No Rebirth = No point in Practicing? - Discussion
So, as much great kinky consensual and mutually enjoyable sex as I can handle or baking. I'll have to ponder that one for a while...
Honestly, I should mention that it's clear that I have no agency in any of this. Even my thoughts are clearly spontaneously happening, and this is liberating in a way that can't be comprehended. So I get your moral reservations, but even if I agreed, I don't have any choice in the matter. And honestly, I wouldn't change any of this if I could. It's all utterly perfect, and what "I" as poor consciousness do all day is sit around in Joy, Gratitude, and the Peace of high equanimity marveling at the perfection of it all.
Also, I don't think you quite grasp what root access to this Matrix means. My intentions, whatever they may be, manifest effortlessly. Because I've fuly seen through cause and effect, creativity and good taste are the limits of what's possible for me.
So, I could materialize behind you as you read this and say "boo!" Did you look?
Instead of baking, I could just create a race of sentient beings whose greatest pleasure was to guess what I wanted to eat and transform into it, giving me comments as they are being consumed. I've not done this, due to good taste, but I could. The idea of spending time practicing anything seems silly to me. Why not just do what you want?
And to be clear, when you become an Arhat, you won't get my level of power. It's reserved for Buddhas (Jesus was the last one), and that's just the way it works.
I'll also be jettisoning any karmic reliance on my form when I do my miracle, so I'll be able to shapeshift effortlessly, or even disappear at will. This should come in quite handy I imagine, especially in fulfilling my sexual partners deepest desires! And why not?
This place was meant to be an infinite playground; not something to take oh so seriously. That's what it will actually be for everyone when Jesus and I accomplish our mission. You know that secret thing you wish you could do, but the job and family and ... keep you from actually doing it? That's the thing you're actually meant to be doing, and will do effortlessly once you're fully awake. But by all means, keep pretending the other stuff matters if you want. Nothing wrong with yurts and baking.
Honestly, I should mention that it's clear that I have no agency in any of this. Even my thoughts are clearly spontaneously happening, and this is liberating in a way that can't be comprehended. So I get your moral reservations, but even if I agreed, I don't have any choice in the matter. And honestly, I wouldn't change any of this if I could. It's all utterly perfect, and what "I" as poor consciousness do all day is sit around in Joy, Gratitude, and the Peace of high equanimity marveling at the perfection of it all.
Also, I don't think you quite grasp what root access to this Matrix means. My intentions, whatever they may be, manifest effortlessly. Because I've fuly seen through cause and effect, creativity and good taste are the limits of what's possible for me.
So, I could materialize behind you as you read this and say "boo!" Did you look?
Instead of baking, I could just create a race of sentient beings whose greatest pleasure was to guess what I wanted to eat and transform into it, giving me comments as they are being consumed. I've not done this, due to good taste, but I could. The idea of spending time practicing anything seems silly to me. Why not just do what you want?
And to be clear, when you become an Arhat, you won't get my level of power. It's reserved for Buddhas (Jesus was the last one), and that's just the way it works.
I'll also be jettisoning any karmic reliance on my form when I do my miracle, so I'll be able to shapeshift effortlessly, or even disappear at will. This should come in quite handy I imagine, especially in fulfilling my sexual partners deepest desires! And why not?
This place was meant to be an infinite playground; not something to take oh so seriously. That's what it will actually be for everyone when Jesus and I accomplish our mission. You know that secret thing you wish you could do, but the job and family and ... keep you from actually doing it? That's the thing you're actually meant to be doing, and will do effortlessly once you're fully awake. But by all means, keep pretending the other stuff matters if you want. Nothing wrong with yurts and baking.
Look, rebirth isn't like the divinity of Christ in Christanity. The canonical Christian bottom line is: if you don't believe that Jesus is literally the son of God, you are doomed to Pugatory if you generally live a good life or Hell if you don't. Buddhism doesn't have that kind of hard belief requirement, and it's not possible to prove in any case. And it is not like believing in the existence of Santa Claus, because the existence of Santa Claus is provably false. It's more like believing in the existence of extraterrestrial intelligent beings, or even any kind of complex life somewhere else in the galaxy. That is provably falsifiable, but the evidence may be extremely difficult or even impossible to obtain absent sending a sublight probe to another star system.
There is evidence for rebirth but just like for extraterrestrial life, it is somewhat thin. Some children when they are very young report that they can remember a previous life (actually, my niece was in this category). As they grow older, they lose the memory. Most of these reports come out of cultures, like India, where belief in rebirth is widespread and therefore there may be cultural pressures on young children, especially if the parents are devout, to make such statements. Some people have experiences of previous lives of themselves or others during deep meditation, as the Buddha reportedly did during his night of enlightenment. The difficulty with these experiences is that the people experiencing them generate stories, and these stories are not possible to verify. They could involve misinterpretation.
The basic problem with rebirth is that each of the Buddhist traditions claims it occurs through a different mechanism. In the Theravadan tradition, the last thought of your previous life becomes a kind of default state for your next, called the bhavanga. Any time your mind is not occupied with something else, it rests in the bhavanga, and rebirth happens instantaneously when you die. In Tibetan Buddhism, you become a kind of disembodied spirit in the Bardo for a certain time until you are reborn. You can tell you are in the Bardo because everyone ignores you and you have no shadow. And in Zen, they never talk about rebirth. If you ask a Zen roshi about it, some will flat out say it doesn't occur.
Fundamentally, it really doesn't matter what you or I believe. If rebirth really happens, regardless that the traditions can't agree on a mechanism, then we will in some fashion be reborn. If not, then we will be gone. What really matters is how we live our lives right now. Do we live with compassion and kindness, honesty and respect, or with cruelty and hatred, dishonesty and disrespect? Meditation brings us up against our lives in a way that makes it difficult to ignore if we are behaving in a shabby manner. So in that respect, meditation is worthwhile, even ignoring the other documented mental and physical health benefits it brings.
Anyway, just my 0.02 euro.
There is evidence for rebirth but just like for extraterrestrial life, it is somewhat thin. Some children when they are very young report that they can remember a previous life (actually, my niece was in this category). As they grow older, they lose the memory. Most of these reports come out of cultures, like India, where belief in rebirth is widespread and therefore there may be cultural pressures on young children, especially if the parents are devout, to make such statements. Some people have experiences of previous lives of themselves or others during deep meditation, as the Buddha reportedly did during his night of enlightenment. The difficulty with these experiences is that the people experiencing them generate stories, and these stories are not possible to verify. They could involve misinterpretation.
The basic problem with rebirth is that each of the Buddhist traditions claims it occurs through a different mechanism. In the Theravadan tradition, the last thought of your previous life becomes a kind of default state for your next, called the bhavanga. Any time your mind is not occupied with something else, it rests in the bhavanga, and rebirth happens instantaneously when you die. In Tibetan Buddhism, you become a kind of disembodied spirit in the Bardo for a certain time until you are reborn. You can tell you are in the Bardo because everyone ignores you and you have no shadow. And in Zen, they never talk about rebirth. If you ask a Zen roshi about it, some will flat out say it doesn't occur.
Fundamentally, it really doesn't matter what you or I believe. If rebirth really happens, regardless that the traditions can't agree on a mechanism, then we will in some fashion be reborn. If not, then we will be gone. What really matters is how we live our lives right now. Do we live with compassion and kindness, honesty and respect, or with cruelty and hatred, dishonesty and disrespect? Meditation brings us up against our lives in a way that makes it difficult to ignore if we are behaving in a shabby manner. So in that respect, meditation is worthwhile, even ignoring the other documented mental and physical health benefits it brings.
Anyway, just my 0.02 euro.
svmonk:
Look, rebirth isn't like the divinity of Christ in Christanity. The canonical Christian bottom line is: if you don't believe that Jesus is literally the son of God, you are doomed to Pugatory if you generally live a good life or Hell if you don't. Buddhism doesn't have that kind of hard belief requirement, and it's not possible to prove in any case. And it is not like believing in the existence of Santa Claus, because the existence of Santa Claus is provably false. It's more like believing in the existence of extraterrestrial intelligent beings, or even any kind of complex life somewhere else in the galaxy. That is provably falsifiable, but the evidence may be extremely difficult or even impossible to obtain absent sending a sublight probe to another star system.
There is evidence for rebirth but just like for extraterrestrial life, it is somewhat thin. Some children when they are very young report that they can remember a previous life (actually, my niece was in this category). As they grow older, they lose the memory. Most of these reports come out of cultures, like India, where belief in rebirth is widespread and therefore there may be cultural pressures on young children, especially if the parents are devout, to make such statements. Some people have experiences of previous lives of themselves or others during deep meditation, as the Buddha reportedly did during his night of enlightenment. The difficulty with these experiences is that the people experiencing them generate stories, and these stories are not possible to verify. They could involve misinterpretation.
The basic problem with rebirth is that each of the Buddhist traditions claims it occurs through a different mechanism. In the Theravadan tradition, the last thought of your previous life becomes a kind of default state for your next, called the bhavanga. Any time your mind is not occupied with something else, it rests in the bhavanga, and rebirth happens instantaneously when you die. In Tibetan Buddhism, you become a kind of disembodied spirit in the Bardo for a certain time until you are reborn. You can tell you are in the Bardo because everyone ignores you and you have no shadow. And in Zen, they never talk about rebirth. If you ask a Zen roshi about it, some will flat out say it doesn't occur.
Fundamentally, it really doesn't matter what you or I believe. If rebirth really happens, regardless that the traditions can't agree on a mechanism, then we will in some fashion be reborn. If not, then we will be gone. What really matters is how we live our lives right now. Do we live with compassion and kindness, honesty and respect, or with cruelty and hatred, dishonesty and disrespect? Meditation brings us up against our lives in a way that makes it difficult to ignore if we are behaving in a shabby manner. So in that respect, meditation is worthwhile, even ignoring the other documented mental and physical health benefits it brings.
Anyway, just my 0.02 euro.
There is evidence for rebirth but just like for extraterrestrial life, it is somewhat thin. Some children when they are very young report that they can remember a previous life (actually, my niece was in this category). As they grow older, they lose the memory. Most of these reports come out of cultures, like India, where belief in rebirth is widespread and therefore there may be cultural pressures on young children, especially if the parents are devout, to make such statements. Some people have experiences of previous lives of themselves or others during deep meditation, as the Buddha reportedly did during his night of enlightenment. The difficulty with these experiences is that the people experiencing them generate stories, and these stories are not possible to verify. They could involve misinterpretation.
The basic problem with rebirth is that each of the Buddhist traditions claims it occurs through a different mechanism. In the Theravadan tradition, the last thought of your previous life becomes a kind of default state for your next, called the bhavanga. Any time your mind is not occupied with something else, it rests in the bhavanga, and rebirth happens instantaneously when you die. In Tibetan Buddhism, you become a kind of disembodied spirit in the Bardo for a certain time until you are reborn. You can tell you are in the Bardo because everyone ignores you and you have no shadow. And in Zen, they never talk about rebirth. If you ask a Zen roshi about it, some will flat out say it doesn't occur.
Fundamentally, it really doesn't matter what you or I believe. If rebirth really happens, regardless that the traditions can't agree on a mechanism, then we will in some fashion be reborn. If not, then we will be gone. What really matters is how we live our lives right now. Do we live with compassion and kindness, honesty and respect, or with cruelty and hatred, dishonesty and disrespect? Meditation brings us up against our lives in a way that makes it difficult to ignore if we are behaving in a shabby manner. So in that respect, meditation is worthwhile, even ignoring the other documented mental and physical health benefits it brings.
Anyway, just my 0.02 euro.
aloha monk,
What if I believe in something provably false, like santa claus, or rebirth? Does it matter?
Experiences are stories. Experiencer = ego. Provably false.
Provable, believable; to whom?
terry
from the gateless gate
Goso asked a monk, “Sei, the Chinese girl, who was separated from her soul. Which was the real Sei?”
Mumon’s Comment:
If you obtain genuine awareness of reality, you will know that the soul passes from one husk to another as travellers lodged in an inn. But if you have not obtained the awareness, you should not run around in confusion when the four elements are suddenly ready to become separated (i.e., to die), like a crab with its seven arms and eight legs thrown into the boiling water. Never say that I did not warn you.
The moon in the clouds is one and the same,
Valleys and mountains are various.
Fortunes above fortunes,
Is it one, or is it two?
from dogen, the shobogenzo, 'on buddha nature':
In the assembly of the virtuous monk Chōsa Keishin, his lay disciple Chiku, who was a high government official, raised a question, saying, “When a live earthworm is cut in two, both parts continue to move. I wonder, in which part does the Buddha Nature reside?”
The Master responded, “Do not engage in deluded, dualistic thinking.”
The official asked, “But how do you account for the twitching?”
The Master replied, “It is simply that the elements of wind and fire have not yet dissipated.”
Now, when the government official remarked about an earthworm being cut in two, had he concluded that, prior to its being cut, it was one segment of Buddha Nature? This is not the way things are viewed within the everyday experience of the Buddhas and Ancestors. The earthworm was not originally one segment of It, and, after being cut, the earthworm was not two segments of It. The assertion of ‘one’ and ‘two’ needs to be diligently explored through one’s training and practice. As to the ‘two parts’ in his saying that both parts continue to move, did he take the worm before it had been cut to be one part of Buddha Nature, and did he take That which goes beyond awakening to be one part of the worm? Regardless of how the government official may have understood his phrase ‘two parts’, do not disregard the words he spoke. Is it that the two cut segments made up one whole and, moreover, that they exist as a whole being? The movement of which he spoke when saying that both continue to move will be the movement of one’s meditative practice which loosens the roots of delusion and the movement of one’s wise discernment which pulls these roots out.
| "Arahants still suffer like the rest of us, as Daniel himself has put it in his books, posts, and interviews. The exact meaning of Arahant and the criteria that qualifies one as an Arahant are very controversial and subjective." Yes they still suffer, but not like the rest of us. The wonderful advantages of liberation are attested again and again, so I can't help thinking you are picking and choosing your evidence a little?  Although of course we all do that.I agree the meaning of Arahant changes. Daniel again makes the point nicely by saying that of the three components to the path, there is no limit on concentration or morality, but there is a definite endpoint on wisdom (the specific type of wisdom about phenomenal experince that unbinds from craving). 'Aharant' might be taken to mean one who has reached the endpoint on wisdom, but others may wish to demand certain standards of concentration or insight to use the term 'Aarahant'. So yeah, I agree with your second point. |
+1!!! Well put terry!!!
Really, it doesn't matter if you believe in rebirth or not. If it exists, you'll be reborn. If it doesn't, you won't. It's really a mystery but unlike other mysteries there isn't any way to assemble objective evidence for or against it, because it is kind of the place were relative reality and ultimate reality touch, and objective evidence only applies to relative reality. To me, the experiences people have of past and future lives (and, yes, I have had such experiences myself) are basically stories. Since stories are the way people explain relative reality, they need to be taken with a grain of salt when applied to ultimate reality. Not to be completely discounted, but rather to be greeted with "maybe so, friend, maybe so!"
Really, it doesn't matter if you believe in rebirth or not. If it exists, you'll be reborn. If it doesn't, you won't. It's really a mystery but unlike other mysteries there isn't any way to assemble objective evidence for or against it, because it is kind of the place were relative reality and ultimate reality touch, and objective evidence only applies to relative reality. To me, the experiences people have of past and future lives (and, yes, I have had such experiences myself) are basically stories. Since stories are the way people explain relative reality, they need to be taken with a grain of salt when applied to ultimate reality. Not to be completely discounted, but rather to be greeted with "maybe so, friend, maybe so!"
svmonk:
+1!!! Well put terry!!!
Really, it doesn't matter if you believe in rebirth or not. If it exists, you'll be reborn. If it doesn't, you won't. It's really a mystery but unlike other mysteries there isn't any way to assemble objective evidence for or against it, because it is kind of the place were relative reality and ultimate reality touch, and objective evidence only applies to relative reality. To me, the experiences people have of past and future lives (and, yes, I have had such experiences myself) are basically stories. Since stories are the way people explain relative reality, they need to be taken with a grain of salt when applied to ultimate reality. Not to be completely discounted, but rather to be greeted with "maybe so, friend, maybe so!"
Really, it doesn't matter if you believe in rebirth or not. If it exists, you'll be reborn. If it doesn't, you won't. It's really a mystery but unlike other mysteries there isn't any way to assemble objective evidence for or against it, because it is kind of the place were relative reality and ultimate reality touch, and objective evidence only applies to relative reality. To me, the experiences people have of past and future lives (and, yes, I have had such experiences myself) are basically stories. Since stories are the way people explain relative reality, they need to be taken with a grain of salt when applied to ultimate reality. Not to be completely discounted, but rather to be greeted with "maybe so, friend, maybe so!"
aloha sv,
(bowing in deep agreement and gratitude)
Stories are wonderful, I love them so much, and yet they are just imagination, no more real than dreams. Everything we think or tell ourselves is just a story, just as a three or four year old keeps up a running narrative for a host of different characters played by their toys.
This being so, stories, so familiar to all, can be used in themselves to elevate and instruct. There are stories on the level of netflix binge-watching (brain-washing), and then there are sufi stories, jataka tales, taoist and hindu stories, sacred writings and collections of folk tales from practically every human culture. Teachers of all ages have used stories convey wisdom.
terry
from idries shah, "learning how to learn":
IDIOT'S WISDOM
Q: Can you say something about your book Wisdom of the Idiots; how the tales and quotations work?
A: The great fraternity of Sufis claims these three things:
That the Sufi teaching leads to a realm of higher human enlightenment;
That whatever its changing outward forms, Sufism is timeless. It may be said to have existed always.
That the aim of Sufi teaching is to provoke experience towards higher knowledge, not simply to supply information or to deal in emotional stimuli.
Sufism has perfected, among other techniques, a characteristic teaching method which is almost unknown outside the ranks of the initiates of the Way. This method, called Diagrammatic of Impression Tales, is contained in the special use made by Sufis of oral and other literature.
Sufi stories, though they may seem on the surface to purvey a moral, or appear intended to entertain, are not literary forms as these things are commonly understood. They are literature incidentally, but teaching-materials primarily. Very many of the classical poets and writers of Persia are avowed Sufis: and their works contain such inner dimensions as those to which I am referring.
The Sufi tale, and certain Sufic quotations of other kinds, are designed, then, equally to be appreciated by the cultured, to convey information, to instruct and to provide what is called 'a framework for the reception of the illumination' in the mind of the student.
This book is designed with the intention of preserving in English not only the form but also the Sufi intention of the story.
One specific thing which can be said about the Sufi tale is that its construction is such as to permit the presentation to the mind of a design or series of relationships. When the reader's mind is familiar with this structure, he can understand concepts and experiences which have a similar structure, but which operate on a higher level of perception. It could be called the relationship of the blueprint to the finished apparatus.
This method, according to Sufi teaching, can yield enlightenment to the individual in accordance with his capacity to understand. It may also form an essential part of a student's preparation- exercises.
The process includes getting beyond the external face of a story, without inhibiting the student's capacity to understand and enjoy its humour or other outward characteristics.
In Sufi circles it is customary for students to soak themselves in stories set for their study, so that their many meanings can become available as and when they are useful for their development. This latter stage may at times require the aid of a teaching master, to indicate the time and place of such development.
It is for these reasons that, in old-fashioned terminology, Sufi tales are said to 'imprison a priceless secret', which is 'released by the power of a teaching master'.
To analyse these special tales deprives them of their instrumental value: just as taking a hammer to pieces would mean that it would cease to be a hammer. The tales have been used from immemorial antiquity as the bearers of knowledge and the instruments of understanding. But they have to be experienced aright. Here is one of the few which help in this experience, and no more can be said about the matter:
THE JOURNEY
A man was on a journey with a Sufi teacher when night fell, and both were tired and hungry. The master asked at a humble house for food and the tenant, a poor man, gave them everything he had.
In the morning, tie Sufi said: 'Blessings upon you and your house,' and the two travellers started on their way.
After they had gone a few steps, the disciple said:'We h ave surely not recompensed this man for his generosity. Could you not give him more than a mere blessing?'
'He has had enough. More would not be better' said the master.
But the soft-hearted disciple hung his head and with as much politeness as he could exercise, he insisted that 'all are bound to do all they can for others ...'
'Very well,' said the Sufi, 'I shall let you see what happens.'
He went back and called their host, saying to him:
'A treasure is buried in your garden. It is under that apple tree. Dig it up and flourish.'
The two set off again, and they wandered for a year. It so happened that they were passing the same way again, hungry and tired, when they saw that the house was no longer there. It had been replaced by a palace. The formerly kindly tenant was now a great lord, and everyone around was suffering from his tyranny.
'What do you say now?' asked the teacher.
'I understand what has happened,' said his disciple. 'But if you knew that this would happen, why did you do as I asked: in fact causing this man to become an oppressor?'
The master waved his hand; and the disciple saw that they were back in the conditions of a year before. No trace of the tyrant remained: they were looking at the smiling face of the humble cottager, waving them goodbye. It was at that moment that the disciple realised that the Sufi teacher had vanished. He has not found him since; and that was many years ago.