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sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a PCE

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sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a PCE tarin greco 11/5/10 1:55 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a ManZ A 11/5/10 10:33 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Steph S 11/9/10 12:32 AM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a ManZ A 11/9/10 8:59 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Nad A. 11/9/10 10:34 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a ManZ A 11/9/10 10:45 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Nad A. 11/11/10 3:36 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/11/10 5:33 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a tarin greco 11/11/10 6:38 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/12/10 11:03 AM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Nad A. 11/12/10 11:25 AM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a tarin greco 11/12/10 11:36 AM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Jason Lissel 11/12/10 2:33 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Nad A. 11/12/10 3:12 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a ManZ A 11/12/10 6:59 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/10/10 4:28 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Steph S 11/10/10 5:35 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/10/10 9:23 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a David Nelson 11/10/10 9:07 PM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Christian Ballhaus 11/21/10 10:43 AM
RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a Pål S. 12/17/10 11:28 AM
these points and instructions, from two of richard's correspondences, served 'me' well, and so i deem them worth reprinting here (in the actualism/actual freedom section of the discussion forum) in full, particularly as they are relevant to both practitioners who have not yet recalled/not yet had a pce and those who have had a pce but do not understand how to make use of its memory.

i have entitled the below selections in bold, have made a few formatting changes to accomodate the bulletin board code, and have included a substitution for context {in curly brackets}. otherwise, texts are reprinted as they appear on the af trust website.

--

on pure intent and the memory of a PCE

RESPONDENT: (...) I do know that what I’m doing is not what is propagated by the af-website. I’m not too worried about it, as I’m sure this is just part of the process, which will eventually make me discover pure intent and put me on the path to actual freedom. (...) I’ve been wondering about this statement of Richard:

: ‘An actualist’s intent is a pure intent and discovering how to blend this pure intent – via attentiveness – into one’s conscious life is the process that places one on the wide and wondrous path to actual freedom’. (link)

How did you get the pure intent or how did you keep the intent running? Are there certain events that lead to it’s discovery? Is there are a particular approach you would advise other to get pure intent?

RICHARD: G’day No. 13, Just putting in a plug for what is propagated by the website.

The ultimate source of an actualist’s pure intent is, of course, the pristine purity of the innocence which prevails in the pure consciousness experience (PCE).

For those who are unable to recall/ unable to trigger a PCE there is the near-purity of the sincerity which inheres in naiveté – the nearest a ‘self’ can get to innocence whilst remaining a ‘self’ – which naiveté is an aspect of oneself locked away in childhood through ridicule, derision, and so on, that one has dared not to resurrect for fear of appearing foolish, a simpleton in both others’ eyes and, thus, one’s own.

(Because ‘naïve’ and ‘gullible’ are so closely linked – via the trusting nature of a child in concert with the lack of knowledge inherent to childhood – in the now-adult mind most peoples initially have difficulty separating the one from another).

Now, seeing the fact (as ‘I’ am ‘my’ feelings and ‘my’ feelings are ‘me’) that it is plainly and simply ‘my’ choice as to how ‘I’ experience this moment (the only moment one is actually alive) is a first step leading to its discovery.

And, as the part-sentence you have quoted (further above) has been extracted out from the middle of the first paragraph of the section entitled ‘The Who And How of Attentiveness And Sensuousness And Apperceptiveness’, in the ‘Attentiveness And Sensuousness And Apperceptiveness’ article, then the opening lines provide a clue to an answer for your queries. Vis.:

(quote) ‘The intent is you will become happy and harmless.
The intent is you will be free of sorrow and malice. The intent is you will become blithesome and benign. The intent is you will be free of fear and aggression. The intent is you will become carefree and considerate. The intent is you will be free from nurture and desire. The intent is you will become gay and benevolent. The intent is you will be free of anguish and animosity. The intent is that, by being free of the Human Condition you will experience peace-on-earth, in this life-time, as this body ... as is evidenced in the PCE. (...)’. (endquote)

Spelled-out sequentially that first part of the paragraph, immediately prior to the part-sentence you extracted, can look something like this:

1. The initial intent comes from a vital interest in becoming happy and harmless.

That intent thus creates a vested interest in being free of sorrow and malice.

2. The initial intent comes from a vital interest in becoming blithesome and benign.

That intent thus creates a vested interest in being free of fear and aggression.

3. The initial intent comes from a vital interest in becoming carefree and considerate.

That intent thus creates a vested interest in being free from nurture and desire.

4. The initial intent comes from a vital interest in becoming gay and benevolent.

That intent thus creates a vested interest in being free of anguish and animosity.

*

All of this vital interest/ vested interest enables sincerity – as to be in accord with the fact/being aligned with factuality staying true to facticity is what being sincere is (as in being authentic/ guileless, genuine/ artless, straightforward/ ingenuous) and to be sincere is to be the key which unlocks naiveté ... then the summing-up sentence can now look something like this:

The [sincere/ naïve] intent, then, is that by being free of the human condition you will experience peace-on-earth, in this life-time, as this body ... as is evidenced in the PCE.

As that summary sentence leads straight on to the sentence you have part-quoted from then it too can now look something like this:

• (quote): ‘(...) An actualist’s intent is a [sincere/ naïve] intent and discovering how to blend this [sincere/ naïve] intent via attentiveness – into one’s conscious life is the process that places one on the wide and wondrous path to actual freedom ... this path is a virtual freedom’. (end quote)

Which in turn is immediately followed by the how-to sentences:

• (quote) ‘Uncovering how to prolong the condition of virtual freedom – via attentiveness and sensuousness – is still another process. These are felicitous [and innocuous] processes, however, and they are well worth the effort for attentiveness and sensuousness are central to virtual freedom and the key to the whole condition. Attentiveness and sensuousness are both the goal of actualism and the means to that end: one reaches apperceptiveness by being ever more sensuous and one activates sensuousness by being ever more attentive ... and one activates attentiveness by no longer ‘feeling good’. (endquote)

In other words, it is the experiencing of no longer ‘feeling good’ (or ‘feeling happy/ harmless’ or ‘feeling excellent/ perfect’) which activates attentiveness again (as in it ‘jogs the memory’ to pay attention).

It is all a very, very simple method, actually.

Then the next paragraph provides more clues:

• (quote) ‘Attentiveness reminds one to apply one’s sensuousness to the pertinent situation at the opportune time and to implement surely the appropriate amount of activity needed to do the job. When this vitality is judiciously applied, one stays constantly in a condition of virtual freedom. As long as this condition of virtual freedom is maintained, those feeling-states called ‘moods’ cannot arise for there is no anguish or animosity – virtually no malice or misery – when attentiveness is present.’ (endquote)

Those three sentences are immediately followed by an acknowledgement of and an allowance for the obvious:

• (quote) ‘Nevertheless, one is still ‘human’ and to be ‘human’ is to err ... and most people are very ‘human’ and err repeatedly.

Despite [sincere/ naïve] intent, the actualist lets their attentiveness slip now and then and one finds oneself stuck in some unfortunate – but normal – ‘human’ failure. It is attentiveness that notices that change ... and it is attentiveness that reminds one to apply the [sincere/ naïve] intent required to pull oneself out.’ (endquote)

That paragraph then goes on to point out how the process proceeds from there:

• (quote) ‘Slipping into ‘normal’ happens over and over, but the frequency decreases with the assimilation of the fact that the absence of anguish and animosity in one’s moment-to-moment experience allows one’s daily life to be peaceful and harmonious way beyond normal ‘human’ expectations. Once attentiveness has exposed those affective defilements, sensuousness provides a more considerate and carefree condition ... one is happy and harmless for ninety-nine percent of the time.’ (endquote)

And it finishes with both a summary and a lead-in to the next paragraph:

• (quote) ‘It is attentiveness which notices the change from ‘normal’ into happiness and harmlessness, and which reminds the actualist to maintain the [sincere/naïve] intent needed to keep one blithe and benign ... and which allows apperception to freely happen. Apperceptiveness makes possible salubrity and sagacity (...).’ (link)

As to be apperceptive is to be having a PCE then ultimate source of pure intent – the pristine purity of the innocence which prevails there – is now freely available.

!Open Sesame![1]

Incidentally, just before/ just as the PCE starts to wear off, if one unravels (metaphorically) a ‘golden thread’ or ‘clew’[2], as one is slipping back into the real-world, an intimate connection is thus established betwixt the pristine-purity of an actual innocence and the near-purity of the sincerity of naiveté.

At least, that is the way it worked for the identity inhabiting this flesh-and-blood body, all those years ago, inasmuch ‘his’ recall of PCE’s was a naïve remembrance, rather than a cognitive memory, and ‘he’ thus experienced a constant pull, each moment again, into the immaculate perfection of the actual world ... and thus away from the contaminated imperfection of the real world.

Being a ‘fatal attraction’, so to speak, it rendered the entire process virtually effortless.

*

[1] [Dictionary Definition]: ‘open sesame: a (marvellous or irresistible) means of securing access to what would usu. be inaccessible’. (Oxford Dictionary)

[2] [Dictionary Definition]: ‘clew: a ball of yarn etc. used to trace a path through a maze (as in the Greek myth of Theseus in the Labyrinth); a thing which guides through perplexity, a difficult investigation, an intricate structure, etc.’(Oxford Dictionary).

(source)

--

on sincerity and naivete

RICHARD: (...) I would like to emphasise a couple of important aspects to {the above selection} regarding sincerity/ naiveté.

Given that it is, plainly and simply, always ‘my’ choice as to how ‘I’ experience this moment then the optimum manner in which to do so is, of course, sincerely/ naïvely.

Thus the part-sentence in that previous post of mine (quote) ‘and to be sincere is to be the key which unlocks naiveté’ (endquote) is worth expanding upon.

The operative words in that part-sentence are (quote) ‘... to be the key ...’ (endquote) and with particular emphasis on the word ‘be’ (rather than ‘have’ for instance).

In other words, to be sincerity (not only have sincerity) is to be the key (not merely have the key) to be naiveté (not just have naiveté).

(Bear in mind that, at root, ‘I’ am ‘my’ feelings and ‘my’ feelings are ‘me’ and it will all become clear).

As there is something I have oft-times encouraged a fellow human being to try, in face-to-face interactions, which usually has the desired effect it is well worth detailing here:

Reach down inside of yourself intuitively (aka feeling it out) and go past the rather superficial emotions/ feelings (generally in the chest area) into the deeper, more profound passions/ feelings (generally in the solar plexus area) until you come to a place (generally about four-finger widths below the navel) where you intuitively feel you elementarily have existence as a feeling being (as in ‘me’ at the core of ‘my’ being ... which is ‘being’ itself).

Now, having located ‘being’ itself, gently and tenderly sense out the area immediately below that (just above/just before and almost touching on the sex centre).

Here you will find yourself both likeable and liking (for here lies sincerity/ naiveté).

Here is where you can, finally, like yourself (very important) no matter what.

Here is the nearest a ‘self’ can get to innocence whilst remaining a ‘self’.

Here lies tenderness/ sweetness and togetherness/ closeness.

Here is where it is possible to be the key.

(source)

RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a
Answer
11/5/10 10:33 PM as a reply to tarin greco.
Thank you Tarin, that helped.

RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a
Answer
11/9/10 12:32 AM as a reply to tarin greco.
tarin greco:

Reach down inside of yourself intuitively (aka feeling it out) and go past the rather superficial emotions/ feelings (generally in the chest area) into the deeper, more profound passions/ feelings (generally in the solar plexus area) until you come to a place (generally about four-finger widths below the navel) where you intuitively feel you elementarily have existence as a feeling being (as in ‘me’ at the core of ‘my’ being ... which is ‘being’ itself).

Now, having located ‘being’ itself, gently and tenderly sense out the area immediately below that (just above/just before and almost touching on the sex centre).

Here you will find yourself both likeable and liking (for here lies sincerity/ naiveté).

Here is where you can, finally, like yourself (very important) no matter what.

Here is the nearest a ‘self’ can get to innocence whilst remaining a ‘self’.

Here lies tenderness/ sweetness and togetherness/ closeness.

Here is where it is possible to be the key.



I've been tapping into this since you told me about it yesterday, Tarin. This is an easily accessible tool that's immediately useful, so I encourage others to try it out. To clarify the location, or what "is" actually there.. It's pretty much just an open space that's reliable in its lack of activity and feeling. What ensues when one taps into this space is stillness that can easily lead to apperceptive awareness (i.e. PCE). Here's what was happening today when I was actively placing attention on the space.

I went to the Hsi Lai Temple in Hacienda Heights, CA because I wanted to be in a place that was interesting to look at, quiet and where I could remain undisturbed for a longer period of time. In the Main Shrine there are benches along the walls, and so I sat there for what was likely over 2 hours, placing attention on my senses. Whenever there was a slight inclination to get up and go somewhere else, I resisted the urge (which was felt at the "being center" where the instinctual passions arise from). It wasn't resisting in a way like I thought getting up was the "wrong/bad" thing to do, but with the knowledge that an instinctual "impatience" inclination was kicking in. So at that point I would focus on the space below and a permeating stillness would naturally occur that kept me grounded and happy where I was. Pretty much the entire time I was there I was apperceptively sensing everything around me and was in fact "it"... the sight of the 3 giant golden Buddha statues and all the shadows and flickers of light forming on and around them, the scent of the incense, other bodies wandering in and out, doing their prostrations, chattering away, etc. I might as well have been totally invisible to any of these other people as their presence did nothing other than make me aware of a person passing by, wasn't uncomfortable or self-conscious of sitting there while others were doing their thing. When I did finally go (for lunch), I went to a local library after. Picked up a book and sat there reading it all the way through, totally pleased to be there. I'd say I was immersed in the story, but that's only seeing it halfway. I was very aware of the surroundings. There was quite a few school children sitting on the floor directly in front of me and chairs around me. They were being loud, like kids are, sometimes teasing each other and arguing. It was amusing. I had no desire to shush them or get them to stop whatever they were doing (although one of the library workers said a few times stuff like "Hey don't hit him. Keep your hands to yourself"). Laughed to myself, knowing that regardless of what was told to them at that moment, they would be kids and inclined to tease each other. If they're let be their short attention spans will shift to another activity soon enough. True, true. Kids are actually pretty self-regulating and have surprising amounts of maturity if given the opportunity (i.e. if not feeling completely controlled, thus barring a need to rebel to have freedom. Oh, I suppose that applies to us adults too, eh?) emoticon Very pleasing and fun afternoon working with this newly discovered space. Still happy right now.

Steph

Steph S:
tarin greco:

Reach down inside of yourself intuitively (aka feeling it out) and go past the rather superficial emotions/ feelings (generally in the chest area) into the deeper, more profound passions/ feelings (generally in the solar plexus area) until you come to a place (generally about four-finger widths below the navel) where you intuitively feel you elementarily have existence as a feeling being (as in ‘me’ at the core of ‘my’ being ... which is ‘being’ itself).

Now, having located ‘being’ itself, gently and tenderly sense out the area immediately below that (just above/just before and almost touching on the sex centre).

Here you will find yourself both likeable and liking (for here lies sincerity/ naiveté).

Here is where you can, finally, like yourself (very important) no matter what.

Here is the nearest a ‘self’ can get to innocence whilst remaining a ‘self’.

Here lies tenderness/ sweetness and togetherness/ closeness.

Here is where it is possible to be the key.



I've been tapping into this since you told me about it yesterday, Tarin. This is an easily accessible tool that's immediately useful, so I encourage others to try it out. To clarify the location, or what "is" actually there.. It's pretty much just an open space that's reliable in its lack of activity and feeling. What ensues when one taps into this space is stillness that can easily lead to apperceptive awareness (i.e. PCE). Here's what was happening today when I was actively placing attention on the space.

I went to the Hsi Lai Temple in Hacienda Heights, CA because I wanted to be in a place that was interesting to look at, quiet and where I could remain undisturbed for a longer period of time. In the Main Shrine there are benches along the walls, and so I sat there for what was likely over 2 hours, placing attention on my senses. Whenever there was a slight inclination to get up and go somewhere else, I resisted the urge (which was felt at the "being center" where the instinctual passions arise from). It wasn't resisting in a way like I thought getting up was the "wrong/bad" thing to do, but with the knowledge that an instinctual "impatience" inclination was kicking in. So at that point I would focus on the space below and a permeating stillness would naturally occur that kept me grounded and happy where I was. Pretty much the entire time I was there I was apperceptively sensing everything around me and was in fact "it"... the sight of the 3 giant golden Buddha statues and all the shadows and flickers of light forming on and around them, the scent of the incense, other bodies wandering in and out, doing their prostrations, chattering away, etc. I might as well have been totally invisible to any of these other people as their presence did nothing other than make me aware of a person passing by, wasn't uncomfortable or self-conscious of sitting there while others were doing their thing. When I did finally go (for lunch), I went to a local library after. Picked up a book and sat there reading it all the way through, totally pleased to be there. I'd say I was immersed in the story, but that's only seeing it halfway. I was very aware of the surroundings. There was quite a few school children sitting on the floor directly in front of me and chairs around me. They were being loud, like kids are, sometimes teasing each other and arguing. It was amusing. I had no desire to shush them or get them to stop whatever they were doing (although one of the library workers said a few times stuff like "Hey don't hit him. Keep your hands to yourself"). Laughed to myself, knowing that regardless of what was told to them at that moment, they would be kids and inclined to tease each other. If they're let be their short attention spans will shift to another activity soon enough. True, true. Kids are actually pretty self-regulating and have surprising amounts of maturity if given the opportunity (i.e. if not feeling completely controlled, thus barring a need to rebel to have freedom. Oh, I suppose that applies to us adults too, eh?) emoticon Very pleasing and fun afternoon working with this newly discovered space. Still happy right now.

Steph



I can also attest to the efficacy of this "feeling it out" technique. I started off using it precisely in situations where Richard suggests it be used (social interactions) as that's where I've been having problems with anxiety most often. Whenever I experience any sort of anxiety while I'm talking with someone, I try to "feel out" this area. I've found the main reason or belief (in me anyways) that causes the anxiety has something to do with me not believing that I'm "likable or liking" and I become very self-conscious or I really want the interaction to end quickly and try in some way to end it. The feelings are always self-justified, so just investigating them usually didn't end the anxiety for me (in these situations). I can't exactly figure out the reason why (maybe because I think it's supposed to work), but I'm more able to enjoy the moment, the conversation, and the company of the other person (in other words the anxiety ends) with whomever after I "feel out" this area. Another thing this made me realize is that liking yourself IS very important (may be obvious, but it wasn't for me), as I've noticed that if you don't you end up with a huge amount of doubt in your own experience or you start dissociating. So I found this very helpful.

Is this 'reaching down' practice best for those with meditation experience? I ask because I have little/no mediation xp and can't seem to get started with things like this 'reaching down inside'. I don't even feel my emotions as being in parts of my body.

Nad A.:
Is this 'reaching down' practice best for those with meditation experience? I ask because I have little/no mediation xp and can't seem to get started with things like this 'reaching down inside'. I don't even feel my emotions as being in parts of my body.


I can honestly say it is not as I have very little meditation experience. It may be worth looking at what exactly constitutes an emotion for you first.

tarin greco:

Reach down inside of yourself intuitively (aka feeling it out) and go past the rather superficial emotions/ feelings (generally in the chest area) into the deeper, more profound passions/ feelings (generally in the solar plexus area) until you come to a place (generally about four-finger widths below the navel) where you intuitively feel you elementarily have existence as a feeling being (as in ‘me’ at the core of ‘my’ being ... which is ‘being’ itself).

Now, having located ‘being’ itself, gently and tenderly sense out the area immediately below that (just above/just before and almost touching on the sex centre).

Here you will find yourself both likeable and liking (for here lies sincerity/ naiveté).

Here is where you can, finally, like yourself (very important) no matter what.

Here is the nearest a ‘self’ can get to innocence whilst remaining a ‘self’.

Here lies tenderness/ sweetness and togetherness/ closeness.

Here is where it is possible to be the key.


I tried this after I read it a few days ago. I ended up getting really pleasant body sensations.. which I think was 1st jhana. So it's good for focusing if anything =). i didn't really feel the area itself too well. i'll have to try it out when i'm talking to people / doing something.

RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a
Answer
11/10/10 5:35 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Beo Beoman:

I tried this after I read it a few days ago. I ended up getting really pleasant body sensations.. which I think was 1st jhana. So it's good for focusing if anything =). i didn't really feel the area itself too well. i'll have to try it out when i'm talking to people / doing something.


Do you mean the culmination of the whole process itself of reaching down inside, versus hitting a specific location in the body, is what you think caused the 1st jhana like sensations? At what point did these sensations start occurring? Was there a specific location trigger you recall? If so, how was this location different from where you perceive "the area itself" might be?

I'm asking this for a couple reasons: 1. to see if you can better pin point which areas produce which sensations (and if that may be helpful for you). 2. because I'm curious if how I'm accessing it garners different results. Once "reaching down inside" on my first attempts and then finding "the area itself" proved successful, in subsequent times I have just gone directly to focusing on that area instead of doing the whole reaching down inside process.

Steph

RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a
Answer
11/10/10 9:07 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Beo Beoman:


I tried this after I read it a few days ago. I ended up getting really pleasant body sensations.. which I think was 1st jhana. So it's good for focusing if anything =). i didn't really feel the area itself too well. i'll have to try it out when i'm talking to people / doing something.


My experience with this practice is that it is somehow different than asking HAIETMOBA. Whenever I ask HAIETMOBA I usually experience waves of pleasure emanating from an area in the center of my head. When I focus on the area described above it was as if I was touching upon a potent source of something. By experiencing through this area I am able to let a lot of things go as meaningless and arrive at deeper meaning.

Steph S:
Do you mean the culmination of the whole process itself of reaching down inside, versus hitting a specific location in the body, is what you think caused the 1st jhana like sensations? At what point did these sensations start occurring? Was there a specific location trigger you recall? If so, how was this location different from where you perceive "the area itself" might be?

I'm asking this for a couple reasons: 1. to see if you can better pin point which areas produce which sensations (and if that may be helpful for you). 2. because I'm curious if how I'm accessing it garners different results. Once "reaching down inside" on my first attempts and then finding "the area itself" proved successful, in subsequent times I have just gone directly to focusing on that area instead of doing the whole reaching down inside process.

Steph


I believe it was definitely the process. I started at the chest, then went to the solar plexus, then I spent some time trying to find my lower tan-tien, which I think is the same as the four finger widths below the navel he's referring to. I spent some time there.. I also tried going up from the 'sex centre' since that seemed easier to pinpoint. But I think all that searching around had got me pretty focused on my body in general, so looking around that area I started to notice the pleasant body sensations. I'm not sure if it was 1st jhana.. i'm pretty new to being able to perceive it well enough to label it as such. but it felt good, so then I pretty much stopped the exercise and focused on the pleasant feelings, which then amplified a bit.

I'm not sure if I even pinpointed the dan'tien or this at-ease area, so hitting them is probably not what did it. It seemed like they came on pretty gradually.

I spent most of my time rooting around around that navel area though, so if a location does trigger it, it'd be somewhere around there, not the chest or solar plexus as far as I can tell.

ManZ A:
Nad A.:
Is this 'reaching down' practice best for those with meditation experience? I ask because I have little/no mediation xp and can't seem to get started with things like this 'reaching down inside'. I don't even feel my emotions as being in parts of my body.


I can honestly say it is not as I have very little meditation experience. It may be worth looking at what exactly constitutes an emotion for you first.


Anxiety produces various sensations in the body such as heart-racing and butterflies-in-the-stomach. Are those sensations what is meant by the 'locations' of the emotions? To me they seem more like physiological side-effects of the core feeling, which is something altogether harder to put my finger on, let alone locate.

Nad A.:
Anxiety produces various sensations in the body such as heart-racing and butterflies-in-the-stomach. Are those sensations what is meant by the 'locations' of the emotions? To me they seem more like physiological side-effects of the core feeling, which is something altogether harder to put my finger on, let alone locate.


I think that is what is meant, yes. If you're stressed, your chest/shoulders/back are probably not relaxed. if you're exited/anxious, you have butterflies in your stomach, etc. An emotion is not just a thought.. it's a full-body reaction.

RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a
Answer
11/11/10 6:38 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Beo Beoman:
Nad A.:
Anxiety produces various sensations in the body such as heart-racing and butterflies-in-the-stomach. Are those sensations what is meant by the 'locations' of the emotions? To me they seem more like physiological side-effects of the core feeling, which is something altogether harder to put my finger on, let alone locate.


I think that is what is meant, yes. If you're stressed, your chest/shoulders/back are probably not relaxed. if you're exited/anxious, you have butterflies in your stomach, etc. An emotion is not just a thought.. it's a full-body reaction.


beoman - no, that is not what is meant. while an emotion is 'not just a thought', nor is it 'a full-body reaction'. an emotion is an intuitive experience with an affective (and thus affected) quality.

nad - what you are looking for is how you feel, rather than (only) how your body reacts to how you feel. though the ensuing bodily reaction is likely to be part-and-parcel of the affective experience (as it will almost certainly be overlaid by such experience), the primacy of your focus ought to be on the intuited affective (and thus affected) quality of the experience itself. that is what is meant by 'reach down inside yourself intuitively (aka feeling it out) - the instruction is specifically for a feeling being.

tarin

RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a
Answer
11/12/10 11:03 AM as a reply to tarin greco.
Beoman Beo Beoman:

Thanks for the correction. Can you define affective and affected actually? I hear it everywhere with AF texts (and other random words, but will get to those later).

here is a suitable definition for affective:

relating to moods, feelings, and attitudes (oxford dictionary)

and here are a few suitable definitions for affected:

1. Acted upon, influenced, or changed.
2. Emotionally stirred or moved. (american heritage dictionary)

1. deeply moved, esp by sorrow or grief
2. changed, esp detrimentally (collins english dictionary)


Beoman Beo Beoman:

Does it just mean that it is a quality that actually affects you somehow?

what it means is that it is a quality that alters the entire way you experience (anything). pay attention to how the vicissitudes in the flow of your mood alter your experience of what it is to be alive. rather than attempt to pick apart and focus on this or that aspect of the experience, get a feel for it as a whole. do this enough and the alterations will become obvious and you won't have to think of emotions in other terms in order to recognise them anymore.

tarin

RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a
Answer
11/12/10 11:25 AM as a reply to tarin greco.
tarin greco:
nad - what you are looking for is how you feel, rather than (only) how your body reacts to how you feel. though the ensuing bodily reaction is likely to be part-and-parcel of the affective experience (as it will almost certainly be overlaid by such experience), the primacy of your focus ought to be on the intuited affective (and thus affected) quality of the experience itself. that is what is meant by 'reach down inside yourself intuitively (aka feeling it out) - the instruction is specifically for a feeling being.

tarin


So, the suggestion is to reach down inside [how I feel]... and this should lead to noticing that [how I feel] has what feels like a bodily location - such as in the chest area and these other 'centres' mentioned?

Nad A.:
tarin greco:
nad - what you are looking for is how you feel, rather than (only) how your body reacts to how you feel. though the ensuing bodily reaction is likely to be part-and-parcel of the affective experience (as it will almost certainly be overlaid by such experience), the primacy of your focus ought to be on the intuited affective (and thus affected) quality of the experience itself. that is what is meant by 'reach down inside yourself intuitively (aka feeling it out) - the instruction is specifically for a feeling being.

tarin


So, the suggestion is to reach down inside [how I feel]... and this should lead to noticing that [how I feel] has what feels like a bodily location - such as in the chest area and these other 'centres' mentioned?


yes. further, as you wrote above, 'the core feeling [...] is something altogether harder to put my finger on, let alone locate', you may find it easier to put your finger on how you are feeling if you are able to generally locate it (though this is just a guess).

tarin

RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a
Answer
11/12/10 2:33 PM as a reply to tarin greco.
Where does this dan tien practice fit in the actualism method sequence? As soon as I notice I'm not feeling good? Is it used to get back to feeling good?

RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a
Answer
11/12/10 3:12 PM as a reply to tarin greco.
tarin greco:
Nad A.:
tarin greco:
nad - what you are looking for is how you feel, rather than (only) how your body reacts to how you feel. though the ensuing bodily reaction is likely to be part-and-parcel of the affective experience (as it will almost certainly be overlaid by such experience), the primacy of your focus ought to be on the intuited affective (and thus affected) quality of the experience itself. that is what is meant by 'reach down inside yourself intuitively (aka feeling it out) - the instruction is specifically for a feeling being.

tarin


So, the suggestion is to reach down inside [how I feel]... and this should lead to noticing that [how I feel] has what feels like a bodily location - such as in the chest area and these other 'centres' mentioned?


yes. further, as you wrote above, 'the core feeling [...] is something altogether harder to put my finger on, let alone locate', you may find it easier to put your finger on how you are feeling if you are able to generally locate it (though this is just a guess).

tarin


I think I need to clarify that I'm not having any trouble identifying how I am feeling. I was asked what constitutes an emotion for me. What I meant was 'harder to put my finger on' is what a feeling like anxiety actually is, separate from its effects on heart-rate and stomach. So far I've never found a feeling to have any location in the body.

The idea that such a nebulous thing as anxiety - which when present seems to just be pasted over everything in my consciousness - can have a bodily location is very strange to me.

Nad A.:
tarin greco:
Nad A.:
tarin greco:
nad - what you are looking for is how you feel, rather than (only) how your body reacts to how you feel. though the ensuing bodily reaction is likely to be part-and-parcel of the affective experience (as it will almost certainly be overlaid by such experience), the primacy of your focus ought to be on the intuited affective (and thus affected) quality of the experience itself. that is what is meant by 'reach down inside yourself intuitively (aka feeling it out) - the instruction is specifically for a feeling being.

tarin


So, the suggestion is to reach down inside [how I feel]... and this should lead to noticing that [how I feel] has what feels like a bodily location - such as in the chest area and these other 'centres' mentioned?


yes. further, as you wrote above, 'the core feeling [...] is something altogether harder to put my finger on, let alone locate', you may find it easier to put your finger on how you are feeling if you are able to generally locate it (though this is just a guess).

tarin


I think I need to clarify that I'm not having any trouble identifying how I am feeling. I was asked what constitutes an emotion for me. What I meant was 'harder to put my finger on' is what a feeling like anxiety actually is, separate from its effects on heart-rate and stomach. So far I've never found a feeling to have any location in the body.

The idea that such a nebulous thing as anxiety - which when present seems to just be pasted over everything in my consciousness - can have a bodily location is very strange to me.


I agree, as far as I can discern the feeling of anxiety (or any feeling) isn't located in the body. But the body's response to the feeling as Tarin pointed out may be "part-and-parcel of the affective experience" and it by itself is not the feeling. A lot of the feelings consistently have the same "physiological side effects" and those can be located in the body (e.g. I generally feel the fear center to be in the stomach or solar plexus area). So I just think of the feeling as having both physical and mental components (The term "affective experience" instead of feelings may be more appropriate when talking about both). Thus I understood statements such as "more profound passions/ feelings (generally in the solar plexus area)" to mean that and just worked with it.

As for the feelings themselves, well they're "me" as "I am my feelings and my feelings are me" and I agree that they are rather nebulous. Their non-actuality becomes apparent when "I" go into abeyance in a PCE as there is no sense of "me" or "my feelings" (which seem to arise concurrently) there. The physiological side effects also do not arise as one would need the corresponding feeling to go along with them. These are some things my investigations have shown me, and if I'm wrong I'm sure it too will become apparent with some application of sincerity.

RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a
Answer
11/21/10 10:43 AM as a reply to tarin greco.
The Correspondence with Richard printed above is probably the most useful tool about the application of the Actualism method Ive read so far. So if youre practising Actualism and routing towards an Actual Freedom try to really get this. The method is more simple than one thinks at the beginning.
Some of the the most useful practice tips from Tarins and Daniels Hurrican Ranch Discussion, which helped "ME" most to self-immolate can be found in this correspondence. So it helped at least 2 people on their path to an Actual Freedom.

RE: sincerity, naivete, and the means to make something of the memory of a
Answer
12/17/10 11:28 AM as a reply to tarin greco.
Thank you for this post Tarin, those instructions are invaluable. For me this sincere/naive intent feels like a wormhole through, and a way out from, the attention wave. This wormhole expands in correlation with how willing one are to let go of the illusionary hideout in the attention wave, until it is finally allowed to flourish into a wondrous PCE as the actual world closes in around this body.