Message Boards Message Boards

Practices Inspired by Actualism

How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack

Toggle
How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Johannes Bugenhagen 11/9/10 7:10 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Johannes Bugenhagen 11/9/10 7:18 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack My Fragile Ego 11/9/10 1:49 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack John Mitchell 11/9/10 5:46 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Johannes Bugenhagen 11/9/10 8:32 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack John Mitchell 11/10/10 5:26 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Johannes Bugenhagen 11/10/10 7:43 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack tarin greco 12/26/10 1:44 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Johannes Bugenhagen 11/10/10 10:13 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/10/10 4:17 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Nikolai . 11/10/10 6:56 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack aaron . 11/23/10 4:11 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/23/10 6:34 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/23/10 6:50 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Pål S. 12/23/10 8:49 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/24/10 1:14 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Christian Ballhaus 12/24/10 7:18 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack John Mitchell 12/24/10 5:55 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 12/24/10 7:13 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/24/10 8:15 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 12/24/10 8:33 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/24/10 9:02 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 12/24/10 10:33 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Bruno Loff 12/24/10 1:10 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/25/10 6:59 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Bruno Loff 12/25/10 7:16 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/25/10 8:01 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Nad A. 12/25/10 8:36 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/25/10 8:16 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Jason Lissel 12/25/10 9:30 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/26/10 12:53 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack tarin greco 12/26/10 1:57 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/26/10 2:25 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack tarin greco 12/26/10 9:26 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/26/10 11:25 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Florian 12/27/10 12:54 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Jason Lissel 12/27/10 3:02 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Jason Lissel 12/26/10 3:10 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/26/10 3:52 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Nad A. 12/26/10 5:36 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Nad A. 12/25/10 9:38 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Change A. 12/26/10 12:37 AM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Daniel M. Ingram 12/24/10 4:00 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack Johannes Bugenhagen 11/9/10 8:36 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack John Mitchell 11/9/10 5:33 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack rich s 11/9/10 5:45 PM
RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack John Mitchell 11/9/10 6:05 PM
https://docs.google.com/View?id=dc35b3gv_70hpjsdzvt

Richard's response:

http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/gardolcorrespondence/00index.htm

What do the folks here make of it?

I found Richard's response to be highly acrimonious, full of epithets and indignation, and over-the-top in its reactivity. It must have taken him hundreds of hours to compose it and format and link it properly.

Here is just some words from the prologue, to give an idea:

"a hatchet work from beginning to end"

"cunningly calculated public smear-campaign but also a craftily contrived promotion of a bastardised variety of Spiritualism"

"the criticaster generally budges not one iota from their affectively-reactive and thus pathetically entrenched position"

"the above author’s one-eyed comeback"

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/9/10 7:18 AM as a reply to Johannes Bugenhagen.
Here are some more choice epithets:

from http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/gardolcorrespondence/08How-I-Achieved-Actual-Freedom.htm#36

"a cheap-trickster, a sneaky-snipper, a sly-deceiver, an ignorant-judger, a molehill-mountaineer, a fraudulent-justifier, a mud-slinger, a bull-artist and spin-doctor all rolled into one"

A shining exhibition of a "personal peace on earth", one must say.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/9/10 1:49 PM as a reply to Johannes Bugenhagen.
Gardol replied to Luciano recently on one of the mailing lists. Having witnessed Luciano's antics here it piqued my interest and I read Gardol Yack's account for the first time, hoping to gain a better understanding of what the two were on about.

At first I was excited. Was it possible he had discovered actual freedom, and yet was an outcast? He certainly implied such in his first post, but then he starts trying to highlight behaviour of Richard's that he has a problem with and suggests he will conclusively show various things by the end of his essay. He never managed to do it, however, so it came across like he had an emotional reaction to Richard's writing and couldn't get past it.

By the end I was disappointed in his conclusions and felt I had wasted my time reading it. When it was first written, no one else had become actually free. Since the time of writing a whole bunch of people have become actually free. As I suggested to him on the mailing list - I think he threw the baby out with the bath water.

Craig

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/9/10 5:33 PM as a reply to Johannes Bugenhagen.
Johannes Bugenhagen:
https://docs.google.com/View?id=dc35b3gv_70hpjsdzvt

Richard's response:

http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/gardolcorrespondence/00index.htm

What do the folks here make of it?

I found Richard's response to be highly acrimonious, full of epithets and indignation, and over-the-top in its reactivity. It must have taken him hundreds of hours to compose it and format and link it properly.

Here is just some words from the prologue, to give an idea:

"a hatchet work from beginning to end"

"cunningly calculated public smear-campaign but also a craftily contrived promotion of a bastardised variety of Spiritualism"

"the criticaster generally budges not one iota from their affectively-reactive and thus pathetically entrenched position"

"the above author’s one-eyed comeback"


Johannes ,

If you read the links you mention, you will find that Richard's response consists of factual statements replying to a deceitful attack from Gardol. Rather than acrimony, Richard provides a sensible response to hostility.

To take "some words from the prologue", without any context, is meaningless.


John

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/9/10 5:45 PM as a reply to Johannes Bugenhagen.
"a hatchet work from beginning to end"

"cunningly calculated public smear-campaign but also a craftily contrived promotion of a bastardised variety of Spiritualism"

"the criticaster generally budges not one iota from their affectively-reactive and thus pathetically entrenched position"

"the above author’s one-eyed comeback"


Here are some more choice epithets:

from http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/gardolcorrespondence/08How-I-Achieved-Actual-Freedom.htm#36

"a cheap-trickster, a sneaky-snipper, a sly-deceiver, an ignorant-judger, a molehill-mountaineer, a fraudulent-justifier, a mud-slinger, a bull-artist and spin-doctor all rolled into one"

A shining exhibition of a "personal peace on earth", one must say.


Richard is better than fuckin Shakespeare. Anyone who reads anger or indignation into his words is just uncool. Uncool.

And is a "criticaster."

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/9/10 5:46 PM as a reply to Johannes Bugenhagen.
Johannes Bugenhagen:
Here are some more choice epithets:

from http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/gardolcorrespondence/08How-I-Achieved-Actual-Freedom.htm#36

"a cheap-trickster, a sneaky-snipper, a sly-deceiver, an ignorant-judger, a molehill-mountaineer, a fraudulent-justifier, a mud-slinger, a bull-artist and spin-doctor all rolled into one"

A shining exhibition of a "personal peace on earth", one must say.

Johannes

Certainly a chosen collection of words by you, but words out of context exhibit nothing-at-all.

I think you confuse peace with pacifism, or turing the other cheek.

John

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/9/10 6:05 PM as a reply to rich s.


Richard is better than fuckin Shakespeare. Anyone who reads anger or indignation into his words is just uncool. Uncool.

And is a "criticaster."



LOL emoticon

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/9/10 8:32 PM as a reply to John Mitchell.
John Mitchell:
Johannes Bugenhagen:
Here are some more choice epithets:

from http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/gardolcorrespondence/08How-I-Achieved-Actual-Freedom.htm#36

"a cheap-trickster, a sneaky-snipper, a sly-deceiver, an ignorant-judger, a molehill-mountaineer, a fraudulent-justifier, a mud-slinger, a bull-artist and spin-doctor all rolled into one"

A shining exhibition of a "personal peace on earth", one must say.

Johannes

Certainly a chosen collection of words by you, but words out of context exhibit nothing-at-all.

I think you confuse peace with pacifism, or turing the other cheek.

John


Everything is contextual and any set of words, unless it be the full tome of an author, is a chosen collection.

In the end it is whether Gardol's post and Richard's response says something about Richard, and I think it clearly does.

He may be a weird old man, but he ain't "free of the human condition", no Sir, and I wish more people saw a duck for a duck.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/9/10 8:36 PM as a reply to John Mitchell.
John Mitchell:
Johannes Bugenhagen:
Here are some more choice epithets:

from http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/gardolcorrespondence/08How-I-Achieved-Actual-Freedom.htm#36

"a cheap-trickster, a sneaky-snipper, a sly-deceiver, an ignorant-judger, a molehill-mountaineer, a fraudulent-justifier, a mud-slinger, a bull-artist and spin-doctor all rolled into one"

A shining exhibition of a "personal peace on earth", one must say.

Johannes

Certainly a chosen collection of words by you, but words out of context exhibit nothing-at-all.

I think you confuse peace with pacifism, or turing the other cheek.

John


About turning the other cheek, I think Richard is the one engaging in hostility and a smear-campaign, in the garb of his "reply". He could have defended himself without using hundreds of adjectives and epithets for Gardol Yack, who seems to be (from his post and writing) enjoying life far more than Richard.

It is not simply not turning the other cheek, it is more like beating and kicking someone who brushed against you in the market to a pulp, till you can kick no more.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/10/10 5:26 AM as a reply to Johannes Bugenhagen.
Johannes Bugenhagen:

Everything is contextual and any set of words, unless it be the full tome of an author, is a chosen collection.

In the end it is whether Gardol's post and Richard's response says something about Richard, and I think it clearly does.

He may be a weird old man, but he ain't "free of the human condition", no Sir, and I wish more people saw a duck for a duck.


But nothing you quote is in context!!

To be clearer then, you choose a set of words that you say are an inappropriate response to Gardol. For them to be inappropriate these words would need to be factually incorrect. If you wish to show them to be factually incorrect, you need to demonstrate this in context.

By taking a large collection of words that appear to support your agenda, you are trying to sway the reader by saturation, thinking that if you string enough words together that appear to support you, you will have established a valid position.

If you are interested in making a valid point, then show a reasoned argument.

Ducks are indeed easily seen as ducks; I spent some considerable time actually reading the AF website, looking for the flaw(s) in what Richard & others had written, and I concluded there were no flaws, and AF is worth pursuing; so no ducks were found. Trolls are seen as trolls, and numerous trolls revealed, by their language.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/10/10 7:43 AM as a reply to John Mitchell.
I rest my case.

John Mitchell:
Johannes Bugenhagen:

Everything is contextual and any set of words, unless it be the full tome of an author, is a chosen collection.

In the end it is whether Gardol's post and Richard's response says something about Richard, and I think it clearly does.

He may be a weird old man, but he ain't "free of the human condition", no Sir, and I wish more people saw a duck for a duck.


But nothing you quote is in context!!

To be clearer then, you choose a set of words that you say are an inappropriate response to Gardol. For them to be inappropriate these words would need to be factually incorrect. If you wish to show them to be factually incorrect, you need to demonstrate this in context.

By taking a large collection of words that appear to support your agenda, you are trying to sway the reader by saturation, thinking that if you string enough words together that appear to support you, you will have established a valid position.

If you are interested in making a valid point, then show a reasoned argument.

Ducks are indeed easily seen as ducks; I spent some considerable time actually reading the AF website, looking for the flaw(s) in what Richard & others had written, and I concluded there were no flaws, and AF is worth pursuing; so no ducks were found. Trolls are seen as trolls, and numerous trolls revealed, by their language.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/26/10 1:44 AM as a reply to Johannes Bugenhagen.
johannes, craig, john, and rich,

as it is stated in the very first paragraph on this site's front page[1]:


The Dharma Overground is a ... place where everything related to the support of practice may flourish, including where to go on retreats, what techniques may lead to what, an in depth look at the maps of possible states and stages, discussions about how to determine what experience was what, and in general anything that has to do with actually practicing rather than what typically occurs in standard meditation circles.

...please keep your contributions in accordance with the dho site guidelines.

the yahoo 'actualist freedom' group/mailing list, on the other hand, has no such guidelines (the group is described, on its front page, as being 'for General Discussion about Actual Freedom..'), and so would serve as a better place to explore the non-practice-related issues which have been brought up and perpetuated in this thread. if you would like to carry on with these discussions, please take them there.

tarin
site mod

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/10/10 10:13 AM as a reply to tarin greco.
Well, if one goes by the site guidelines, then any discussion about Actualism do not belong here at all.

From: http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/faqs


What traditions are welcome here?

Basically any that promote basic meditation and spiritual achievement.


From http://www.actualfreedom.com.au


A New and Non-Spiritual Down-to-Earth Freedom


tarin greco:
johannes, craig, john, and rich,

as it is stated in the very first paragraph on this site's front page[2]:


The Dharma Overground is a ... place where everything related to the support of practice may flourish, including where to go on retreats, what techniques may lead to what, an in depth look at the maps of possible states and stages, discussions about how to determine what experience was what, and in general anything that has to do with actually practicing rather than what typically occurs in standard meditation circles.

...please keep your contributions in accordance with the dho site guidelines.

the yahoo 'actualist freedom' group/mailing list, on the other hand, has no such guidelines (the group is described, on its front page, as being 'for General Discussion about Actual Freedom..'), and so would serve as a better place to explore the non-practice-related issues which have been brought up and perpetuated in this thread. if you would like to carry on with these discussions, please take them there.

tarin
site mod

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/10/10 4:17 PM as a reply to Johannes Bugenhagen.
Johannes Bugenhagen:
Well, if one goes by the site guidelines, then any discussion about Actualism do not belong here at all.

From: http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/faqs


What traditions are welcome here?

Basically any that promote basic meditation and spiritual achievement.


From http://www.actualfreedom.com.au


A New and Non-Spiritual Down-to-Earth Freedom



Yeah I wonder about that. I think by 'non-spiritual', from the little i've read on the AF site, they mean 'non-ascetic'. lots of the stuff there that they say is just being free of the human condition / not spiritual is somewhat in alignment to what is laid out in some Buddhist sutras/MCTB.

Even stuff like "All spiritual ideals, beliefs and notions must be investigated and eradicated in order to become actually free of the Human Condition." (from http://actualfreedom.com.au/actualism/path2.htm ) applies to Buddhism, which says that all conceptions about Buddhism have to be dropped before one can be Enlightened.

So I'm not so sure it is really non-spiritual, as defined by DhO, meaning that it does belong here, regardless of how AF describes itself.

But I also don't know what I'm talking about =).

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/10/10 6:56 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Beo Beoman:
Johannes Bugenhagen:
Well, if one goes by the site guidelines, then any discussion about Actualism do not belong here at all.

From: http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/faqs


What traditions are welcome here?

Basically any that promote basic meditation and spiritual achievement.


From http://www.actualfreedom.com.au


A New and Non-Spiritual Down-to-Earth Freedom



Yeah I wonder about that. I think by 'non-spiritual', from the little i've read on the AF site, they mean 'non-ascetic'. lots of the stuff there that they say is just being free of the human condition / not spiritual is somewhat in alignment to what is laid out in some Buddhist sutras/MCTB.

Even stuff like "All spiritual ideals, beliefs and notions must be investigated and eradicated in order to become actually free of the Human Condition." (from http://actualfreedom.com.au/actualism/path2.htm ) applies to Buddhism, which says that all conceptions about Buddhism have to be dropped before one can be Enlightened.

So I'm not so sure it is really non-spiritual, as defined by DhO, meaning that it does belong here, regardless of how AF describes itself.

But I also don't know what I'm talking about =).



Perhaps all "views" must be dropped to end conceit. To be conceit free , one needs to end the self-contraction. And "view" is very much a part of self-contraction. I'd rather see it from a Buddhist perspective. I aim for the conceit free arhat of the pali canon. It has a better ring to it. ;)

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
11/23/10 4:11 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Hi Nikolai,

Is there any substantial evidence that the Arahat of the Pali Canon is both a actual condition and one that is repeatable? Does this condition (the Arahat) leave one with no attention wave, no passions/emotions/feelings, no sense of being/Being whatsoever and are there detailed modern reports of such. Also, are any of the reports involving people that can currently be communicated with? I would be very happy to hear of any of the above.

As I see it currently, there are only two known clear and reproducible paths to the ending of being: 1) via enlightenment and then the practice of actualism(Trent, Tarin, Christian, Justine and maybe Jeff for example) and 2) the direct route of going from "normal" to virtual freedom to the ending of being(Peter, Vineeto, Tom, Pamala). I'm not sure what category to put Stefanie's in but whatever the case she did stop meditating to practice actualism whole-heartedly on her way to an actual freedom.

It just seems to me that there is a rather amazing opportunity right now to converse directly with some people that have actually done this and that is more important than our preferences of terminology. I'd certainly be all ears to what you(or anyone) would have to say if you came to the ending of being in toto. In fact, I wish you godspeed. :-)

Aaron

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/23/10 6:34 AM as a reply to aaron ..
http://www.gurusfeet.com/blog/why-it-so-hard-us-accept-emotions-are-just-body-sensations

"then emotions die and with them go shames and disgraces."

"Yes, I still demonstrate what appears to be emotions but it is only an act, for the most parts, allowing me to be able to identify with other people. If I never showed emotions people would shy away from me, so, to be able to at least hold them while conversing I demonstrate the appearance of emotions."

Elijah "Natureboy" destroyed emotions without using AF methods.


Further Ven. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is saying: If everyone practises the path of compassion and wisdom, all their problems will be solved and never arise again. I guarantee this.

http://modernbuddhism.co.uk/ModernBuddhism/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=54

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/23/10 6:50 AM as a reply to Change A..
I have found another person (Tarthang Tulku) who is saying "It is possible to experience ecstatic beauty at every moment of our lives, as if we were forever hearing beautiful music or gazing upon the finest works of art."

From http://www.healthtourismmagazine.com/article-detail.php?issue=issue-4&article=energetic-healing

Actual Freedom is not the only one promising goodies but it is the only one beating the drums.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/23/10 8:49 AM as a reply to Change A..
Can you tell us something about what you do for daily practice? And more importantly, does it work? Are you free from suffering?

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/24/10 1:14 AM as a reply to Pål S..
Paul S.:
Can you tell us something about what you do for daily practice? And more importantly, does it work? Are you free from suffering?


I have done visualization of Tibetan deities, exercises in the book Time, Space and Knowledge and currently doing kum-nye massage. It does work and I'm considerably free from suffering which makes me believe the claims of the people mentioned in my previous post.

I had previously tried AF as well. It is a dreamland. Mind starts to mimic what it has been fed i.e. if you are reading about AF, mind starts to make you dream of AF while awake. One example of this happening to a group of people is that when a program about UFOs was shown on television, next day people started to claim that they have seen a UFO. The same is true for the people who claim to have attained actual freedom. Their minds have been infected with the AF meme.

Daniel Ingram used to claim that he is having PCEs lasting few hours. But later he realized that it wasn`t so. Trent also had similar notions about PCEs. But Trent didn`t do anything about it and he became `actually free`.

One thing to know about Richard is that he is a budding author. AF is his work of fiction presented as reality. When I asked him if he is an author, he denied it. Very soon he let everyone know his plans to write a novel. He also claims to have nothing to defend but when it comes to the AF sand castle that he built, even a small thing against it would elicit a huge response from him (one has to defend a sand castle tooth and nail if it has to be kept intact). Same is true for those who get bitten by the AF bug trying to free themselves of suffering in toto. They will try anything to keep observations which go against AF to be out of sight.

People who are interested in AF have similar psychology. They want to make it big. Richard talks of himself as a mere boy from the farm before AF. After AF, he presents himself as the first human to have achieved this feat. It is their ego that helps them keep the sand castle intact. It is an ego that knows no bounds in the history of humans and yet it claims to have no ego, no identity at all.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/24/10 7:18 AM as a reply to Change A..
Aman A.:

People who are interested in AF have similar psychology. They want to make it big. Richard talks of himself as a mere boy from the farm before AF. After AF, he presents himself as the first human to have achieved this feat. It is their ego that helps them keep the sand castle intact. It is an ego that knows no bounds in the history of humans and yet it claims to have no ego, no identity at all.



Äh how many people do you know personally who went to AF ? Just curious.You seem to know a lot about their "psyche" before going to AF.
Beeing effortlessly happy and harmless 24/7 and beeing totally free from suffering is indeed "making it big" ! And if you dont want that "making it big"/ " beeing free from suffering" you wont indeed get "free from suffering"/"making it big". Term for this is pure intent. Whats your intent for practice ? Have you started a practice thread ?

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/24/10 5:55 AM as a reply to Change A..
Aman A,

Perhaps you would do better to join a forum that supports you in your chosen direction. I believe the Actualism / Actual Freedom forum operates for people who have a genuine interest in Actual Freedom.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/24/10 7:13 AM as a reply to Change A..
Aman A.:

Daniel Ingram used to claim that he is having PCEs lasting few hours. But later he realized that it wasn`t so.


can you elaborate? when did he realize it wasn't so and where did he say that?

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/24/10 8:15 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Beo Beoman:
can you elaborate? when did he realize it wasn't so and where did he say that?


From http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1078358

"1) As I look more carefully at the PCE, I begin to wonder how long it lasts in what I would call its "pure form", and I currently think that it must be less than a second before subtle feelings of being arise. Again, exactly where it ends is tricky, when it transitions to an EE or fades entirely is hard to determine until some clearly coarse feeling arises, but I am wondering if what I have previously though of as PCE's were substantially more tainted than I previously thought. While this at once feels like a sign of progress, it also feeling like falling back, as previously it would seem that PCE's could last for some longer period of time, and now they seem subtly flawed in some way even from the near beginning.

.....................

3) Related to this is the fact that the mind is a fantastic mimic and capable of producing images and sensations that themselves are clearly designed to be mimics of every positive concept and hint regarding AF and can do so with lightening speed. Distinguishing this from the ordinary discriminating faculty of mind itself is again bedeviling at a microscopic and macroscopic level in a way that I didn't notice before. It seems that following each instant of anything and everything direct is the imagination grabbing and manufacturing some imitation of it, almost seeming like an attempt to perpetuate the problem for reasons unknown, habit? fascination?, I have no idea. Obviously the bedevilment is part of the problem also, as the PCE shows that this is all just illusory conflict, and yet, as the PCE itself seems to be less of what I thought it was, the whole thing comes into question again. While PCE's, however long they actually last, are still great, at this point it seems only AF will do, and it must be substantially different in some ways."

AF makes people believe a lot of things which aren't so. Apparently this is applicable to meditation as well. Some start to claim themselves as arahats, anagamis, enlightened. My intent is to know how the mind works and thus know myself. Therefore, I generally don't fall for the traps. Though I had my share of AF's universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being experience, it didn't stick. I could realize very early on that it is my mind which is mimicking which Daniel also realized. Trent realized that as well but didn't do anything about it and gained "Actual Freedom". If I hadn't done anything about the mimicking, it could have stuck with me permanently and I would have gained "Actual Freedom". What helped me is the fact that I had seen "Jesus" while doing meditation. So I knew beforehand the tricks that mind plays.

There are many people who claim to see UFOs after watching television. I am sure that there will be many people who will gain "Actual Freedom" as well.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/24/10 8:33 AM as a reply to Change A..
Ah yes I remember that now. I haven't seen any more recent news about Daniel's AF practice so I wonder how that's working out now.

You make it sound like 1) people accidentally get stuck in the Actually Free state, and 2) that it's a bad thing. What gives you that impression?

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/24/10 9:02 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Beo Beoman:
Ah yes I remember that now. I haven't seen any more recent news about Daniel's AF practice so I wonder how that's working out now.

You make it sound like 1) people accidentally get stuck in the Actually Free state, and 2) that it's a bad thing. What gives you that impression?


Because subjective experience doesn't always portray the truth, I don't believe in it. I'm sure that people claiming Actual Freedom actually experience it to be so but that doesn't mean that it is real. Would you consider something that is false to be a good thing? I didn't like the universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being once I knew that it was a dream. Actually, I couldn't stay in it even if I had liked it to be so. I think it depends on a persons disposition. I don`t consider anything to be good or bad, it is the thinking which makes it so.

Now there is a way to objectively prove a part of the AF claims. As AF is supposed to eliminate all suffering, it should reduce (maybe eliminate) stress and so the level of cortisol (stress hormone) should be much below the average level.

From http://www.news-medical.net/news/20100903/Researchers-find-hair-cortisol-level-can-assess-chronic-stress-in-heart-attack.aspx

"We know that on average, hair grows one centimetre (cm) a month, and so if we take a hair sample six cm long, we can determine stress levels for six months by measuring the cortisol level in the hair."

If the cortisol level of an AF person is measured through the above method, then it should show a considerable decrease in cortisol level post AF. Can any one of the AF claimants take the challenge? If I use the past experience to predict the future, I will say that AF claimants will come up with weird excuses and not agree to it.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/24/10 10:33 AM as a reply to Change A..
Considering Richard claims to have not experienced any negative (or positive(?)) emotions for the past 17 years, along with claims from others who have attained AF that they have similarly not experienced any negative emotions since their Freedom, I expect their cortisol levels would be quite low. Don't be surprised if they don't take the challenge just to prove you wrong, though.

As to your other claim, ultimately everything is subjective as it is experienced through our senses. Working only with that, we might as well strive for states that are as free of suffering as possible. AF sounds like the most suffering-free state, currently - even beyond the MCTB Arahat, according to Tarin and Trent, and the glimpses Daniel has seen.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/24/10 1:10 PM as a reply to Change A..
Aman:

AF makes people believe a lot of things which aren't so.


Could you please provide even a single example to substantiate this claim?

Aman:

Though I had my share of AF's universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being experience, it didn't stick. I could realize very early on that it is my mind which is mimicking which Daniel also realized.


Well, all of us have a share of "the universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being," Aman, since that's what is actually happening. You are a human being, you are part of the universe, you are, through your senses, experiencing stuff that's also part of the universe, hence, the universe experiencing the universe as a sensate human being.

I suggest, as a speculation only, that you didn't get a PCE at all, but instead got a different experience. Put your own "I generally don't fall for traps" attitude aside, and consider this possibility:

Maybe your practice of visualizing Tibetan deities caused you to have a very well developed concentration, a very good ability to visualize stuff, and when you started trying to have a PCE, you inadvertently started visualizing what that would be like, hence mimicking, rather than experiencing, a PCE.

Do you think that is possible? Could you otherwise expand on what exactly was your mind mimicking? What in the days you practiced actualism was felt as a mimicking?

This speculative possibility would certainly explain the following sentence of yours:

I didn't like the universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being once I knew that it was a dream.


Since you are so obviously a sensate human being experiencing the universe, I am not sure exactly how you have concluded that this very obviously factual fact is for some reason a dream. Are you perchance not human? Not part of the universe? Not in the universe experiencing it? Of course not...

Maybe it was because of using a different function of your brain while aiming to have a PCE? A PCE certainly doesn't feel like a dream at all, quite the opposite, one is wide awake and alert.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/24/10 4:00 PM as a reply to Change A..
Aman A.:

Daniel Ingram used to claim that he is having PCEs lasting few hours. But later he realized that it wasn`t so.


While I can easily see why you interpreted my statements that way, I think that the reverse is true: noticing that the PCE is not AF, and noticing the subtle ways that the PCE contains something in the background that is not as perfectly clean as most of the PCE would have you believe, these are insights into something valid and important.

As the PCE is not it, though gives a lot of hints about what it might be like, this allows one to use the PCE in a beneficial way and use that place of clarity to see those things one usually doesn't see with that level of pristine clarity and also avoid looking to the PCE as the be all and end all experience mode, which it is not, and in this way incline more completely to AF.

I am sorry that your AF practice didn't produce the effects you were after, but for me and for the moment I believe that I am benefitting from that perspective and consider it worthwhile, and I hope that you manage to find and successfully practice something that provides what you are looking for.

Daniel

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/25/10 6:59 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:


Could you please provide even a single example to substantiate this claim?

Well, all of us have a share of "the universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being," Aman, since that's what is actually happening. You are a human being, you are part of the universe, you are, through your senses, experiencing stuff that's also part of the universe, hence, the universe experiencing the universe as a sensate human being.


From: http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedwriting/sw-universe.htm

"One can realise that one is the universe experiencing itself as a sensate and reflective human being."

You said "the universe experiencing the universe as a sensate human being."

As a sensate human being (just this flesh and blood body), I'm not the whole universe. Hence I can't experience the universe. I can only experience very limited part of the universe (limits being imposed by the senses) Certainly, the whole universe isn't sensate. So how can the universe experience the universe as a sensate human being? Instead of body experiencing a part of the universe, AF says it is the universe experiencing itself as a sensate and reflective human being. That would be 180 degree opposite view to the body experiencing the universe. I guess you are aware that just this flesh and blood body isn't the whole universe. How and when does a small body acquire the dimensions of the universe? And how does the view turns 180 degree from body experiencing universe to universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being?

On the one hand, AF says that one is just this flesh and blood body. On the other hand, it equates the universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being. How are these two views compatible?

Regarding your speculation about PCE and Tibetan deity visualization, I started the visualization after letting go of AF practice. What it did was that it opened up the subconscious mind and I could see what was going in there that was causing me suffering. This along with Kum-Nye exercises and other exercises in Time, Space and Knowledge helped me uncover a range of feelings and emotions which could have never been uncovered with HAIETMOBA. Most of the psyche gets well illuminated whereas HAIETMOBA is very limited in its scope for unearthing what goes on inside the subconscious. This is the reason why AF practice didn`t help me. In terms of capacity to experiencing the subconscious, tantra comes second, first is aghora. AF just utilizes second hand information, not first hand experience of the subconscious as tantra and aghora do. If you practice tantra or aghora, you will realize this. For this reason also, AF cant produce the results which tantra and aghora can. AF people may keep on claiming whatever without ever practicing either tantra or aghora.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/25/10 7:16 AM as a reply to Change A..
Aman A.:


As a sensate human being (just this flesh and blood body), I'm not the whole universe. Hence I can't experience the universe. I can only experience very limited part of the universe (limits being imposed by the senses)


So what you are saying is that: "being the universe experiencing the whole universe" is a dream/untruthful/a fantasy? I agree completely.

Notice however, that if you eat a slice of cake, you are experiencing the cake, you don't have to eat the whole cake. In a similar fashion, you can realize that you are "the universe experiencing part of itself as a human being," and that is what is meant by the sentence "one is the universe experiencing itself as a sensate and reflective human being."

Did you, by any chance, when practicing a PCE, had the sensation that you where the universe experiencing the whole universe? If you did, this was your imagination playing tricks on you, it wasn't a PCE at all.

Maybe you can take your new-found insights on your own subconscious and try again... Whatever you do, I hope you "make it big" emoticon

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/25/10 8:36 AM as a reply to Change A..
Aman A.:

You said "the universe experiencing the universe as a sensate human being."

As a sensate human being (just this flesh and blood body), I'm not the whole universe. Hence I can't experience the universe. I can only experience very limited part of the universe (limits being imposed by the senses) Certainly, the whole universe isn't sensate. So how can the universe experience the universe as a sensate human being?


Hi Aman,

Nowhere on that page you cite does the word 'whole' appear.

From what you said it seems that you would say I haven't experienced food because I haven't experienced all food?

I don't see anything untrue in the idea that humans being conscious means the universe is technically experiencing itself. It's the same as how the universe is eating itself, decaying itself, fusing with itself, playing scrabble with itself. You can argue that it's a pointless truism to say things like that, but I don't see how it's untrue.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/25/10 8:01 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Is matter conscious? Are you conscious of the carbon present in your body? If you are conscious of the carbon present in your body, then you can say that the carbon present in the universe is experiencing itself as a sensate human being. If not, then what you have said above is not valid.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/25/10 8:16 PM as a reply to Nad A..
Nad A.:


I don't see anything untrue in the idea that humans being conscious means the universe is technically experiencing itself. It's the same as how the universe is eating itself, decaying itself, fusing with itself, playing scrabble with itself. You can argue that it's a pointless truism to say things like that, but I don't see how it's untrue.


Nowhere on that page that I cited the word 'technically' appears. There is a difference between technically coming to a conclusion that you are made of the same matter that the universe is made of (which I am aware of) and to realise it yourself (which I don't realise as for example I can't experience the carbon within myself).

Then there is the following line from the same page: This universe is infinite – it has no beginning and no end – it has always been and always will be here … now.

This shows the altered state of consciousness which AF is. The best part of AF which is no longer available was the claim of a mutation in the brain stem.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/25/10 9:30 PM as a reply to Change A..
How did you achieve your 'PCE'?

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/25/10 9:38 PM as a reply to Change A..
Aman A.:
There is a difference between technically coming to a conclusion that you are made of the same matter that the universe is made of (which I am aware of) and to realise it yourself (which I don't realise as for example I can't experience the carbon within myself).


Yes there is a difference between noticing that a conscious human is an example of the universe experiencing itself and having a consciousness-altering realisation related to same. I don't follow your carbon example though - I don't know why you'd need to experience the carbon within yourself.

The way I see it, the first life-form in the universe that could perceive was an example of the universe perceiving itself (as that life-form). You don't see it that way?

I add the word 'technically' because outside of the actualist context, it would be pointless tautology that the life-form was the universe experiencing itself.

Only if that life-form evolves passions which create an overlaying metaphysical identity might it become relevant to talk in terms of the universe experiencing itself as that life-form versus a metaphysical entity experiencing the universe.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/26/10 12:37 AM as a reply to Nad A..
Nad A.:
Yes there is a difference between noticing that a conscious human is an example of the universe experiencing itself and having a consciousness-altering realisation related to same. I don't follow your carbon example though - I don't know why you'd need to experience the carbon within yourself.


From: http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedwriting/sw-universe.htm

"One can realise that one is the universe experiencing itself as a sensate and reflective human being."

In AF, one has to 'realise' instead of 'notice' that one is the universe experiencing itself as a sensate and reflective human being. I gave the carbon example to show the difference between realising and noticing. As a conscious human, one can notice that carbon present in humans is the same as carbon present in the universe but to realise it, one has to be consciously aware of the physical constituents (say carbon) of human body and only then can one say that it is the universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being.

Nad A.:
The way I see it, the first life-form in the universe that could perceive was an example of the universe perceiving itself (as that life-form). You don't see it that way?

I add the word 'technically' because outside of the actualist context, it would be pointless tautology that the life-form was the universe experiencing itself.

Only if that life-form evolves passions which create an overlaying metaphysical identity might it become relevant to talk in terms of the universe experiencing itself as that life-form versus a metaphysical entity experiencing the universe.


The first life-form was not aware of itself. It is only the highest life forms which are conscious of being conscious. Are you suggesting a fundamental link between consciousness and matter? That when life-form evolves passions, that link gets broken and what AF does is that it restores that link? Restoring in a way similar to what yoga is supposed to do, yoking body and mind, mind and matter or consciousness and matter and it yokes in such a fundamental way that one could say that it is universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being?

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/26/10 12:53 AM as a reply to Jason Lissel.
Jason L:
How did you achieve your 'PCE'?


By doing what an AF practitioner is supposed to do. But I realised that it is a dream world just like you did.

See: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1116410

Whereas I stopped running after the AF carrot, you still are because it is hard to let go of desire even if one realises at one point that it is a dream. One can fall for it again.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/26/10 1:57 AM as a reply to Change A..
aman,

as it is stated in the very first paragraph on this site's front page:
The Dharma Overground is a ... place where everything related to the support of practice may flourish, including where to go on retreats, what techniques may lead to what, an in depth look at the maps of possible states and stages, discussions about how to determine what experience was what, and in general anything that has to do with actually practicing rather than what typically occurs in standard meditation circles.

...please keep your contributions in accordance with the dho site guidelines.

the yahoo 'actualist freedom' group/mailing list, on the other hand, has no such guidelines (the group is described, on its front page, as being 'for General Discussion about Actual Freedom..'), and so would serve as a better place to explore the non-practice-related issues which have been brought up and perpetuated in this thread. if you would like to carry on with these discussions, please take them there.

tarin
site mod

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/26/10 2:25 AM as a reply to tarin greco.
tarin greco:
aman,

as it is stated in the very first paragraph on this site's front page:
The Dharma Overground is a ... place where everything related to the support of practice may flourish, including where to go on retreats, what techniques may lead to what, an in depth look at the maps of possible states and stages, discussions about how to determine what experience was what, and in general anything that has to do with actually practicing rather than what typically occurs in standard meditation circles.

...please keep your contributions in accordance with the dho site guidelines.

the yahoo 'actualist freedom' group/mailing list, on the other hand, has no such guidelines (the group is described, on its front page, as being 'for General Discussion about Actual Freedom..'), and so would serve as a better place to explore the non-practice-related issues which have been brought up and perpetuated in this thread. if you would like to carry on with these discussions, please take them there.

tarin
site mod


Hello Tarin,

Practice will get supported if the doubts that a person has get cleared. I have some doubts and those are reflected in my posts.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/26/10 3:10 AM as a reply to Change A..
Aman A.:
Jason L:
How did you achieve your 'PCE'?


By doing what an AF practitioner is supposed to do. But I realised that it is a dream world just like you did.

See: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1116410

Whereas I stopped running after the AF carrot, you still are because it is hard to let go of desire even if one realises at one point that it is a dream. One can fall for it again.


What I experienced back then wasn't a PCE. I'm still interested in experiencing a full on PCE so I can decide for myself the facticity of AF. What I did back then was kind of meditative and forced, and that's likely why I experienced a dissociated state. If you just did what I did, then you may not have experienced a PCE, just an ASC.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/26/10 3:52 AM as a reply to Jason Lissel.
Jason L:

What I experienced back then wasn't a PCE. I'm still interested in experiencing a full on PCE so I can decide for myself the facticity of AF. What I did back then was kind of meditative and forced, and that's likely why I experienced a dissociated state. If you just did what I did, then you may not have experienced a PCE, just an ASC.


What are you doing differently now so that you don't get into an ASC again? Are you always able to find out the reason of why you start to feel bad sometimes? Is there always a reason? Are there some times when there is absolutely nothing that happened but your mood still gets bad? What you do during those times when you don't find an answer? Are you aware of the mimicking capabilities of your mind? It helps if you can become aware of your dreams while asleep to know if you are dreaming while awake. This helps to trace back the origins of your experience back to the source, whether it is genuine or it is just mimicking having read it somewhere or heard from someone etc.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/26/10 5:36 AM as a reply to Change A..
I've had an EE that was triggered after reading Tarin once saying the phrase "world experiencing itself". It was just like my other EEs. Very happy, sensate and light. I felt like a more simple 'empty' human. Like human life experiencing itself rather than a 'being' experiencing human life. Is that the kind of experience you had?

With that kind of experience, there's always the possibility that I simply imagined my way into feeling that good by imagining (deluding myself) that I was the world experiencing itself. I can't be sure either way.

But my PCE was altogether more extreme. Like LSD to the EE's marijuana. I would be amazed if some mental gymnastics could ever produce such an extreme experience as my PCE out of nothing. I hadn't heard of AF, didn't know anything about 'enlightenment' experiences at the time.

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/26/10 9:26 AM as a reply to Change A..
Aman A.:
tarin greco:
aman,

as it is stated in the very first paragraph on this site's front page:
The Dharma Overground is a ... place where everything related to the support of practice may flourish, including where to go on retreats, what techniques may lead to what, an in depth look at the maps of possible states and stages, discussions about how to determine what experience was what, and in general anything that has to do with actually practicing rather than what typically occurs in standard meditation circles.

...please keep your contributions in accordance with the dho site guidelines.

the yahoo 'actualist freedom' group/mailing list, on the other hand, has no such guidelines (the group is described, on its front page, as being 'for General Discussion about Actual Freedom..'), and so would serve as a better place to explore the non-practice-related issues which have been brought up and perpetuated in this thread. if you would like to carry on with these discussions, please take them there.

tarin
site mod


Hello Tarin,

Practice will get supported if the doubts that a person has get cleared. I have some doubts and those are reflected in my posts.


no, what you have are grievances and gripes, which you have already demonstrated clearly in your posts in this thread[1], elsewhere on this forum[2], and on the yahoo 'actual freedom' mailing list[3].

now, as by the 19th of november last year (2009), you had written to that mailing list (posting under the names 'infiniti_zero_0' and 'Zero Infinity') a whopping 479 emails over the course of 35 days (equivalent to about 14 emails a day), you have also already demonstrated a capacity for writing (mostly) bickering and argumentative, non-practice-related, missives at a near-manic rate, and have demonstrated a willingness to flood a discussion group with them.

it goes without saying that i have no wish for you to similarly flood (and derail) the discussion on, and dilute the focus of, this (practice-oriented) forum. as the majority of your contributions here (72 posts to date) have not been in accordance with the site guidelines, i will ask you once again: please discontinue non-practice-related postings to the dho.

as a suggestion only: as your practical interests now lay in tantric practices (tibetan deity visualisations, aghora, kum nye), perhaps you would be interested in starting a thread on your experiences with those practices in the vajrayana/tantra section of the forums.

tarin
site moderator

[1] for instance:

'Actual Freedom is not the only one promising goodies but it is the only one beating the drums.' (http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1240072#_19_message_1382102)

'AF is [Richard's] work of fiction presented as reality.' (http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1240072#_19_message_1392790)

'AF just utilizes second hand information, not first hand experience of the subconscious as tantra and aghora do. If you practice tantra or aghora, you will realize this. For this reason also, AF cant produce the results which tantra and aghora can. AF people may keep on claiming whatever without ever practicing either tantra or aghora.' (http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1240072#_19_message_1401692)

[2] for instance:

'[...] after getting out of the trap of spirituality one lands in the trap of AF.' (http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/684357#_19_message_718309)

'[...] your response is typical of Actualists. When someone questions them, they start to portray them as foolish and don't see the foolishness of themselves and consider themselves as knowing better than anyone else that has previously existed on earth.' (http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/505447#_19_message_550406)

'[...] Actualism is another belief system which inculcates the above experiences into the brain. It is a meme that infects the brain.' (http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/505447#_19_message_550406)

[3] (where to even begin?)

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/26/10 11:25 PM as a reply to tarin greco.
tarin greco:

no, what you have are grievances and gripes, which you have already demonstrated clearly in your posts in this thread[1], elsewhere on this forum[2], and on the yahoo 'actual freedom' mailing list[3].

now, as by the 19th of november last year (2009), you had written to that mailing list (posting under the names 'infiniti_zero_0' and 'Zero Infinity') a whopping 479 emails over the course of 35 days (equivalent to about 14 emails a day), you have also already demonstrated a capacity for writing (mostly) bickering and argumentative, non-practice-related, missives at a near-manic rate, and have demonstrated a willingness to flood a discussion group with them.


You are overlooking one thing while mentioning my posts on yahoo list which is that I did start to 'practice' after I had aired what you see as grievances and gripes (which I see as doubts as it is doubts that give rise to posts whatever kind one may find them to be).

My posts will have benefit in the future for anyone who has doubts if my doubts get cleared. Less doubts means more chances of success. I hope you can see this with an actual caring outlook. If you still can't see it from a balanced outlook, can I suggest that a thread be created where people can post their doubts and hope to get an answer from an actually free person? You assumed that my interest lies in tantric practices but in reality, my interest lies only in cessation of suffering. Method to do it may be any, I am interested in more than one method at a time. My posts will be the same kind even if it was tantra forum or any other.

As an actually free person, can you please provide an answer to my following doubt: Copy pasting from my response to Nad above:

From: http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedwriting/sw-universe.htm

"One can realise that one is the universe experiencing itself as a sensate and reflective human being."

In AF, one has to 'realise' instead of 'notice' that one is the universe experiencing itself as a sensate and reflective human being. I gave the carbon example to show the difference between realising and noticing. As a conscious human, one can notice that carbon present in humans is the same as carbon present in the universe but to realise it, one has to be consciously aware of the physical constituents (say carbon) of human body and only then can one say that it is the universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being.

The first life-form was not aware of itself. It is only the highest life forms which are conscious of being conscious. Are you suggesting a fundamental link between consciousness and matter? That when life-form evolves passions, that link gets broken and what AF does is that it restores that link? Restoring in a way similar to what yoga is supposed to do, yoking body and mind, mind and matter or consciousness and matter and it yokes in such a fundamental way that one could say that it is universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being?

Another question that I would like to ask you is that were you able to find out the reason for not feeling good always or were there times when you didn't get an answer? What did you do during those times? What could be the reason as to why one starts to feel bad when there is absolutely nothing that happened to make one start to feel bad?

PS: From http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1188800

"3) The first two points being established, there will naturally be changes, phases of exploration, pulses of interest in various methods and traditions, experiments, failures, successes, orthodoxies that establish themselves, cults of personality, counter-orthodoxies and counter-cults that rebel against those, reformations, factions, fads, and fashions, confusion regarding message, messenger and mode of presentation, role reversals, miscommunications, misinterpretations, syntheses of previously disparate philosophies and theories, re-syntheses based on new information of variable quality, absorptions, incorporations, revisions, fusions, fractures, disruptions, setbacks, advancements, and all the other muck and genius that is simply par for the course in these most rarified, deep, profound, subtle, difficult and human endeavors.

4) People perennially want things to cling to: traditions, friends, communities, dogmas, fears, feelings, rivalries, cliques, religions, fantasies, dreams, boundaries, limitations, rules, taboos, and much, much more. When those change or shift, which is inevitable, this can cause contraction, bitterness, resentment, lashing out, bargaining, coercion, and a whole host of other reactions as they adjust to new circumstances and attempt to get their needs, however real or imagined, met by the external world."

Do you have a clinging to AF? Can you see my posts in terms of Daniel's vision of DhO point 3? Being a site moderator, can you keep a more open attitude?

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/27/10 12:54 AM as a reply to Change A..
Hi Aman,

About doubt - there's a difference between informing oneself and having other people do one's work. Bear with me for a moment:

You know this difference from other areas of your life. Remember how in school, we had to do our homework? Sometimes we got stuck on an exercise, and asking a fellow student would clear it up so we could continue? Remember how it was also possible to simply copy that other student's work (if they allowed it)? From one perspective or another, I'm sure you know that situation. That's the difference I'm talking about here.

When "practice" is mentioned here at the DhO, this word is used in a very similar sense as "homework" was used in school: we do the exercises. We run into some problem. We discuss the problem with fellow practitioners here, either openly in the forum, or over skype or mail or some other channel - or we meet up in person, if that is possible. Either way, by discussing this stuff, usually we are then able to resume our practice and move on. That's the attitude which makes DhO the useful, adventurous, wonderful resource it is.

I won't elaborate the parallel situation to copying down someone else's homework, but I'm sure you can imagine it.

Thank you for reading this far. To get back to your doubts about sentient carbon: when reading your posts, I get the impression that you are making a problem for yourself out of stuff that doesn't really arise in your practice yet. (In third class, I may have had my doubts about algebra, but my third class homework simply didn't involve algebra). One useful thing to do when some burning question arises is to ask oneself, how does this apply to my experience here and now? What is the perspective assumed by this question, and how does that perspective compare to my present perspective? What did I do or experience in my practice that let this question arise? To me, at least, this way of putting questions into perspective is helpful in distinguishing useful directions of inquiry from distractions. Maybe it's of use to you, too.

Cheers,
Florian (taking off his mod hat)

RE: How I Achieved Actual Freedom, by Gardol Yack
Answer
12/27/10 3:02 AM as a reply to Change A..
Aman A.:

Another question that I would like to ask you is that were you able to find out the reason for not feeling good always or were there times when you didn't get an answer? What did you do during those times? What could be the reason as to why one starts to feel bad when there is absolutely nothing that happened to make one start to feel bad?


To do the actualist method, I don't think we absolutely need to become aware of each trigger in order to get back to feeling good. We need to understand that both past and future do not actually exist in our experience of being alive, and that we can only experience the present moment. There's simply no getting away from it. The trickiest part for me is seeing things as silly, and the key seems to be this realisation that the past and future aren't actual, and that one is always here, now. Many feelings (all?) are attempts to experience/prevent future events, or escape/relive the past. I haven't quite got to being able to conclude that something is silly everytime, but feelings subside effortlessly for the most part.