Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

Matthew Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Year ago.

Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

Posts: 70 Join Date: 10/6/19 Recent Posts
Ok. It's pretty clear that the dark night stages and dukkha nanas  correlate  with crossing the great outer abyss.  My question.  Which stage and which nanas (mctb2) would correlate with contact with the Holy Guardian Angel?.....  the HGA stage  is supposed to be achieved  before  crossing the Abyss.   it is usually  accompanied by all kinds of super natural  and perceptual  phenomena.       I'm guessing  the AP .  I'm not sure
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Michial Neal, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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I would say A&P.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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I'm pretty sure it's the A&P.
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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This particular Map I know like the back of my hand. emoticon

KCHGA (Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel) is going to correspond to A&P, but we're talking about two very, very different phenemenon. Meeting your HGA corresponds to Adeptus Minor: 5=6. After that, you'll hit 6=5, Adeptus Major, fairly quickly. It takes ten years on average to go from 5=6 to 7=4, Adeptus Exemptus, but that's not set in stone by any means. 

Rules of the Road for 5=6, Adeptus Minor:
This is where the HGA steers. You're just along for the ride. Don't bother with the G.Dawn or A.A. stuff at this level, unless you feel that your life doesn't already have enough drama in it, and feel compelled to add in some more. You'll do way better focusing on the jhanas and insight meditation. If you want something with a "k" on the end of it to read, read some of Crowley's non-ritual stuff. (There's a little known A.C. variant of the LBRP using the unicursal hexagram, but it's fairly cruel and you should be avoiding that sort of mindset as a 5=6.) 

Rules of the Road for 6=5, Adeptus Major: A Thoth deck + the Book of Thoth are going to become your new best friends, along with 777. My only advice here is to stay the hell away from Enochian Magick, anything Goetia -like, or Chaos/OTO stuff you might think you can control, but probably can't. Above all stay out of the Aethyrs. 6=5 is like an old Yellow Pages book: Just because you can call anyone in the book and make things happen, doesn't mean you should. There is always blowback.

Here's my concern vis-a-vis your comments on HGA as a prep for the Abyss...yeah, it corresponds to The Dark Night. But in the system you're referring to, the Dark Night is personified.

Do you know who I'm referring to? Ok, well in the system you're talking about Dark Nighting in, you've got to evoke that personification via Liber 418 to pass over. (Stream Entry) My question is Why the %&$^% you'd want to. Why wouldn't you just use the POI map, or any other map to attain SE? Using Crowley's method multiplies the danger of The Dark Night exponentially.  
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Interesting. Sounds like creepy stuff.
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Interesting. Sounds like creepy stuff.

Yes, well, there's a reason for that: Crowley liked it that way.

The original Mathers-led Golden Dawn crew collapsed after the "war" of 1910 with Crowley, leaving all the post 5=6 stuff to be worked out by A.C. through A:A and the OTO, which are both tres creepy organizations. 
Matthew Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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David k Spencer.    Have you tried ritual magick to gain  some enlightenment?   Whas it successfully?  An it aid meditation?
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Matthew Jon Rousseau:
David k Spencer.    Have you tried ritual magick to gain  some enlightenment?   Whas it successfully?  An it aid meditation?

In my youth. It definitely strengthens mastery of the jhanas and visualization and is a solid introduction to moving energy around, though traditional Taoist/Buddhist techniques are generally more powerful. Jhana training is extremely rigorous in Ceremonial HM, which is why I can activate most of them in one fluid motion. That's the way it's taught in CM: You use one attainment to immediately piggyback to another in a rapid manner similar to Dzogchen. 

That said, a Warning: I'm troubled by the "Wait, does that stuff actually work!? Sounds like fun!" approach from many of the Buddhists here who have learned to make a thing or two happen via the 4th jhana. You want to expand your "powers", I get that. CM is a very aggressive approach if you get your hands on the right materials: It goes straight for divinity's throat. Sturgeon's Law applies: 90% of it is crap; the other 10% potentially dangerous (but highly effective), especially for a skilled meditator. 

To answer your question, I would not go to CM to aid with enlightenment. It's rapture and A&P city. You go there for the God Model -see MTCB- the mantras or to enhance your Magickal repertoire, not for enlightenment. It's not that it's not a valid model. I just know what you'd have to do and where you'd have to go and the trade offs you'd have to make to get to Adeptus Exemptus or higher. That said, if you're dead set on it, I'll point you to the real thing. 
Matthew Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Thanks for the info David  and those arw great maps.  I'm personally  using thaeeavada maps..  basically Ingrams and sayadow as far as vipasana in  concerned.    As far as jhana . I'm not sure.  Basically  anapasati and I'll see what happens.  Wasn't sure if there was some light magic to produce 1st 2 jhanas.  I would try it.  But that's a out all
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Matthew Jon Rousseau:
Thanks for the info David  and those arw great maps.  I'm personally  using thaeeavada maps..  basically Ingrams and sayadow as far as vipasana in  concerned.    As far as jhana . I'm not sure.  Basically  anapasati and I'll see what happens.  Wasn't sure if there was some light magic to produce 1st 2 jhanas.  I would try it.  But that's a out all

Crowley: Meditation as a Development of the Human Brain 

http://www.pauladaunt.com/books/Aleister-Crowley-Meditation.pdf

Lectures on Yoga: 
http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/Eight%20Lectures%20on%20Yoga.pdf

Liber E vel Exercitiorum sub figurâ IX "Dharana" 
https://www.thelemistas.org/en/MSS/Bjorge/SpiritualExercises/09-meditation


David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Matthew Jon Rousseau:
Thanks for the info David  and those arw great maps.  I'm personally  using thaeeavada maps..  basically Ingrams and sayadow as far as vipasana in  concerned.    As far as jhana . I'm not sure.  Basically  anapasati and I'll see what happens.  Wasn't sure if there was some light magic to produce 1st 2 jhanas.  I would try it.  But that's a out all

Magick in Theory and Practice by Aleister Crowley https://invisiblehouse.org/pdf/liber004_3.pdf

Check those out. They should help your practice significantly. I include this last one only because it is the definitive guide on the magickal worldview in the West. 

David K
Matthew Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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David Kyle Spencer:
This particular Map I know like the back of my hand. emoticon

KCHGA (Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel) is going to correspond to A&P, but we're talking about two very, very different phenemenon. Meeting your HGA corresponds to Adeptus Minor: 5=6. After that, you'll hit 6=5, Adeptus Major, fairly quickly. It takes ten years on average to go from 5=6 to 7=4, Adeptus Exemptus, but that's not set in stone by any means. 

Rules of the Road for 5=6, Adeptus Minor:
This is where the HGA steers. You're just along for the ride. Don't bother with the G.Dawn or A.A. stuff at this level, unless you feel that your life doesn't already have enough drama in it, and feel compelled to add in some more. You'll do way better focusing on the jhanas and insight meditation. If you want something with a "k" on the end of it to read, read some of Crowley's non-ritual stuff. (There's a little known A.C. variant of the LBRP using the unicursal hexagram, but it's fairly cruel and you should be avoiding that sort of mindset as a 5=6.) 

Rules of the Road for 6=5, Adeptus Major: A Thoth deck + the Book of Thoth are going to become your new best friends, along with 777. My only advice here is to stay the hell away from Enochian Magick, anything Goetia -like, or Chaos/OTO stuff you might think you can control, but probably can't. Above all stay out of the Aethyrs. 6=5 is like an old Yellow Pages book: Just because you can call anyone in the book and make things happen, doesn't mean you should. There is always blowback.

Here's my concern vis-a-vis your comments on HGA as a prep for the Abyss...yeah, it corresponds to The Dark Night. But in the system you're referring to, the Dark Night is personified.

Do you know who I'm referring to? Ok, well in the system you're talking about Dark Nighting in, you've got to evoke that personification via Liber 418 to pass over. (Stream Entry) My question is Why the %&$^% you'd want to. Why wouldn't you just use the POI map, or any other map to attain SE? Using Crowley's method multiplies the danger of The Dark Night exponentially.  

What is the poi map?  I'm using INGRAMS  map.  ....... this is fascinating  stuff. I used to read alot about crowly system.  I'll  never practice it  but its fascinating   stuff  .I wont  be invoking  choronzon soon sounds to dangerous (it has dri en people  insane)
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

Posts: 48 Join Date: 11/21/19 Recent Posts
Matthew Jon Rousseau:
David Kyle Spencer:
This particular Map I know like the back of my hand. emoticon

KCHGA (Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel) is going to correspond to A&P, but we're talking about two very, very different phenemenon. Meeting your HGA corresponds to Adeptus Minor: 5=6. After that, you'll hit 6=5, Adeptus Major, fairly quickly. It takes ten years on average to go from 5=6 to 7=4, Adeptus Exemptus, but that's not set in stone by any means. 

Rules of the Road for 5=6, Adeptus Minor:
This is where the HGA steers. You're just along for the ride. Don't bother with the G.Dawn or A.A. stuff at this level, unless you feel that your life doesn't already have enough drama in it, and feel compelled to add in some more. You'll do way better focusing on the jhanas and insight meditation. If you want something with a "k" on the end of it to read, read some of Crowley's non-ritual stuff. (There's a little known A.C. variant of the LBRP using the unicursal hexagram, but it's fairly cruel and you should be avoiding that sort of mindset as a 5=6.) 

Rules of the Road for 6=5, Adeptus Major: A Thoth deck + the Book of Thoth are going to become your new best friends, along with 777. My only advice here is to stay the hell away from Enochian Magick, anything Goetia -like, or Chaos/OTO stuff you might think you can control, but probably can't. Above all stay out of the Aethyrs. 6=5 is like an old Yellow Pages book: Just because you can call anyone in the book and make things happen, doesn't mean you should. There is always blowback.

Here's my concern vis-a-vis your comments on HGA as a prep for the Abyss...yeah, it corresponds to The Dark Night. But in the system you're referring to, the Dark Night is personified.

Do you know who I'm referring to? Ok, well in the system you're talking about Dark Nighting in, you've got to evoke that personification via Liber 418 to pass over. (Stream Entry) My question is Why the %&$^% you'd want to. Why wouldn't you just use the POI map, or any other map to attain SE? Using Crowley's method multiplies the danger of The Dark Night exponentially.  

What is the poi map?  I'm using INGRAMS  map.  ....... this is fascinating  stuff. I used to read alot about crowly system.  I'll  never practice it  but its fascinating   stuff  .I wont  be invoking  choronzon soon sounds to dangerous (it has dri en people  insane)

Not to go all HP Lovecraft on you, but in the circles you're talking about we usually refer to the personification as He Who Cannot Be Named.

http://dharmatreasure.org/wp-content/uploads/Meditation-and-Insight-III.pdf

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/506fcc5c84aefb9a79a610b3/1349504092518/Pathways.jpg
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Matthew, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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There is a series of books by Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford that explores this exact correlation. They used to hang out here. The books occasionally go waaaay off the rails, but the meat of them is excellent. They're out of print and available for free on archive.org at the permission of the authors. They are called: The Blood of the Saints, The Urn, A Desert of Roses.

But yes, what's been said here is the basic idea. When the entire path is considered as one giant meta-POI, K&C is A&P, the Abyss is the Dark Knight, Post-Abyss is Equanimity, Ippissimus is Nirvana.
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Bravo, Matthew! Just so. Except you left out the part where you scare yourself to death.

Crawling the Tree of Life looks great on paper. It's a testament to ingenuity of the Hebrew Q'abbalists that they managed to create the first (semi) Western Maps of Attainment. Avoiding Gematria, Jewish HM is extremely thorough and consistent.

But Modern CM is not that. Daniel went on about Magick and A.C. for three or four pages in MHCB, we have a sub for it here on DhO, so if it seems like  I'm climbing up on a soapbox here, it's because I am:

 By incorporating everything from from Eliphas Levi to Theosophy-nonsense to High Middle Ages grimoires like The Goetia (trans: "The howling" for fairly spot on reasons), The Golden Dawn turned CM into makyo-land. Makyo, for those of you unfamiliar with the term, is all that frightening, disorienting, delusive stuff that happens when you meditate, prior and post A&P.

When Crowley fused GD with Hardcore Buddhism, Kundalini, Sex Tantra and his own particular brand of wild child crazy, he turned it into super makyo land. Modern CM is a path that treats the delusional byproducts of meditation as the objective, reveling in A&P, and the situation is such that apart from A.C., virtually no one has convincingly achieved Equanimity.

If I seem particularly passionate on the subject, here's why: With the Maps we have now, and the skill level DhO members would bring with them, playing with Enochian or Thelema would be like handing a toddler a Tommy Gun. Everything would "work", probably on the first go around. Calling the Aethyrs would work. The Lemegeton would work. GK of S would probably work. Mass of Chron. would work. Haitian Papa Legba stuff would work. And it's all personified, which means they'd need a Path specific solution when it all went sideways.

To recap:
  • They don't have the training to handle personification.
  • The Dark Nights would be catastrophic without a Magister on hand. (Good luck finding a real one!)
  • Most of them would scare themselves silly.
  • A few might go clinically insane.
  • The karma mass production would be mindblowing.
  • They would get the complete and undivided attention of Murphy's Law.
  • They'd make themselves physically ill with certain aspects of it.
  • The hallucinations would be off the charts.
  • whether or not this was only happening in their own minds and the minds of those around them would be completely incidental.
  • Most of it would be a complete and total distraction from Stream Entry.
  • Most of the support groups they'd be able to find online would be just as crazy and downstream w/o a paddle as they are.

Off my soapbox. 

DK
Matthew Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Ok dark night so we should  stick  with straight  pragmatic buddhism.  I was kind of planning on that a anyway.  Can I ask what level your at on In sight?  You seem knowledgable 
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Matthew Jon Rousseau:
Ok dark night so we should  stick  with straight  pragmatic buddhism.  I was kind of planning on that a anyway.  Can I ask what level your at on In sight?  You seem knowledgable 


I'm still working that out. It built up over a period of days, I'm not exactly certain anymore. Ultimately, I used an unconventional method centered around the Heart Sutra but got a huge boost from reading the right thing in the right state of mind at the right time. Repeated again early yesterday morning, but faster. I'm making a third run at it in an hour or two to establish further proof of repeatability. 

Take this map: 

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/506fcc35e4b04b0e1036b72e/1349504053737/APmindmapcolorschaos.jpg

Start in aqua blue areas.
Next, follow the line-paths to the center Arising and Passing Away marked "4."
Proceeding to the pink box entitled "Perceptual Threshold Effects."
From Perceptual Threshold Effects -----> (dark orange) "Explosions of Consciousness"
From Explosions of Consciousness----> AP Event/Point of No Return 
From AP/No Return ----> Unitive Experience (Pink)
From Unitive Experience --- > Non Dual Experience (Gray)
From Non Dual ----> Subjhanic Effects (Yellow)
Subjhanic ----> Unknowing/Vanishing Events (Pink)

...at this juncture at a point not marked are missing/edited split second sequence as my eyesight "inverted" and a stranger's face dissappeared from the mirror* (See Note below), possibly some sort of light Fruition, after which things got tricky.

I could have been in Formlessness or a Frozen Moment, not sure which. I do know that I got to
-----> Deeper Understanding of the Three Characteristics (Orange) ---> Arising and Passing Away (4)
landing -----> back home into the aqua blue in a downscale  

Note [1] *I was able to repeat this phenomenon early morning yesterday by following the exact same sequences and "stretch the edit", which is utterly paradoxical as I was not present as either Self or Observer, "hold it open" being my final thought.

Prior to this was another event which bounced around from Arising and Passing Away----> Emotional Effects/Confidence areas (swimming pool blue) returning again to Aqua, where I was able to repeat my original trajectory through the Non-Dual Door at a faster clip and "stretch the edit" which then downphased into my first experience of Equanimity which was distinctly Taoistic in nature. Neither Self or Observer was present, so again quite paradoxical as to how I knew it was happening. This faded relatively quickly, after 30 mins or so followed by Equanimity afterbuzz.

Woke up with the most single painful nightmare I've ever had, so awful that I was in agony even though I knew I was awake. Absolutely wracked with dispair. Extremely lucid, not a normal brain-flush. Hopefully just a wakeup call from rather than pre-esque vu, wife had same themed nightmare with slightly different details.  
Matthew Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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That's amazing.   Non conventional  practice.   Lol. If you produced this effect o er the coarse  of a couple of days. Tour background  in magik helped..   I've had such experiences using ayahuasca years ago. I. Cant repeat this with bare insight
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Matthew Jon Rousseau:
That's amazing.   Non conventional  practice.   Lol. If you produced this effect o er the coarse  of a couple of days. Tour background  in magik helped..   I've had such experiences using ayahuasca years ago. I. Cant repeat this with bare insight

Can you solve a Zen koan? (Satori)
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Matthew, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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I agree with your initial assessment of the situation that weird 19th-century eclecticism and exoticism turned magic into makyo-land. However, I strongly disagree that this is reason pragmatic dharma explorers should avoid magic. On the contrary, this is the reason we need more dharma in our magic. Dharma may be the best hope for doing magic effectively and without getting lost in delusion!

The reason modern magic is makyo city is because it is a broken lineage that lacks the right metaphysical toolbox. The end of the Enlightenment (an ironic name) severed the embodied connection to the spiritual, and all our attempts to get it back, including the 19th-century occult revival, have been groping for a light switch in the dark. If one is an eternalist, all the strange, symbolized, personified phenomena get taken literally, which is itself the state of ignorance; this means any rogue impulse can lead the magician astray. If one is a nihilist, all the phenomena get devalued, and nothing actually happens; or worse, something happens and the magician is totally unprepared.

But Buddhadharma gives us that toolbox back! With its insights, we can safely engage with these weird and wonderful phenomena without making either mistake of eternalism or nihilism.

What if a magical practitioner could dive into Thelema, already experientially understanding emptiness, and loving it as Nuit? What if they could dive into Goetia as practice for the bardo? What if they could experience the HGA as a guru-yoga-like conduit of wisdom?

So I disagree that dharma practice makes magic more dangerous. Maybe concentration without insight does, but with insight it does not. Quite the contrary. Insight into the nature of phenomena is precisely what protects us from getting lost in magic-land. 
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Matthew:
I agree with your initial assessment of the situation that weird 19th-century eclecticism and exoticism turned magic into makyo-land. However, I strongly disagree that this is reason pragmatic dharma explorers should avoid magic. On the contrary, this is the reason we need more dharma in our magic. Dharma may be the best hope for doing magic effectively and without getting lost in delusion!

The reason modern magic is makyo city is because it is a broken lineage that lacks the right metaphysical toolbox. The end of the Enlightenment (an ironic name) severed the embodied connection to the spiritual, and all our attempts to get it back, including the 19th-century occult revival, have been groping for a light switch in the dark. If one is an eternalist, all the strange, symbolized, personified phenomena get taken literally, which is itself the state of ignorance; this means any rogue impulse can lead the magician astray. If one is a nihilist, all the phenomena get devalued, and nothing actually happens; or worse, something happens and the magician is totally unprepared.

But Buddhadharma gives us that toolbox back! With its insights, we can safely engage with these weird and wonderful phenomena without making either mistake of eternalism or nihilism.

What if a magical practitioner could dive into Thelema, already experientially understanding emptiness, and loving it as Nuit? What if they could dive into Goetia as practice for the bardo? What if they could experience the HGA as a guru-yoga-like conduit of wisdom?

So I disagree that dharma practice makes magic more dangerous. Maybe concentration without insight does, but with insight it does not. Quite the contrary. Insight into the nature of phenomena is precisely what protects us from getting lost in magic-land. 

There's nothing conceptually wrong with your argument...but again, something gets brushed under the carpet: We'd have to do the reinventing! 
Matthew Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Did you do the sex magic or try fire kasina. ? I do t. Believe there are any magical lodges in new england where I am. I'd like to learn
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Matthew Jon Rousseau:
Did you do the sex magic or try fire kasina. ? I do t. Believe there are any magical lodges in new england where I am. I'd like to learn

I don't know your sexual preferences but I know what the OTO is and what it does and you might be less than charmed. I was of the impression that you were talking about sweeping the old guard aside. 
Matthew Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Is the too still  around ? Does it produce results?  Possibly  getting to the AP .. I'm straight  but dont have problems with  others sexuality. But I wont harm anyone e
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Sorry, I got my Matthews mixed up there. 

Do you have any experience with Zen koans?
Matthew Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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David Kyle Spencer:
Matthew Jon Rousseau:
Did you do the sex magic or try fire kasina. ? I do t. Believe there are any magical lodges in new england where I am. I'd like to learn

I don't know your sexual preferences but I know what the OTO is and what it does and you might be less than charmed. I was of the impression that you were talking about sweeping the old guard aside. 

The OTO has an oasis In Salem Massachusetts. Its. Called the nights templar lodge .they practiced gnostic masses and magic.i might check it out
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Matthew, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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David Kyle Spencer:
There's nothing conceptually wrong with your argument...but again, something gets brushed under the carpet: We'd have to do the reinventing! 
Would there need to be reinventing, though? My point is that the techniques are not bad. The only difference is the view they are embedded in. If you approach them with a different view, the same techniques can be done more safely. Firing off a sigil is fine. Learning things from spirits is fine. Failing to integrate those experiences by proliferating tons of concepts taken at face value is where it goes off the rails. Fixing that doesn't require a change in technique, only a change in view.
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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You'd have to gain access to those rites in the first place. Not the publicly available stuff, either: The Modern Golden Dawn texts, members-only A.A. documents and most difficult of all, the hidden OTO texts. The published stuff is just for outsiders. 

Fortunately, these cliques are always blackballing and suspending people and those guys get lonely because no one's allowed to speak with them while they're in exile. That's only lodge by lodge, though, which is how I obtained all their inner docs over IRC in 1998. Went something like: 

#93
#93
#What's up? Where did everyone go?
#bastards blackballed me. 
#wtf? Catfight or politics? 
#catfight
#weak. Don't let it get in ur head man, that's what those #$&$#%\$% want.
#i know. I'm thinking about just saying screw it, take off to one of the southwest lodge
#if ur that sick of the bs then do what thou wilt
#definitely
#hey u see that new mass of baphomet
#of course
#tried it?
#not yet u know that's only good for one shot
#yeah. I had to dl it again because all my filz got wiped, IX degree, X, XI u name it
#ah dude that's np here's my ftp 
#sweet! Appreciated man
#np
#Aiwass
#Aiwass
#93
#93

...bit more complicated than that, but yeah. Information wants to be free.

The bigger problem, as I see it, is that you seem to think that these orgs are going to welcome you and be grateful you fixed their shoddy rituals for them. 
Matthew Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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They  dont like new members? 
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

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Matthew Jon Rousseau:
They  dont like new members? 

http://knightstemplar-oto.org/membership-initiation.html

Might want to brush up on your Thelema first. 
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Matthew, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

Posts: 92 Join Date: 10/31/19 Recent Posts
Ooh. I think I’m beginning to see the origins of our disagreement. I’m advocating magic as a practice, and you’re pointing out its (real) problems as a social institution. So we’re sort of talking past each other. 

I don’t really give a rat’s tail about the specific secrets then GD or OTO has. Those require you to subscribe to their specific cosmology and symbol set already, so to me they’re useless. I care about magic as a practice which deals with the resonance between symbol and reality. Within those parameters it can take lots of forms, though, without being bound by a lodge. The use of things like the tree of life has expanded way outside formal lodge contexts, because it’s useful there. That’s a good thing. 

To hell with the OTO. Magic has existed before them and will exist after them.
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

Posts: 48 Join Date: 11/21/19 Recent Posts
Matthew:
Ooh. I think I’m beginning to see the origins of our disagreement. I’m advocating magic as a practice, and you’re pointing out its (real) problems as a social institution. So we’re sort of talking past each other. 

I don’t really give a rat’s tail about the specific secrets then GD or OTO has. Those require you to subscribe to their specific cosmology and symbol set already, so to me they’re useless. I care about magic as a practice which deals with the resonance between symbol and reality. Within those parameters it can take lots of forms, though, without being bound by a lodge. The use of things like the tree of life has expanded way outside formal lodge contexts, because it’s useful there. That’s a good thing. 

To hell with the OTO. Magic has existed before them and will exist after them.

What parts were you planning on keeping? 
Matthew Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

Posts: 70 Join Date: 10/6/19 Recent Posts
Did you do the sex magic or try fire kasina. ? I do t. Believe there are any magical lodges in new england where I am. I'd like to learn
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Fitter Stoke, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

Posts: 489 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
Matthew Jon Rousseau:
Ok. It's pretty clear that the dark night stages and dukkha nanas  correlate  with crossing the great outer abyss.  My question.  Which stage and which nanas (mctb2) would correlate with contact with the Holy Guardian Angel?.....  the HGA stage  is supposed to be achieved  before  crossing the Abyss.   it is usually  accompanied by all kinds of super natural  and perceptual  phenomena.       I'm guessing  the AP .  I'm not sure

As early as "The Psychology of Hashish Part 2" (1909) and as late as Magick Without Tears (1942 or thereabouts), Crowley correlated Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel with a trance he called Atmadarshana. In his diary of 1906, it also seems correlated with the trance of Nirvalkalpa Samadhi. I'm not entirely sure where the term Atmadarshana comes from, but Crowley describes it in Book 4, Part I. Nirvalkalpa Samadhi comes from Patanjali, and some commentators think the phenomenology of it is similar to formless realms. 

The situation is complicated a little more by his diary from 1908—published in Equinox I:1 as John St. John—where he identifies K&C with Nirodha Samapatti. That and the 1906 diaries are really good for working out not only the phenomenology of K&C but also the practices Crowley used to achieve it. 

Another good source for Knowledge & Conversation is the chapter on the "Beatific Vision" in Little Essays Toward Truth. 

In "The Psychology of Hashish Part 2" he links attainment to the grade of Magister Templi (8=3) also with attainment to the formless realms but also cautions against any quick and easy identification between this grade and particular trance states. In The Wake World, he describes crossing the Abyss allegorically, but it's clear that he's speaking here of seeing through the khandas or "aggregates". In general he describes "Mahasatippathana"—what we would call "vipassana"—as extremely useful for attaining to 5=6 and anything above it. Since all the grades above Babe of the Abyss (the grade just past 7=4) involve a very deep understanding of the Three Characteristics, the usefulness of vipassana here makes a lot of sense. 

Another important piece of information is that crossing the Abyss also requires the transcendence of reason. This is done by equilibrating every thought with its opposite. The culmination of this is the creation of a complete intellectual picture of the universe at the grade of 7=4. 7=4 corresponds with Chesed, which corresponds with the Demiurge in Crowley's scheme. This total intellectual picture is then combined with its opposite, thereby annihilating the entire universe. (For individuals at this stage of spiritual development, Crowley wrote Liber 333 or the Book of Lies, one of his greatest works IMO.) 

Crossing the Abyss then results in a state very similar to what the Pyrronists and Epicureans referred to as ataraxia or indifference to circumstance. It's interesting that Pyrrho's suggested way of attaining to this state ("equipolence" of contradictory statements) is similar to Crowley's.

There's also a "Zen" flavor to the grades above the Abyss. 8=3 involves not only the understanding of dukkha but rather seeing the identity between joy and suffering. Magus (9=2) involves the identity of change and stability. Ipsissimus (10=1) involves identity between self and anatta. (See Liber I vel Magi for more.)

Moving back a little bit, the "function" of the Outer College of A∴A∴ is "Destruction," and its ordeal is "Resurrection". (You can see a summary of the work of the Three Grades of A∴A∴ here.) The idea is that one is in natural or run-of-the-mill human condition—"Among the Shells" or Qliphoth as it were—and this is symbolized by the swathings of the corpse of Osiris. The work of the Outer College is to loosen these rags, to ignite a spiritual fire within—symbolized by Hadit or Harpocrates—and to reemerge from the "tomb". The entire process is correlated with the Nigredo phase in alchemy or the blackening of the First Matter. (You can read Crowley's comparison between alchemy and initiation in Chapter XX of Magick in Theory and Practice.) I take all this to mean that the work of the Outer College is really the working through of the Dark Night of the Soul. (In fact, Crowley explicitly relates the path of Qoph to the Dark Night, and generally speaking, the work of the Outer College follows the I.A.O. formula, which you can read about in Chapter V of Magick in Theory and Practice.) 

Crowley's system was an attempt at a universal form of spirituality. As such, it is not strictly speaking eastern or western. Both attainments and practices from many traditions are put side-by-side and taught simultaneously. He was continuing a tradition in the west that went back at least as far as Blavatsky and continues down to the present day. The problem with trying to fit something like K&C within a Buddhist scheme is that it's not really a Buddhist attainment at all. It's a Platonic attainment. Crowley seems to have been strongly influenced by Iamblichus's "On the Mysteries" when he developed this doctrine. Iamblichus was relying on the Platonism of Plotinus and, well, Plato when he formulated his ideas. I think Crowley quite brilliantly realized that the One of Platonism was functionally indistinguishable from "emptiness" in Buddhism. But the problem with fitting the HGA to Buddhism is that the HGA relies upon a particular tiered model of the cosmos that just doesn't exist in Buddhism. In Buddhism, everything you need for attainment is immanent within experience itself. That's no the case in Platonism or spiritualities based on Platonism where you have to appeal to divine intermediaries on different planes of reality. So I think you have to be careful when you're trying to correlate spiritual experiences from one tradition with another. 

Anyway, hopefully that's helpful.
David Kyle Spencer, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Western esoteric magic and Daniel's mctb map

Posts: 48 Join Date: 11/21/19 Recent Posts
Look who studied up on M. Therion! Crowley described three methods for traversing the abyss, though. The intellectual annihilation by opposites approach was just one of them, and actually not the method he chose for himself. 

For those who don't buy into the A.A/OTO system, 777 is probably Crowley's tour de force- though he would strongly disagree - and 418 V&V and the Book of Thoth are also works of layered brilliance, however agnostic the reader. Crowley's introduction to the Goetia and even Moonchild were marvelous, even if the character development in the latter was not. 

Restated: Liber 777 is a skeleton key that is almost a requirement for decoding the rest of Crowleyana;but once you've read the rest of Crowleyana, you begin to appreciate how implicit most of it is right there (as dry and dusty as it may seem at first blush) in 777.

But all these equivalences, as illuminating as they may be, are a touch too neat: Crossing the Abyss in the Crowleyan sense means being more than a Stream Enterer. 9 = 2 is not just about change and stability. (The actual ritual involves crucifying a frog.) Nor did Crowley believe the level of Magus to be that of, say, a Zen Boddhisattva. To be a Magus is to be a Buddha, a Christ, a Krishna, not a Boddhiharma, or a St. Francis or a Krishnamurti. What Hegel would refer to as A World Historical Figure.

In that sense, you are correct that A.C. aimed for a universal system, but perhaps he aimed too high. For the Ipsissimus must step into the light and back out again, and proclaim their Law, which immediately is put into universal effect for an aeon. Do you see any evidence, as yet, that Do What Thou Wilt is gaining ground in the sense of Buddha's original Sangha, or the early Christians painting fish on their chests and proliferating in the back alleys of Rome?

I don't. I see A.C. as an Arahant who got carried away due to manic depression in an era without mood stabilizers. Arahants, Boddhisattvas and Saints have a definite knack for creating sects or refinements like Zen and Yoga, but do not seem to found lasting religions. In that aspect, Frater P. appears to have fallen short.

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