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Non-dual/Immediate

Non-duality is the default

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Non-duality is the default spatial 12/4/19 9:24 AM
RE: Non-duality is the default Matthew 12/4/19 10:19 AM
RE: Non-duality is the default Chris Marti 12/4/19 11:38 AM
RE: Non-duality is the default spatial 12/4/19 1:03 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default spatial 12/4/19 1:12 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Chris Marti 12/4/19 1:41 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default terry 12/5/19 3:34 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default David Kyle Spencer 12/4/19 12:15 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Chris Marti 12/4/19 12:28 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Jake Frankfurt Middenhall 12/4/19 2:13 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/4/19 2:32 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Jake Frankfurt Middenhall 12/4/19 3:04 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/4/19 3:35 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default T 12/5/19 6:34 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Mista Tibbs 12/4/19 4:17 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/5/19 7:25 AM
RE: Non-duality is the default Bardo 12/5/19 12:20 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/5/19 12:44 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Bardo 12/5/19 4:49 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default T 12/5/19 6:49 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Stirling Campbell 12/4/19 5:12 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default terry 12/5/19 4:24 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Stirling Campbell 12/6/19 5:21 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default terry 12/5/19 4:02 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/4/19 1:52 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Mista Tibbs 12/4/19 2:39 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/4/19 3:25 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/5/19 7:01 AM
RE: Non-duality is the default shargrol 12/4/19 4:41 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Chris Marti 12/5/19 6:46 AM
RE: Non-duality is the default terry 12/5/19 4:27 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default spatial 12/5/19 8:57 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default shargrol 12/6/19 5:12 AM
RE: Non-duality is the default terry 12/6/19 5:02 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Stirling Campbell 12/6/19 5:24 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Stirling Campbell 12/6/19 5:26 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default terry 12/6/19 6:12 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default terry 12/5/19 4:20 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default Ernest Michael Olmos 12/5/19 1:15 PM
RE: Non-duality is the default terry 12/5/19 2:29 PM
Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 9:24 AM
Here's my insight for today:

Stop looking for non-duality. Non-duality is the default mode of perception. It's what you're doing most of the day. What you want to be looking for is duality.

Please discuss.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 10:19 AM as a reply to spatial.
I think the difference here is between how mind is vs how it is related to. In my experience, most people by default relate to things dualistically, which is itself the ignorance. They are doing non-duality "under the hood" because that's how mind actually is. But until they can become aware of it through insight practice (which will naturally uncover it around 3rd path), techniques aimed specifically at cutting through duality (like Tantra or Mahamudra), or direct pointing-out, their default way of relating will be dualistic. Simply telling them to drop duality without being aware of the alternative becomes a recipe for neuroticism. They must re-establish how they relate to how their mind is, which is naturally non-dual.

So this seems like a great instruction for the point after this initial recognition occurs.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 11:38 AM as a reply to spatial.
Non-duality is the default mode of perception.

How so?

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 12:15 PM as a reply to spatial.
spatial:
Here's my insight for today:

Stop looking for non-duality. Non-duality is the default mode of perception. It's what you're doing most of the day. What you want to be looking for is duality.

Please discuss.

No Self is what you're doing most of the day. Non-duality can only be caught in glimpses.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 12:28 PM as a reply to David Kyle Spencer.
I'd really like to hear what spatial has to say about this and why he posted that coment. In my experience, it will be interesting and make us all think.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 1:03 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Non-duality is the default mode of perception.

How so?


I had an experience this morning which prompted this post. I'm now questioning whether I'm talking about it in a coherent way, but I'm fairly certain that what I saw is real and significant. 

I'm not convinced there is such a thing as a "non-dual experience"...the fact that I know I'm aware implies that I have constructed an observer. But that observer is not a fixed entity...it seems to be constructed after the fact, and is based very much on the thing being observed. This is why I say it's all non-dual by default. The duality only seems to creep in when there is a need for a distinct observer.

OK, what I'm saying is confusing, and may be contradictory. That is why I want help sorting this out. 

When I turn my attention to the feeling of my hands on the keyboard, I can feel myself "coming out of non-duality". First, there is the feeling of the keyboard itself. It has a quality of "keyboard-ness". Nothing to do with hands (AND YET, this is still a dual experience: "keyboard-ness" has been selected out of the field for special treatment). Next, I am aware of hands on the keyboard. Next, I'm aware that they are my hands on the keyboard. Etc.

I think what I'm reacting to here is the tendency for people to refer to experiences near the beginning of that chain as "non-dual", because they only occur in glimpses, and they seem to precede the construction of the observer. The moment you realize you're experiencing something, you start constructing an experiencer, so it's hard to stay there for very long. But, it seems to me that it's only a matter of degree. 

Let me try to sum it up again: Instead of idealizing those brief experiences as being "non-dual", why not just accept that they are indeed somewhere on the spectrum of duality? The alternative seems to be a recipe for madness, as you chase this possibly nonsensical notion of "experiencing without an experiencer". 

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 1:12 PM as a reply to spatial.
To clarify again: The reason I'm saying it's "nondual by default" is because I suspect that most experiences most of the time fall near the beginning of the chain. I think I'm walking around most of the day only experiencing "keyboard-ness" without "me observing the keyboard". But, I don't notice it most of the time. And when those experiences are noticed in meditation (which is normally a super highly charged experience of self-ing), they stand out as being special. But they're not. That's what I suspect.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 1:41 PM as a reply to spatial.
spatial --

I think what I'm reacting to here is the tendency for people to refer to experiences near the beginning of that chain as "non-dual", because they only occur in glimpses, and they seem to precede the construction of the observer. The moment you realize you're experiencing something, you start constructing an experiencer, so it's hard to stay there for very long. But, it seems to me that it's only a matter of degree. 

Let me try to sum it up again: Instead of idealizing those brief experiences as being "non-dual", why not just accept that they are indeed somewhere on the spectrum of duality? The alternative seems to be a recipe for madness, as you chase this possibly nonsensical notion of "experiencing without an experiencer". 

I get what you're saying now. Well stated. Of course, this all happens very quickly and so the default mode of experience, until you look very, very closely, includes both observer and observed (subject/object).

What you are describing is more aptly (in my opinion) called "the chain of dependent origination." 

This also a reason why it's kind of silly for anyone to say that they live permanently in non-duality, or in duality. Our experience is actually both, as you have illustrated.

emoticon

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 1:52 PM as a reply to spatial.
It seems like duality is something that small children need to learn. They certainly learn it very fast, but they still need to learn it, so it really shouldn't be that difficult to just... not do the many layers of constructions. And yet that's what most people cannot help but doing. I bet nondual awareness is still there, no matter what else we do. Somehow most people just aren't comfortable with it, and so they blank out those aspects of consciousness. Being centerless is probably too scary.

Not saying that there's something wrong with constructions. They are life, after all.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 2:13 PM as a reply to David Kyle Spencer.
David Kyle Spencer:
spatial:
Here's my insight for today:

Stop looking for non-duality. Non-duality is the default mode of perception. It's what you're doing most of the day. What you want to be looking for is duality.

Please discuss.

No Self is what you're doing most of the day. Non-duality can only be caught in glimpses.
This. Even if you are an Arhat, you are just realizing the emptiness of the person, saying that non duality is the default mode of perception (emptiness of phenomena) is saying that buddhahood is the default mode of perception, which is not true.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 2:32 PM as a reply to Jake Frankfurt Middenhall.
Words. These are just words. I'm more interested in the experiences behind a statement like this than correct terminology. 

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 2:39 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
It seems like duality is something that small children need to learn.

I agree. I am secondary caregiver to my younger brother, who was diagnosed with severe autism. He has difficulties with human-made concepts in general. If he is sitting on a chair, who's to say the chair is not a part of him? The idea that he is separate from it just doesn't make sense to him, but he does have a perceived self at all times, it just simply spills over to anything he is in contact with. This too extends into the realm of experience. Overstimulation causes him to regress into his thought process and it seems to me that he is no longer in the experience as he has become the experience. 
As Chris said, it is silly to say someone can live permanently in non-duality or in duality. As for my brother, his orientation is constantly returning to his body and its physical boundaries of sensation, just to spill out again. But being centerless is not scary, it's actually beautiful... when there is no center, everything becomes the center. The entire field of experience just is. It is just too grand for the parameters you are trying to fit it into

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 3:04 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Indeed. From your own experience, do you realize that all phenomena is empty in a insight(experiental) way of understanding or do you only realize the self is empty? tell me about it please. I don´t really know because im not there.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 3:25 PM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs:
It seems like duality is something that small children need to learn.

I agree. I am secondary caregiver to my younger brother, who was diagnosed with severe autism. He has difficulties with human-made concepts in general. If he is sitting on a chair, who's to say the chair is not a part of him? The idea that he is separate from it just doesn't make sense to him, but he does have a perceived self at all times, it just simply spills over to anything he is in contact with. This too extends into the realm of experience. Overstimulation causes him to regress into his thought process and it seems to me that he is no longer in the experience as he has become the experience. 
As Chris said, it is silly to say someone can live permanently in non-duality or in duality. As for my brother, his orientation is constantly returning to his body and its physical boundaries of sensation, just to spill out again. But being centerless is not scary, it's actually beautiful... when there is no center, everything becomes the center. The entire field of experience just is. It is just too grand for the parameters you are trying to fit it into

I'm autistic too, and I have quite a few autistic friends. We tend to think human-made concepts are too simplistic to do justice to reality, and many of us have experiences of being one with the nature or with sensory experiences. Those experiences are beautiful, just like you say. However, because of our diagnosis, people tend to pathologize them. Yet people travel all over the world to go to retreats to have similar experiences. I'm glad to see that you see the beauty in them and refrain from pathologizing. 

Just to clarify, I don't find those experiences scary. I was talking about people. You know, typical people.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 3:35 PM as a reply to Jake Frankfurt Middenhall.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
Indeed. From your own experience, do you realize that all phenomena is empty in a insight(experiental) way of understanding or do you only realize the self is empty? tell me about it please. I don´t really know because im not there.

Well, I don't think I could just see through the pain from having a dentist drilling deep into my teeth and stay completely calm because it's empty. I do get caught up in stuff, especially stuff having to do with my kid's wellbeing. It's pretty clear that there is no essence to it, though, and that allows me to experience space around the feelings pretty often. I'm both a mammal and empty space, sort of, if that makes any sense, and phenomena are both manifest features of a reality that the mammal needs to deal with and empty. 

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 4:17 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Words. These are just words. I'm more interested in the experiences behind a statement like this than correct terminology. 


This happened a few years after I had finished high school. I was going to try Psilocybin mushrooms for the first time. I had already trip-sat 3 friends and my significant other prior on different occasions. I am naturally curious, always have been, and so I decided to partake... I have been meditating since I about 4 years old thought maybe this could translate into practice. The wonderful stories I had heard were enticing but I knew not to have assumptions or expectations... I was skeptical. I ingested 7 and a half grams over 20 minutes with some orange juice to "potencify" them, but that might just be a myth.
To put things into perspective, less than 1 gram is a microdose, 2-3 grams and you're tripping, 5 grams is a "heroic dose", 7 grams and you are a legend.

T 0:40
I normally take very long breaths, each one is like a yawn but not as dramatic as one. I noticed over the first 40 minutes my breathing was following my normal pattern except to no effort on my part, it just happened on its own. My body normally feels light and floaty, but now it was slowly rising ever subtly. It was apparent to me that my body was meditating on its own, every wave of sensation was happening as it should during my meditation. By this point, my buddies would already be on the ground laughing their asses off... Actually, in one particular "trip" my friend found a caterpillar in his first hour, and the rest of his 7-hour trip was spent focused on said caterpillar.
T 1:20
Fast-forwarding to about an hour and a half into my "trip" and It doesn't feel as if this "trip" had ever even started. I was clearly in a meditative state, and closing my eyes would produce geometric patterns, lights, faces, outlines of people. This was not that interesting... as sober me can meditate to induce these very hallucinations and have them last for up to 2 hours after my sits. 
My breathwork was transitioning slowly from my diaphragm rising up my throat and back down to my belly as my lungs were now at full capacity. I could feel my throat expanding allowing air to pass with ease. I can do this in meditation as well, flexing the neck muscles to widen the passage. It was interesting observing the body react independently of "me".
I realized my body was actually performing circular breathing, which was astonishing at first because that is still pretty difficult for me to do on my own.
T 3:00
I spent some time basking in the sensations. It was was my body meditating on its own effortlessly and I realized that when I am sober I'm constantly "flexing" my physical being. This body has a natural flow that it follows. At this point, spiritual sects that talk about a natural frequency of the universe flowing through all things made more sense to me. The breath was now gone, nonexistent.... is what I bet a lot of people start to think. Meditation has taught me that the breath is an anchor, it is always there. I wanted to find it so I closed my eyes and searched. It was almost stunning how shallow it was. I directed my attention to the sensations of the air and saw what I can only describe as... hollowing out a strand of hair and using that as a straw for oxygen. 
T 4:00
I went outside and saw manifestations of free-flowing energy in the air. Everywhere I looked there was a stream of the substance. It was passing through everything, connecting everything. I had seen this before after meditating but not to this degree, it made me more confused. I tried to reason objectively that these cascading currents must always be present and my stimulated phosphenes are allowing me to be aware of them. What we see is only a fraction of a fraction of the color spectrum... what we see is only the result of what can and cannot stop light. I heard from a guru once that there are things that which cannot stop light, and it is important to train to perceive them because they are important for life. It started making more sense. But I also maintained that I could see glimpses of them sober after meditation. As for how I felt... I still felt "normal". 
T 5:00
I was updating my status hourly. This was all intended for investigation rather than for "fun". Life was already fascinating to me... Vibrations were increasing... I was still sat outside looking at everything as I normally do when I sit outside. My being was on this same frequency with everything else... I decided to scope my awareness. In the moment, my entire body was rumbling, but just as the breath can be separated into millions of parts that can then be divided even further, I decided to penetrate this vibration. Every pore on my skin breathing... I "zoomed" in and every cell in my body was in a state of pure ecstasy. I shifted my focus to the nada, and I could easily peel back every layer with medical precision all the way back to its empty echo (which of course is just more layers). I could do all this normally, so none of it was "enlightening" per se. But I couldn't juggle and meditate at the same time, I felt like now I could do such things. But that too wasn't amazing, I thought "yeah, I could just learn how to". Something truly amazing would be some kind of event that is unreplicable.
T 6:00 to 8:00
This is usually known as the "comedown" as the chemicals finally start to pass through the system the individual is usually hit with a depletion of serotonin. During this "comedown" phase, I felt a type of flow state. My thoughts and actions were so fluid. I could think of anything, I could do anything. I am still learning this community's terms but I think this was "stream entry" probably. I had reached this juncture plenty of times so it was nothing really incredible. 
T 12:00 
The "trip" should have ended hours ago but I still felt "normal". I still had access to my current state and that made me more confused. The "trip" never felt like it started and it I didn't feel as if it ended. And how could it end if it hadn't even started? I had a jerk like realization that everything we perceived was just a matter of where awareness is being directed. My "trip" was this life, and it started when I was born.
My physical vibrancy was matching the world around me. I shut off the awareness of the body and placed it on the frequencies happening around me. I become the frequencies... I magnified this awareness further and "became" a single particle on a belt of vibration. The body is just a center of gravity that our brains are obviously wired to continuously return to, for survival purposes of course. During psychedelics, areas of the brain can be turned on to talk to each other and it has also been observed that areas can outright be shut down. because of our sober process, we are always returning to our physicality. But awareness rather than being experienced, can become experience. That is when centerless lies. 

Another benefit was that my meditation was made stronger with these permanent insights. But mushrooms are external, the source of creation is inside us all. searching internally results in more powerful experiences than any drug can ever produce. And they are also unpredictable in nature, I had felt a sort of lack luster to the "trip" anyway. I probably wont be proof-reading this, so sorry for any sloppyness

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 4:41 PM as a reply to spatial.
Good stuff Spatial and Chris.

It can be useful to tease a distinction out between presence and so-called non-duality. Presence is extremely natural and common and could be said to be the default experience in a certain sense. But there is definitely something that happens with dedicated meditation practice: the ability to "see" how the sense of observer is created by a kind of centering around a sensation. 

Yes, the crazy thing is we think the self is one thing, but when we track "selfing" in experience, it jumps around all over the place. Gradually the self-as-sensation sense of identity is seen as not-self, but it doesn't end there. Then we identify with things like the experience of space or the experience of clarity. Those are odd ways of centering around a particular aspect of mind and calling it self, more advanced, but still based on a confusion.

Eventually the "centering" aspect falls away. This could be called fourth path. It's not a state. There can still be "self-sensations" but there is no confusion that it is really a self that needs to be identified with or protective. So it's a more free state of what is normally experience, but not a radically different state.

Still, it's is important to say that "presence" is not the end... unless you have gotten to the end and it's that kind of very rare presence.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/4/19 5:12 PM as a reply to Jake Frankfurt Middenhall.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:

This. Even if you are an Arhat, you are just realizing the emptiness of the person, saying that non duality is the default mode of perception (emptiness of phenomena) is saying that buddhahood is the default mode of perception, which is not true.

Could you break that down further? Are you sure about everything you are saying there? 

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 6:46 AM as a reply to shargrol.
Eventually the "centering" aspect falls away. This could be called fourth path. It's not a state. There can still be "self-sensations" but there is no confusion that it is really a self that needs to be identified with or protective. So it's a more free state of what is normally experience, but not a radically different state.

This is well-said. Centerlessness at first feels almost ridiculously expansive but eventually becomes the norm. (I often get confused about how others experience things and have to stop and remember that they don't have that perspective automatically.) And as you said, it's not that things look, feel or sound different but that they don't appear inside of an artificially constrained mental space. 

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 7:01 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Mista Tibbs:
It seems like duality is something that small children need to learn.

I agree. I am secondary caregiver to my younger brother, who was diagnosed with severe autism. He has difficulties with human-made concepts in general. If he is sitting on a chair, who's to say the chair is not a part of him? The idea that he is separate from it just doesn't make sense to him, but he does have a perceived self at all times, it just simply spills over to anything he is in contact with. This too extends into the realm of experience. Overstimulation causes him to regress into his thought process and it seems to me that he is no longer in the experience as he has become the experience. 
As Chris said, it is silly to say someone can live permanently in non-duality or in duality. As for my brother, his orientation is constantly returning to his body and its physical boundaries of sensation, just to spill out again. But being centerless is not scary, it's actually beautiful... when there is no center, everything becomes the center. The entire field of experience just is. It is just too grand for the parameters you are trying to fit it into

I'm autistic too, and I have quite a few autistic friends. We tend to think human-made concepts are too simplistic to do justice to reality, and many of us have experiences of being one with the nature or with sensory experiences. Those experiences are beautiful, just like you say. However, because of our diagnosis, people tend to pathologize them. Yet people travel all over the world to go to retreats to have similar experiences. I'm glad to see that you see the beauty in them and refrain from pathologizing. 

Just to clarify, I don't find those experiences scary. I was talking about people. You know, typical people.
Just to clarify: I'm not suggesting that autistic people are awakened by default or anything like that. I just think that the point of departure differs from the typical point of departure. It probably means that the challenges differ to some extent. In some very limited respects, we may lack some of the barriers that most people have, but on the other hand we probably have other barriers that most people do not have. 

Also, I think we tend to have the non-dual experiences on a preconceptual level only (or rather on a level that is preverbal but not as finegrained as the levels that are entirely nonconceptual) whereas awakening gives access to non-centered (non-)experiences on other levels as well, which is a much more complete thing and so much more liberating.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 7:25 AM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Words. These are just words. I'm more interested in the experiences behind a statement like this than correct terminology. 


This happened a few years after I had finished high school. I was going to try Psilocybin mushrooms for the first time. I had already trip-sat 3 friends and my significant other prior on different occasions. I am naturally curious, always have been, and so I decided to partake... I have been meditating since I about 4 years old thought maybe this could translate into practice. The wonderful stories I had heard were enticing but I knew not to have assumptions or expectations... I was skeptical. I ingested 7 and a half grams over 20 minutes with some orange juice to "potencify" them, but that might just be a myth.
To put things into perspective, less than 1 gram is a microdose, 2-3 grams and you're tripping, 5 grams is a "heroic dose", 7 grams and you are a legend.

T 0:40
I normally take very long breaths, each one is like a yawn but not as dramatic as one. I noticed over the first 40 minutes my breathing was following my normal pattern except to no effort on my part, it just happened on its own. My body normally feels light and floaty, but now it was slowly rising ever subtly. It was apparent to me that my body was meditating on its own, every wave of sensation was happening as it should during my meditation. By this point, my buddies would already be on the ground laughing their asses off... Actually, in one particular "trip" my friend found a caterpillar in his first hour, and the rest of his 7-hour trip was spent focused on said caterpillar.
T 1:20
Fast-forwarding to about an hour and a half into my "trip" and It doesn't feel as if this "trip" had ever even started. I was clearly in a meditative state, and closing my eyes would produce geometric patterns, lights, faces, outlines of people. This was not that interesting... as sober me can meditate to induce these very hallucinations and have them last for up to 2 hours after my sits. 
My breathwork was transitioning slowly from my diaphragm rising up my throat and back down to my belly as my lungs were now at full capacity. I could feel my throat expanding allowing air to pass with ease. I can do this in meditation as well, flexing the neck muscles to widen the passage. It was interesting observing the body react independently of "me".
I realized my body was actually performing circular breathing, which was astonishing at first because that is still pretty difficult for me to do on my own.
T 3:00
I spent some time basking in the sensations. It was was my body meditating on its own effortlessly and I realized that when I am sober I'm constantly "flexing" my physical being. This body has a natural flow that it follows. At this point, spiritual sects that talk about a natural frequency of the universe flowing through all things made more sense to me. The breath was now gone, nonexistent.... is what I bet a lot of people start to think. Meditation has taught me that the breath is an anchor, it is always there. I wanted to find it so I closed my eyes and searched. It was almost stunning how shallow it was. I directed my attention to the sensations of the air and saw what I can only describe as... hollowing out a strand of hair and using that as a straw for oxygen. 
T 4:00
I went outside and saw manifestations of free-flowing energy in the air. Everywhere I looked there was a stream of the substance. It was passing through everything, connecting everything. I had seen this before after meditating but not to this degree, it made me more confused. I tried to reason objectively that these cascading currents must always be present and my stimulated phosphenes are allowing me to be aware of them. What we see is only a fraction of a fraction of the color spectrum... what we see is only the result of what can and cannot stop light. I heard from a guru once that there are things that which cannot stop light, and it is important to train to perceive them because they are important for life. It started making more sense. But I also maintained that I could see glimpses of them sober after meditation. As for how I felt... I still felt "normal". 
T 5:00
I was updating my status hourly. This was all intended for investigation rather than for "fun". Life was already fascinating to me... Vibrations were increasing... I was still sat outside looking at everything as I normally do when I sit outside. My being was on this same frequency with everything else... I decided to scope my awareness. In the moment, my entire body was rumbling, but just as the breath can be separated into millions of parts that can then be divided even further, I decided to penetrate this vibration. Every pore on my skin breathing... I "zoomed" in and every cell in my body was in a state of pure ecstasy. I shifted my focus to the nada, and I could easily peel back every layer with medical precision all the way back to its empty echo (which of course is just more layers). I could do all this normally, so none of it was "enlightening" per se. But I couldn't juggle and meditate at the same time, I felt like now I could do such things. But that too wasn't amazing, I thought "yeah, I could just learn how to". Something truly amazing would be some kind of event that is unreplicable.
T 6:00 to 8:00
This is usually known as the "comedown" as the chemicals finally start to pass through the system the individual is usually hit with a depletion of serotonin. During this "comedown" phase, I felt a type of flow state. My thoughts and actions were so fluid. I could think of anything, I could do anything. I am still learning this community's terms but I think this was "stream entry" probably. I had reached this juncture plenty of times so it was nothing really incredible. 
T 12:00 
The "trip" should have ended hours ago but I still felt "normal". I still had access to my current state and that made me more confused. The "trip" never felt like it started and it I didn't feel as if it ended. And how could it end if it hadn't even started? I had a jerk like realization that everything we perceived was just a matter of where awareness is being directed. My "trip" was this life, and it started when I was born.
My physical vibrancy was matching the world around me. I shut off the awareness of the body and placed it on the frequencies happening around me. I become the frequencies... I magnified this awareness further and "became" a single particle on a belt of vibration. The body is just a center of gravity that our brains are obviously wired to continuously return to, for survival purposes of course. During psychedelics, areas of the brain can be turned on to talk to each other and it has also been observed that areas can outright be shut down. because of our sober process, we are always returning to our physicality. But awareness rather than being experienced, can become experience. That is when centerless lies. 

Another benefit was that my meditation was made stronger with these permanent insights. But mushrooms are external, the source of creation is inside us all. searching internally results in more powerful experiences than any drug can ever produce. And they are also unpredictable in nature, I had felt a sort of lack luster to the "trip" anyway. I probably wont be proof-reading this, so sorry for any sloppyness

Thanks for sharing! I do appreciate getting to know the details of others' experiences. I don't know if you wanted some kind of feedback on that, since it was a reply to me, and if so, what kind of feedback? Maybe that's something for another thread? Or am I missing something? I sure wouldn't mind some ideas of how to work with the nada sound, but maybe not in this thread, unless it can be related to the discussion question.

What I was trying to say in my comment, the one you quoted, was that I was interested in what Spatial had to say. Basically what Chris had already said. Because yeah, it is usually a great piece of investigation. 

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 12:20 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
This is a fascinating discussion.

Just to side-track slightly - Linda, if you start a thread on Nada sounds I'd be very interested to jump in on that.

I don't feel I have enough experience to comment on non-dual. Some intriguing inputs though. 

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 12:44 PM as a reply to Bardo.
There is at least one existing thread about the nada sound already. That's how I learned its name. Maybe I should just bump that thread, because I don't feel like I have the resources to phrase a proper framing for a new thread at the moment. 

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 1:15 PM as a reply to spatial.
Emmm, my guess is that fruition is non-dual (and fruition is definitely not the default).

I think that duality, like everything, arises and ends (and then arises again because of habit, karma). But each time it arises and ends it's not the same, so there is no such thing as "the duality".

My guess is that duality, the mind or the self can't be found.

But it's just a guess emoticon.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 2:29 PM as a reply to spatial.
spatial:
Here's my insight for today:

Stop looking for non-duality. Non-duality is the default mode of perception. It's what you're doing most of the day. What you want to be looking for is duality.

Please discuss.

aloha spatial,

   "Stop looking for non-duality." Not sure I agree, or disagree. Perhaps we should keep looking for non-duality; perhaps not.

   Pre-supposed is a looking subject, who provides framing for this unicorn, this chimera called "non-duality." Is there a "real" non-duality beyond the duality of duality and non-duality? If I think so, do I actually have a relation to the absolute non-duality? 

   If "non-duality is the default mode of perception," then we immediately have two things, the perceiver and the mode of perception, which is dualistic; thus the statement is absurd, internally flawed. As is the first statement: if non-duality is absolute, it is beyond discrimination. One looks for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

   "It's what you are doing most of the day." I don't want to dismiss this, I think you may be getting at something here. People like to think of consciousness as a continuous flow, a "strream." In truth, as a phenomenon, consciousness is punctuated by longer or shorter periods of unconsciousness, just as manifestation (existence) is mere punctuation of a vaster nondual text. The mind automatically fills in the blank spaces, the long stretches of sleep and spacing out, and makes conscious "reality" appear seamless, as we lurch from world to world seeking greater unconsciousness. Your insight could be that most of the time we are unconscious and thus not interfering with the perfect workings of the Great Pearl.

   One time a few years ago I had a veritable stroke. The effect was that I lost one quarter of my vision, the upper temporal quadrant of the left eye and the upper nasal quadrant of the right eye. The stroke was verified by mri and the reduced vision by a series of eye tests. What is interesting is that at no time was I able to actually perceive any blankness or blackness or void in my vision, just a diffused dimness in that quadrant. My mind, throughout the six weeks the condition took to resolve, always filled in the actual empty quarter with the illusion of "something there." I had a hell of a time making left turns, almost causing numerous accidents, but I never thought to stop driving.

   "What you want to be looking for is duality." Counter-intuitive but perhaps correct. If you can see duality for what it is, you might be able to abandon it. Removing obstacles to vision, "cleansing the doors of perception," is more effective than straining to see through smokescreens and blindfolds.

terry




I watch people in the world 
Throw away their lives lusting after things, 
Never able to satisfy their desires, 
Falling into deeper despair 
And torturing themselves. 
Even if they get what they want 
How long will they be able to enjoy it? 
For one heavenly pleasure 
They suffer ten torments of hell, 
Binding themselves more firmly to the grindstone. 
Such people are like monkeys 
Frantically grasping for the moon in the water 
And then falling into a whirlpool. 
How endlessly those caught up in the floating world suffer. 
Despite myself, I fret over them all night 
And cannot staunch my flow of tears.

*  *  *

The wind has settled, the blossoms have fallen; 
Birds sing, the mountains grow dark -- 
This is the wondrous power of Buddhism.

~ryokan

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 3:34 PM as a reply to spatial.
spatial:
Chris Marti:
Non-duality is the default mode of perception.

How so?


I had an experience this morning which prompted this post. I'm now questioning whether I'm talking about it in a coherent way, but I'm fairly certain that what I saw is real and significant. 

I'm not convinced there is such a thing as a "non-dual experience"...the fact that I know I'm aware implies that I have constructed an observer. But that observer is not a fixed entity...it seems to be constructed after the fact, and is based very much on the thing being observed. This is why I say it's all non-dual by default. The duality only seems to creep in when there is a need for a distinct observer.

OK, what I'm saying is confusing, and may be contradictory. That is why I want help sorting this out. 

When I turn my attention to the feeling of my hands on the keyboard, I can feel myself "coming out of non-duality". First, there is the feeling of the keyboard itself. It has a quality of "keyboard-ness". Nothing to do with hands (AND YET, this is still a dual experience: "keyboard-ness" has been selected out of the field for special treatment). Next, I am aware of hands on the keyboard. Next, I'm aware that they are my hands on the keyboard. Etc.

I think what I'm reacting to here is the tendency for people to refer to experiences near the beginning of that chain as "non-dual", because they only occur in glimpses, and they seem to precede the construction of the observer. The moment you realize you're experiencing something, you start constructing an experiencer, so it's hard to stay there for very long. But, it seems to me that it's only a matter of degree. 

Let me try to sum it up again: Instead of idealizing those brief experiences as being "non-dual", why not just accept that they are indeed somewhere on the spectrum of duality? The alternative seems to be a recipe for madness, as you chase this possibly nonsensical notion of "experiencing without an experiencer". 

aloha spatial,

   The confusion, in the taoist metaphor, settles like mud in a a vessel of dirty water when one stops the agitation. Confusion arises when one attempts to grasp the ungraspable. Simply abandon opinions and the truth emerges. Thus the practice of meditation, of no-thought.

   How does one "glimpse" non-duality? How is non-duality perceived and transmitted? Zen responds to this question over and over in perhaps the most voluminous commentary of any religion, ironic in that "no dependence on words and letters" is at its core.

   It wouod be easy to dismiss "experiences" (impossible!) of nonduality, except that we have them and so do many others. It's the experience to end experiences, the smile of all smiles, the pivot of temporality and mortality. To seek such experiences is to drive them away, as seeking happiness prevents it; and attempts to save one's life cause one to lose it, while giving up one's life saves it. 

   How can we approach non-duality? At an interface, perhaps. Every day I look at the ocean and see the interface between air and water, the infinite interplay at the water's surface (topos) of wave and wind. All the time I think, there is nonduality, there is god; there I Am.

   Lately a couple of mathematical concepts have interested me, in terms of revealing god in the fleeting moment, the interface between eternity and temporality. These are my two cents for the mornings insights.

   There is the law of identity, which states: A = A. As heidegger points out, that A equals A implies that there are actually two A's, each of which is the same in respect to itself.  Yet, if they were truly the same, they would be one entity. One identity. In this way, the ultimate unity which is A becomes a multiplicity of "identical" A's. Thus nonduality emerges into duality from nothing into something. Unnoticed and unremarked in the confusion of what is identity.

   Then there is the nature of infinitesimal calculus. The infinitesimal - little d itself - is infinitely small, nothing at all really, but has a direction and purpose, a potential which is already an emergence into existentiality, while at the same time infinitesimal. A truly mystical idea, as either leibniz or newton would tell you, if not whitehead and russel.

   Of course, mathematics is no more primordial (aka "a priori") than is karma or paticcasamuppada.

   Summing up, A + A + A... = A.That multiplicity = unity is actually at the core of identity.

terry



from the tao te ching, trans stephen mitchell


7.

The Tao is infinite, eternal. 
Why is it eternal? 
It was never born; 
thus it can never die. 
Why is it infinite? 
It has no desires for itself; 
thus it is present for all beings. The Master stays behind; 
that is why she is ahead. 
She is detached from all things; 
that is why she is one with them. 
Because she has let go of herself, 
she is perfectly fulfilled. 



12.

Colors blind the eye. 
Sounds deafen the ear. 
Flavors numb the taste. 
Thoughts weaken the mind. 
Desires wither the heart. The Master observes the world 
but trusts his inner vision. 
He allows things to come and go. 
His heart is open as the sky. 

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 4:02 PM as a reply to Jake Frankfurt Middenhall.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
David Kyle Spencer:
spatial:
Here's my insight for today:

Stop looking for non-duality. Non-duality is the default mode of perception. It's what you're doing most of the day. What you want to be looking for is duality.

Please discuss.

No Self is what you're doing most of the day. Non-duality can only be caught in glimpses.
This. Even if you are an Arhat, you are just realizing the emptiness of the person, saying that non duality is the default mode of perception (emptiness of phenomena) is saying that buddhahood is the default mode of perception, which is not true.
aloha jfm and dks,


   If "default mode of perception" means anything, then what does it mean? Is there more than one mode of perception? 

   Heidegger ("being and time") speaks of tool-being, contrasting the "ready to hand" with the "present to hand." We live in numerous worlds, each having its own rules of behavior and availability of tools. The world of work, of home, of the school, the library, the supermarket, the post office, and so on, each with its own standards which we so internalize, once we become familiar with the given world, that we respond with unconscious, effortless coping skills. We take for granted and are unconscious of the tools we use until they fail to work properly. A tool being used as a means to an end diappears in the light of the end, unless it breaks or goes missing, in which case "where is my hammer" leaps to the forefront of consciousness (existence). Damn thing, always missing or broken or what have you.

   The conscious world is a world of desire, and all its objects are "tools." We become conscious of our tools only when they become problems for us.

   The computer is a tool, the table, the chair, the house, the car, the road, the buildings: everywhere you look, everything you see, hear, feel, touch or taste is a tool  - in consciousness, that is, in existence - to mediate desire. The existential fact of dukkha arises from the nature of consciousness, in that all we are ever truly aware of is broken tools. Thus, the unsatisfactoriness of all experience is the default mode of perception.


terry



happiness is a warm gun
(the beatles)

She's not a girl who misses much
Do do do do do do, oh yeah
She's well-acquainted with the touch of the velvet hand
Like a lizard on a window pane
The man in the crowd with the multicolored mirrors
On his hobnail boots
Lying with his eyes while his hands are busy
Working overtime
A soap impression of his wife which he ate
And donated to the National Trust
I need a fix 'cause I'm going down
Down to the pits that I left uptown
I need a fix 'cause I'm going down
Mother Superior jumped the gun
Mother Superior jumped the gun
Mother Superior jumped the gun
Mother Superior jumped the gun
Mother Superior jumped the gun
Mother Superior jumped the gun
Happiness is a warm gun (bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
Happiness is a warm gun, momma (bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
When I hold you in my arms (ooh, oh, yeah)
And I feel my finger on your trigger (ooh, oh, yeah)
I know nobody can do me no harm (ooh, oh, yeah)
Because
Happiness is a warm gun, yes it is (bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
Happiness is a warm, yes it is, gun (happiness, bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
Well, don't you know that happiness is a warm gun momma?
(Happiness is a warm gun, yeah)

Songwriters: John Lennon / Paul McCartney

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 4:20 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Good stuff Spatial and Chris.

It can be useful to tease a distinction out between presence and so-called non-duality. Presence is extremely natural and common and could be said to be the default experience in a certain sense. But there is definitely something that happens with dedicated meditation practice: the ability to "see" how the sense of observer is created by a kind of centering around a sensation. 

Yes, the crazy thing is we think the self is one thing, but when we track "selfing" in experience, it jumps around all over the place. Gradually the self-as-sensation sense of identity is seen as not-self, but it doesn't end there. Then we identify with things like the experience of space or the experience of clarity. Those are odd ways of centering around a particular aspect of mind and calling it self, more advanced, but still based on a confusion.

Eventually the "centering" aspect falls away. This could be called fourth path. It's not a state. There can still be "self-sensations" but there is no confusion that it is really a self that needs to be identified with or protective. So it's a more free state of what is normally experience, but not a radically different state.

Still, it's is important to say that "presence" is not the end... unless you have gotten to the end and it's that kind of very rare presence.

good stuff, bra, worth several readings...

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 4:24 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:

This. Even if you are an Arhat, you are just realizing the emptiness of the person, saying that non duality is the default mode of perception (emptiness of phenomena) is saying that buddhahood is the default mode of perception, which is not true.

Could you break that down further? Are you sure about everything you are saying there? 

buddhahood is the default mode of modes...
the modeless mode...
a pearl without frames or brackets...

mild and pure


t

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 4:27 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Eventually the "centering" aspect falls away. This could be called fourth path. It's not a state. There can still be "self-sensations" but there is no confusion that it is really a self that needs to be identified with or protective. So it's a more free state of what is normally experience, but not a radically different state.

This is well-said. Centerlessness at first feels almost ridiculously expansive but eventually becomes the norm. (I often get confused about how others experience things and have to stop and remember that they don't have that perspective automatically.) And as you said, it's not that things look, feel or sound different but that they don't appear inside of an artificially constrained mental space. 


me too
(laughs)

a + a + a +
= a (plus)

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 4:49 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
There is at least one existing thread about the nada sound already. That's how I learned its name. Maybe I should just bump that thread, because I don't feel like I have the resources to phrase a proper framing for a new thread at the moment. 

Thanks for bumping that up. It's a great read as I have this going on all the time at moment.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 6:34 PM as a reply to Jake Frankfurt Middenhall.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
Indeed. From your own experience, do you realize that all phenomena is empty in a insight(experiental) way of understanding or do you only realize the self is empty? tell me about it please. I don´t really know because im not there.
In my experience, and fairly recently (I posted about it), I became keenly aware of my own lack of self, or at least my relationship to phenomena. So, currently, everything is still in relationship to my visual/sensory perspective of what occurs, but none of it really has anything to do with me and is just life going on (even when I'm involved). I don't have the insight/experiential view of everything else being empty as a default, it doesn't seem. Just an intellectual understanding of it regarding outward forms and don't "see" it in the same way. Again - the relationship of "me" to all that stuff is abundantly clear and makes life much, much simpler. I don't even know what this qualifies as in any way, I just know it's way lighter and more enjoyable than a few weeks ago. 

(huge shrug)

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 6:49 PM as a reply to Bardo.
Bardo Cruiser:
This is a fascinating discussion.

Just to side-track slightly - Linda, if you start a thread on Nada sounds I'd be very interested to jump in on that.

I don't feel I have enough experience to comment on non-dual. Some intriguing inputs though. 


Amen, Bardo Cruiser. Just reading some of this stuff gave me the feeling that it's juuuuust on my periphery and so close I could taste it... only to lose it when I look! haha. It's oddly great. 

This is an excellent thread. 

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/5/19 8:57 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Eventually the "centering" aspect falls away. This could be called fourth path. It's not a state. There can still be "self-sensations" but there is no confusion that it is really a self that needs to be identified with or protective. So it's a more free state of what is normally experience, but not a radically different state.

This is well-said. Centerlessness at first feels almost ridiculously expansive but eventually becomes the norm. (I often get confused about how others experience things and have to stop and remember that they don't have that perspective automatically.) And as you said, it's not that things look, feel or sound different but that they don't appear inside of an artificially constrained mental space. 

This is all very interesting. I want to be done with this.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/6/19 5:12 AM as a reply to spatial.
Be sure to look at _that_selfing sensation. How do you know you want to be done? What sensations/urges/thoughts give that impression? Are those "you" or are you aware of those experiences? What is the difference between those sensations and awareness of them?

(Not meant to be answered intellectually/verbally but to be investigated directly as experiences. "What is it?" is a classic koan.)

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/6/19 5:02 PM as a reply to spatial.
spatial:
Chris Marti:
Eventually the "centering" aspect falls away. This could be called fourth path. It's not a state. There can still be "self-sensations" but there is no confusion that it is really a self that needs to be identified with or protective. So it's a more free state of what is normally experience, but not a radically different state.

This is well-said. Centerlessness at first feels almost ridiculously expansive but eventually becomes the norm. (I often get confused about how others experience things and have to stop and remember that they don't have that perspective automatically.) And as you said, it's not that things look, feel or sound different but that they don't appear inside of an artificially constrained mental space. 

This is all very interesting. I want to be done with this.


   Aha, death instinct, very freudian...

t

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/6/19 5:21 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:

buddhahood is the default mode of modes...
the modeless mode...
a pearl without frames or brackets...

mild and pure


t

Right on.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/6/19 5:24 PM as a reply to spatial.
spatial:


This is all very interesting. I want to be done with this.

It's the idea that there is anything to be done with anything, or anyone to be done doing it that is in your way.

Shargrol is chock full of great advice!

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/6/19 5:26 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
As an aside, I just want to say how fantastically heartwarming it is to watch some of you old guard chaps holding a hand out, tirelessly, over and over. Thank you... you know who you are.

RE: Non-duality is the default
Answer
12/6/19 6:12 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
As an aside, I just want to say how fantastically heartwarming it is to watch some of you old guard chaps holding a hand out, tirelessly, over and over. Thank you... you know who you are.

   The compulsion to repeat, very freudiam...   (wink)

   Old boys just wanna have fun...

t




from "beyond the pleasure principle," sigmund freud...



...It is to be noted that only in rare instances can we observe the pure effects of the compulsion to repeat, unsupported by other motives. In the case of children's play we have already laid stress on the other ways in which the emergence of the compulsion may be interpreted; the compulsion to repeat and instinctual satisfaction which is immediately pleasurable seem to converge here into an intimate partnership. The phenomena of transference are obviously exploited by the resistance which the ego maintains in its pertinacious insistence upon repression; the compulsion to repeat, which the treatment tries to bring into its service is, as it were, drawn over by the ego to its side (clinging as the ego does to the pleasure principle). A great deal of what might be described as the compulsion of destiny seems intelligible on a rational basis; so that we are under no neces­sity to call in a new and mysterious motive force to explain it. The least dubious instance [of such a motive force] is perhaps that of traumatic dreams. But on maturer reflection we shall be forced to admit that even in the other instances the whole ground is not covered by the operation of the familiar motive forces. Enough is left unexplained to justify the hypothesis of a compulsion to repeat--something that seems more primitive, more elementary, more instinctual than the pleasure principle which it over-rides. But if a compulsion to repeat does operate in the mind, we should be glad to know something about it, to learn what function it corresponds to, under what conditions it can emerge and what its relation is to the pleasure principle - to which, after all, we have hitherto ascribed dominance over
the course of the processes of excitation in mental life.