Message Boards Message Boards

Kasinas

Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas?

Toggle
Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas? Siavash Mahmoudpour 5/6/19 5:18 AM
RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen? Anna L 5/5/19 7:18 PM
RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen? Siavash Mahmoudpour 5/5/19 8:31 PM
RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen? Siavash Mahmoudpour 5/27/19 3:35 PM
RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen? Siavash Mahmoudpour 5/6/19 6:13 AM
RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen? Anna L 5/6/19 5:29 PM
RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen? Siavash Mahmoudpour 5/6/19 6:13 PM
RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen? Anna L 5/9/19 8:41 PM
RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen? Siavash Mahmoudpour 5/9/19 9:06 PM
RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen? Siavash Mahmoudpour 5/15/19 8:02 AM
RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen? Siavash Mahmoudpour 5/14/19 7:28 AM
RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/15/19 12:27 AM
RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen? Siavash Mahmoudpour 5/15/19 2:51 AM
RE: Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/6/19 2:36 PM
RE: Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas? Siavash Mahmoudpour 5/6/19 3:00 PM
RE: Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/6/19 3:19 PM
RE: Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas? Siavash Mahmoudpour 5/6/19 3:32 PM
RE: Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/6/19 3:33 PM
RE: Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas? Siavash Mahmoudpour 5/6/19 3:35 PM
Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas?
stages kasina fire kasina
Answer
5/6/19 5:18 AM
Hi everyone.
I have a question about Fire Kasina.
Inspired by Michael Taft’s recent interview with Daniel, I started doing Fire Kasina with candle flame for my daily sits. It’s around 20-30 days I think now.

A little background:
It’s a little less than two years that I’ve started meditation, mostly with Shinzen’s techniques, and initially mostly with techniques for working with the mind, like See In Hear In Auto Think. Then near a year ago I switched to Culadasa’s system, and since then I practice a combination of these two systems.
I started with 10-30 minutes a day, and after a few months it became an hour or more, and now it’s 1-2 hours daily with some practice in life. And I didn't have any retreats except or two tims that I did Shinzen's Home Practice Program( Full two days for each one ).

Last year I did Fire Kasina for some days for my daily sits, and combined with Shinzen’s See In and See Rest, they created a flow in visual field. By flow I mean when I look at darkness or brightness, almost always there are little lines or hairs similar to fingerprint effect that are moving. Another effect that they had was that, I started to see patterns of light with eyes open too, the same one that I see with eyes closed just before opening my eyes.

And around a year ago, I started to have piti like experiences in sits, feelings of coldness and breeze, and some sensations at the bottom of the spine that seems that are moving, but just moving in place. And also almost in every sit, if I get concentrated, I get vibrations in my head around forehead and eyes, it's like a burst of energy releasing, and a few seconds or minutes later, it gets released with intense vibrations again, which distracts attention, but is not unpleasant and is not pleasant neither.

Recently that I started Fire Kasina, for a few days, it was mostly red/yellow dot, and gray/black around it with some little dots or lines of white brightness but vague.After a few days, I started to see rotation around the dot, and spinning around it. One or more little dots or lines were rotating and spinning very quickly, and I started to see a little bright dot with eyes open with a pale halo around it too is I stared more than 1-2 seconds at aything. And after that, I always have the same images/colors that I see with eyes closed, with eyes open too, which caused me to do lots of micro-hits( Short practice periods ) in daily life with these colorful objects, or staring at mountain and then focusing on after image and etc. 

Rotations and spinnings was there for a few days then they disappeared mostly.

And then I started to see little blobs of green and purple color around the dot, along with the dark dot, sometimes black sometimes dark green.
And in a few days these colors developed into more defined green and purple with different shades and radiation of light around them with movements and these little lines or hairs moving around and shining and changing shapes and colors.

The thing that raised question for me, is that although it’s 10 days or more that after red dot kind of disappears, I see these colors that fill almost all of the space in front of the eyes and although this space was 2D before, now it seems that it has depth, it doesn't look 3D but it doesn't look 2D either, but I am not sure that it’s second screen/ murk, because most times there is a defined center. If I focus on the center of visual field, center gets brighter, and I see a bigger dot in green or purple, or a purple dot which is inside a purple surface and the purple has some halo around it. Sometimes this center disappears, but usually it’s there. And if I don’t focus on the center, and widen the attention and hold a bigger area in the attention, the colors become less bright and less defined.

Another reason that I am not sure that it's second screen, is that Daniel says that murk has 3rd Jhana and Dissolution stage qualities, but I don't think that I am there yet( not sure though).

I noticed that sometimes this center, responds to intention. In the early days, I tried to change its shape, and it responded usually with a couple hours latency, or the next day. For instance I intended it to become a star, and next day I noticed that it’s changing shapes and trying to become something like a star, and sometimes it would get a well formed star. Or I intended it to be S, and it took a day or two that I noticed that it changing to a shape like number 8, and sometimes S, but never got very clear and well formed. I stoped trying to change shapes.

Another effect that this practice had, is that it intensified energetic sensations, and I notice more vibratory sensations in the body, and spread of tingly sensations like pins and needles over some part of the body, also more activity at the bottom of the spine, but all movements there are in place.

After two weeks that I started this practice, one day at office I was working ( coding ), that I noticed that these movements started to get more intense at the bottom of spine, and suddenly, for 10-20 times, feelings of pleasant coolness and breeze spread over my body, and it was the same for about an hour, with less intensity, and then it stopped and left a very intense headache which lasted for about an hour. After that there was joy for some hours and I was enjoying everything in a not usual way, and I had wishes of well being for everyone and etc, which passed too after I woke up the next day.

So my question is, what I described is Murk? Or it’s the first screen that likes to present some colors in it!?
And also, from the descriptions that I gave, does it look like any stage based on 16 stages? I read the first 11 stages from MCTB, Three Characteristics and A&P looked much closer to my experiences, but I tend to assume that I can't diagnose it unless I am 100% sure. With Culadasa's 10 stages model, my experience fits mostly with stage 6.

I appreciate your help, and sorry that it is a long description for a simple question.
Thank you.

RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen?
Answer
5/5/19 7:18 PM as a reply to Siavash Mahmoudpour.
Hey Siavash, what you are describing does sound like you are in screen 2. The murk is what arises once the initial nimitta/dot/light fades into a black dot and disappears. 

The best description of FK screens and other phenomena can be found here:

https://firekasina.org/glossary/

D
on't be surprised if you progress quite quickly with this technique, as some people naturally take to it with very little practice emoticon

Enjoy! 

RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen?
Answer
5/5/19 8:31 PM as a reply to Anna L.
Thank you Anna :-)

RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen?
Answer
5/27/19 3:35 PM as a reply to Siavash Mahmoudpour.
Does any of what I described, seems related to any of Jhanas or insight stages?
For a period in the last 8-10 months, my intention was to enter the Jhanas, but I don't think that I've entered any Jhana except maybe a very light Jhana sometimes.
Although doing it with breath practice, usually there is manifestations of piti as vibrations/pressure/heat and etc, and kind of single pointed attention without much distractions or dullness, just some subtle distractions here and there (using Culadasa's definitions), but almost always there isn't feelings of joy and happiness.

With breath practice, when my concentration is better, these bursts of energy release in forehead lessens and body gets relaxed, and there is a feeling of spaciousness, that the visual field seems completely dark with no mental images, except white bright nimita sometimes, and there is a feeling of depth in visual field, that I feel that the distance between my hands to my head or where the observer is located, is much longer, or I feel that my body is much bigger and feeling of sensations in my hands are expanded to parts of the room, and I am watching the visual field from a higher location in the room,one or more feet above my head. And there is tingling sensations in most of the body, but I can' label it any Jhana. With Fire Kasina, it's also like this without the feeling of spaciousness.

With this Fire Kasina, after the dot disappears and I start to have different colors with changing shapes and radiations of light and etc that fill the visual field, in that phase, usually there isn't much distractions in mind, and there is a peacefulness and quietness in mind and relaxation in body, also piti, but again not any noteable sense of happiness.

Although I am usually very hard on myself about not thinking that I've attained something unless I am really really sure, checked with different sources, but there wasn't any noticeable moment that seemed like entering a Jhana, as Leigh Brasington says that if you enter the Jhanas, it would be an unmistakable moment and experience.

I should mention that I often have obssesive behaviour patterns, checking things again and again to be sure. It gets more intense if I am in a period of anxiety and worry, and becomes more normal after I pass those periods of anxiety and negative feelings.

By the way, I've read the Glossory, and listened to the Q&A and most of the diaries several times, and also all of Daniel's interviews.

Thanks :-)

RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen?
Answer
5/6/19 6:13 AM as a reply to Anna L.
Anna L:
Hey Siavash, what you are describing does sound like you are in screen 2. The murk is what arises once the initial nimitta/dot/light fades into a black dot and disappears. 

The best description of FK screens and other phenomena can be found here:

https://firekasina.org/glossary/

D
on't be surprised if you progress quite quickly with this technique, as some people naturally take to it with very little practice emoticon

Enjoy! 
Sorry Anna, I marked the question unanswered to just get more opinions about the second part of my question. Your answer was quite helpful regarding discerning screens. Thank you.

RE: Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas?
Answer
5/6/19 2:36 PM as a reply to Siavash Mahmoudpour.
Hi Siavash! It’s so good to see you here! I always find your posts in Shinhead interesting and compassionate.

You are more experienced than me, so I’m definitely not in a position to do a dharma diagnosis, but what you are describing sounds to me like A&P. Seeing a black dot suggests entering into dissolution, if I’m not mistaken, but I haven’t done much fire kasina. It is possible to go through A&P many times.

Great descriptions!

RE: Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas?
Answer
5/6/19 3:00 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Thank you so much Linda. I didn't know you are here, last night after I joined I saw some of your comments. That's great.

Yes, that's what the documents and descriptions says. The reason that I am skeptic about both Jhanas and Stages, is that I didn't have any major experience or noteable moment, everything goes gradual (Or maybe I am defining metrics so low or so high for myself). Although I have periods of negative emotions and anxiety for a few years now, and before I didn't think that it could be related to practice, but recently I noticed that it could be related to practice, because for this last episode of these negative states that lasted around 7-8 weeks, when I started to bring more equanimity and practiced more, it started to be les problematic.

Also there was lots of bodily pain included in this recent episode, pain around the chest and back and ribs, like always I thought that something is wrong with my health, but when the negative state passed away, all those pains disappeared too, so I thought it could be related to practice, and maybe something around Three Characteristics. Anyway :-)

Thanks for your kind words.

RE: Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas?
Answer
5/6/19 3:19 PM as a reply to Siavash Mahmoudpour.
It’s probably wise to be careful about assuming things. I’m not that wise, and it may very well turn out to be very embarassing at some point.

Here is a great video about how the nanas relate to pain and other variables: https://vimeo.com/69793499 Maybe you have already seen it.

I used to suffer from back pain every time I was in the dukkha nanas, and when I shifted into equanimity it was always miraculously healed. Now I don’t know. It doesn’t seem to work like that anymore. The pain isn’t there.

RE: Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas?
Answer
5/6/19 3:32 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
It’s probably wise to be careful about assuming things. I’m not that wise, and it may very well turn out to be very embarassing at some point.

Here is a great video about how the nanas relate to pain and other variables: https://vimeo.com/69793499 Maybe you have already seen it.

I used to suffer from back pain every time I was in the dukkha nanas, and when I shifted into equanimity it was always miraculously healed. Now I don’t know. It doesn’t seem to work like that anymore. The pain isn’t there.


Yes, but becoming obsessive about not taking assumptions can be problematic too, and not wise, and I tend to do it quite often.

For one of pain manifestations, located near the middle of spine, it became clear that it's related to practice, because it started initially during formal sits, first as itching sensations, and when concentration got better, it turned into pain, and it continued for some days like that, and then there was just pain in that area. Now it's gone, but probably will be back.

It seems that bringing new concepts and materials to mind, and bringing clearity to sensations, changes how they manifest and it makes it hard to put it into predictable patterns.

Thanks for the video. I need to watch that again.

RE: Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas?
Answer
5/6/19 3:33 PM as a reply to Siavash Mahmoudpour.
Maybe it would be a win-win if we influence each other, then.

Yeah, meditation does funny things to one’s perception. I hope your pain will go away.

Also, I hope you will like it here.

RE: Fire Kasina, first screen or second screen? Any Jhanas?
Answer
5/6/19 3:35 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Maybe it would be a win-win if we influence each other, then.

Yeah, meditation does funny things to one’s perception. I hope your pain will go away.

Also, I hope you will like it here.

Thanks :-) . It's already a win-win :-)

RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen?
Answer
5/6/19 5:29 PM as a reply to Siavash Mahmoudpour.
All good! ☺️

re jhanas, obviously there’s a lot of debate regarding what is a full jhana versus “light” jhana, versus being in a state with jhanic qualities etc. 

I can can only speak from personal experience and say that while FK is the technique that for me most reliably leads to jhanic states, it doesn’t always happen every sit to the same degree. Sometimes this state will be very deep (can no longer feel body, no sense of time, very absorbed) and other times very mild (mind is quite distracted, more discursive thought than usual). 

The the way I think about it is that it requires a certain degree of relatively strong concentration to see a nimitta / light sequence in FK. This concentration exists on a spectrum. Once you’ve reached access concentration and can see the nimitta you’re on the spectrum. How deep you go from here will now depend on a variety of other factors (intention, regular practice, etc.). 

One of the DhO members (Neko?) has a great way of describing what seem to be vital factors that tend to lead to progress in FK: patience, faith and curiosity. Striving, sincerity and effort seem to get you to access concentration, but once you’re on that spectrum and seeing the nimitta, it can help to hold the striving more lightly and to instead start to cultivate a sense of curiosity, wonder, awe and enjoyment regarding the visual phenomena. Have faith that what you are seeing / experiencing is what you need to see right now - be patient and don’t try to rush ahead. 

FK practice seems to really thrive on enjoyment - the more you surrender and enjoy the deeper you will go emoticon 

RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen?
Answer
5/6/19 6:13 PM as a reply to Anna L.
Thank you Anna. Good points.

Yes, the feedback mechanism that the visuals have regarding concentration level, is great. So far, at the best of concentration, usually arises a very bright white light which is scattered around a black hole in the center, and it goes away the moment that attention wanders.

Fortunately I like this practice and enjoy it ;-)

RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen?
Answer
5/9/19 8:41 PM as a reply to Siavash Mahmoudpour.
I have found it really helpful at times to try to document the visuals that occur in a sit in as much granular detail as possible (colours, clarity, vibration, sequence etc.) and record this. When you have this goal/intention to really concentrate and record and memorise the visuals it can sometimes also help with concentration. It's been a good practice for me in terms of really getting into phenomenology (I'm a very visual person). 

Enjoy emoticon

RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen?
Answer
5/9/19 9:06 PM as a reply to Anna L.
Thank you for reminding that Anna,
Actually it's been some time that I was thinking to do that with my experiences in meditation, but I haven't done that regularly.
I had an old blog that I hadn't used it for years, today I cleaned it, to just use it for this purpose to record my experiences. I hope to have enough motivations to do it :-)

I read some of your posts that you write about your experiences, thank for doing that. It helps others and I got some tips from it.

RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen?
Answer
5/15/19 8:02 AM as a reply to Siavash Mahmoudpour.
So if the above descriptions that I gave, correlates mostly to A&P, the blow descriptions that belong to my experience in recent days, would be post A&P and maybe Dissolution, or perhaps Three Characteristics?

Almost everyday in recent months, there are moving sensations and activity at the bottom of the spine, but in recent few days, there is almost nothing there.

And these recent few days I slept a little more than the days before. And I fall asleep towards the end of formal sitting practice, which doesn’t happen usually.

Also yesterday I woke up with a dream that I was so angry in that dream, unusually angry, and anger was there for several hours after I woke up( I don't get angry usually ) and these three days, there is feeling of restlessness and agitation with no obvious reason. Also there is pain in the body, specially intense pain in bones, and long lasting headache, and lots of pulsations in muscles.

Also sometimes there is a feeling of vertigo( is this the right word? ) or dizziness for some seconds or minutes, it’s usually subtle, but it kind of feels like the space and my head in space, is not as solid and stable as always.
I try to not assume any certainty about stages, but also I can't stop not noticing the difference in my experience with previous days!

And with Fire Kasina, which is stil my daily practice these days, it's about a week maybe there is a new phenomenon, Both with eyes open in daily activities and eyes closed in meditation, there are very little bright dots with pale halo around them, that are blinking usually(sometimes are stable), and sometimes it just blinks for a moment then is gone and sometimes stay longer. They are never in the center of the visual field, but usually a little off the center and sometimes far off the center to the left or right. They are in white, yello, green and purple colors.

I appreciate any comment.
Thanks.

RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen?
Answer
5/14/19 7:28 AM as a reply to Siavash Mahmoudpour.
Interesting!!! Now that I wrote that there is no activity at the bottom of my spine for a few days, sensations started to arise there and move around like before!!!

It was just waiting for me to write it down ;-)

RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen?
Answer
5/15/19 12:27 AM as a reply to Siavash Mahmoudpour.
It’s fascinating how fast things change in our practice, isn’t it? Just noticing something and not denying it or trying to change it can make a huge difference.

RE: Fire Kasina, is this first screen or second screen?
Answer
5/15/19 2:51 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Yes!