitioners attaining.

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/17/18 2:50 AM as a reply to Noah D.
Noah D:
Henry wijaya :
Noah D  :
No Self view = complete perceptual nonduality in waking hours  
No doubt =  complete confidence that one can operate skillfully in any situation
No attachment to rules = complete fluidity & adaptability of behavior & attitude to be happy in  life 



I see you’ve reached such a state.. what a wonderful life isn’t it!

Well when you’ve losen up ur identity then you can see things clear with nonduality.. those are the one of the effects from losing the first fetter.

Still there are areas not in our learnings, there’ll still be mistakes in life but we admit and learn through easily. 
  
When unconditional happines in our hand yes we choose to be happy instead of unhappy , but this fetter is about losing fear actually.

Very nice point of viewNoah
 
I actually have not acheived such a state.  When I mention this echelon of conditioning/repatterning, I'm referencing something that would be quite rare - hard to acheive for layfolk & maybe a fraction of a percent of dedicated practitioners attaining.  

Oh well .. Im sorry I thought it was coming from you.  

A good example would be a man living in a wide open house and a closed house . 
Wide open house would be entered by anyone, good or bad, intruders, wise man etc. The master would be more busy than the closed one. 
Closed house would be free from these so the master can train himself undisturbed. 

But after the masters trained themselves skillfully.
Wide open house would welcome anyone , but the whoever set foot must act according tonhouse rules.
Closed house would stay the same, even after enlightment he’ll be more difficult to identify his attainment than the wide open house. 
So there’s plus and minus. 

I agree it’s rare for stream enterer nowadays, but under great gurus who’s great at identifying people stages , there’ll be lots come out enlightmented from there. 

Thats why also I started this thread, what if theres lots of people who thought they achieved but then time passed by and the truth conceals, not counting on those who they try to teach. 
Attainment for yourself and teaching is really a different skill. Thats why great gurus mostly are old, those years they spent on learning how to teach. 

Mostly everybody in this forum know that life is illusion, but how many can identify the source and brought into realization. So many people reincarnation for eons of lives, there you sit for 10days and you attained, yes jhanas you attained for sure, but can you bring into realization.
 
Try not meditate and see how you back to old patterns. If you’re stream enterer , you should realize that mind creating illusions, not yet the feeling , body. If you really realize this,  try to take away your mind created illusion , see how it goes then.
 
If my examples too hard , then try with some identity or belonging that has no feeling attached. Like today you’re robbed,  but you just smile. Try face your biggest fear, fear is also illusion created by mind, isn’it?
 Life will always teach you a lesson, especially layfolk, so we can check  if you bring you fruition into realization through wisdom practice. Dont wait for answers from the maggots, it’ll be too late.
 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/17/18 8:40 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry:

Try not meditate and see how you back to old patterns. If you’re stream enterer , you should realize that mind creating illusions, not yet the feeling , body. If you really realize this,  try to take away your mind created illusion , see how it goes then.

So, when I use this definition of SE

No Self view = complete perceptual nonduality in waking hours  
No doubt =  complete confidence that one can operate skillfully in any situation
No attachment to rules = complete fluidity & adaptability of behavior & attitude to be happy in  life 
*Didnt mean to put this part in quotes* I'm talking about a level where that test would have already been passed by multiple, permanent transformations of mind & body preceding stream entry.  At this stage, mind-body patterns would clearly/decisively no longer manifests those illusions/old patterns at a coarse/recognizable level of mind (i.e. no more unskillful behavior, no more obvious/common unskillful impulse to behavior - anything that can be identified as a thought or emotion in most of life - obviously with exceptions in extreme situations).  Then at the sakadagami, they would no longer manifest them at a subtle levelf of mind (i.e. even in the most triggering situations, only the smallest wavelet of reactivity can be recognized).  Then at anagami, they would no longer manifest them, even at a very subtle level of mind (i.e. in all situations, no waves at all).  

(I've defined my usage of "unskillful" & "skillful" at length elsewhere on the DhO, so I won't go into it here - for all you folks who get triggered by 10 fetter standards emoticon )

Also - this result is likely something someone would have to know about in advance & purposely optimize for, for decades after initial 'awakening.'  I can think of other, equally valid emotional/cognitive/behavioral models of how an exemplar enlightened person might look/perform, such as:
-emphasizing the deep love, passion, creativity, sexuality, self expression freedom aspect of the awakened heart
-emphasizing the deep love, service, efficiency, bodhisattva, political/social action, performance-capacity aspect of the awakened heart

Thus - this model is only the nonreactivity optimization potential for awakeneing.  And yes, without purposeful optimization, deep practitioners will tend to get varying degrees of all of these results.

However, this version is much a much more encouraging model & I'd recommend people use it as an attainable bar:
1- completion of 1 cycle of insight 

2- “Fetter lite” 
——a peripheral intuitive sense that the self is an illusion , which can be accessed whenever one turns to it 
——confidence that the dharma will eventually work to transform ones suffering 
——-recognition that the dharma is about actual practice , rather than magical rituals 

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/17/18 1:16 PM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:


 but when nobody around, you’re just a gentle whisper of wind blowing in summer breeze. 

Henry,

Is being "just a gentle whisper of wind blowing in summer breeze" like this:

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/7146949?_19_delta=20&_19_keywords=&_19_advancedSearch=false&_19_andOperator=true&_19_resetCur=false&_19_cur=3#_19_message_8831413
Phyo Arkar:
Cessation is bodily experience of non_self 
it have to be explained in whole sutta but only  bodily experience of it will tell you clearly what it is. i will try to explain my best as i experienced but you have to experience it directly. 

as human we have
 hear touch sight smell taste mind
we consider that combination as self
we cling to it as self we desire to pursue better taste, better sight, better smell, etc
and we thought it was pleasure.But then if we can't get those, we suffer. those cant be last, those cant be satisfying, they are not always under our control. 

the answer is total ceasing of those
the moment before ceasing :
i will tell you my experience of longest ceasing 
first: hearing doesn't make sense anymore 
then breathing disappears
and then only mind left
after noting the last remaining mind
its like fallen into a  black hole
its like a total void in time and space
then when i am back  i know something happened, but dunno what it is
when i tried to think back what happened, i cease to exist for a moment. 
then after a few noting  alarm rang, 1hr is up. 
all i remember is i sited for 10 mins but already 1 hour is up. and then i realized i was ceased to exist for 50 minutes. 
it waa so liberating and peaceful that there is no I for 50 minutes.

it is glimpse of nibanna, total liberation from 5 senses doors, desire, ego, self. i feel like a new person fill with joy and peace



Thanks

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/17/18 4:23 PM as a reply to Noah D.
Noah D:
Henry: 

Try not meditate and see how you back to old patterns. If you’re stream enterer , you should realize that mind creating illusions, not yet the feeling , body. If you really realize this,  try to take away your mind created illusion , see how it goes then. 
 
So, when I use this definition of SE

No Self view = complete perceptual nonduality in waking hours  
No doubt =  complete confidence that one can operate skillfully in any situation
No attachment to rules = complete fluidity & adaptability of behavior & attitude to be happy in  life 
*Didnt mean to put this part in quotes* I'm talking about a level where that test would have already been passed by multiple, permanent transformations of mind & body preceding stream entry.  At this stage, mind-body patterns would clearly/decisively no longer manifests those illusions/old patterns at a coarse/recognizable level of mind (i.e. no more unskillful behavior, no more obvious/common unskillful impulse to behavior - anything that can be identified as a thought or emotion in most of life - obviously with exceptions in extreme situations).  Then at the  sakadagami, they would no longer manifest them at a subtle levelf of mind (i.e. even in the most triggering situations, only the smallest wavelet of reactivity can be recognized).  Then at anagami, they would no longer manifest them, even at a very subtle level of mind (i.e. in all situations, no waves at all).  

(I've defined my usage of "unskillful" & "skillful" at length elsewhere on the DhO, so I won't go into it here - for all you folks who get triggered by 10 fetter standards emoticon )
 
Also - this result is likely something someone would have to know about in advance & purposely optimize for, for decades after initial 'awakening.'  I can think of other, equally valid emotional/cognitive/behavioral models of how an exemplar enlightened person might look/perform, such as: 
-emphasizing the deep love, passion, creativity, sexuality, self expression freedom aspect of the awakened heart
-emphasizing the deep love, service, efficiency, bodhisattva, political/social action, performance-capacity aspect of the awakened heart

Thus - this model is only the nonreactivity optimization potential for awakeneing.  And yes, without purposeful optimization, deep practitioners will tend to get varying degrees of all of these results.

However, this version is much a much more encouraging model & I'd recommend people use it as an attainable bar:
1- completion of 1 cycle of insight 

2- “Fetter lite” 
——a peripheral intuitive sense that the self is an illusion , which can be accessed whenever one turns to it 
——confidence that the dharma will eventually work to transform ones suffering 
——-recognition that the dharma is about actual practice , rather than magical rituals  
I see now, your skilfulll is regarding to handling dukhas, I thought in general. Do you know where I can read further bout the completion of 1 cycle of insight?

RE: Check If You’re A Stream Enterer
Answer
7/17/18 4:36 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Henry wijaya:


 but when nobody around, you’re just a gentle whisper of wind blowing in summer breeze. 
 
Henry, 

Is being "just a gentle whisper of wind blowing in summer breeze" like this:

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/7146949?_19_delta=20&_19_keywords=&_19_advancedSearch=false&_19_andOperator=true&_19_resetCur=false&_19_cur=3#_19_message_8831413
Phyo Arkar:
Cessation is bodily experience of non_self 
it have to be explained in whole sutta but only  bodily experience of it will tell you clearly what it is. i will try to explain my best as i experienced but you have to experience it directly. 

as human we have
 hear touch sight smell taste mind
we consider that combination as self
we cling to it as self we desire to pursue better taste, better sight, better smell, etc
and we thought it was pleasure.But then if we can't get those, we suffer. those cant be last, those cant be satisfying, they are not always under our control. 

the answer is total ceasing of those
the moment before ceasing :
i will tell you my experience of longest ceasing 
first: hearing doesn't make sense anymore 
then breathing disappears
and then only mind left
after noting the last remaining mind
its like fallen into a  black hole
its like a total void in time and space
then when i am back  i know something happened, but dunno what it is
when i tried to think back what happened, i cease to exist for a moment. 
then after a few noting  alarm rang, 1hr is up.  
all i remember is i sited for 10 mins but already 1 hour is up. and then i realized i was ceased to exist for 50 minutes.  
it waa so liberating and peaceful that there is no I for 50 minutes.

it is glimpse of nibanna, total liberation from 5 senses doors, desire, ego, self. i feel like a new person fill with joy and peace



Thanks

Yes I had this one too.. And then I go for collecting wisdom /dhamma excessively , everything makes sense afterwards. This one too : “Everything you experience in this world, you only experienced them inside your soul” . We never really live a life if we never understand this.

Then I investigate everything inside me, how my mind work, my feeling, my body. Everything that excessive has to go.