Message Boards Message Boards

Insight and Wisdom

Stream Entry, Cycling, New Paths vs Old, Confused!

Toggle



Hi everyone, 

for some years now I have believed that I have SE. My practice has been poor and erratic however and I think I just went through a massive dose of the DN in daily life due to that lack of practice. 

Now, after reading MCBT2 all of a sudden I am filled with enthusiasm for continuing the journey, i feel bright and alert and just “better” after applying much better technique in the form of investigating sensations rather than just following the jhanic arc without much technique for years. …

I am confused however about what happens post/pre SE in terms of cycling and review and new vs old territory. 

In parts of MCBT2 I read that post SE one should be starting in the A&P and popping up to EQ and maybe fruition. This fits with my experience up till just recently (except the fruitions may or may not be ocurring) BUT, now I am absolutely without much doubt starting to sit and often starting somewhere in the first vipassana jhana. I know this because after a minute or so my body will start twisting and turning and I’ll get a bit of a headache then all that will disappear and I’ll be in 2nd vipassana jhana (no effort required, whee…..). Tons of stuff can happen after that but that’s for another post. 

My question is: what’s going on? does this invalidate my (and teachers) assumption that I have SE? I did read that after review one would enter a new mnd and body but the references seem to conflict and I can’t work it out. 

Please advise, 

PS..
Daniel, thanks so much for MCBT2, after just a few days of better technique due to this inspiring book I seem to be at least moving again with my practice emoticon

RE: Stream Entry, Cycling, New Paths vs Old, Confused!
Answer
8/26/19 3:19 AM as a reply to Nick W.
How can you tell that you haven't just entered a late 3C's to A&P phase?

Bodily twisting and kunalini stuff and the like is much less likely to be strong in a Review phase, just FYI. In Review, typically the A&P phase will be extremely quick, like seconds to minutes, and typically undramatic, rarely involving much odd energetic stuff, such as twisting, and rapidly progress to Dissolution for most, particularly if people can just drop into it and go wide rather than try to force practice to take some less natural track.

Glad the book has been helpful. Keep a wide differential diagnosis list (possible things any stage could be) when mapping, as it is a tricky business.

Best wishes!

Daniel

RE: Stream Entry, Cycling, New Paths vs Old, Confused!
Answer
8/26/19 3:46 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
How can you tell that you haven't just entered a late 3C's to A&P phase?

Bodily twisting and kunalini stuff and the like is much less likely to be strong in a Review phase, just FYI. In Review, typically the A&P phase will be extremely quick, like seconds to minutes, and typically undramatic, rarely involving much odd energetic stuff, such as twisting, and rapidly progress to Dissolution for most, particularly if people can just drop into it and go wide rather than try to force practice to take some less natural track.

Glad the book has been helpful. Keep a wide differential diagnosis list (possible things any stage could be) when mapping, as it is a tricky business.

Best wishes!

Daniel


And what would be the difference between these short cycles pre Stream Entry and in Review? I don't know that I have been in Equanimity ever or not, but it seems that there is a fast cycling going on, because of the very quick shifts in body mind states, for instance there is a few minutes of joy and rapture, and then some minutes of strong negative emotions and harsh vibrations in body and etc, and these pattern repeat. I know this is not a very specific question, but I assume there would be some differences between the cycling before and after the Path. Thanks.

RE: Stream Entry, Cycling, New Paths vs Old, Confused!
Answer
8/26/19 3:57 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
How can you tell that you haven't just entered a late 3C's to A&P phase?

Bodily twisting and kunalini stuff and the like is much less likely to be strong in a Review phase, just FYI. In Review, typically the A&P phase will be extremely quick, like seconds to minutes, and typically undramatic, rarely involving much odd energetic stuff, such as twisting, and rapidly progress to Dissolution for most, particularly if people can just drop into it and go wide rather than try to force practice to take some less natural track.

Glad the book has been helpful. Keep a wide differential diagnosis list (possible things any stage could be) when mapping, as it is a tricky business.

Best wishes!

Daniel

Hey Daniel, 

I can tell because after some time in effortless 2nd feeling jhana i will feel the attention move outward toward the edges of my body/perception and the pleasure will drop away also and be much more "refined" and at the edges feeling. If Im able to go further it will then drop away and bodily sensations can drop away to virtually nothing as i allow my frame of reference (sense of where i am) sinks into my head. I have, though am not currently in the last few days, noticed fear, crawling skin etc during 3rd also. 

Currently i have no idea if i am in 4th territory or not but the head pressure i can experiene massively in 3rd is till there but no longer hurts. No longer has any "bite".

Yesterday i got this far and felt a little bliss wave (tiny though, and sometimes a loud noise outside can also cause a similar sensation so dont read too much into it) and then went for a walk. When i came back i expected to start from where i left off (this would align with the last few years expereince) but was back in 1st VJ and twisting and turning all over again. 

Have i been in review or stuck for years and am only now entering new territory or did i simply not ge SE after all and Im just going through for the first time?

Im not so worried about SE. It was a big deal to me years ago but it's not like you get a badge right? Im just confused as to where I am (but seriously enjoying the ride again!!)

PS...
Your comments on Fear not having teeth really hit home. I've had terrible fear in daily life for the last 6mts or more (and misery etc. you could argue anyone would get these as my life has been a bit of a mess for sure but..) but now i revel in it, and it's very liberating emoticon

RE: Stream Entry, Cycling, New Paths vs Old, Confused!
Answer
8/26/19 3:57 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

particularly if people can just drop into it and go wide rather than try to force practice to take some less natural track.


This part had me laughing a bit. I was stupid enough to attend a workshop in so called energy orgasms a day or so after SE. I would definitely not recommend that to anyone. It was a really bad idea. Ouch. And so not worth it, as it was about as sophisticated as spinning round and round to get dizzy like small children do.

RE: Stream Entry, Cycling, New Paths vs Old, Confused!
Answer
8/26/19 5:58 AM as a reply to Nick W.
Nick W, sometimes the best way to figure out where you have been is just to keep going. Sounds like you are inspired again and know that a lot more is possible... I would recommend just re-establishing a consistent daily practice and see what happens.

The instructions don't really change, it's a matter of sitting down, being aware of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts... and noticing what kind of resistances to experience still cause suffering. And don't forget to notice "mapping thoughts" "judging thoughts" "comparing thoughts" etc. 

Much better to spend time practicing than mapping, especially if you don't have a lot of recent practice data points.

RE: Stream Entry, Cycling, New Paths vs Old, Confused!
Answer
8/26/19 1:50 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Nick W, sometimes the best way to figure out where you have been is just to keep going. Sounds like you are inspired again and know that a lot more is possible... I would recommend just re-establishing a consistent daily practice and see what happens.

The instructions don't really change, it's a matter of sitting down, being aware of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts... and noticing what kind of resistances to experience still cause suffering. And don't forget to notice "mapping thoughts" "judging thoughts" "comparing thoughts" etc. 

Much better to spend time practicing than mapping, especially if you don't have a lot of recent practice data points.
Excellent adice I think. Would be good to find a teacher again as well and maybe get on retreat if I can emoticon

thanks,