Infinite universe?

Martin Potter, modified 13 Years ago at 3/14/11 1:02 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/14/11 1:02 PM

Infinite universe?

Posts: 86 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
I was looking recently at Richard's writing on infinitude as it is relevant to the experience of being nowhere in particular because if there are no boundaries then there is no middle/center, and everything is only relative to everything else (and so you can locate your town on a map in relation to other towns, but they have no ultimate location).

What I'm having trouble with is even though one can have an experience of infinitude, is it right to extend this to the properties of the physical universe? For example, if the universe is actually infinite, isn't the nature of infinitude that every possible event and every iteration of anything we can imagine is happening somewhere right now (within the physical laws of the universe? Does it not mean that there are:
1) an infinite number of life-forms existing
2) an infinite number of actually free people (why did Richard say he was the first?)
3) an infinite number of beings in inconceivable anguish, and another infinite in great pleasure (the heaven and hells of the scriptures come true) as well as everything in between
4) a forum on some planet where Taran and Troont, two lizard-aliens who have evolved intelligence giving advice on how to become free - discussing life, the universe and what it is to be a lizard being.

I don't think this is what Richard means, where have I gone wrong?

Is there a way of looking at infinitude which is based just on experience without having to worry about the universe as a whole (as I find the instruction of being nowhere in particular and anywhen useful in existing less as a relative entity - the experience of infinitude lessens or absorbs the sense of me).

Thanks
- Martin
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 13 Years ago at 3/14/11 2:59 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/14/11 2:59 PM

RE: Infinite universe?

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Martin Potter:
4) a forum on some planet where Taran and Troont, two lizard-aliens who have evolved intelligence giving advice on how to become free - discussing life, the universe and what it is to be a lizard being.
haha awesome =)

Martin Potter:
Is there a way of looking at infinitude which is based just on experience without having to worry about the universe as a whole (as I find the instruction of being nowhere in particular and anywhen useful in existing less as a relative entity - the experience of infinitude lessens or absorbs the sense of me).

interestingly, the Buddha refused to take a stance on whether the universe is infinite or eternal (see MN 63), probably because it leads into confusing questions/discussions like you mentioned.

would getting a satisfying, rational answer to this help you practice in any way? i believe the answer is simply an experiential one, so you'll see for yourself in a PCE and whether you understand it rationally won't change much? you seem to get the gist of it already - everything is relative to everything else - so i'm not sure if an answer would help. i say this cause i don't know myself =P. maybe someone else can chip in.
Nad A, modified 13 Years ago at 3/14/11 4:31 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/14/11 4:28 PM

RE: Infinite universe?

Posts: 237 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Martin Potter:
I was looking recently at Richard's writing on infinitude as it is relevant to the experience of being nowhere in particular because if there are no boundaries then there is no middle/center, and everything is only relative to everything else (and so you can locate your town on a map in relation to other towns, but they have no ultimate location).

What I'm having trouble with is even though one can have an experience of infinitude, is it right to extend this to the properties of the physical universe?


I don't think it is right but Richard is insistent on it. I haven't heard the same kind of certainty about this from the other actually-free people yet. Richard goes so far as to point to criticisms of Big Bang theory - which seems to be almost as close to 'fact' now as any scientific theory ever gets.

The thing is that space can seem infinite from our point of view as humans but still be finite in actuality - the whole surface of a balloon analogy. It would make the most sense to me that the universe is infinite but science deals with evidence, not what 'makes sense' to our brains - brains which only evolved to understand simple things at this human-size level.
Trent , modified 13 Years ago at 3/14/11 5:08 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/14/11 5:08 PM

RE: Infinite universe?

Posts: 361 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Martin Potter:
where have I gone wrong?


what is here and now?

Martin Potter:
Is there a way of looking at infinitude which is based just on experience without having to worry about the universe as a whole


PCE.

trent
, modified 13 Years ago at 3/14/11 7:40 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/14/11 7:40 PM

RE: Infinite universe?

Posts: 385 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts

- Infiniground Daily News -
This just in:
Troont responds to Martian

Nad A, modified 13 Years ago at 3/14/11 10:12 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/14/11 10:11 PM

RE: Infinite universe?

Posts: 237 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
When I used to ask advaita teachers - back before hearing about AF - about the problems I saw with there still being a 'Self' after the 'self', and with their notion that consciousness comes before matter... the dismissive answer I got back was often along the lines of 'the experience will show you'. They had their certainty because of their direct experience.
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Dauphin Supple Chirp, modified 13 Years ago at 3/24/11 8:31 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/24/11 8:29 AM

RE: Infinite universe?

Posts: 154 Join Date: 3/15/11 Recent Posts
Nad A.:

The thing is that space can seem infinite from our point of view as humans but still be finite in actuality - the whole surface of a balloon analogy. It would make the most sense to me that the universe is infinite but science deals with evidence, not what 'makes sense' to our brains - brains which only evolved to understand simple things at this human-size level.


This "surface of a balloon" thing is not as difficult to grasp as one might think. All you need is a new word: boundless.

Imagine the earth as a perfect solid sphere, and you walk on the surface of the earth. You will never reach an end, never get to a boundary. (There are no fences or national borders on our perfect sphere.) In other words, the surface of the earth is a boundless two-dimensional manifold. However, it is clearly not infinite, but it is in fact finite: If you decide to start settling the perfect sphere and give every settle a 10,000 square-foot lot, then this boundless surface will hold only so many settlers, definitely not infinitely many lizard people.

Just as the surface of a sphere is a finite, but boundless two-dimensional manifold, the space that "houses" our universe is probably a finite, but boundless three-dimensional manifold. But who is to say our universe is the only one in existence right now? And I don't even want to start complicating things by bringing the dimension of time into consideration.

Ultimately I'm with the Buddha on this one. An answer to the question whether the universe is infinite is neither necessary nor sufficient for liberation.
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Shashank Dixit, modified 13 Years ago at 3/25/11 3:50 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/25/11 3:50 AM

RE: Infinite universe?

Posts: 282 Join Date: 9/11/10 Recent Posts

Ultimately I'm with the Buddha on this one. An answer to the question whether the universe is infinite is neither necessary nor sufficient for liberation.


Exactly. It is not essential to know this. In a PCE , a vastness is experienced but it is factually improper to conclude that universe is infinite.
Nad A, modified 13 Years ago at 3/26/11 9:23 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/26/11 9:15 PM

RE: Infinite universe?

Posts: 237 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Shashank Dixit:

Ultimately I'm with the Buddha on this one. An answer to the question whether the universe is infinite is neither necessary nor sufficient for liberation.


Exactly. It is not essential to know this. In a PCE , a vastness is experienced but it is factually improper to conclude that universe is infinite.


Yes, and shouldn't someone who is actually free be aware of that?

I gather it is closer to a sense of 'boundlessness' that is experienced rather than just 'vastness'. My own PCE may have been too short (a second or two) to notice any impressions regarding the universe's size/age.
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Shashank Dixit, modified 13 Years ago at 3/26/11 9:40 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/26/11 9:40 PM

RE: Infinite universe?

Posts: 282 Join Date: 9/11/10 Recent Posts
Nad A.:
Shashank Dixit:

Ultimately I'm with the Buddha on this one. An answer to the question whether the universe is infinite is neither necessary nor sufficient for liberation.


Exactly. It is not essential to know this. In a PCE , a vastness is experienced but it is factually improper to conclude that universe is infinite.


Yes, and shouldn't someone who is actually free be aware of that?

I gather it is closer to a sense of 'boundlessness' that is experienced rather than just 'vastness'. My own PCE may have been too short (a second or two) to notice any impressions regarding the universe's size/age.


Sorry , the word vastness is indeed improper. I have sensed an infiniteness in a PCE , but I wouldn't conclude that as a fact.