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Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue

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Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Nad A. 5/2/11 8:46 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Bruno Loff 5/2/11 9:32 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Adam Bieber 5/2/11 11:45 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Bruno Loff 5/2/11 2:37 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 5/2/11 2:45 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Bart Castelijns 5/2/11 4:00 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Adam Bieber 5/2/11 6:57 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Nad A. 5/2/11 7:00 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Adam Bieber 5/3/11 1:36 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Matt L 5/3/11 9:54 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Adam Bieber 5/3/11 1:50 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Nad A. 5/6/11 4:34 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Adam Bieber 5/6/11 10:33 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Nad A. 5/9/11 7:32 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Adam Bieber 5/9/11 11:45 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Nad A. 5/10/11 6:12 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Adam Bieber 5/10/11 10:39 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Nad A. 5/2/11 6:59 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Bruno Loff 5/3/11 6:29 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 5/3/11 4:05 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Nad A. 5/6/11 4:34 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Bruno Loff 5/6/11 7:55 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Nad A. 5/6/11 8:38 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Bruno Loff 5/7/11 5:39 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Nikolai . 5/7/11 7:37 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue aaron . 5/7/11 8:28 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Nikolai . 5/7/11 8:46 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue aaron . 5/7/11 9:46 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue aaron . 5/7/11 10:52 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Daniel Johnson 5/13/11 5:57 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Yadid dee 5/14/11 2:08 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue . Jake . 5/14/11 2:06 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Adam Bieber 5/14/11 2:25 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue adam , 5/15/11 10:56 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue tarin greco 5/7/11 9:08 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Adam Bieber 5/7/11 11:45 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Bruno Loff 5/7/11 3:52 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue nic s 5/8/11 11:14 AM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Adam Bieber 5/8/11 9:55 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Daniel Johnson 5/9/11 6:00 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue aaron . 5/9/11 8:56 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 5/9/11 6:22 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Nad A. 5/9/11 7:28 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Bart Castelijns 5/2/11 12:57 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Adam Bieber 5/2/11 1:20 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Bart Castelijns 5/2/11 1:41 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 5/2/11 1:43 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Bart Castelijns 5/2/11 1:58 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Nad A. 5/2/11 7:01 PM
RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue Aaron J 5/2/11 5:45 PM
Does anyone have any experience eliminating resentment of pain or discomfort? This happens to me for many hours, daily.

Are there beliefs behind it or is it some kind of instinctual aversion?

Is there anything that can be investigated about it? I've never found any beliefs underlying this kind of resentment/grumpiness.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 9:32 AM as a reply to Nad A..
I think this is a very important topic... In my opinion, the actualism method falls a bit short when dealing with this kind of thing: you might consider taking up meditation to help with this issue. Maybe someone else has a different suggestion...

This means you sit for one hour straight and and just be with these unpleasant sensations until you can see them consistently clearly. Notice the compulsion to interfere, get distracted, or zone out, and patiently return to the unpleasant sensations in an attentive, non-reactive, non-distracted way whenever this happens (and you can expect it to happen a lot, the job to be done is always to return to the sensations). Use persistence, patience, and determination.

Doing this for a few days or weeks eventually leads to a stage called "equanimity" when the emotional reactivity to discomfort fades away, and it becomes easy to just be with the unpleasant sensations and see them clearly as they are. It turns out that it was the reactivity against these sensations that made them so uncomfortable in the first place. When one is no longer trying to fight these unpleasant sensations, they are no longer so difficult to bear, and are then allowed to fade away for themselves.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 11:45 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Actualism is great for decreasing resentment of all kinds, whether it be to one's current situation, or resentment of past issues. By continuously practicing to be harmless, the degree of "feeling" resentment decreases and keeps decreasing until it is a non-issue. At first, this is difficult but with attentiveness and going about being harmless (the website explains how to do this), it is possible and easy. With meditation, it seems Bruno is saying you will be able to "sit" with the unpleasant sensations but with harmlessness, resentment will EVENTUALLY decrease to near non-existence, where one can easily enjoy this moment of being alive through sensuousness, naivete, and felicitous feeling.

I had a problem where I always resented the current moment I was in but I vowed to be free of any and all kinds of resentment. Now any resentment is a million times lighter and rarely arises/is barely noticeable. Its not completely gone yet as it arises sometimes (daily) but It is easy to deal with and not irritating. Again, the great part is that in the absence of resentment is felicitous feeling and a delightful naivete that makes life fun and interesting.

I still do not understand why people are focusing on sensations, the three characteristics, and meditation when a PCE is obviously better than any of these experiences/understandings and through the PCE, one can learn to be naive and ALWAYS happy. Now, aggression, fear, desire, nurture, need to belong, still arise for me. They arise ALL the time but they are sooo much less in degree that it isn't even a big deal any more. I am currently becoming more naive and felicitous and life is getting grander and grander. Because life is good now, I have complete faith that actual freedom will be amazing.

It just takes time and time is a fucking bitch. Its drags on and on and one never thinks they are getting anywhere but a month ago I wasn't even close to how happy and harmless I am today. (by the way, with time, i mean the internal clock intuiting one to do and making people "feel" as though they are not doing something correctly or they want something done (AF) faster).

Anyone can argue with me on all the little points I make or don't make but thats fine because it doesn't change the way I perceive the world and how happy I am to be alive right now and to have the opportunity to one day become free and enjoy the senses fully.

Regards,

Adam

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 12:57 PM as a reply to Nad A..
Hi Nad,

Can't you stop the pain and discomfort by making lifestyle changes?

Bart

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 1:20 PM as a reply to Bart Castelijns.
That will only temporarily mask the root causes of the problem.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 1:41 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Making life style changes my involve facing up to believes/fears, thus addressing root causes.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 1:43 PM as a reply to Bart Castelijns.
Also it's easier to do this when feeling good, so if changing your lifestyle helps you to feel good it'll make applying the method easier.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 1:58 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Even when one has reached the level where one doesn't resent discomfort/pain and fatigue, why would one keep entertaining habits that cause these discomforts? Eventually these matters need to be addressed.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 2:37 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Adam Bieber:
Actualism is great for decreasing resentment of all kinds, whether it be to one's current situation, or resentment of past issues. By continuously practicing to be harmless, the degree of "feeling" resentment decreases and keeps decreasing until it is a non-issue. At first, this is difficult but with attentiveness and going about being harmless (the website explains how to do this), it is possible and easy. With meditation, it seems Bruno is saying you will be able to "sit" with the unpleasant sensations but with harmlessness, resentment will EVENTUALLY decrease to near non-existence, where one can easily enjoy this moment of being alive through sensuousness, naivete, and felicitous feeling.


I think Nad's post was specifically asking how to deal with unpleasant sensations which arise despite him being well-informed about actualism's method.

I usually fail to apply sensuousness when these sensations are abundant, in which case I "sit" with them, as described, until I can be equanimous towards them. Before I get back to feeling good, I almost always have to get back at being "OK." From that plateau, sensuousness once again becomes apparent.

Resentment or "feeling miserable" is not the only way that one can be making things harder for oneself. "Reactive" is a more encompassing term. When feeling-reactivity towards unpleasant sensations is diminished, then the unpleasant sensations themselves can be looked at without that extra layer getting in the way.

I must really accept the unpleasantness to the point that I "would be OK" if the unpleasant sensations were to continue (which feels very counter-intuitive until I've done it successfully). Then they usually go away! (in any case, without the extra layer of reactivity, the sensations are not as bad) It is just another example of how wanting something gets in the way of getting it.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 2:45 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
I must really accept the unpleasantness to the point that I "would be OK" if the unpleasant sensations were to continue (which feels very counter-intuitive until I've done it successfully).

ahh that is so creepy to do! try this phrase out (formulated after a brief reading of the "Emotional Freedom Technique" after reading this post; note i didn't read it fully but saw sentences of this type):

"Even if this <problem here> were to continue forever, I would be OK with it."

or

"Even though <this problem> is happening, I am OK with it."

Saying the 1st just causes a reaction like "NOO that would be terrible!" (not in so many words). something to look at for sure..

as for this:
Nad:
Are there beliefs behind it or is it some kind of instinctual aversion?

i think some beliefs might be: the belief that the problem will continue forever (at least in my case), that that would be bad, that i have to do something about it, and that failing to do so is my fault somehow/is equal to a lack of self-worth (tying up self-worth with ability to fix the problem)

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 4:00 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
I must really accept the unpleasantness to the point that I "would be OK" if the unpleasant sensations were to continue (which feels very counter-intuitive until I've done it successfully). Then they usually go away! (in any case, without the extra layer of reactivity, the sensations are not as bad) It is just another example of how wanting something gets in the way of getting it.


I was reading through notes I made last year. I then wrote that the bad sensations that I was feeling weren't actually that bad. I had actually forgotten about that, eventhough it was an important finding.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 5:45 PM as a reply to Nad A..
There are some helpful tips already posted here, based on my experience. It probably would help to have more background on your question, but I'll add or amplify on the above and maybe something else will click. Pain can be tricky, because it's such a general word. There's obviously some pain that you ought to get rid of by adjusting -- don't needlessly hold on to the burning rock type of pain. So, you want to take care of yourself. But there's other pain that's better to face, keeping five faculties/seven factors of awakening balanced while doing so. Pain can be a great teacher. I'm not suggesting that anyone should intentionally create pain to meditate on, but if that's what's there, then work with it skillfully.

You could study the pain from moment to moment, becoming curious about the pain and becoming an expert on pain. Is pain a bare sensation in itself or is it made up of bare sensations -- is it a compound made up of many things that are not pain? If it is a compound of 'things' that are not pain, then how do those things that are not pain assemble, transform or get translated into something known as pain? What are the links in the chain by which pain originates? Pain can be an object of meditation, and an incredibly compelling one, since the mind is drawn to it. So, a lot of concentration can be cultivated by focusing on it.

If there's resentment towards pain, then you could investigate the sense of I, me, mine in that relationship. Is it 'your' pain or is it a pain? Does it suggest something about sickness, old age or death or something along those lines that's troubling? That could be a little abstract depending on the mental state of the meditator. You could investigate the mind state of resentment. Is it always there? Does it come and go? What sensations make up the sense of resentment? Is it 'your' resentment or a resentment? Again, that could be overly abstract compared with paying close attention to what's happening 'in the body.'

Another option would be some brahma vihara practice, perhaps karuna or upekkha. If the mind tends to incline towards resentment, then incline the mind towards something more wholesome, cultivating new and different mental tendencies.

For me, directly witnessing the process by which pain is created, in the body, helped to ease resentment about it. This is often called 'sitting with the pain,' but just to be clear, don't sit mindlessly with the pain (or the resentment)... be present with it, be a scientist with it, be intimate with it, be friends with it, be 'seven factors of awakening' with it.

May you be at ease.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 6:57 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:


I usually fail to apply sensuousness when these sensations are abundant, in which case I "sit" with them, as described, until I can be equanimous towards them. Before I get back to feeling good, I almost always have to get back at being "OK." From that plateau, sensuousness once again becomes apparent.


YES, I found the same thing. It was difficult to be sensuous when not harmless. Being "OK" is good and now, that to me is harmlessness. Eventually, the degree of harm decreases but one is still always just "OK". It is the added felicity and sensuousness that turns one from harmless to happy and harmless, satisfied, enjoying life etc. as well as the naivete that allows one to see how generous the universe is with pleasure of the senses. Being equanimous with "unpleasant feelings" worked but I was attentive not specifically meditating. Therefore, you can be attentive anywhere and all the time. I actively tried to "neither express or repress the feeling." Each different part of virtual freedom is a skill to acquire. One has to learn how to constantly evoke felicitous feeling, as well as naivete, sensuousness and harmlessness but once you learn the skill and improve your ability, your pretty much set and momentum builds. "I" need to just keep fostering the different techniques.

Changing lifestyle must be equivalent to being sincere, where you do what you want to do and thus don't evoke negative feeling.

P.S. Naivete is great at fostering pure intent.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 6:59 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
I think this is a very important topic... In my opinion, the actualism method falls a bit short when dealing with this kind of thing: you might consider taking up meditation to help with this issue. Maybe someone else has a different suggestion...

This means you sit for one hour straight and and just be with these unpleasant sensations until you can see them consistently clearly. Notice the compulsion to interfere, get distracted, or zone out, and patiently return to the unpleasant sensations in an attentive, non-reactive, non-distracted way whenever this happens (and you can expect it to happen a lot, the job to be done is always to return to the sensations). Use persistence, patience, and determination.

Doing this for a few days or weeks eventually leads to a stage called "equanimity" when the emotional reactivity to discomfort fades away, and it becomes easy to just be with the unpleasant sensations and see them clearly as they are. It turns out that it was the reactivity against these sensations that made them so uncomfortable in the first place. When one is no longer trying to fight these unpleasant sensations, they are no longer so difficult to bear, and are then allowed to fade away for themselves.


Jeez. Is this a one-time thing? If I do this for a few weeks does this "equanimity" last months/years or does this have to be done again and again? Just thinking about having to do all that makes the pain sound rather tolerable in comparison. emoticon

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 7:00 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Adam Bieber:
Actualism is great for decreasing resentment of all kinds, whether it be to one's current situation, or resentment of past issues. By continuously practicing to be harmless, the degree of "feeling" resentment decreases and keeps decreasing until it is a non-issue. At first, this is difficult but with attentiveness and going about being harmless (the website explains how to do this), it is possible and easy. With meditation, it seems Bruno is saying you will be able to "sit" with the unpleasant sensations but with harmlessness, resentment will EVENTUALLY decrease to near non-existence, where one can easily enjoy this moment of being alive through sensuousness, naivete, and felicitous feeling.


Can you be a bit more specific? Practising happiness and harmlessness (actualism) is something I've tried for years. Perhaps if you explain what practising harmlessness means to you as regards resentment of pain/discomfort specifically?

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/2/11 7:01 PM as a reply to Bart Castelijns.
Bart Castelijns:
Hi Nad,

Can't you stop the pain and discomfort by making lifestyle changes?

Bart


Not really, no.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/3/11 1:36 PM as a reply to Nad A..
Yes, definitely.

I assume resentment of discomfort (or at least one way it arises) is where your doing something that you don't want to do so a nasty overwhelming feeling arises, where your entire body is like one giant filled bubble of resentment. What you do is be attentive to this giant painful thick bubble. What is it doing? Why is it happening? What is its mental reason for happening? Do you have some plan later that you don't want to do or does a past mistake make you feel shame/resentment. All you have to do my friend is watch it while neither repressing or expressing it. You don't have to be a perfect attentive guy. Your mind will tell you your making mistakes. Just "sit" with it. At first, you'll accidentally express it or repress it and it will become worse but then you learn to just leave it as it is and watch it.

After many many many times (all happening in the span of days), you'll be able to feel the resentment come at its onset and by not expressing it or repressing it, it will become a slightly lesser degree of resentment and therefore, lesser in suffering/pain. This will, at first, barely be noticeable but you'll have a hint of feeling better than a few days before. This process continues until the resentment becomes so light as to be a non-issue. You don't want to give any energy to any feeling whatsoever. Keep yourself a blank slate as best as possible to add felicity and sensuousness. Felicity is building a slight tinge of happiness that arises into a constant phenomenon.

Also, their may be many qualities to your resentment such as a fear involved, a desire to escape/do something else, an aggression toward the situation. Your mind might trick you to do something else because it doesn't want to feel the resentment. All these compound the resentment to be stronger. The resentment might suddenly turn into a fear, which will be a painful feeling in itself that you must again be painstakingly attentive, neither express or repress the fear, but it will gradually lesser in degree.

You will have to go through many seemingly painful resentments, fears, aggressions, desires, nurture's before you can lessen the degree of each but then they will be less and not as painful. You will be able to better build felicity, which you will have to learn how to do, from a more harmless standpoint. You will become increasingly sensuous. Life will become better. Your eyes will see things differently. But you must meet these horrible feelings with an unbudging attentiveness. It is sometimes "tough" and sometimes seems impossible but then you get increasing glimpses of the PCE and your like damn, this is incredible, I need this. Life slowly gets better, momentum pulls you toward actuality, and you it to stay better so you continuously check on how your experiencing this moment of being alive trying to foster felicity (pure intent).

The cunning self will do everything in its power to sidetrack your intelligence but you know that if you are attentive, felicitous, and sensuousness, your life will eventually be delicious and delightful and you will say over and over again, "it is great to be alive." This has been my experience with the actualism method and its working great. This process isn't overwhelmingly tough but it is work. The rewards are remarkable though.

Everything must be experienced by you and through you. I can't be your eyes, you can't be mine. It is up to you to figure out everything on the Actualism Trust site and apply it to your life.

In short, Harmlessness is neither expressing nor repressing a feeling. Giving it no energy. There will be so many negative feelings as half the instinctual passions cause an emotional pain that you will be at first overwhelmed but with patience and although the negative feelings will still be present, they will be much much less in degree and you can add felicity and be happy. Then after a few weeks/months of fairly constant attentiveness and struggle. You understand everything you need to do to harness a pce, happiness, and harmlessness and life is bright, happy, and peaceful. That is virtual freedom.

edit: this is my experience and dialogues and correspondences at the actualism website can really explain it sooooooooo much better than I am currently capable of.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/3/11 6:29 AM as a reply to Nad A..
Nad A.:
Bruno Loff:
I think this is a very important topic... In my opinion, the actualism method falls a bit short when dealing with this kind of thing: you might consider taking up meditation to help with this issue. Maybe someone else has a different suggestion...

This means you sit for one hour straight and and just be with these unpleasant sensations until you can see them consistently clearly. Notice the compulsion to interfere, get distracted, or zone out, and patiently return to the unpleasant sensations in an attentive, non-reactive, non-distracted way whenever this happens (and you can expect it to happen a lot, the job to be done is always to return to the sensations). Use persistence, patience, and determination.

Doing this for a few days or weeks eventually leads to a stage called "equanimity" when the emotional reactivity to discomfort fades away, and it becomes easy to just be with the unpleasant sensations and see them clearly as they are. It turns out that it was the reactivity against these sensations that made them so uncomfortable in the first place. When one is no longer trying to fight these unpleasant sensations, they are no longer so difficult to bear, and are then allowed to fade away for themselves.


Jeez. Is this a one-time thing? If I do this for a few weeks does this "equanimity" last months/years or does this have to be done again and again? Just thinking about having to do all that makes the pain sound rather tolerable in comparison. emoticon


I guess you'll have to do it to find out.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/3/11 9:54 AM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
That was a really well written, helpful example of the process Adam. Maybe split up the wall of text a bit more though ;)

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/3/11 1:50 PM as a reply to Matt L.
Thanks

Instead of trying to disable all the socio-instinctual identity at once, I picked one, two, or three things that were most bothering me and decided to free myself of it. First, it was desire for a certain woman. Then it was resentment of the current situation. Then it was becoming felicitous. Then becoming naive. Each one these doings seemed pivotal to my advancement. This allowed me to focus and make improvement fast. Again, it is the stuff that bothers you that you must sort through, which is different than the things that bother me.

Now, I am trying harness a naivete as much as possible and free myself of nurture. Its funny cause as soon as I decide what to free myself of, the chosen passion starts occurring more frequently giving me ample chance to lessen its degree. so yea, now its naivete, which is soooo much fun, nurture, which propels me to help others (why am I so selfish that it must be my job to offer my help everyone and change THEIR lives), and disabling little desires that flash time to time.

Also, it wasn't really difficult to write that last account. I mean it took a little time but one cool thing about AF is that after you go through some of your own issues, you get a great objective view of whats happening within you and within the human condition. Definitely reading the AF material greatly helps to understand the lingo, processes, and what to look for/do as well. its probably the best learning experience i've ever had.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/3/11 4:05 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
I guess you'll have to do it to find out.

i'm reminded of this section in MCTB
MCTB:
Imagine that there is a meditation medication called Damnitall that is used to treat some form of suffering (perhaps it’s a pain medicine or an anti-depressant). However, in a subset of patients its long-term use is known to cause pronounced anxiety, paranoia, depression, apathy, micro-psychotic episodes, a pervasive sense of primal frustration, pronounced lack of perspective on relationships, reduced libido, feelings of dissatisfaction with worldly affairs, and exacerbation of personality disorders, all of which can lead to markedly reduced social and occupational function. Imagine that these side effects are known to persist sometimes months and even years after someone stops taking the medication, with occasional flare-ups and relapses, with the only permanently effective treatment being to increase the dose, along with supportive care and counseling, and hope that these side effects pass quickly with little damage.

Now, imagine that you are living in the dark days of paternalistic medicine during which doctors are prescribing this stuff without fully disclosing the potential side effects despite the fact that they are fully aware of them. Imagine that drug companies are not forced to disclose known side effects. Does anything in this scenario make you a bit uncomfortable? I should hope so!

full disclosure man! can't just tell someone to meditate like that =P

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/6/11 4:34 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Adam Bieber:
Yes, definitely.

I assume resentment of discomfort (or at least one way it arises) is where your doing something that you don't want to do so a nasty overwhelming feeling arises, where your entire body is like one giant filled bubble of resentment. What you do is be attentive to this giant painful thick bubble. What is it doing? Why is it happening? What is its mental reason for happening? Do you have some plan later that you don't want to do or does a past mistake make you feel shame/resentment. All you have to do my friend is watch it while neither repressing or expressing it. You don't have to be a perfect attentive guy. Your mind will tell you your making mistakes. Just "sit" with it. At first, you'll accidentally express it or repress it and it will become worse but then you learn to just leave it as it is and watch it.

After many many many times (all happening in the span of days), you'll be able to feel the resentment come at its onset and by not expressing it or repressing it, it will become a slightly lesser degree of resentment and therefore, lesser in suffering/pain. This will, at first, barely be noticeable but you'll have a hint of feeling better than a few days before. This process continues until the resentment becomes so light as to be a non-issue. You don't want to give any energy to any feeling whatsoever. Keep yourself a blank slate as best as possible to add felicity and sensuousness. Felicity is building a slight tinge of happiness that arises into a constant phenomenon.



Well, as I said, I've practiced all that you describe for years and there has been no reduction in its frequency. Attentiveness works in shifting the resentment a portion of the time but nothing has worked in stopping it reappearing 5mins, 1 hour or a couple of hours later. I've never found any beliefs behind it. The resentment is not about doing something that I don't want to do. As I said in the original post and the title, it's about pain/discomfort and sometimes fatigue.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/6/11 4:34 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
Nad A.:
Bruno Loff:
I think this is a very important topic... In my opinion, the actualism method falls a bit short when dealing with this kind of thing: you might consider taking up meditation to help with this issue. Maybe someone else has a different suggestion...

This means you sit for one hour straight and and just be with these unpleasant sensations until you can see them consistently clearly. Notice the compulsion to interfere, get distracted, or zone out, and patiently return to the unpleasant sensations in an attentive, non-reactive, non-distracted way whenever this happens (and you can expect it to happen a lot, the job to be done is always to return to the sensations). Use persistence, patience, and determination.

Doing this for a few days or weeks eventually leads to a stage called "equanimity" when the emotional reactivity to discomfort fades away, and it becomes easy to just be with the unpleasant sensations and see them clearly as they are. It turns out that it was the reactivity against these sensations that made them so uncomfortable in the first place. When one is no longer trying to fight these unpleasant sensations, they are no longer so difficult to bear, and are then allowed to fade away for themselves.


Jeez. Is this a one-time thing? If I do this for a few weeks does this "equanimity" last months/years or does this have to be done again and again? Just thinking about having to do all that makes the pain sound rather tolerable in comparison. emoticon


I guess you'll have to do it to find out.


I think I'll pass on that then.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/6/11 7:55 PM as a reply to Nad A..
Nad A.:

Well, as I said, I've practiced all that you describe for years and there has been no reduction in its frequency. Attentiveness works in shifting the resentment a portion of the time but nothing has worked in stopping it reappearing 5mins, 1 hour or a couple of hours later.

Bruno Loff:
[Here's something new you could try]


Jeez. Is this a one-time thing? If I do this for a few weeks does this "equanimity" last months/years or does this have to be done again and again? Just thinking about having to do all that makes the pain sound rather tolerable in comparison. emoticon

Bruno:
I guess you'll have to do it to find out.


I think I'll pass on that then.


In a previous thread you asked the following:

Nad A.:

What is meant by sincerity as it pertains to the routine practice of haietmoba?

In the years of on and off practice and reading and re-reading of the AF site, still all I understand about 'sincerity' in actualism is that it is important to be honest with myself about how I'm feeling. Still doesn't seem like a big deal. Yet somehow this is the key to approaching the door of the actual world? I don't understand how sincerity is something that can be 'activated' or how it then leads to some other state.

What else is meant by sincerity that I may be missing? Can someone give an example of how practice would go without sincerity, or with the opposite of sincerity, to provide contrast?


In the same thread:
Dan:

Sincerity is what drives anyone towards freedom, whether that freedom is spiritual or actual. It is a sincere choice to disrupt the habitual in favour of the true / the actual.

If I feel lacking in motivation, I will ask myself: do I truly want to be free? Really? What's getting in the way? What urges/emotions/patterns are keeping me from sincerely practising?


In the same thread:

Nad A.:

My actualism practice is lacking in confidence, half-hearted, tepid, with a low success rate in getting back to feeling good and a zero percent success rate in producing PCEs. But I don't think it's a lack of sincerity. Perhaps it's the fact that I've only had 2 seconds worth of PCE-time.



I propose that if you try something for a couple of months and it isn't working, try something else. Not necessarily what I suggested, just something else. There is plenty to choose from among the various mental exercises you could do. Another possibility would be concentration meditation (samatha), in which you cultivate tranquility, absorption and bliss. Or you could try yoga, or tantric sex techniques, or chi kung, or psychedelics, or the focusing technique... Yet another possibility is to take what you are currently doing to the next level of commitment and dedication, you could take a 10 day vacation for instance, in which you determinedly decide to do HAIETMOBA every single waking moment for 16 hours a day until it becomes automatic (usually by the seventh day or so).

Doing a technique half-heartedly, or in general anything other than being actively engaged in bringing about the intended outcome in the most invested and appropriate manner possible (which implies being open to trying whatever might be required), makes it no surprise that said outcome isn't happening, for it denotes a lack of sincerity/investment/interest.

You can ask yourself: Have I really decided to do this? Have I made this decision firmly and unwaveringly? Am I completely sincere, invested and interested in ending my suffering? Do I truly want to be free? Am I holding back in any way? For any reason? If so, why? What are the reasons why I thought of doing this in the first place? Are they valid reasons? Why? etc

If it turns out that you are holding back somehow, for instance maybe you haven't given yourself permission to do this for some reason... then realize that this particular endeavor can only be successful if you actually intend it to be.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/6/11 8:38 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:

Nad A.:

My actualism practice is lacking in confidence, half-hearted, tepid, with a low success rate in getting back to feeling good and a zero percent success rate in producing PCEs. But I don't think it's a lack of sincerity. Perhaps it's the fact that I've only had 2 seconds worth of PCE-time.

I propose that if you try something for a couple of months and it isn't working, try something else. Not necessarily what I suggested, just something else. There is plenty to choose from among the various mental exercises you could do. Another possibility would be concentration meditation (samatha), in which you cultivate tranquility, absorption and bliss. Or you could try yoga, or tantric sex techniques, or chi kung, or psychedelics, or the focusing technique... Yet another possibility is to take what you are currently doing to the next level of commitment and dedication, you could take a 10 day vacation for instance, in which you determinedly decide to do HAIETMOBA every single waking moment for 16 hours a day until it becomes automatic (usually by the seventh day or so).

Doing a technique half-heartedly, or in general anything other than being actively engaged in bringing about the intended outcome in the most invested and appropriate manner possible (which implies being open to trying whatever might be required), makes it no surprise that said outcome isn't happening, for it denotes a lack of sincerity/investment/interest.

You can ask yourself: Have I really decided to do this? Have I made this decision firmly and unwaveringly? Am I completely sincere, invested and interested in ending my suffering? Do I truly want to be free? Am I holding back in any way? For any reason? If so, why? What are the reasons why I thought of doing this in the first place? Are they valid reasons? Why? etc

If it turns out that you are holding back somehow, for instance maybe you haven't given yourself permission to do this for some reason... then realize that this particular endeavor can only be successful if you actually intend it to be.


The reason why my actualism practice often lapses into being half-hearted is because of consistent failure. The years of my practice have been littered with weeks of intense attempts and optimism about the method. I've probably had a few special vacation-type weeks like you mention. What happens though is that the hours of going around in circles being attentive to some bad feeling and looking for beliefs with no success just spirals frustration and ends up causing far more misery than if I hadn't been practicing actualism in the first place. So, weeks later the practice naturally becomes less intense and stays that way until the next random 'peak' week... which is normally after some fleeting 'realisation' about what 'it's all about'.

I'm not interested in just any cure for pain-resentment, my primary aim is to head in the direction of another PCE. I don't see where I could find the motivation to spend hours/weeks/months learning meditation and heading in the opposite direction just to temporarily alleviate the pain-resentment.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/6/11 10:33 PM as a reply to Nad A..
Nad A:
Nad A:
it's about pain/discomfort and sometimes fatigue.


Well if its pain specifically, then that is not a psycho-social "feeling" to decrease. If its resentment toward a pain you have then that can decrease. Yes, resentment will come back again and again. Eventually, while being attentive many times and neither expressing or repressing the resentment, it will decrease in intensity but first you gotta do the work. It will not evaporate until one reaches AF. You may not notice the decrease in intensity as any resentment is and feels like suffering but it will arise less and less and less powerful. When you are not attentive and the resentment arises, you are most likely repressing or expressing the resentment in some way causing it to be increasingly painful.

This is harmlessness but if you don't add happiness/felicity then the resentment will continue to be an emotive underlying tone. The emotive tone is why it does not seem to disappear. One has to add felicity to completely take away the suffering and enjoy life. Also, as the suffering arises again and again, one finds a way back to felicity, resentment disappears, and life becomes semi-enjoyable (until really enjoyable). One has to truly renounce resentment and swear to relieve it at all times, which one does by being attentive, harmless, and then adding felicity. The emotive tone is constantly there until one becomes more and more harmless and layers are peeled off the emotive tone. Without felicity, harmlessness, although essential, is a bore and tough but felicity makes the process fun, one feel good, and life enjoyable.

Meditations is the wrong direction. Learn to be harmless, then learn to add felicity, then become naive and bam, your in PCE.
my practice is currently. first, feel good. second, be naive. third, find the stillness in the senses and I find myself in a PCE.
for you, my advice would be. first, learn how to become harmless. second, learn to add felicty. third, become sensuous, fourth be naive. You gotta learn these skills though and i think they are skills that one needs to learn how to apply. Also, don't try to do this all day. Take a walk for like 1-2 hours a day and do it there. all your doing is just learning how to be happy and harmless. apply to your life when you remember. At first for me, it was too much work to do it all the time so i just focused on getting better at convenient times during the day (but everyday). This is my advice take as you wish as its worked for me. life is better than ever.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/7/11 5:39 AM as a reply to Nad A..
Nad A.:

I'm not interested in just any cure for pain-resentment, my primary aim is to head in the direction of another PCE. I don't see where I could find the motivation to spend hours/weeks/months learning meditation and heading in the opposite direction just to temporarily alleviate the pain-resentment.


Your belief that meditation goes in the opposite direction is just precisely that. Maybe Tarin has something to say here. If I recall correctly, he was also trying to go through the wide and wondrous path, but after failing to set a foothold in it, took a detour through hardcore meditation practice until he got enlightenment. Only then was he able to successfully apply actualism.

Even Adam, who proposes that meditation is the wrong direction, does so after he has attained stream-entry. In fact everyone in this forum who is either actually or virtually free has some form of meditative attainment.

Isn't the evidence massive? You seem to prefer going around in circles rather than trying something new. And this apparently out of a belief that meditation (as we practice it here) is going in the wrong direction. You probably got this notion from Richard, who has an incomplete view of all the forms of meditation available anyway, and who himself got enlightened and did meditative-like activities for many thousands of hours before becoming actually free.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/7/11 7:37 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Yeh, I wodner why people don't see that. Of course there is certainly not enough data yet, but all the little data out there seems to point to getting stream entry at least before going for AF. Are there others who got AF without having practiced the AF techniques for over a decade before getting AF? I think Peter and Vineeto took forever to get AF without a path under their belts.

Seems like the quickest route there is to get your brain malleable, pliant and slightly luminous before AF. Am I wrong?

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/7/11 8:28 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Yes, the limited data points we have suggest the quickest path to AF is probably through some level of enlightenment(Trent, Tarin, Christian, Jeff, Stefanie). Though it's worth mentioning that Peter and Vineeto got virtual freedom in about 18 months, and that itself is probably beyond what goes by "4th path" here(as far as being happy and harmless that is. 4th pathers seem to clearly have developed some cognitive skills/tuning ability of the mind that do not get so developed going the actualism only route). Pamela and Tom got AF pretty quickly I think going the actualism only route, in comparison to Peter and Vineeto. I've not found the exact amount of time for Pamela and Tom but I think it was more like 3-5 years than the over 10 for Peter and Vineeto. In a case like Nad's, where the person is failing miserably to get the actualism method to work, I think it's really a no-brainer than some kind of meditation practice would be the best course of action. To continue to do something that is not working even moderately year after year could be called many things.......sensible would not be one of them. Also, I think Richard is the only person to have gotten AF without any meditative practice at all(Peter, Vineeto, and Pamela all practiced meditation earlier in life. None of them got a path though to my knowledged). Incidentally, Richard got enlightened quickly by the actualism method itself and not by a meditative path. So, I can see why he is of the opinion that he is. However, as of right now, the experience of the majority of actually free people is very suggestive that getting a path is the quickest way to go(I'm not necessarily convinced it's the "easiest" though. The actualism path is a enjoyable path[if working]without the dark nights and phase problems of noting style vipassana).

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/7/11 8:46 AM as a reply to aaron ..
Richard got enlightened via the HAIETMOBA and PCEs? Are you sure about that? Having read a little of his journal I think he only started on the AF techniques after claiming enlightenment. Is this wrong? Links?

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/7/11 9:08 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:

Your belief that meditation goes in the opposite direction is just precisely that. Maybe Tarin has something to say here. If I recall correctly, he was also trying to go through the wide and wondrous path, but after failing to set a foothold in it, took a detour through hardcore meditation practice until he got enlightenment. Only then was he able to successfully apply actualism.

i am all for people approaching the practice of actualism however they see most fit for themselves, and neither categorically encourage nor discourage any other method(s) as preliminary practices for HAIETMOBA. what i do categorically encourage for all those intent on becoming actually free is the following: 1- that their intent is to be happy and harmless (in the way that is free of malice and sorrow)[1]; and 2- that they have a clear comprehension (even if mostly intellectual, initially) of what such freedom is[2]. the effective path isn't merely carried by this intent and doesn't merely end in this view, but begins with both[3].

tarin

[1] (source)
richard:

‘The intent is you will become happy and harmless. The intent is you will be free of sorrow and malice. The intent is you will become blithesome and benign. The intent is you will be free of fear and aggression. The intent is you will become carefree and considerate. The intent is you will be free from nurture and desire. The intent is you will become gay and benevolent. The intent is you will be free of anguish and animosity. The intent is that, by being free of the Human Condition you will experience peace-on-earth, in this life-time, as this body ... as is evidenced in the PCE. (...)’.


Spelled-out sequentially that first part of the paragraph, immediately prior to the part-sentence you extracted, can look something like this:

1. The initial intent comes from a vital interest in becoming happy and harmless.

That intent thus creates a vested interest in being free of sorrow and malice.

2. The initial intent comes from a vital interest in becoming blithesome and benign.

That intent thus creates a vested interest in being free of fear and aggression.

3. The initial intent comes from a vital interest in becoming carefree and considerate.

That intent thus creates a vested interest in being free from nurture and desire.

4. The initial intent comes from a vital interest in becoming gay and benevolent.

That intent thus creates a vested interest in being free of anguish and animosity.


[2] which clear comprehension is most readily evinced by the memory of a pce.

[3] insight practitioners: cf. 'right intent' (sammā sankappa) and 'right view' (sammā-diṭṭhi)

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/7/11 9:46 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Yes, Richard wrote about this in some of his correspondence.

"The actualism method, first put into practice in 1981 by a normal person with a normal wife and a normal family and a normal mortgage and so on, is not designed for the ‘One in 10,000,000’ person (not even unintentionally) as it was born out of the initial four-hour PCE in June 1980, which set the whole process in motion in January 1981, and not out of the enlightened state which came about in September 1981 as a result of the vitally important proviso not yet being known (someone has to be the first to discover something new in any field of human endeavour) let alone being remembered/applied under all circumstances ... circumstances such as falling in love, for example, and being bitten badly by the enlightenment bug as a direct result of the love being unrequited.

I kid you not ... the only danger on the wide and wondrous path to an actual freedom is that *one may become enlightened instead*."

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcorrespondence/sc-actualism2.htm



"RESPONDENT: 2. Is ego dissolution a necessary precursor to ‘soul death’ ...

RICHARD: No ... if I had known, back in 1981 at the moment of ego-dissolution, what I now know I would not have let the process stop halfway through its happening.

RESPONDENT: ... or would ego dissolution be an automatic consequence of dissolving the affective self first?

RICHARD: Yes ... by my reckoning it would have all been over in a matter of maybe 6-10 seconds (rather than 6 seconds plus eleven years).

RESPONDENT: 3. Do you think it is possible to experience the complete dissolution of ego (leaving affective self intact) without lapsing into a delusory ASC?

RICHARD: No ... the soul-self is extremely powerful (affectively powerful that is).

RESPONDENT: In other words, is ‘spiritual enlightenment’ a necessary consequence of ego death (sans soul death) ...

RICHARD: Yes ... without the ego-self to keep the soul-self under some semblance of control it runs rampant and totally rules the roost."

"RESPONDENT: ... or did you develop the HAIETMOBA method as a result of a spontaneous PCE?

RICHARD: RICHARD: Yes ... essentially ‘how am I experiencing this moment of being alive’ meant ‘what is preventing the PCE from happening at this very moment’ to me back in 1981 (six months after the initial PCE when I had thoroughly satisfied myself that the childhood PCE’s had, of course, nothing to do with any substance whatsoever).

Or, to put that another way, it meant ‘what is preventing the already always existing peace-on-earth (as evidenced in the PCE) from being apparent’ ... and it usually was either a feeling or a feeling-fed thought (as in a belief ... oft-times cunningly disguised as a truth"

"RESPONDENT: You were really that close?

RICHARD: Yes ... I have written before about how I unwittingly discovered yet another way to become enlightened:

• [Co-Respondent]: ‘Richard, I’ve been following this discussion with interest and have a couple of questions for you: Which of the 3 ways [Jnani, Bhakti, Yoga] did you use to achieve spiritual enlightenment in 1981?
• : ‘Well, none of those 3 ways, actually ... I inadvertently ‘discovered’ another way: ignorance.*I was aiming for the pure consciousness experience (PCE) and landed short of my goal* ... and it took another 11 years to get here"

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listafcorrespondence/listaf60.htm




"To say that I was amazed rather fails to adequately describe the feeling of relief that after all there was a solution to the human situation here on earth. I was ecstatic.

That proved to be my undoing – as far as actual freedom is concerned. Ecstasy led to euphoria and euphoria led to bliss........"


So, Richard used the actualism method after a 4 hour PCE and *inadvertently* got enlightened from it. He became virtually free very quickly and got in a ecstasy which led to enlightenment(ie ego death) instead of ego/soul death(AF):

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/7/11 10:52 AM as a reply to aaron ..
Here is one more relevant quote in regards to how Richard approached things(or didn't approach things) on his way to AF.

"RESPONDENT: Richard, I’ve been following this discussion with interest and have a couple of questions for you: Which of the 3 ways did you use to achieve spiritual enlightenment in 1981?

RICHARD: Well, none of those 3 ways, actually ... I inadvertently ‘discovered’ another way: ignorance. I was aiming for the pure consciousness experience (PCE) and landed short of my goal ... and it took another 11 years to get here.

To explain: I have never followed anyone; I have never been part of any religious, spiritual, mystical or metaphysical group; I have never done any disciplines, practices or exercises at all; I have never done any meditation, any yoga, any chanting of mantras, any tai chi, any breathing exercises, any praying, any fasting, any flagellations, any ... any of those ‘Tried and True’ inanities; nor did I endlessly analyse my childhood for ever and a day; nor did I do never-ending therapies wherein one expresses oneself again and again ... and again and again"





http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listafcorrespondence/listaf16.htm#08Jan01

To be clear, I'm not in any way denigrating the possible benefits of certain meditative practices(the results of the former path attainers and now AF people speak for themselves). Just clarifying Richard's journey some.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/7/11 11:45 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Hey Bruno,

I think attaining stream entry and very possibly second path (as i went again through new cycles and had a perceptual change) helped me a great deal with the actualism method but am definitely not convinced it is necessary. Some level of attainment gave me a great confidence and helped me better understand my thought processes and emotions. I am pretty sure I became happier but not much more harmless.

I just don't know if there is a point to spending several months attaining stream entry when those several months could be used to learn how to harness constant PCEs. Through the actualism process, one is said to eventually become enlightened so sticking with the af method and learning its ins and outs may be better than other forms of meditation. I'm just wondering if the sitting and meditating for several hours a day is still necessary.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/7/11 3:52 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Adam Bieber:

I just don't know if there is a point to spending several months attaining stream entry when those several months could be used to learn how to harness constant PCEs.


I don't know either, but looking at the little data we have can help making a decision. That being: as of today, the only person I ever heard of geting AF without any known meditative practice was Tom.

I am not sure but I think Richard doesn't fall into this category. I have recently read Richard's descriptions of his sexual practices with his first wife, only to conclude, in the end, that he was practicing tantric sex (and had done so in its masturbatory form back in his adolescence). This counts as a mental practice in my book (link).

So everyone except for Tom has done a practice of some kind...

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/8/11 11:14 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
So everyone except for Tom has done a practice of some kind...


Instead of speculating whether meditative methods or attainments are prerequisite, let's look at what is essentially the only deciding factor for bringing about an actual freedom. As Tarin pointed out pure intent is the starting point that will inevitably lead to the conditions that result in realising an actual freedom. It is the driving force, and when correctly harnessed and understood leads to the thing doing itself. A bit like the seven factors of enlightenment. When they are cultivated to a certain degree, balanced and aligned correctly they result directly in enlightenment.

So what exactly is this 'pure intent'. Richard uses a cascade of adjectives to approximate it to a
certain degree. The closest 'I' can get is via naiveté or the memory of a PCE. I think it would be valuable to illustrate more what this looks like in practise and personal reports/ examples of it in action.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/8/11 9:55 PM as a reply to nic s.
Richard:

The intent is you will become happy and harmless. The intent is you will be free of sorrow and malice. The intent is you will become blithesome and benign. The intent is you will be free of fear and aggression. The intent is you will become carefree and considerate. The intent is you will be free from nurture and desire. The intent is you will become gay and benevolent. The intent is you will be free of anguish and animosity. The intent is that, by being free of the Human Condition you will experience peace-on-earth, in this life-time, as this body ... as is evidenced in the PCE. An actualist’s intent is a pure intent and discovering how to blend this pure intent – via attentiveness – into one’s conscious life is the process that places one on the wide and wondrous path to actual freedom ... this path is a virtual freedom. Uncovering how to prolong the condition of virtual freedom – via attentiveness and sensuousness – is still another process. These are felicitous processes, however, and they are well worth the effort for attentiveness and sensuousness are central to virtual freedom and the key to the whole condition. Attentiveness and sensuousness are both the goal of actualism and the means to that end: one reaches apperceptiveness by being ever more sensuous and one activates sensuousness by being ever more attentive ... and one activates attentiveness by no longer ‘feeling good’.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/9/11 6:00 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
the only person I ever heard of geting AF without any known meditative practice was Tom.


Who is Tom?

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/9/11 6:22 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
So everyone except for Tom has done a practice of some kind...

also trent's friend.

but the actualist method is itself a meditative practice... so really anyone who attains AF will do it after doing some meditative practice. i guess the question is whether other practices, done before, might better prepare one for the actualist method than doing it from the start. the answer is: i dunno!

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/9/11 7:28 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
Nad A.:

I'm not interested in just any cure for pain-resentment, my primary aim is to head in the direction of another PCE. I don't see where I could find the motivation to spend hours/weeks/months learning meditation and heading in the opposite direction just to temporarily alleviate the pain-resentment.


Your belief that meditation goes in the opposite direction is just precisely that. Maybe Tarin has something to say here. If I recall correctly, he was also trying to go through the wide and wondrous path, but after failing to set a foothold in it, took a detour through hardcore meditation practice until he got enlightenment. Only then was he able to successfully apply actualism.

Even Adam, who proposes that meditation is the wrong direction, does so after he has attained stream-entry. In fact everyone in this forum who is either actually or virtually free has some form of meditative attainment.

Isn't the evidence massive? You seem to prefer going around in circles rather than trying something new. And this apparently out of a belief that meditation (as we practice it here) is going in the wrong direction. You probably got this notion from Richard, who has an incomplete view of all the forms of meditation available anyway, and who himself got enlightened and did meditative-like activities for many thousands of hours before becoming actually free.


My belief that meditation goes in the opposite direction comes from noticing that meditation involves closing one's eyes and focusing inwards, rather than enjoying a plethora of sensations in the actual world and sensuousness. That said, I can see how making the brain more malleable (stretching it to extremes, even if in a wrong direction) may make actualism easier. I'm also not surprised that people who have been successful or lucky enough to have had many different altered-states throughout their lives find the whole process easy.

Now I'm wondering as an aside, is there no delusion(or illusion) involved at all in stream-entry? I don't know all the different types of 'enlightenment' but I had assumed there would be some kind of belief in a capital-A 'Awareness' or other 'realms' or perhaps something like a non-physical 'true nature of things'... just going from what I remember of my neo-Advaita months and from a few other things. I can see how concentration meditations don't have to involve delusions but what about the "insight" stuff?

As for not trying something new, well all of those periodic 'realisations' are in essence about trying some new way of approaching actualism that might suddenly work. I think most of the actualist terms are sufficiently vague as to allow this kind of thing, 'oh this is what attentiveness might mean', 'oh this is what pure intent is'.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/9/11 7:32 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Adam Bieber:

Nad A:
it's about pain/discomfort and sometimes fatigue.


Well if its pain specifically, then that is not a psycho-social "feeling" to decrease. If its resentment toward a pain you have then that can decrease. Yes, resentment will come back again and again. Eventually, while being attentive many times and neither expressing or repressing the resentment, it will decrease in intensity but first you gotta do the work. It will not evaporate until one reaches AF. You may not notice the decrease in intensity as any resentment is and feels like suffering but it will arise less and less and less powerful. When you are not attentive and the resentment arises, you are most likely repressing or expressing the resentment in some way causing it to be increasingly painful.


Ok, so with pain-resentment there may well be no beliefs at all. Just a bud to nip again and again. If 'attentiveness' could start working consistently for a few months maybe the constant nipping in the bud would get somewhere.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/9/11 8:56 PM as a reply to Daniel Johnson.
Hey Daniel,

Daniel Johnson:
Bruno Loff:
the only person I ever heard of geting AF without any known meditative practice was Tom.


Who is Tom?


go to http://www.actualfreedom.com.au

see giant boldned "Long-Awaited Public Announcements" in the middle of the home page.




PS: not much info is known about Tom. He, Pamela, Vineeto, and Peter were four of the first actually free people. They all went the "direct route". That is they did not become actually free via the route from enlightenment. At the time it seemed that the direct route would be the main route to actual freedom, and then a handfull of people became actually free via enlightenment(if only partial "enlightenment") here on the DhO. Interesting times.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/9/11 11:45 PM as a reply to Nad A..
Through attentiveness, you'll find out why you resent pain. Its probably because "you" feel it limits "you" in some way. With proper and constant attentiveness, it could detract in a very short amount of time.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/10/11 6:12 AM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Adam Bieber:
With proper and constant attentiveness, it could detract in a very short amount of time.


I know what constant attentiveness means. What is proper attentiveness? What's an example of incorrect/improper attentiveness?

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/10/11 10:39 AM as a reply to Nad A..
http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/attentivenesssensuousnessapperceptiveness.htm

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/13/11 5:57 PM as a reply to aaron ..
We may have limited data about actualism, but it's no small data set for those going through the spiritual path and trying to get enlightened. Statistically speaking, your chance of getting stream entry within a few months (if at all) is quite small your chance of getting DhO "fourth path" is even smaller. I've put in a good 12 years on the spiritual path, including long retreats, and plenty of time trying to practice DhO-style meditation techniques, and still no stream entry that I'm aware of. I don't know if meditation will be helpful for you or not, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that it could become a long detour.

Vineeto:
In my experience with using spiritual methodology for 17 years and using the method of actualism for the past four years, I can verify that actualism is the short-cut. My life has already become unrecognisably better than it was four years ago



I like this quote from Richard for "getting out of stuckness" and wonder if it might apply to your situation with resentment....

Richard:
To get out of stuckness and induce a Pure Consciousness Experience one gets off one’s backside and does whatever one knows best to activate delight. From the position of delight, one can vitalize one’s joie de vivre by the amazement at the fun of it all ... and then one can – with sufficient abandon – become over-joyed and move into marvelling at being here and doing this business called being alive. Then one is no longer intellectually making sense of life ... the wonder of it all drives all intellectual sense away. Such delicious wonder fosters the innate condition of naiveté (which is the closest one can get to innocence ) the nourishing of which is essential if the charm of it all is to occur. Then, as one stares intently at the world about by glancing lightly with caressing eyes, out of the corner of one’s eye comes – sweetly – the magical fairy-tale-like paradise that this verdant earth actually is ... and I am the experiencing of what is happening. But try not to possess it and make it your own ... or else ‘twill vanish as softly as it appeared.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/14/11 2:08 AM as a reply to Daniel Johnson.
Daniel Johnson:
We may have limited data about actualism, but it's no small data set for those going through the spiritual path and trying to get enlightened. Statistically speaking, your chance of getting stream entry within a few months (if at all) is quite small your chance of getting DhO "fourth path" is even smaller. I've put in a good 12 years on the spiritual path, including long retreats, and plenty of time trying to practice DhO-style meditation techniques, and still no stream entry that I'm aware of. I don't know if meditation will be helpful for you or not, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that it could become a long detour.


Hi Daniel,

It is clear from your posts that you are leaning towards the "Just do AF and dump enlightenment" route, which is fair enough and your own call.

I think there is some misinformation in your post here though. It is quite clear to me that someone intent on stream-entry will definitely get it. How long? I don't know. Who cares? Probably not too long.
It is also clear to me that someone intent on 4th path will get it. Not sure how long.

As in your case, since there's no 'I know I can do it', which seems to have led to 'I'm not gonna do it', and that obviously leads to 'I'll take the shortcut'. (Assumption here).

But an even more dangerous assumption that jumps out at me from your post is: 'I couldn't do it' -> 'Its almost impossible to get it done'.
The whole point behind the DhO is 'YOU CAN DO IT', with 'IT" being (originally, mainly) stream-entry, arahatship, and now AF.


But since you haven't gotten AF yet, I don't think you can clearly make a firm conclusion that it is indeed a 'shortcut'.
In your post it seems as if you are making a firm conclusion based on facts (your own limited experience) that stream-entry is not very possible, nor is 4th path, but AF surely is.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/14/11 2:06 PM as a reply to Yadid dee.
Yadid B:
Daniel Johnson:
We may have limited data about actualism, but it's no small data set for those going through the spiritual path and trying to get enlightened. Statistically speaking, your chance of getting stream entry within a few months (if at all) is quite small your chance of getting DhO "fourth path" is even smaller. I've put in a good 12 years on the spiritual path, including long retreats, and plenty of time trying to practice DhO-style meditation techniques, and still no stream entry that I'm aware of. I don't know if meditation will be helpful for you or not, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that it could become a long detour.


Hi Daniel,

It is clear from your posts that you are leaning towards the "Just do AF and dump enlightenment" route, which is fair enough and your own call.

I think there is some misinformation in your post here though. It is quite clear to me that someone intent on stream-entry will definitely get it. How long? I don't know. Who cares? Probably not too long.
It is also clear to me that someone intent on 4th path will get it. Not sure how long.

As in your case, since there's no 'I know I can do it', which seems to have led to 'I'm not gonna do it', and that obviously leads to 'I'll take the shortcut'. (Assumption here).

But an even more dangerous assumption that jumps out at me from your post is: 'I couldn't do it' -> 'Its almost impossible to get it done'.
The whole point behind the DhO is 'YOU CAN DO IT', with 'IT" being (originally, mainly) stream-entry, arahatship, and now AF.


But since you haven't gotten AF yet, I don't think you can clearly make a firm conclusion that it is indeed a 'shortcut'.
In your post it seems as if you are making a firm conclusion based on facts (your own limited experience) that stream-entry is not very possible, nor is 4th path, but AF surely is.


Additionally, a statistical analysis of SE's likelihood is too abstract, if not downright misleading. IMO, whether SE occurs is not random-- nor is it mechanical, though, which is why people can apply techniques for a long time without crossing that line. There is an element of intent here which is key, of having enough of one's being on-board in order to cross that line. Actually, it seems that some folks can cross the line via fairly sloppy meditation technique, in a relatively short period, if they are "ripe".

So asking what constitutes ripeness is a salient question in the context of any transformative path, I think. There needs to be an intention infusing the practice which is operating at a level deeper than the conventional, social self, whether one's goal is virtual/actual freedom, or SE/higher paths, IMO. Insight paths of whatever stripe require sufficiently pure intent to really get off the ground, or else they will merely be means for re-arranging the furniture, generating different experiences, rather than producing insight into the nature and function of experience.
--Jake

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/14/11 2:25 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
Just trying to feel the continuous pleasure of apperceptive awareness.

RE: Feeling Miserable About Pain/Discomfort/Fatigue
Answer
5/15/11 10:56 AM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
I'd suggest just trying to be totally present. Once you start "believing" in a future pain becomes afflictive and not merely sensory experience. If you are totally in the present with your pain, it becomes just another sensation, the concept that there is a real future without that pain makes you panic and try to flail futilely and painfully toward that imagined future, just be here now and know that the present is the only real time.