possible to practice actualism on vipassana retreat?

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Jules Omlor, modified 13 Years ago at 3/8/11 9:31 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/8/11 9:31 PM

possible to practice actualism on vipassana retreat?

Posts: 2 Join Date: 3/5/11 Recent Posts
i have an upcoming 10 day vipassana retreat.

recently i discovered the actual freedom teachings and have been alternating wildly between intrigue and negativity (the latter especially through the thoroughly flogged "this is new" issue).

in any case, there is intrigue.

and so i've been wondering what the possibilities are of changing course and taking these full 10 days for dedicated actualism practice?

my main concerns:
1. it is disrespectful to the retreat center, since this is not what the retreat is for.
2. the structure of a silent vipassana retreat itself is incompatible with and/or inconducive to the practice of actualism.

any opinions, guidance? would i be better to just diligently attempt stream entry?

thanks,
sean
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adam ,, modified 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 4:16 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 4:16 PM

RE: possible to practice actualism on vipassana retreat?

Posts: 105 Join Date: 2/19/11 Recent Posts
Well, if your going on vipassana retreat probably do vipassana. dedicated actualism practice is something you do all the time, its not really a retreat type practice.

I'd say just do the retreat exactly as they tell you
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 5:06 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 5:06 PM

RE: possible to practice actualism on vipassana retreat?

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
sean omlor:
1. it is disrespectful to the retreat center, since this is not what the retreat is for.

what vipassana retreat is it? for example if it is a Goenka retreat and you'll do Mahasi-style noting you will be disrespecting the retreat center anyway =).

the way i think of it, the goal of the retreat center is to help people end their suffering.. if you believe actualism is the way to do that, then go for it. you can apologize later once you're actually free, if it is really bugging you.

sean omlor:
the structure of a silent vipassana retreat itself is incompatible with and/or inconducive to the practice of actualism.

it seems quite conducive! peace and quiet, a beautiful environment to walk around in... plenty of time to ask HAIETMOBA with no other goal in mind. during formal sits you can either not go and walk around instead, or you can sit with eyes open and run the question like that.

sean omlor:
any opinions, guidance? would i be better to just diligently attempt stream entry?

hmm whether it is easier to get stream entry and do actualism from there, or just do actualism directly, is an issue i can't address with certitude... maybe others can chip in. generally stream entry does make your mind more powerful and makes you not care so much about your 'self', and if you can do it in 10 days maybe it is best to, but negative effects are Dark Night cycling (though if you crossed A&P that happens anyway) and tendency to wanna do more vipassana instead of switching to actualism, though that might just be me.
aaron , modified 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 7:53 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 7:47 PM

RE: possible to practice actualism on vipassana retreat?

Posts: 34 Join Date: 4/11/10 Recent Posts
Hello Sean,

Beoman's first point is good in that if you do *any* technique outside of Goenka vipassana that would be against the clear and insistent instructions of Goenka. So, if you can justify doing Mahasi vipassana then there really is no reason why you couldn't justify doing any other method that purports to lead to the end of suffering. Totally your call. Though, if I were doing my *first* Goenka course I'd do it "by the books"(aka as Goenka instructs) as I'd just plain be curious how that would turn out.

Beoman's second point doesn't match up with a recent experience of mine: "it seems quite conducive! peace and quiet, a beautiful environment to walk around in... plenty of time to ask HAIETMOBA with no other goal in mind. during formal sits you can either not go and walk around instead, or you can sit with eyes open and run the question like that".

I say this because I just recently came back from a Goenka retreat myself, having the goal to do some intensive actualism practice and I did not find it all that conducive to such an endeavor. It had it's pluses and minuses. A Goenka course does not allow you to walk around much(whether in a "beautiful environment" or not). There is a little time to walk after breakfast, some more after lunch, and a little after "tea time"(or fruit "meal" if you're a first time student). I didn't have a watch on me, but for me this worked out to be only around 1-1.5 hours of walking a day at the most(it was quite cold to, so maybe I could have stretched it a little more like 2 hours). It is not like some other vipassana retreats where you alternate sitting with walking meditation.

Also, you are not given a choice at a Goenka retreat to "not go and walk around instead" during formal sits(this includes not only the 4-5 hours of mandatory sitting in the meditation hall, but the other 7 hours or so of "formal" meditation times where you are allowed to meditate either in your room or the hall. So that's about 12 hours or so that you're gonna be parked on yo ass. As to the possibility of having your eyes open, yes you obviously can do that in your room but they explicitly instruct you to have them closed during all meditation periods, but the teacher observes you quite closely(at least during the beginning and then periodically throughout each sit). The teachers will ask you(or have the "manager" ask you) to close your eyes if they get on to you.

Though, I hadn't meditated in a few years I quickly started experiencing certain hallmarks of meditation(for me at least). Pretty extreme vertigo at times, loud ringing of the ears that quickly became a all-encompassing hum or buzzing sound(sometimes a very low hertz "wha wha" that sounded much like some binaural beats I've listened to in the past), lights flickering with my eyes closed, and body sensations that had a jhana-like quality to them. This was even though I was not consciously trying to practice vipassana. I was trying to practice "actualism with my eyes closed" as one person put it on a old list years ago(ie I was trying to be attentive to my experience, particularly my senses....all of them them though, sight, sound, sensations, not just felt sensations). Perhaps some old Goenka conditioning was triggered as I did find myself "going along" with Goenka when he was talking via the audio tracks as that was just easier than trying to block him out. However, regardless, I found myself in a EE/PCE often as I stepped outside from the meditation hall(though, I notice the same effect every time I step out of a movie theater as well).

I think the pain is worth mentioning as well. Even though I bought and practiced sitting on a meditation bench this winter in preparation for this(even sitting in the so called "easy" style of Burmese position on the ground is just murder on my back and knees) I still experienced what was to me a quite surprising amount of knee pain(though the bench eliminated all back pain more or less. While, I suppose this pain might be a good way to become equanimous to pain, I didn't find it beneficial in regards to making progress toward an actual freedom.

I did enjoy and benefit from being away from work/tv/radio/phones and particularly the internet though. Having someone fix simple and healthy meals was helpful as well as I have scant cooking knowledge and have little inclination to even use what little I know. I'm pretty sure I'll never do a Goenka retreat again. If I'm not actually free before my next vacation, I plan to either do some intensive practice at home or at a "self-guided" retreat center that will allow me to keep my own schedule and where I won't have to listen to hours of meditation instructions that I have no interest in via video and audio.

I can't comment on stream entry(or beyond) as my former meditation practice never lead to those fruits.

Aaron
Jill Morana, modified 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 8:40 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 8:40 PM

RE: possible to practice actualism on vipassana retreat?

Posts: 93 Join Date: 3/1/10 Recent Posts
hi sean,

what kind of 10-day vipassana retreat will you be attending? is it a Goenka course?
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Jules Omlor, modified 13 Years ago at 3/10/11 12:06 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/10/11 12:06 AM

RE: possible to practice actualism on vipassana retreat?

Posts: 2 Join Date: 3/5/11 Recent Posts
thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Beoman Claudiu Beoman:

what vipassana retreat is it?

TJ Broccoli:

what kind of 10-day vipassana retreat will you be attending? is it a Goenka course?


fwiw, the retreat is at IMS retreat center, outside of boston.

i think it's a bit more easygoing than goenka retreats, from what i can gather.

Beoman Claudiu Beoman:

during formal sits you can either not go and walk around instead, or you can sit with eyes open and run the question like that.


it seems the consensus is that actualism is more difficult with eyes closed, huh.

maybe i can get away with keeping my eyes open. i already do practice open-eye meditation (zuowang) from time to time.

i'm also kind of curious what the results would be of focused, closed-eye HAIETMOBA. something to explore.

aaron .:

I say this because I just recently came back from a Goenka retreat myself, having the goal to do some intensive actualism practice and I did not find it all that conducive to such an endeavor. It had it's pluses and minuses.


aaron, thank you for sharing your experience of attempting actualism practice on retreat. helpful to consider.

ok, so from all of this, here is where i am leaning now.

originally i was gearing up to go into this retreat gunning for stream entry full speed, MCTB style. this is atypical of my usual practice style, which is less hardcore, less linear and a bit more like actualism in my limited opinion.

now i am thinking, maybe i will just go into this whole thing with a more relaxed attitude. adopt a wide field of HAIETMOBA as the context for my entire experience. within that, follow the instructions given at the retreat loosely, to the degree that my feelings remain felicitous. maintain the option to switch gears to explicit HAIETMOBA practice as it strikes me, along with actualism style inquiry, particularly if i lose felicity. and really, allow any practice handy that seems effective at bringing me back into a natural, open state of naive wonder throughout the retreat. that's the idea, right?

any objections? tips? further considerations?

thanks,
sean
John White, modified 13 Years ago at 3/10/11 1:01 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/10/11 1:01 AM

RE: possible to practice actualism on vipassana retreat?

Posts: 61 Join Date: 8/16/10 Recent Posts
Hi Sean,

Maybe I'm wrong about this, I apologize if so, but I gather that you haven't gotten stream entry? If not, and you do decide on the vipassana route and haven't checked out Nikolai's account, I would recommend it: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/297362

Also this article on attaining stream entry during a Goenka retreat is very good, even if you'll be at an IMS retreat:
http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/11/going-for-stream-entry-on-goenka-10-day.html

And this collection of tips for attaining stream entry: http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Collection+of+tips+to+get+stream+entry

and of course this fine essay by Tarin about attaining stream entry: http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/ReformedSlackersGuide?p_r_p_185834411_title=ReformedSlackersGuide


I think Adam, Aaron and Beoman all make good points, and clearly the choice is yours. If you go the vipassana route you will obviously have much more support, whereas if you go for actualism you will probably be on your own, though I suppose one never knows, maybe one of the teachers is actually free!

In August 2010 right after a 20 day goenka retreat, I found DhO and was very drawn to AF. I started practicing actualism but didn't get too far, as I determined there was simply too much mind noise. Many people were inquiring - go for AF or enlightenment? The message I got, from my own experience and from reading many posts, was that stream entry was probably the best thing to shoot for, then take it from there. I was making good progress with vipassana and so stuck with it and I'm really glad I did. Now AF seems to be a much more accessible goal.

Another consideration is what Tarin talks about in this thread (can't hit a pce? can't hit an ee? go hit a jhana instead): http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1114402

good luck with whatever you choose!
Jill Morana, modified 13 Years ago at 3/10/11 7:00 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/10/11 6:40 AM

RE: possible to practice actualism on vipassana retreat?

Posts: 93 Join Date: 3/1/10 Recent Posts
for me stream entry was the point at which progressing towards actual freedom finally became experientially understood as realistic--as definitely doable, desirable, practical, logical, sensible, and manageable without requiring guidance-- despite having briefly seen its possibility from a full blown pce a year before that retreat when stream entry happened.

jill
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 13 Years ago at 3/10/11 9:13 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/10/11 9:13 AM

RE: possible to practice actualism on vipassana retreat?

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
TJ Broccoli:
for me stream entry was the point at which progressing towards actual freedom finally became experientially understood as realistic--as definitely doable, desirable, practical, logical, sensible, and manageable without requiring guidance-- despite having briefly seen its possibility from a full blown pce a year before that retreat when stream entry happened.

jill


yea a large part of the reason i fully accept AF as possible is cause stream entry (and other paths) are just those kinds of transformations/mutations of consciousness that Richard describes AF as. so it's like, well if following these instructions (MCTB et. al.) led to this mutation of consciousness, then it seems that following these other instructions (AF) sure can lead to this other (even more beneficial) mutation of consciousness.

but it's also possible without, like Trent's friend did (and quickly).

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