Please help me clear my doubts

Frank El, modified 13 Years ago at 2/12/11 3:02 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/12/11 3:02 PM

Please help me clear my doubts

Posts: 7 Join Date: 2/12/11 Recent Posts
Hello,

I have some doubts if I should change something in my sitting practice. I read MCTB and I very much appreciate
Daniel`s straight-forward attitude. But I still need to find my way of doing this and I am not sure if that, what I am doing is leading somewhere.

So I began to do this: I sit for two times for one hours a day, observing the breath going in through the nostrils and out, focusing on the breath and the sensations that arise. When something happens I go back to the sensations of the breath around the nostrils.
After a while there are tingling sensations on the skin especially on the upper lip and around the nose and the "mental comments" become less. Other sensations like pain,tensions, pressure etc on the body begin to stand back behind the sensation of the breath until theres only the focus on breath (more or less).
It`s quite peaceful and the body breathes on its own. I try to be aware of appearing itches, pain, muscle moving etc and when they are gone I focus back to breath.

Would it be better to do something like scanning the body like SN Goenka says, to become aware of all sensations on the body and not just the obvious? Is this important?

Daniel writes about the noting technique, but am I already doing this? It sounds probably silly, but if I note mentally "itching" for example it seems to me like a repetition of something I already noticed before.

I am asking because I dont know if I am doing something wrong or missing something out. I have been sitting for about 3 years daily for 30 min, since last month 1-2 hours and I noticed I became more mindful and less agitated, but in sitting it ends always in something I would call in my words "watching sensations in silence" and thats it. I feel somehow stuck.

Any comments and advices are very appreciated.

My kind regards,
Frank
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Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 2/12/11 3:18 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/12/11 3:18 PM

RE: Please help me clear my doubts

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Hi Frank, welcome to the DhO.

Frank:

Would it be better to do something like scanning the body like SN Goenka says, to become aware of all sensations on the body and not just the obvious? Is this important?

Daniel writes about the noting technique, but am I already doing this? It sounds probably silly, but if I note mentally "itching" for example it seems to me like a repetition of something I already noticed before.


What you are doing is essentially concentration practice. If your goal is to end or reduce suffering (enlightenment etc), you should do insight meditation. Noting practice, mahasi style, is a good powerful practice, people here at DhO tend to think it is superior to goenka style scanning. By your descriptions I would say you have enough concentration to do insight practice.

Here are the instructions for doing Mahasi-style noting: link. Try it out a few times, and notice how it is very different from focusing on the breath. For instance, you will very soon start noting stuff like moods, mind states, mind chatter, discomfort, etc, and you'll get the chance to really see those things face-to-face. In concentration meditation, you work actively towards a peaceful state of mind; in insight meditation, your job is to understand how your mind works, leaving no stone unturned.

You could integrate that in your practice routine, for instance, you could start with 20m concentration, then 40m-1h insight, then maybe 20m concentration again.

Take care,
Bruno
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 13 Years ago at 2/12/11 3:30 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/12/11 3:30 PM

RE: Please help me clear my doubts

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Hi and welcome!

Frank El:
I have some doubts if I should change something in my sitting practice. I read MCTB and I very much appreciate
Daniel`s straight-forward attitude. But I still need to find my way of doing this and I am not sure if that, what I am doing is leading somewhere.

Where are you trying to go? What are your goals? We'll need to know that before telling you whether you are getting there =P.

Frank El:
So I began to do this: I sit for two times for one hours a day, observing the breath going in through the nostrils and out, focusing on the breath and the sensations that arise. When something happens I go back to the sensations of the breath around the nostrils.
After a while there are tingling sensations on the skin especially on the upper lip and around the nose and the "mental comments" become less. Other sensations like pain,tensions, pressure etc on the body begin to stand back behind the sensation of the breath until theres only the focus on breath (more or less).
It`s quite peaceful and the body breathes on its own. I try to be aware of appearing itches, pain, muscle moving etc and when they are gone I focus back to breath.

I agree with Bruno - this is concentration practice. It can be very relaxing, and also will help you with insight if that's what you want to do. It sounds like you are getting access concentration or 1st jhana, here, so that's a good step.

Frank El:
Would it be better to do something like scanning the body like SN Goenka says, to become aware of all sensations on the body and not just the obvious? Is this important?

Regardless of what technique you use, you definitely don't want to limit yourself to just the obvious sensations! If you want to do insight, simply observe what sensations are arising. Mental calm is a sensation; the feeling that the body is breathing on its own is a sensation; those itches, pains, etc, are all sensations; the breath is a sensation; etc.

Frank El:
Daniel writes about the noting technique, but am I already doing this? It sounds probably silly, but if I note mentally "itching" for example it seems to me like a repetition of something I already noticed before.

Noting is a really good way to make sure you actually are observing sensations and your mind isn't wandering. If you notice an itch, then a few seconds later you notice another itch, that's a whole bunch of seconds you could've been using for observing other things. If you notice some itching and you obviously did, then i guess no need to note 'itching', but getting into the habit of just labeling everything you see can get you into the habit of observing everything. Also noting is really good later when sensations get more subtle. E.g. if you are bored/feeling 'meh' and just sitting there, if you're not used to noting you might be inclined to be like 'lah dee dah dum de dum kinda bored', but with noting you would just go 'bored bored meh bored indifferent', etc. - that is, observing more sensations. So for example:

Frank El:
in sitting it ends always in something I would call in my words "watching sensations in silence" and thats it. I feel somehow stuck.

feeling stuck, feeling stuck, silence, watching, silence, feeling stuck
Frank El, modified 13 Years ago at 2/12/11 8:14 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/12/11 8:14 PM

RE: Please help me clear my doubts

Posts: 7 Join Date: 2/12/11 Recent Posts
Thanks Bruno and Beoman for your advice. There are some good things pointed out.

Beoman Claudiu Beoman:
Where are you trying to go? What are your goals? We'll need to know that before telling you whether you are getting there =P.


I am trying to "hit the bottom" in the long run. I want to experience how the mind works and what makes aversion and craving arise and how to get rid of it permanently. I noticed aversion and craving itself does not care, if the result is good or bad. It would be very nice to be free of it and not just handling it, especially if it`s true what they say and these underlying, unknown habit patterns dont disappear with the body.

Beoman Claudiu Beoman:
feeling stuck, feeling stuck, silence, watching, silence, feeling stuck


I wasnt really aware of some things you wrote like silence, calm, watching itself

I did some sitting and for now noting too much irritates the awareness and theres less calmness, more agitation. It feels a step backwards because labeling sensations is slower than sensations appearing. It lacks the purpose of beeing aware of more, if I miss the most. Needs more practice and maybe some reading, I guess.

With kind regards,
Frank
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 13 Years ago at 2/13/11 2:56 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/13/11 2:54 AM

RE: Please help me clear my doubts

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Frank El:
Beoman Claudiu Beoman:
feeling stuck, feeling stuck, silence, watching, silence, feeling stuck


I wasnt really aware of some things you wrote like silence, calm, watching itself

Ah ok, I was just going by what you wrote:
Frank El:
... It`s quite peaceful ...
... but in sitting it ends always in something I would call in my words "watching sensations in silence" and thats it. I feel somehow stuck.

My point was to not ignore the subtler things like feeling stuck - feeling stuck is a sensation too!

Frank El:
I did some sitting and for now noting too much irritates the awareness and theres less calmness, more agitation. It feels a step backwards because labeling sensations is slower than sensations appearing. It lacks the purpose of beeing aware of more, if I miss the most. Needs more practice and maybe some reading, I guess.

Yeah you find a balance at some point. I would usually just note when my mind started wandering, and note subtler things like thoughts, but i wouldn't note every body sensation. in general, being aware of every sensation as it happens will work, noting just helps you do that if you're not doing that already.
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Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 2/13/11 7:34 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/13/11 7:34 AM

RE: Please help me clear my doubts

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Frank El:

I did some sitting and for now noting too much irritates the awareness and theres less calmness, more agitation. It feels a step backwards because labeling sensations is slower than sensations appearing. It lacks the purpose of beeing aware of more, if I miss the most. Needs more practice and maybe some reading, I guess.


Although it does get better with practice, this was exactly what I thought you would find: insight meditation is much more irritating! Note agitation, note irritation, note lack of purpose, etc... where do these things come from? why are they always there?!

In general three questions to ask of anything which arises: is it permanent or is it mutating? is it personal or impersonal? is it satisfying or annoying?
Frank El, modified 12 Years ago at 10/3/11 6:43 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/3/11 6:43 AM

RE: Please help me clear my doubts

Posts: 7 Join Date: 2/12/11 Recent Posts
Hi guys,

a little status report: I continued noting in Shinzen Young-style (feel,image,talk,touch,sight,sound) with the "default" beeing the breath to back to. I can`t say that helped me on the way of the path or something like that, but it helps to notice sensations fast and prevent a reaction (well, in the best case). The agitation I spoke off, went away when I became used to it.

One other thing I found very useful is something this guy talks about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LTORe5JxkU&feature=feedf
Vipassana Vs the Suttas - Which is Right? Bhante at the Indonesian Temple

It`s smiling and relaxing. Sounds obvious, but I didnt do it intentionally. Doing it intentionally made everything smoother, deeper and easier.