Hello Beo,
Congrats on your stream entry by the way. I sorry to have to admit that I have only read a few of your posts so I am not up to speed on your story, as you can appreciate I've had to be fairly introspective of late. I hope it is as interesting an experience for you as it has been for me (assuming I have stream entry of course, I still have doubts.)
Beo:I'm having some troubles too post Stream Entry. Lots of confusion about what is currently going on. I also had the feeling that everything up to Stream Entry made sense, with all the stages I was in being very clear. I still believe I'm right about what I went through up to Stream Entry; I'm just confused about what is going on now. Currently I'm wondering whether I'm on 2nd Path already or still Reviewing first. I seem to have gotten into "new" stages of Fear, that is, ones I don't slip through easily like I did with what I thought was 1st path review, but it could be a new take on the old experience.
Actually right now I feel just like I did pre-SE when trying to get SE. I only vaguely know where I am or what I'm doing. Maybe you can relate? What I did pre-SE is just write down all my thoughts and experiences. Once hitting SE they made sense. I feel the same thing is happening here, as we're getting into new ground now. So I'm going to just keep writing and meditating and hope it will make sense later.
Oh yes, very confusing. But I do feel okay with the confusion at the moment, even when my mind is "grinding", that's sort of okay too. Just prior to path my life was very simple, Sit, eat, sit, sit, work, sit, eat, sleep. But don't forget that I went straight from being seriously ill and bedridden to SE in just over a year. Prior to that I had not done any formal practice 4 four years or so. So in general my pre-path experience was pretty confusing for all kinds of reasons not practice related. Things got clearer once I started practicing again, only to be replaced by new anxieties. So unfortunately, my pre-path experience sounds rather different to yours.
You say you are confused about what is going on now. I am interested to know where your confusion is. Is it a sensation of confusion as in "note:confusion" or that stuff in your life just don't make sense? Does the confusion exist on its own or is there other stuff around it?
I can't comment on 2nd path, or any new stages I'm afraid. I had never seen or heard of an insight map before I bought Daniel Ingram's book which was about 5-6 months ago. I feel like I've just graduated from college with in a subject I know nothing about. I feel very pleased about this, but it also means I am not an expert on states or stages by any means.
As regards writing it all down. I have gone through periods where it has been very productive to write down every last detail. But I've always found that the process of writing has been the important thing. Being able to externalise the experience has always helped me to move on bit. It is the release that writing gives me that I'm after, rather than a record of my thoughts and feelings. Put stuff to bed, then move on, kind of deal. I rarely re-read my diaries, although I have met many people who do and set great store by it.
Beo
About having control over it... I feel like I still do, in that if I meditate more, I will make more progress. I would recommend against practicing not at your full potential, or getting comfortable, by thinking that it'll all happen anyway. Otherwise there'd be no reason to go on retreats, as they wouldn't speed up progress at all. Again I don't know any more than you do, though, these are just my thoughts. (EDIT: Just to make it clear, I certainly don't feel like I can control stopping it! It'll go on whether I like it or not, but I can help speed it along, it seems.)
A final note... I've noticed in the past that whenever I've worked on my concentration, my insight improved. Just last night I did candle flame meditation, and had some very interesting vipassana experiences later. Maybe some concentration would help you? Kasina practice, or closed-eye jhanas, or candle flame (which apparently ends up getting you vipassana jhanas but you have to use a lot of concentration to do it effectively). Something to think about... and I think Kenneth Folk recommends that anybody past-first-path-A&P just "concentrate their asses off." Also the story about someone going from pre-stream-entry to Arahat in a two month retreat, because they had unusually good concentration. Let's not put the extra concentration abilities we got as a side-effect of stream entry to waste!
Hmmm...control issues, don cha just love'm. This is still a work in progress for me. If I did, indeed, get SE, it's only been a week since I announced it to the world. I've been practicing for over 20 years, so a week is just a eye blink. Its way too early for me to be making hard and fast rules for myself regarding practice. In any case I got some very good advice on this score:
Daniel:
Big advice: keep practicing clearly, presently, neither too tightly or too loosely, and just see what happens as this all unfolds, as these moments provide all sorts of great clues to all sorts of things, some of which you may only appreciate years later.
Tarin:
assuming that howard has gotten stream entry, i very much recommend that he become familiar with the path's review stage rather than do as you did by pressing on quickly (and somewhat manically). among the benefits gained in doing so are the time to integrate into daily life the more challenging aspects of the perspectival shift which has occurred (such as the inevitable increase in concentration, direct insight into the three characteristics, and different relationship with the sense of identity), the opportunity to gain further insight into the nanas/knowleges (including how to reattain fruition knowledge), and the sheer pleasure of resting after a job well done. also, the chance to remember how to enjoy the little things in life, which is worth knowing for later and which a long spell in the pre-path dark night can have led one to have forgotten.
the days immediately following stream entry are valuable and ought to be spent wisely. what has changed? what has stayed the same? how do the three characteristics now touch one's life?
the way to practice in review is to relax effort and let mindfulness direct itself. a meditator who has practised mahasi-style (the noting method) should, upon sitting down, observe what is immediately the case (what things there are to note/to notice). doing this, he should be able to attain to the stage of arising and passing away at will and to subsequently cycle through the knowledges up to fruition. he should practise this again and again, with the same kind of intimacy with and enjoyment of the territory as has someone who is sitting in a garden he has himself cultivated which has now come to flower.
This pretty much what I have been trying to do. I've had to impose some kind of structure of late, but only when nothing strong presents itself or it feels appropriate. "Loose-ish but curious" sums it up. Early days, like I said.
Howard:
Once any meaning has been squeezed out of an experience the process immediately casts around for new material to chew on. If none is available it will immediately "grind" the old stuff obsessively.
Beo:
What do you mean by meaning being squeezed out of an experience? How does that happen? And can you clarify on the process grinding the old stuff?
I mean that there is a mental process over which I have not control that looks for meaning in past experience. A memory arises, another memory arises, a causal connection is "seen," a little jolt and a kind of "oh yeah" moment occurs. Sometimes this immediately leads to other memories, connections, and "oh yeahs." It can be quite a heady process, it feels organic and natural. Then the process stops, but the mind keeps trying to grab for more in a way that eventually becomes tedious in the extreme. Its a bit like watching some sci-fi movie representation of a computer program trying to break down a security code, but failing.This last bit I call "grinding."
Beo:
By the process, you mean the Progress of Insight, with the stages and all?
Unfortunately no, its very linear, limited and two dimentional. But this brings up some new insight that occurred to me last night. I think the organic and natural bit is part of the post path review process. The "grinding" is actually the Reobservation portion of the progress of insight. This has caught me out before, a couple of days after path. One of the characteristics of Reobservation that I can see, is that you can very easily "poke your finger through it" if you are mindful for long enough. For me its about 2-3 mins these days, in that I mean to see it for what it is. It may take up to 20-30 mins on the cushion for it to dissolve completely . In any case it collapses soon enough and is exposed for the parlour game that it is. But I'm sure this varies, depending on ones skill level and circumstance. This was exactly the case last night, I sat down for half an hour after getting in from work, rose to equanimity and the thing collapsed. No obvious fruition though. Maybe it was the recognition of the reobservation and a dawning truth that I really am stuck with this cycling thing, for better or worse. Damn you stream entry!
Beo:
And by "old stuff," do you mean something like going over old experiences in your head, not to much use, the same way that I would think about conversations I've had weeks ago and imagine myself saying the same words or even saying different words long after it doesn't matter?
Exactly, but more mechanistic, like its reading from a script. Probably Reobservation, in my case.
Well, that was a long post. Thank you Beo for being so honest with your own content/process. This is a tough road and its good to have people around who really "get it."
Howard
