Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Kenneth Folk 3/22/09 4:10 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Antonio Ramírez 3/22/09 4:33 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Kenneth Folk 3/22/09 5:52 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Antonio Ramírez 3/22/09 6:18 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Kenneth Folk 3/22/09 6:27 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Wet Paint 3/22/09 6:27 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Kenneth Folk 3/22/09 6:30 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Wet Paint 3/22/09 6:36 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Kenneth Folk 3/22/09 6:38 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Jackson Wilshire 3/22/09 7:31 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO triple think 3/22/09 8:36 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO tarin greco 3/22/09 9:41 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Nathan I S 3/23/09 4:25 AM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Chuck Kasmire 3/23/09 6:19 AM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Antonio Ramírez 3/23/09 7:20 AM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Kenneth Folk 3/23/09 8:04 AM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Nikolai Stephen Halay 3/23/09 11:25 AM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Nikolai Stephen Halay 3/23/09 11:29 AM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO beta wave 3/23/09 11:59 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Eric Calhoun 3/24/09 9:07 AM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Antonio Ramírez 3/24/09 4:53 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Kenneth Folk 3/24/09 5:03 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Daniel M. Ingram 3/25/09 6:27 PM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO Julius P0pp 3/27/09 1:28 AM
RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO lena lozano 4/11/09 6:23 AM
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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 4:10 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 4:10 PM

Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Forum: Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

This is a place for responses to "Jewish Mysticism and the DhO."
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Antonio Ramírez, modified 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 4:33 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 4:33 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 55 Join Date: 9/9/09 Recent Posts
Ahem. Born and raised Mexican here emoticon

Just sayin'
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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 5:52 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 5:52 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
:-))

Mucho gusto de conocerlo, señor.

Me gustaría hablar contigo acerca de esto tema. ¿Crees que deberíamos ser más inclusivos con respecto a los latinos?

(Pleased to meet you sir. I'd like to speak with you about this. Do you think we should be more inclusive with respect to Latinos?)

Please feel free to correct my Spanish,

Kenneth
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Antonio Ramírez, modified 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 6:18 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 6:18 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 55 Join Date: 9/9/09 Recent Posts
The pleasure is mine! And your Spanish is great (if you want me to nitpick, it's "este tema" emoticon

One of the thoughts I've had is: MCTB *MUST* be translated into Spanish. If and when I get somewhat advanced in this practice, I'd love to have the opportunity to translate it in a way that preserves both the tone and the substance. They're both, I think, extremely important for the effect it had on me. Put a Spanish version of MCTB out there, and they will come.
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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 6:27 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 6:27 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
I LOVE this idea! Maybe we could work together to make it happen?
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Wet Paint, modified 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 6:27 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 6:27 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: garyrh


I think a poll on how we got here will reveal a lot about the members (maybe not why there are Mexicansemoticon .
Like who read MCTB (or part of) first?
How did members come across the site?
Why do you hang around, what do you find interesting?
How often do you visit (not all visits would sign in).

The community would come up with some excellent polls.
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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 6:30 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 6:30 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Beautiful, Gary. Would you consider being the point man on the poll?
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Wet Paint, modified 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 6:36 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 6:36 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: garyrh

I am your (point) man!
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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 6:38 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 6:38 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Awesome. Run with it.
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 7:31 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 7:31 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 97 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
@kennethfolk: "n the first place, why do we use so much Theravada Buddhist language? Is it really the best language to use? We could discuss this as a community. Maybe we’ll decide that it is the best language to use, or at least as good as any. If so, let’s provide a section on basic Pali word definitions so that newcomers can get up to speed on the vocabulary."

I think a section of basic Pali definitions is a great idea, but why not add definitions from other languages and traditions as well? It would take a while to compile it all, but it could be worth it.

From what I understand, the new site will incorporate both a wiki and a discussion forum. Being able to link from discussion posts directly to wiki pages will solve part of the problem, as it will be easier for newcomers to get a handle on the basic concepts. It may also be nice to have a sort of "Glossary of Common Terms" page, though that might prove to be superfluous if the wiki provides the same function.

One drawback of the Theravada language (or any spiritual language for that matter) is that some of it sounds weirdo spiritual to people who aren't familiar with it. For example, I had a discussion with my wife the other night about the Three Doors from which one may enter/exit cessation. I explained one of my experiences with the dukkha (suffering) door, and afterwards she asked me, "Do I need to be worried about you?" We had a good laugh about it. It made me realize that the language isn't as accessible to some as it is to others. Sometimes using the traditional language is the best choice, which is why a good wiki page is going to be a great improvement to the DhO. But, we should also commit to using plain English (or Spanish, or whatever) whenever possible, which I feel is a good way to be inclusive without watering down the message.
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triple think, modified 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 8:36 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 8:36 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
In response to the page and posts. Cool, grooves with me entirely. See! Another wave model.
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tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 9:41 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/22/09 9:41 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
f ethnic diversity. i dont think there's anything here that alienates people from various ethnic backgrounds. culturally speaking, fundamentalist buddhists are gonna be alienated but that's ok cos what do you expect when we, say, talk openly about attainment and laugh at traditional views of attainment, for example, the flaccid arahant model of enlightenment? no way around that alienation and im all gevorah! on that front.

also, the site is in english and that alienates non-english native speakers but there is always google translate for anyone who cares enough.

the topic of women is a matter i've swung around on, from thinking that it would be good to try to include em more, to thinking that attempting to include them would be patronising meddling, to thinking that the result would be a fractured community... i am not by default always down with the view that everything should be rigidly egalitarian across gender lines, and think gautama might have had really good reasons for not wanting to ordain chicks that went beyond the strictures of his culture, reasons that may have their equivalents here today. without going into that though, let me move along and say here's where i'm at now: i think the best thing with regard to including women on this site would be for one or two highly accomplished female practitioners to step up and make it happen how they see fit (with, of course, the permission of the male patriarchs that actually run this place, ha!). 'female' because they will have a better idea of how to tailor and format discussion to meet the needs of female mindsets than guys will, and 'highly accomplished' because the discussion should remain rooted in practice, as is the goal here, as stated on line 1 on page 1, which i am resolute should continue to be the most important standard:

'The Dharma Overground is a resource for the support of hardcore meditation practice.'
Nathan I S, modified 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 4:25 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 4:25 AM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/26/09 Recent Posts
Yeah, I'm all for Geburah and all... hold on, what does "Gevurah" mean? The site needs a glossary. I actually think the appendices of U Pandita's "In This Very Life" are the best parts.

Myself and a few others here clearly also know some of the QBLH and would lose a lot of you here. Likewise it's worth noting that across Buddhist traditions the language isn't the same. E.g., Sanskrit vs. Pali. Even then, some people might not be instructed in the same teachings--there's little talk of the Four Elements, Five Aggregates, Parts of the Body, Reflection on Death etc. here and those are all in my toolbox.
Chuck Kasmire, modified 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 6:19 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 6:19 AM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 559 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Regarding a potential site layout (conceptually):
Imagine a roof supported by a circle of pillars where each pillar is made of a different material (say wood, metal, stone, etc). Each pillar has its own shape and characteristics that are the result of and point to its structural integrity. The roof at the top we might define as 'The View' (as set forth by Hokai) that points to the experience itself. [In this sense, each tradition would have its own area for discussion, terminology, etc].

The reason for this is that it would be a mistake to take the roundness of the metal pillar and try to say that that has the same function and role as the roundness of a stone pillar. A simple resemblance is not sufficient. From the outside all we can say is that each pillar sits on the ground and supports 'The View'. [This not only points to the difficulty of terminology but also trying to use the conceptual framework in which any one tradition is set and trying to place another tradition within it].

The middle ground that the pillars define as a group creates a meeting space - protected/defined by 'The View'. But in order to meet there effectively, we must learn to appreciate the other pillars as they are. Though not easy to do, seems that it could be developed through mindfulness, effort, and investigation.

Whatever we decide to do, I don't feel it needs to be engineered in any great detail beforehand. We don't need to create a formal garden so much as layout a permaculture landscape where we can give it the space to develop naturally. To paraphrase postreptillian: If we provide the space and opportunity, others will join in.

Short of some sort of partitioning, I think to try to include other traditions would quickly become a mess.

A glossary is badly needed.

-Chuck
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Antonio Ramírez, modified 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 7:20 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 7:20 AM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 55 Join Date: 9/9/09 Recent Posts
I want to say yes! However, I feel like I should at the very least have stream entry before trying to work on a translation. Obviously, working together is a possibility to get around that problem since you seem to have great Spanish and could watch out for drifts in meaning that I may introduce. I think I would personally find it a lot of fun to work with you, I'd probably learn a lot (and your magickal arahant powers would obviously rub off on me emoticon). So. Not a yes just quite now, let me think about it a bit and make sure I can commit the time.
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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 8:04 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 8:04 AM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Postreptilian, maybe we could start small and see what happens. We could work together to translate one little thing, for example Daniel's "Imagine" thread on the home page. As Mary Poppins said, "Well begun is half done."

Meanwhile, do you know of any HispanoBuddhist or other Spanish language enlightenment links that could help me and anyone else who is interested get up to speed on the relevant language? If so, will you post them on the Websites of Value page under a Spanish Language subheading? (Everybody, it would be great to have lists of relevant websites in all languages.) I think this could be a fun project, and we don't have to make a big time commitment; we could just do what feels comfortable and see how far we get.
Nikolai Stephen Halay, modified 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 11:25 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 11:25 AM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 7 Join Date: 9/2/09 Recent Posts
Oh my goodness that would be a bloody awesome idea. I currently live in Chile, South America and although the Dhamma following is small there still are hardcore practicioners and it would make it so much easier to explain my Dark Knight torment to my fiance as her English isnt up to speed.

This place has been the biggest blessing for my practise in years. Years I tells ya!
Nikolai Stephen Halay, modified 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 11:29 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 11:29 AM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 7 Join Date: 9/2/09 Recent Posts
I meant my dark night torment. I just saw Batman. Heheh
beta wave, modified 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 11:59 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/23/09 11:59 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 5 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
In terms of organizing the site, I see three categories of conversation:

1) well established maps/techniques/views
2) practical conversations around applying those teachings to one's practice
3) speculative conversations that further refine maps/techniques/views

At this point, there is so much content on the site that it is hard to navigate and tease out what is what. If someone joined the site now, where would they start?

I really like the idea of the site being a practice handbook first and foremost. Something somewhat diagnostic and explicit.

For the experts: would all the different traditions diagnose and treat the same way? Is this a realistic possibility?

I also would like a bit of heirarchy running through the site, if only to recognize how complex the fractal is, how easy it is to get lost, and to acknowledge that some people have really cracked the code.

I think some of these comments are different than classic wiki-philosophy, but I would like to keep them in the mix.

Hope that helps!
Eric Calhoun, modified 13 Years ago at 3/24/09 9:07 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/24/09 9:07 AM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/25/09 Recent Posts
I don't mean to interrupt all this useful dialogue, but there is a great story about the intersection of Jewish Mysticism and the Dharma in Shinzen Young's "Science of Enlightenment". There are 2 types of meditation in Jewish faith, Hisbodedus and Hisbonenus. The first is more common from what I understand, and is more typical prayer and technically done is seclusion. But Hisbonenus is the practice of "carefully observing/discriminating", the highest form of which is to experience "the creation of things/selves from nothing (God)" which is found through "the annihilation of somethingness". Young goes on to say that this Rabbi told him that the rocking that Jewish people do in prayer is at its root supposed to connect the practitioner with the ever expanding/contracting nature of creation. Good stuff, it's actually my favorite part of the whole book.

As y'all were...
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Antonio Ramírez, modified 13 Years ago at 3/24/09 4:53 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/24/09 4:53 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 55 Join Date: 9/9/09 Recent Posts
As I mentioned over private message: alas, no, I am not up to speed on Spanish language Buddhist jargon or resources emoticon

All my experience is recent and in English. Some of it is or should be pretty straightforward but it'd be nice to get it right in a translation to avoid alienating Spanish speakers who are already into Buddhism.

-Antonio [who should've really used "Antonio" as his nickname in the site emoticon]
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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 3/24/09 5:03 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/24/09 5:03 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Antonio,

Here's a nice Spanish language site on Theravada Buddhism:

http://tinyurl.com/cbaqed

It will help us get the hang of the jargon.
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 13 Years ago at 3/25/09 6:27 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/25/09 6:27 PM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 3231 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Great thread.

A few points:

1) If someone or some group want to translate MCTB: have at it. There is already a German translation and someone is working on a Swedish one.
2) As to a more formal structure: we are working on it. Hopefully, we will be able to do something like that with the new site. Vince and Lee get off retreat in the next few weeks and that should help get things moving again on that front.
3) As to inclusivity and accessibility, interesting and already much debated topic. Hopefully a new format will help. I am also considering redesigning the logo, making the colors not white on black, and generally prettying up the place a bit, and then hopefully wikiwords that allow people to get up to speed may help. We'll see.
4) For the moment, we are still small and going along ok. I do think there will be changes with the new site, but we may just have to roll with them as they come to us, and I suspect it will be some organic process that is difficult to anticipate.
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Julius P0pp, modified 13 Years ago at 3/27/09 1:28 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/27/09 1:28 AM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Posts: 50 Join Date: 8/17/09 Recent Posts
Maybe it's useful to separate practices and discussions for attaining stream entry from those for people who got paths so that new people find relevant information faster and with less confusion. Correct me if I am wrong, but for me it looks like there's a kind of mutual consent here that attaining stream entry should be a beginner's number one priority.

What I would love to read more about here are topics that so far feel a little "off-topic" here: Non-meditative practices (lifestyle and the like) that really can support meditation practices. There is tons of contradictory information on that out there, mostly written by people who have questionable enlightenment models, and as everybody has a lifestyle, there should be a lot to share and discuss. So if that's an interesting topic for ohters as well, I would wish that there'll be a place for those topics as well on the Dharma Overground while maintaining its emphasis on supporting hardcore meditation practice.
lena lozano, modified 13 Years ago at 4/11/09 6:23 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 4/11/09 6:23 AM

RE: Responses to Jewish Mysticism and the DhO

Post: 1 Join Date: 9/7/09 Recent Posts
Daniel, how i get to german translation? and i ll be happy to know when the spanish one will exist-some good friends of mine will enjoy it.thanks,Lena

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