Access concentration after a change in Morality? - Discussion
You got some pretty good answers in this thread, and in my humble oppinion, the thing is quite simple and straightforward.
So, daily meditation practise, especially when just starting out, can be a wonderful litmus test to diagnose the issues with your morality that need some work and improvement.
So usually same "stuff" will keep coming back to haunt you, until you realize your own folly, and change your ways, thus improving sila.
So for instance, in your daily sitting, one quite often gets some impressions, images and memories of particularry nasty and unskillfull things you said and did in the past, and until you realize that this needs to change, ask for forgivness(at least mentally) from the ones you've hurt, and forgive yourself, and most importantly behave more skilfully in the future, things will certailny stagnate.
If you on the other hand you do take the hint, internalize and integrate lessons from your daily practise, slowly but surely you will become a nicer, kinder, more compassionate and skillfull person, or at least less of an arsehole.
This slow but steady transformation of your bad habits will also bring about much more peaceful, pleaseant and stabile mind, and then access concentration and jhanas will become much more available, nice and steady, almost on demand, because now you wiil have much less "stuff" torturing you.
So in a nutshell, not improving sila/morality and still trying to keep up a daily meditation practise is akin to washing a car with one hand, and throwing slimy mud on it with another. kinda doesn't make sense
I've heard a quote that goes something like, "if your daily practise of prayer/meditation/spirituallity is not making you into a nicer person, than you're doing it wrong, and its all in vain", and that would sum it up perfectly. so realize the fact that Sila is a foundation, improve your morality, be a good boy, and your meditation practice will improve steadily, and life will become much nicer
Be well,
FranKo
So, daily meditation practise, especially when just starting out, can be a wonderful litmus test to diagnose the issues with your morality that need some work and improvement.
So usually same "stuff" will keep coming back to haunt you, until you realize your own folly, and change your ways, thus improving sila.
So for instance, in your daily sitting, one quite often gets some impressions, images and memories of particularry nasty and unskillfull things you said and did in the past, and until you realize that this needs to change, ask for forgivness(at least mentally) from the ones you've hurt, and forgive yourself, and most importantly behave more skilfully in the future, things will certailny stagnate.
If you on the other hand you do take the hint, internalize and integrate lessons from your daily practise, slowly but surely you will become a nicer, kinder, more compassionate and skillfull person, or at least less of an arsehole.
This slow but steady transformation of your bad habits will also bring about much more peaceful, pleaseant and stabile mind, and then access concentration and jhanas will become much more available, nice and steady, almost on demand, because now you wiil have much less "stuff" torturing you.
So in a nutshell, not improving sila/morality and still trying to keep up a daily meditation practise is akin to washing a car with one hand, and throwing slimy mud on it with another. kinda doesn't make sense
I've heard a quote that goes something like, "if your daily practise of prayer/meditation/spirituallity is not making you into a nicer person, than you're doing it wrong, and its all in vain", and that would sum it up perfectly. so realize the fact that Sila is a foundation, improve your morality, be a good boy, and your meditation practice will improve steadily, and life will become much nicer
Be well,
FranKo
Hey Jack,
I was actually referring to myself when mentioning that practice tends to make one into a kinder person, or at least less of an arsehole, so sorry if it seemed like a criticism. just sharing my personal experience
The thing about morality is that it is a necessary prerequisite for peaceful and concentrated mind, but it is definitely not a direct cause for concentration. good concentration takes alot of persistent work over a period of time, so even if your morality is top notch you will still have to work hard to establish good samadhi. no need to go out of your way to be kind, or pretend to be some kind of saint. just be nice - the golden rule (do unto others as you would have them do to you) applies here as well.
The issues you mention seem just like ordinary monkey-mind to me, and everyone has that to a certain extent, so the trick is just steady and consistent practise that builds your concentration muscles over time. unfortunately there are no shortcuts and ways around it.
just go easy on yourself. when you notice mind has wondered off, just gently note "thinking", and bring it back to the breath. try to see the silky-smooth quality of the breath once the mind settles a bit. it helps to enjoy what you're doing, so dont consider this as some kind of task or chore that you have to do. just be with the breath, notice how beautiful, soft and ethereal it can really get. the trick it to be gentle with your self, keep returning back to the breath 100 times if necessary, and you will slowly get into the groove, mind will gradually grow silent, then you can drop the counting and just go with the flow.
I have found not tao's shamata method quite simple, useful and to the point:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5666656
If you want faster progress, then a retreat is your best bet, or at least a short home retreat of couple of days of consistent practise. you can cultivate pretty good concentration in couple of days of retreat setting, the trick is intensive and uninterrupted practise. highly recommended.
Good luck,
FranKo
I was actually referring to myself when mentioning that practice tends to make one into a kinder person, or at least less of an arsehole, so sorry if it seemed like a criticism. just sharing my personal experience
The thing about morality is that it is a necessary prerequisite for peaceful and concentrated mind, but it is definitely not a direct cause for concentration. good concentration takes alot of persistent work over a period of time, so even if your morality is top notch you will still have to work hard to establish good samadhi. no need to go out of your way to be kind, or pretend to be some kind of saint. just be nice - the golden rule (do unto others as you would have them do to you) applies here as well.
The issues you mention seem just like ordinary monkey-mind to me, and everyone has that to a certain extent, so the trick is just steady and consistent practise that builds your concentration muscles over time. unfortunately there are no shortcuts and ways around it.
just go easy on yourself. when you notice mind has wondered off, just gently note "thinking", and bring it back to the breath. try to see the silky-smooth quality of the breath once the mind settles a bit. it helps to enjoy what you're doing, so dont consider this as some kind of task or chore that you have to do. just be with the breath, notice how beautiful, soft and ethereal it can really get. the trick it to be gentle with your self, keep returning back to the breath 100 times if necessary, and you will slowly get into the groove, mind will gradually grow silent, then you can drop the counting and just go with the flow.
I have found not tao's shamata method quite simple, useful and to the point:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5666656
If you want faster progress, then a retreat is your best bet, or at least a short home retreat of couple of days of consistent practise. you can cultivate pretty good concentration in couple of days of retreat setting, the trick is intensive and uninterrupted practise. highly recommended.
Good luck,
FranKo
Hi Neko
1. I concentrate on the warm/cool of the breath in my nostrils, watching it as one continuous, smooth sensation. When I notice my mind wandering from the breath, I note "thinking" and return to the breath.
Based on experimentation, I've developed this method to start (only if I am having a hard time concentrating to start out with)
I count "1" for the outbreath, "2" for the inbreath, so on up to 10.
Then I count "1" for out-in, "2" for out-in, up to 10.
Then "1" for out-in-out, "2" for in-out-in. Up to 10. Then, four half-breaths per number. Finally, five half-breaths per number.
Then I am able to stay with the breath without counting for a while (for me, this is probably 30 seconds to 2 minutes). Visual distractions may blip in for a fraction of a second, but I'm able to stay on the breath. Eventually though, the blips grow longer, and one of them might hook me and I'm lost.
2. What I wrote above is a best-case scenario. A visual distraction will just flash in and out for 0.2-3 seconds (ish), but I'm more grounded on the breath. But if I get "hooked" by a distraction, it's more like I'm under control of the thought, not even recalling my purpose for sitting.
3. Tough one. I've posted this question myself here, everyone seems to have different answers. I think I read Ingram wrote "you'll know it when you get there", so I'm probably not there. Some have said it's when staying with the breath is easy and effortless. I might get this for 5-10 breaths at best. I read something like one should work up to sustaining it for an hour, before having a base to go onto vipassana or jhanas. For me, even ten minutes of staying with the breath without getting "hooked" would be a great accomplishment.
4. Cool you are a go player You know when you get into a fight on a corner of the board and you are just reacting impulsively, often in gote. Or in sente against an opponent during a close fight. In other words, not big-picture strategic thinking, but impulsive reactionary moves that might happen on a blitz game. When you're in atari, get out of it. Then they'll do that. Then I'll do this. Then they'll do that. Then I'll do this, and so on. Varies from 1 second to 15 seconds, breath is faintly in the background. Decided today to stop playing, at least for a while.
5. I feel any effort to ignore it only strengthens these distractions. No vows taken, so perhaps ending it would help. So far I feel fantasies are a very consistent kind of distraction regardless my lifestyle.
So far the main advice here seems is to relax, though I'm concerned if my concentration is less laser-focused on the continuousness of the breath, the more vulnerable I'll be to distraction. I'll give it a go though.
What are your standards for access concentration?
1. I concentrate on the warm/cool of the breath in my nostrils, watching it as one continuous, smooth sensation. When I notice my mind wandering from the breath, I note "thinking" and return to the breath.
Based on experimentation, I've developed this method to start (only if I am having a hard time concentrating to start out with)
I count "1" for the outbreath, "2" for the inbreath, so on up to 10.
Then I count "1" for out-in, "2" for out-in, up to 10.
Then "1" for out-in-out, "2" for in-out-in. Up to 10. Then, four half-breaths per number. Finally, five half-breaths per number.
Then I am able to stay with the breath without counting for a while (for me, this is probably 30 seconds to 2 minutes). Visual distractions may blip in for a fraction of a second, but I'm able to stay on the breath. Eventually though, the blips grow longer, and one of them might hook me and I'm lost.
2. What I wrote above is a best-case scenario. A visual distraction will just flash in and out for 0.2-3 seconds (ish), but I'm more grounded on the breath. But if I get "hooked" by a distraction, it's more like I'm under control of the thought, not even recalling my purpose for sitting.
3. Tough one. I've posted this question myself here, everyone seems to have different answers. I think I read Ingram wrote "you'll know it when you get there", so I'm probably not there. Some have said it's when staying with the breath is easy and effortless. I might get this for 5-10 breaths at best. I read something like one should work up to sustaining it for an hour, before having a base to go onto vipassana or jhanas. For me, even ten minutes of staying with the breath without getting "hooked" would be a great accomplishment.
4. Cool you are a go player
You know when you get into a fight on a corner of the board and you are just reacting impulsively, often in gote. Or in sente against an opponent during a close fight. In other words, not big-picture strategic thinking, but impulsive reactionary moves that might happen on a blitz game. When you're in atari, get out of it. Then they'll do that. Then I'll do this. Then they'll do that. Then I'll do this, and so on. Varies from 1 second to 15 seconds, breath is faintly in the background. Decided today to stop playing, at least for a while.5. I feel any effort to ignore it only strengthens these distractions. No vows taken, so perhaps ending it would help. So far I feel fantasies are a very consistent kind of distraction regardless my lifestyle.
So far the main advice here seems is to relax, though I'm concerned if my concentration is less laser-focused on the continuousness of the breath, the more vulnerable I'll be to distraction. I'll give it a go though.
What are your standards for access concentration?
Overdue response
I'm happy to read your reply. The weiqi blips have since disappeared since stopping the game (though since replaced with other stuff), I think you are right about making a big deal over it.
My main goal with meditation is to see reality really well, or experience it more directly—so I bet that would mean developing insight via Mahasi noting. Experiencing concentration jhanas would be cool too, as a side, but not my priority. AC is required before either of these next phases though, right?
For example, concerning the first jhana, Ingram first writes about developing access concentration "If you wish to attain this, I would try to stay as completely as possible with an object for perhaps 1 minute. When you can do this, try for 10 minutes. When you can do this, try for an hour".
As for objects, I thought scanning/noting was more a vipassana thing, rather than a means of getting to Access concentration. I've tried belly, and fire kasina (though the latter not for long). I guess I've been sticking with breath because so many others have attained greater concentration and insight using it, it's credible. But I haven't heard of the Shinzen thing, I'll look it up.
I'm happy to read your reply. The weiqi blips have since disappeared since stopping the game (though since replaced with other stuff), I think you are right about making a big deal over it.
My main goal with meditation is to see reality really well, or experience it more directly—so I bet that would mean developing insight via Mahasi noting. Experiencing concentration jhanas would be cool too, as a side, but not my priority. AC is required before either of these next phases though, right?
For example, concerning the first jhana, Ingram first writes about developing access concentration "If you wish to attain this, I would try to stay as completely as possible with an object for perhaps 1 minute. When you can do this, try for 10 minutes. When you can do this, try for an hour".
As for objects, I thought scanning/noting was more a vipassana thing, rather than a means of getting to Access concentration. I've tried belly, and fire kasina (though the latter not for long). I guess I've been sticking with breath because so many others have attained greater concentration and insight using it, it's credible. But I haven't heard of the Shinzen thing, I'll look it up.
Jack:
Overdue response
I'm happy to read your reply. The weiqi blips have since disappeared since stopping the game (though since replaced with other stuff), I think you are right about making a big deal over it.
My main goal with meditation is to see reality really well, or experience it more directly—so I bet that would mean developing insight via Mahasi noting. Experiencing concentration jhanas would be cool too, as a side, but not my priority. AC is required before either of these next phases though, right?
For example, concerning the first jhana, Ingram first writes about developing access concentration "If you wish to attain this, I would try to stay as completely as possible with an object for perhaps 1 minute. When you can do this, try for 10 minutes. When you can do this, try for an hour".
As for objects, I thought scanning/noting was more a vipassana thing, rather than a means of getting to Access concentration. I've tried belly, and fire kasina (though the latter not for long). I guess I've been sticking with breath because so many others have attained greater concentration and insight using it, it's credible. But I haven't heard of the Shinzen thing, I'll look it up.
I'm happy to read your reply. The weiqi blips have since disappeared since stopping the game (though since replaced with other stuff), I think you are right about making a big deal over it.
My main goal with meditation is to see reality really well, or experience it more directly—so I bet that would mean developing insight via Mahasi noting. Experiencing concentration jhanas would be cool too, as a side, but not my priority. AC is required before either of these next phases though, right?
For example, concerning the first jhana, Ingram first writes about developing access concentration "If you wish to attain this, I would try to stay as completely as possible with an object for perhaps 1 minute. When you can do this, try for 10 minutes. When you can do this, try for an hour".
As for objects, I thought scanning/noting was more a vipassana thing, rather than a means of getting to Access concentration. I've tried belly, and fire kasina (though the latter not for long). I guess I've been sticking with breath because so many others have attained greater concentration and insight using it, it's credible. But I haven't heard of the Shinzen thing, I'll look it up.
Cool that there are so many go players here!
Jack, it's clear to me that you already have "access concentration." Check out MCTB2 on access concentration - Daniel takes back the "you'll know it when you get it" statement because it was just causing a lot of confusion.
Access concentration isn't anything special - it's not anything particularly noticable. It just means you've been meditating a little bit and it happens automatically as you start noting or working on jhanas.