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Inclusiveness vs. Detail

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Inclusiveness vs. Detail
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4/21/19 12:58 AM
When doing an insight practice after the mind has sped up and subtle impermanence is showing itself in each sense door, what are your thoughts on being very inclusive. It seems like as soon as you try to observe multiple phenomena or sense doors at the same time flickering will occur and detail is lost.

Do you push inclusiveness at the cost of detail? Where do returns diminish?

The more inclusive I get, the more "attention tension" occurs. Do you back off or just observe the tension?

There are brief states I get to where the tension drops away even though perception is very inclusive but they are unstable. Is this just a concentration or balancing of factors thing?

When I try to lock in and capture everything from visual, auditory and tactile sense doors, sometimes it feels like the loss of detail give it a jhanic feel. Like loss of tactile detail makes the vibrations feel more subtle or smooth. They are very pleasant and I loose it if I move. Am i just spinning up stories?

RE: Inclusiveness vs. Detail
Answer
4/21/19 3:01 AM as a reply to Jason Massie.
mmmm, tasty question with phenomenological details. Can't wait to hear responses from others. I just had a question of my own:

At the point when, as you say, the practice has "sped up" or somewhat established itself... Have you tried doing nothing? Like, not even trying to 'do nothing'? What are your reflections after the fact on how that affects details -vs- inclusiveness? 

Another way of putting it would be letting this whole mind - body phenomena do what it does.

RE: Inclusiveness vs. Detail
Answer
4/21/19 8:15 AM as a reply to Jason Massie.
Makes sense to me. I can relate to that. Especially: 

"It seems like as soon as you try to observe multiple phenomena or sense doors at the same time flickering will occur and detail is lost."

When I expand into panoramic mode, I'll often get these two or three quick pulses or flickering deep inside the head

Once we have penetrated the object (seen it's quick pulsing nature), it's time to explore a more panoramic type of awareness. I still feel like a todler learning to walk though in this panoramic style of practice. It's a more subtle type of work. Others here with more experience will certainly be able to help here with those questions.



RE: Inclusiveness vs. Detail
Answer
4/21/19 9:56 AM as a reply to Jason Massie.
It’s a good question and I do certainly not have a final answer to it. However, investigating those tensions is a valid practice that can yield a lot of insight. It may even allow the tensions to self-liberate, at least temporarily, if one is lucky. I’m pretty sure I have read in reliable sources that there are more than one valid option here. One can choose to focus on details or to be more inclusive and thus let go of details. I do not recall exactly where, though, so it is possible that my memory is faulty.

RE: Inclusiveness vs. Detail
Answer
4/23/19 10:35 PM as a reply to Daniel Jones.
Have you tried doing nothing? Like, not even trying to 'do nothing'? What are your reflections after the fact on how that affects details -vs- inclusiveness? :




Not specifically "do nothing". I have messed a lot with effort. Like reducing effort until I can feel the effort of reducing effort. Is there a way beyond that?

There have been other times where it feels like effort is holding everything together. I expect speed and detail to totally drop with effort but nothing changes. Most of the time concentration goes with dropping effort though.

I will look more at this idea. I have been exploring the sensations around the "doing" of the sense doors. This could go along with that.

RE: Inclusiveness vs. Detail
Answer
4/24/19 12:10 AM as a reply to Jason Massie.
If subtle impermanence is just starting to show itself, it is better to stay with a small sample set & really hone in on the subtlety.   Once the subtle impermanence has fully been absorbed & internalized, there will be a more even-keeled state - that would be the time to relax & go inclusive - even if it gets a little bit dull.

RE: Inclusiveness vs. Detail
Answer
4/24/19 6:07 AM as a reply to Noah D.
+1 to Noah

And this is probably obvious, but that phase where the mind seems to have sped up, the mind where imperminance seems to be the main flavor, where the mind can see one sense door at a time rather than more broadly, where the mind objects can become very subtle and non-distinct "vibrations"... all of this is the lead up to A&P. By going >into< that experience, the mind seems to speed up even more, mental vibrations become more pronounced, instability is more pronounced, rapture tends to increase, and there can be a A&P event that is described as mind-blowing (lots of rapture) or a very clean "mental reset" (mimicing a cessation). 

This phase of practice tends to have a feeling of excitement and danger, like you can't help but try to look into the nature of the imperminance, but also feel like things are sketchy and maybe out of control if you go in that direction.

And of course after the A&P there tends to be a crash, where practice isn't nearly as interesting and can still feel sketchy and out of control.

So classic pre-A&P jitters, is my wild guess. Just a hunch.

In general: this is a great time to make sure you have a teacher/spiritual friend to check in with. The potential for a dark night phase is there if you go through a major A&P. This is also the phase where "mindfulness" meditation transitions into something that looks more spiritual, and the sense of being a normal human can change. Lots of psychological and meditation insights tend to come, and a lot of personal growth happens. Unfortunately, there is no change/growth without work and discomfort.

RE: Inclusiveness vs. Detail
Answer
4/25/19 9:07 AM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
+1 to Noah

And this is probably obvious, but that phase where the mind seems to have sped up, the mind where imperminance seems to be the main flavor, where the mind can see one sense door at a time rather than more broadly, where the mind objects can become very subtle and non-distinct "vibrations"... all of this is the lead up to A&P. By going >into< that experience, the mind seems to speed up even more, mental vibrations become more pronounced, instability is more pronounced, rapture tends to increase, and there can be a A&P event that is described as mind-blowing (lots of rapture) or a very clean "mental reset" (mimicing a cessation). 
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I'm curious about this. I've experienced both of these ("mind-blowing events" and "mental resets"). What is the difference between a "mental reset" and a cessation? Is a cessation a specific type of A&P event?

RE: Inclusiveness vs. Detail
Answer
4/25/19 11:07 AM as a reply to spatial.
There seems to be people who have A&P events that are rather "clean". So classic rapture and seeing of rapid mind moments in the meditations preceeding the event, but the event itself can be more like a mental reset rather than a classic swirling vortex of orgasmic awesomeness that explodes.  So the "clean" version can easly be interpreted as a cessation, but it's likely not.

Regardless if the A&P event is orgasmic or clean, the main diagnostic is: if that person then goes into a dark night phase, it's likely A&P; if that person sits and immediately re-experiences the A&P/third vipassina jhana and has new found access to jhana, and cycles through the nanas quickly with a nice and fun overlay of jhana, then its likely SE.

RE: Inclusiveness vs. Detail
Answer
4/25/19 1:45 PM as a reply to shargrol.
Thankyou for clarifying that, Shargrol, and thankyou Spatial for asking! I have also been wondering about those A&P events that get mixed up with cessations. I have probably not had so clean A&P events.