Brightmind - Discussion
Dear Terry,
I might have made the wrong impression. I am in no way affiliated with the app or the people behind it.
I do like Shinzen's approach though and I also happen to appreciate his teachings. Thus I was happy when I saw the app made available without a paywall a couple of days ago. I promptly subscribed and was happy with what I found. This lead me to share with a few friends (my sister even chided me earlier today for being a bit pushy) and given that I have already profited a lot (in the sense of inspiration, technique and insight) from lurking on DhO and pondering, among others, your amusing and, more often than not, profound posts as well, including more than one with Rumi quotes this very afternoon, I thought it would only be nice to make a contribution and let the people in this community know as some might truly benefit.
Sorry if my English was a bit pompous. Other than it not being my first language, it must be the narcissism
but on a more serious note, I do stand by the "generous gesture" bit. Adhering to one version of the principle of charity (i.e., in interpreting peoples' motives favourably until being given grounds to reconsider) I have in fact assumed that the humans behind the app had made it available in good faith, with good intentions; and furthermore, I do think that this move was indeed generous on their part. One reason among others is that I think it is entirely possible for someone to complete the whole curriculum contained in the app in three months or less and move on without ever parting with as much as a dime.
The issue of charging for dharma, not to mention copyrighting it, is of course controversial and murky on many levels so I have nothing against you bringing it up.
Whatever position one assumes in general, the fault in this specific case is all mine of course as I never did properly introduce myself on DhO so my post and motivation could easily be construed as part of a marketing campaign with pecuniary incentive. Shit, I have been planning to do so (and to finally start a practice log) for like ever... but hey, I promise I will in the days to come and if indeed I do, then the defilement known as procrastination will eventually have found its antidote in your critical commentary, for which I shall eternally (but, alas, not permanently) be grateful.
Yours truly,
b
I might have made the wrong impression. I am in no way affiliated with the app or the people behind it.
I do like Shinzen's approach though and I also happen to appreciate his teachings. Thus I was happy when I saw the app made available without a paywall a couple of days ago. I promptly subscribed and was happy with what I found. This lead me to share with a few friends (my sister even chided me earlier today for being a bit pushy) and given that I have already profited a lot (in the sense of inspiration, technique and insight) from lurking on DhO and pondering, among others, your amusing and, more often than not, profound posts as well, including more than one with Rumi quotes this very afternoon, I thought it would only be nice to make a contribution and let the people in this community know as some might truly benefit.
Sorry if my English was a bit pompous. Other than it not being my first language, it must be the narcissism
but on a more serious note, I do stand by the "generous gesture" bit. Adhering to one version of the principle of charity (i.e., in interpreting peoples' motives favourably until being given grounds to reconsider) I have in fact assumed that the humans behind the app had made it available in good faith, with good intentions; and furthermore, I do think that this move was indeed generous on their part. One reason among others is that I think it is entirely possible for someone to complete the whole curriculum contained in the app in three months or less and move on without ever parting with as much as a dime.The issue of charging for dharma, not to mention copyrighting it, is of course controversial and murky on many levels so I have nothing against you bringing it up.
Whatever position one assumes in general, the fault in this specific case is all mine of course as I never did properly introduce myself on DhO so my post and motivation could easily be construed as part of a marketing campaign with pecuniary incentive. Shit, I have been planning to do so (and to finally start a practice log) for like ever... but hey, I promise I will in the days to come and if indeed I do, then the defilement known as procrastination will eventually have found its antidote in your critical commentary, for which I shall eternally (but, alas, not permanently) be grateful.
Yours truly,
b
Balint Pinczes:
Chris Marti:
Balint, your post read like an ad for Brightmind. I thought that's what it was, too.
I guess it did. Thanks for the feedback, Chris!
Any posts about any sort of app regardless of what it is, should be labelled with a big "Trigger Warning" on DhO, as it will be faced with immediate and blanket level distrust. That's at least my experience on DhO.
Even though... DhO is an app. It's literally a "web application"
But hey - this actually looks like a good opportunity for us. Looks like one of the developers for Brightmind, Michael Fogelman, is actually a member here on this site. Maybe he could chime in to address some of the concerns here? (Though this post is now several years old so there's no telling if he's still active).
And now,
Balint Pinczes:
Chris Marti:
Balint, your post read like an ad for Brightmind. I thought that's what it was, too.
I guess it did. Thanks for the feedback, Chris!
I can see how your original post could be taken that way, but your subsequent post cleared it right up for me, you seem like a genuine person and meant no harm at all by this post
Happy meditating!
Balint Pinczes:
Dear Terry,
I might have made the wrong impression. I am in no way affiliated with the app or the people behind it.
I do like Shinzen's approach though and I also happen to appreciate his teachings. Thus I was happy when I saw the app made available without a paywall a couple of days ago. I promptly subscribed and was happy with what I found. This lead me to share with a few friends (my sister even chided me earlier today for being a bit pushy) and given that I have already profited a lot (in the sense of inspiration, technique and insight) from lurking on DhO and pondering, among others, your amusing and, more often than not, profound posts as well, including more than one with Rumi quotes this very afternoon, I thought it would only be nice to make a contribution and let the people in this community know as some might truly benefit.
Sorry if my English was a bit pompous. Other than it not being my first language, it must be the narcissism but on a more serious note, I do stand by the "generous gesture" bit. Adhering to one version of the principle of charity (i.e., in interpreting peoples' motives favourably until being given grounds to reconsider) I have in fact assumed that the humans behind the app had made it available in good faith, with good intentions; and furthermore, I do think that this move was indeed generous on their part. One reason among others is that I think it is entirely possible for someone to complete the whole curriculum contained in the app in three months or less and move on without ever parting with as much as a dime.
The issue of charging for dharma, not to mention copyrighting it, is of course controversial and murky on many levels so I have nothing against you bringing it up.
Whatever position one assumes in general, the fault in this specific case is all mine of course as I never did properly introduce myself on DhO so my post and motivation could easily be construed as part of a marketing campaign with pecuniary incentive. Shit, I have been planning to do so (and to finally start a practice log) for like ever... but hey, I promise I will in the days to come and if indeed I do, then the defilement known as procrastination will eventually have found its antidote in your critical commentary, for which I shall eternally (but, alas, not permanently) be grateful.
Yours truly,
b
I might have made the wrong impression. I am in no way affiliated with the app or the people behind it.
I do like Shinzen's approach though and I also happen to appreciate his teachings. Thus I was happy when I saw the app made available without a paywall a couple of days ago. I promptly subscribed and was happy with what I found. This lead me to share with a few friends (my sister even chided me earlier today for being a bit pushy) and given that I have already profited a lot (in the sense of inspiration, technique and insight) from lurking on DhO and pondering, among others, your amusing and, more often than not, profound posts as well, including more than one with Rumi quotes this very afternoon, I thought it would only be nice to make a contribution and let the people in this community know as some might truly benefit.
Sorry if my English was a bit pompous. Other than it not being my first language, it must be the narcissism
but on a more serious note, I do stand by the "generous gesture" bit. Adhering to one version of the principle of charity (i.e., in interpreting peoples' motives favourably until being given grounds to reconsider) I have in fact assumed that the humans behind the app had made it available in good faith, with good intentions; and furthermore, I do think that this move was indeed generous on their part. One reason among others is that I think it is entirely possible for someone to complete the whole curriculum contained in the app in three months or less and move on without ever parting with as much as a dime.The issue of charging for dharma, not to mention copyrighting it, is of course controversial and murky on many levels so I have nothing against you bringing it up.
Whatever position one assumes in general, the fault in this specific case is all mine of course as I never did properly introduce myself on DhO so my post and motivation could easily be construed as part of a marketing campaign with pecuniary incentive. Shit, I have been planning to do so (and to finally start a practice log) for like ever... but hey, I promise I will in the days to come and if indeed I do, then the defilement known as procrastination will eventually have found its antidote in your critical commentary, for which I shall eternally (but, alas, not permanently) be grateful.
Yours truly,
b
"The issue of charging for the dharma, not to mention copywriting it" is not controversial in my view. It always has that odor.
t
Siavash:
Hi terry,
If we agree that having apps and websites about meditation, in general is a good thing (As mentioned above, this very DhO is just one of those apps), then there is an issue here: It requires a lot of money to create each one of these. Who should pay those people that create these apps? They need to eat.
(Let's forget that there is one Daniel Ingram that makes it all free and instead of paying for his vacation, pays for this editor that I am typing in.)
If we agree that having apps and websites about meditation, in general is a good thing (As mentioned above, this very DhO is just one of those apps), then there is an issue here: It requires a lot of money to create each one of these. Who should pay those people that create these apps? They need to eat.
(Let's forget that there is one Daniel Ingram that makes it all free and instead of paying for his vacation, pays for this editor that I am typing in.)
I would argue that most of us here have benefitted in some way from some sort of center like this, whether we have paid for classes or gotten them for free. And whether that monastery is modern or existed 2,000 years ago. Those teachers still need(ed) to be able to eat. My personal experience with this is that these teachers by and large do NOT make very much money, at all. Granted, it is somewhat limited but I have been involved in administrative duties at one such center.
For example, the center I have worked with pays their resident teacher around $300 a month, which is all the money they have left over each month after paying rent. This is someone who is putting in 20-30 hours a week teaching classes. It's hardly a lucrative profession.
Also keep in mind, for many of these organizations, everything is actually donation based, it may just be a suggested amount. They will never turn someone away for lack of money.
Of course, could take the stance that we would be better off without any such organizations and that we should live in a moneyless society. Well that would be great, wouldn't it
It's not a trivial point that DhO is completely free. I think it's a great thing and we are lucky to have someone like Dan who has the resources and the time to have put this thing together. (Though I don't think Dan is sacrificing any of his vacation time for this site - at least, I hope he's not!)
There will always be people acting selfishly and profiting off Dharma for their own personal gain. But to say "anyone receiving any money for anything Dharma-related is immoral" is just as extreme as saying "there are no people out there trying to misuse these teachings".
J W:
Siavash:
Hi terry,
If we agree that having apps and websites about meditation, in general is a good thing (As mentioned above, this very DhO is just one of those apps), then there is an issue here: It requires a lot of money to create each one of these. Who should pay those people that create these apps? They need to eat.
(Let's forget that there is one Daniel Ingram that makes it all free and instead of paying for his vacation, pays for this editor that I am typing in.)
If we agree that having apps and websites about meditation, in general is a good thing (As mentioned above, this very DhO is just one of those apps), then there is an issue here: It requires a lot of money to create each one of these. Who should pay those people that create these apps? They need to eat.
(Let's forget that there is one Daniel Ingram that makes it all free and instead of paying for his vacation, pays for this editor that I am typing in.)
I would argue that most of us here have benefitted in some way from some sort of center like this, whether we have paid for classes or gotten them for free. And whether that monastery is modern or existed 2,000 years ago. Those teachers still need(ed) to be able to eat. My personal experience with this is that these teachers by and large do NOT make very much money, at all. Granted, it is somewhat limited but I have been involved in administrative duties at one such center.
For example, the center I have worked with pays their resident teacher around $300 a month, which is all the money they have left over each month after paying rent. This is someone who is putting in 20-30 hours a week teaching classes. It's hardly a lucrative profession.
Also keep in mind, for many of these organizations, everything is actually donation based, it may just be a suggested amount. They will never turn someone away for lack of money.
Of course, could take the stance that we would be better off without any such organizations and that we should live in a moneyless society. Well that would be great, wouldn't it
It's not a trivial point that DhO is completely free. I think it's a great thing and we are lucky to have someone like Dan who has the resources and the time to have put this thing together. (Though I don't think Dan is sacrificing any of his vacation time for this site - at least, I hope he's not!)
There will always be people acting selfishly and profiting off Dharma for their own personal gain. But to say "anyone receiving any money for anything Dharma-related is immoral" is just as extreme as saying "there are no people out there trying to misuse these teachings".
I'm with zen, as huang po points out, "there are no zen teachers." When his students said, well, look at you, he replied, "I didn't say there is no zen, only that there are no zen teachers."
To me a teacher - and I feel the same about psychotherapists - is a friend, and a friend doesn't charge you for their friendship. I have found generally that people who practice these arts for money are not accomplished adepts, but ongoing aspirants. Drug counselors are generally addicts; marriage counselors generally divorced. If you profit from their assistance, you owe them nothing, for you have paid them, they have received compensation and deserve no friendship, loyalty, or support in any ongoing personal, hiuman, social way. This is functionally an alienated and alienating society. A society in which friends were adequate to these human needs is not necessarily a moneyless society, though such is not to be sneered at either. In rural districts we make do with each other for all but hard cases. People with a little more wisdom than average are consulted, offhand, not a big deal, and in a context where everyone knows everyone.
I also feel that meditation is not complicated, that one can read a sutta and meditate forthwith without missing anything. "Teachers" are more like coaches, providing encouragement and facilities. I think this can be overdone, like triathletes, who begin with an idea to improve overall fitness and end up mindlessly persuing personal bests in meaningless exercise, to their physical, mental and emotional detriment, and an undermining of healthy social functioning.
The attractions of fame and gain stalk us all the time in every endeavor.
terry
from "the way of chuang tzu" trans thomas merton
When an archer is shooting for nothing, he has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle, he is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold, he goes blind or sees two targets --
He is out of his mind!
His skill has not changed. But the prize divides him.
He cares. He thinks more of winning than of shooting--
And the need to win drains him of power.
terry
"You can doubt all you want, without evidence. Facts and truth are not opinions. I think the biggest problem this society has, bar none, is that they can't distinguish truth from lies. Lack of practice, no doubt.
As for you having to pay people to listen to you whine, that's rather like paying a prostitute. If you need therapy and have no wise friends, I guess you are out of luck.
t"
Lol, and what evidence do you have that "marriage counselors are generally divorced"?
My comment about whining was an attempt at a joke, and a bad one apparently, as you appear to have taken it personally.
As for you having to pay people to listen to you whine, that's rather like paying a prostitute. If you need therapy and have no wise friends, I guess you are out of luck.
t"
Lol, and what evidence do you have that "marriage counselors are generally divorced"?
My comment about whining was an attempt at a joke, and a bad one apparently, as you appear to have taken it personally.
J W:
"You can doubt all you want, without evidence. Facts and truth are not opinions. I think the biggest problem this society has, bar none, is that they can't distinguish truth from lies. Lack of practice, no doubt.
As for you having to pay people to listen to you whine, that's rather like paying a prostitute. If you need therapy and have no wise friends, I guess you are out of luck.
t"
Lol, and what evidence do you have that "marriage counselors are generally divorced"?
My comment about whining was an attempt at a joke, and a bad one apparently, as you appear to have taken it personally.
As for you having to pay people to listen to you whine, that's rather like paying a prostitute. If you need therapy and have no wise friends, I guess you are out of luck.
t"
Lol, and what evidence do you have that "marriage counselors are generally divorced"?
My comment about whining was an attempt at a joke, and a bad one apparently, as you appear to have taken it personally.
A recent study (mccoy and aamodt), which admittedly underreports, doesn't address marriage counselors directly but listed occupational therapists as having a divorce rate of 24.2% My assertion was based on general statistics and some anecdotal evidence - I have a cousin, divorced, mariiage counselor, and her husband the same. They believe, and their peers believe, that being divorced makes them better counselors. Ditto drug counselors, who in many jurisdictions are required to be ex addicts (and they generally believe that once an addict always an addict). I expect the number of divorces among marriage counselors to be higher than 25%. But perhaps "most" was an exaggeration in making the point. Perhaps not. Make of it what you will.
Sorry I didn't get the joke. Having actually lived in a ghetto for a year (five points, denver) I knew lots of mentally ill people who had no one to care for them, or listen to them. The situation, please understand, is truly dire and exacerbated like so many social shortfalls are by the pandemic.
The situation in nursing homes is enough to make me cry.
terry
https://apnews.com/article/nursing-homes-neglect-death-surge-3b74a2202140c5a6b5cf05cdf0ea4f32
I understand and appreciate where you are coming from. It seems like you have had some very real and difficult experiences in your life and I don't doubt that those experiences have provided you with a unique and raw look into the truth of suffering. I do hope that I can learn from your experience and the experience of others, especially those who are less privileged, in some way, so that I can act better and more effectively in lessening the suffering of those who suffer the most. (And by that I mean, eliminating my own delusions.) This is the goal of my practice.
Don't worry about the joke, and I understand your use of hyperbole. I think what we had here was a communication breakdown, which is basically unavoidable, especially when you are communicating over the internet and not face to face.
Have a wonderful weekend
Don't worry about the joke, and I understand your use of hyperbole. I think what we had here was a communication breakdown, which is basically unavoidable, especially when you are communicating over the internet and not face to face.
Have a wonderful weekend
J W:
I understand and appreciate where you are coming from. It seems like you have had some very real and difficult experiences in your life and I don't doubt that those experiences have provided you with a unique and raw look into the truth of suffering. I do hope that I can learn from your experience and the experience of others, especially those who are less privileged, in some way, so that I can act better and more effectively in lessening the suffering of those who suffer the most. (And by that I mean, eliminating my own delusions.) This is the goal of my practice.
Don't worry about the joke, and I understand your use of hyperbole. I think what we had here was a communication breakdown, which is basically unavoidable, especially when you are communicating over the internet and not face to face.
Have a wonderful weekend
Don't worry about the joke, and I understand your use of hyperbole. I think what we had here was a communication breakdown, which is basically unavoidable, especially when you are communicating over the internet and not face to face.
Have a wonderful weekend
Any antagonism is hyperbolic, my friend. I appreciate your willingness to try to keep me honest. I usually do have better references than anecdotal evidence, and you caught me.
One should pay attention to the breakdowns, among thoughtful people they provide material for reflection. The spaces are often more significant than the marks, as we take the time and space to let things work themselves out.
I appreciate your good will. It makes honest discussion possible and also warms the heart.
I remember that as ronald reagan's progressive senile dementia loosened his handlers' grip on him, he floated the idea one time that the world would be a much better place if we were invaded by aliens and the whole world had to band together to fight the common enemy. Now his vision has come to pass and we have the virus attacking all without regard to race, creed or origin (also global warming and the larger theme of drowning in our own effluvia). The current crisis ultimately is a crisis of good will, of people using their differences as strengths to fight a common enemy, the deterioration of our global social, moral, spiritual and physical environment.
Polarization is so 2020.
terry