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Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane

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Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/1/20 3:05 PM
I've been hiding (attached might be a better word) in the spectral witness plane. This is where one can disembody and sort of move into the surrounding space and witness myself around myself. How useful is this really? It seems like its just another damn trinket. 

Thoughts?

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/1/20 4:21 PM as a reply to Bardo.
How do you do that? 

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/1/20 5:14 PM as a reply to Bardo.
Out of body experience? have no experience with that personally but heard of folks having such. 

All Experience is just that, an Experience and very much worth of investigation. Weather Jhana, Itching or what you describe. 

I would Note the Hell Out Of It emoticon If you do please report about your findings. Might be useful in case it happens in my practice. 

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/1/20 8:59 PM as a reply to Bardo.
I think it's fine as long as your path isn't the road to Lala land. Perhaps if we care to acknowledge that this can be experientially proven within us, that it is a "real" thing then maybe that will just help us realize how powerful the mind's capabilities really are and we don't fully understand that yet. But It's probably for the best we consider these non-ordinary states of reality as just a play of intuition & creativity to avoid the risk of confusing the metaphysical with moral abstraction. The usefulness of this technology is based on subjective qualifiers...
It's really up to you to create your own answer to that question.
It can be fun! That reason is purposeful enough, no? That encourages aesthetic growth of the character! emoticon
What makes it damnable? One of the downsides of thinking too much is we insist on intellectualizing so critically we miss out on its value experientially and that goes for so much in this life.

You're doing great! Surely if you keep trying you definitely will exploit your profound insights. Just remember to balance your existential pondering of infinity with some whimsy and wonder. 

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 1:09 AM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
What makes it damnable?

It's unsatisfactory. It has been helpful in the knowing of phenomena, that is: all phenomena passes by with an impersonal nature - form, feeling, perception, intention and consciousness.

I cannot say that I am that disembodied experience or my perception of that experience which I define to be the space that surrounds me. I cannot say also that I am the body or the processes that occur in the body. This kicks up a lot of kleshes. My mind wants to know precisely what I am but I'm taking it to a place where it cannot possibly know that. Old feelings and thoughts return with which I view as pre-defined troughs that haven't quite worn themselves out.

There's a ghost-like appearance to the idea of me but it hangs around looking for scraps of me through memories. It seems very much residual, partial and threaded; desperate, anguished and distressed. It's like catching the odour of gas but not being able to locate its source.

So, to add a little more to the disembodied experience: It's useful but not the end goal. I would prefer if people would refrain from replying with "there's never an end to this", or various permutations thereof. This disembodied experience comes with the quality of spaciousness. I work heavily with the aggregates. I can see my intention (sankhara) to shift into this space based on my perception (sanna) of current situations. This intention is fuelled by aversion and attraction. I could go much deeper in explaining this but the primary question may become lost.

Would love to read more of your thoughts on this? 

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 1:14 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
How do you do that? 

I purchased myself a wizard hat from the fancy dress shop. emoticon

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 2:02 AM as a reply to Bardo.
If you don't want to answer, that's fine. Maybe I shouldn't have asked. 

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 2:41 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda, I'm very frustrated with it all. Apologies if it comes through in my replies. 

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 3:02 AM as a reply to Bardo.
No worries. I was being insensitive. I'm impressed, that's all. But you want answers, and I don't have any. 

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 3:05 AM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
Che Guebuddha:
Out of body experience? have no experience with that personally but heard of folks having such. 

All Experience is just that, an Experience and very much worth of investigation. Weather Jhana, Itching or what you describe. 

I would Note the Hell Out Of It emoticon If you do please report about your findings. Might be useful in case it happens in my practice. 

Yes, an out-of-body experience which can be conjured at will. When it first arrives it's a nice experience but after some time it begins to annoy perhaps because, like you say, it's another perception of mind. Attaching to something that seems permanent... well, you know the mantra, suffering, not-self and so forth.

Sometimes it occurs spontaneously and sometimes I purposefully put myself there mostly to avoid something about my body. 

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 3:12 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
No worries. I was being insensitive. I'm impressed, that's all. But you want answers, and I don't have any. 

I understand. I broke-down this morning. Even in my crying there was nowhere to go, so I stopped. Going to head into my morning meditation.

Be well. emoticon

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 3:35 AM as a reply to Bardo.
Thats great as you seem to already know whats happening; "conjure at will" = Intention/desire (where in the body is this sensation), "Nice experience" = pleasant feeling (can you still sense it in the body even if you have such out-of-body exp?, "begins to annoy" = unpleasant, "to avoid something" = intention, avoidance, unpleasant, "attaching to something permanent" = maybe Fear of Dissolving, it certainly has craving stamped all over it and is a very fine object to investigate, one sensation after the other.

We all different (as Forrest Gump's mum use to say) and in my case it does help to put the "meditator" onto the side bench and bring out the "scientist" into the Noting field to do the objective matter of fact dry un-cool, non-poetic dissection of my sensate univerese (yes its unpleasant at time especially if he brings in dull scalpels emoticon  )

Very interesting stuff you have going there with so much fun material, Im a bit envious really emoticon 

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 5:13 AM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
Che Guebuddha:
Thats great as you seem to already know whats happening; "conjure at will" = Intention/desire (where in the body is this sensation), "Nice experience" = pleasant feeling (can you still sense it in the body even if you have such out-of-body exp?, "begins to annoy" = unpleasant, "to avoid something" = intention, avoidance, unpleasant, "attaching to something permanent" = maybe Fear of Dissolving, it certainly has craving stamped all over it and is a very fine object to investigate, one sensation after the other.

Ok. So I finished meditating and sat with eyes open while noting. (I don't tend to note in meditation, I seem to have developed my own knack for meditating in my own way - it's probably a method somewhere though) However, while noting there is this very subtle movement which can be summed up in words like so, "there is nothing to realize". It can be very easy to miss. My mind finds this difficult to reconcile with but there is another part of me that is intrigued and curious. What gives?

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 9:20 AM as a reply to Bardo.
These questions and maybe even doubts are really something and seem to always find a way in emoticon for example right now I have this re-occurting question "Does Karma really go on into a next life, is there really re-birth, where will I take birth if I attain this or that, ... " etc ... etc .. etc ... on that subject emoticon yah emoticon 

Here I am VERY gratefull to Kenneth Folk as each time I asked him anything really he would say "touch the ground and do a reality check, like; is this/or is that/or have I attained or ... say, I dont know let me see (in a curious naive way with naive smile one one's face) ; itching, warmth, tension, doubt, coolness, hearing, seeing, vibrations, pleasant, ... 

emoticon really cool stuff if you ask me! Im sure by now you can see that I a big fan of this reality check Freestyle Noting Aloud with eyes open and sitting on the chair instead of being cool looking on my Seiza bench or half-lotus ect fancy mighty meditator way of creating something to feel proud about. 


But back to your subtle movement of "there is nothign to realise" and mind having difficulty to reconcile and part that is intrigued and intreseting.

I feel very happy for you having that part that is intrigued and interesting. Sure one could go all booth camp and dismatle all experience but I would use this intrigued and interesed part to fuel the investigation of the part "difficult to reconcile" and note the heck out of it in form of its body sensations (if any) or feeling flavour if any or else like mind states ...

I am interested in hearing more on those subtle movements that sum up into those words. Words are of no interest as they can easily be thrown into the loop as thinking with some sort of feeling behind itlike pleasant , unpleasant, neutral. 
If you get this movement again I would give it extra investigation.

BTW, did you try Noting Aloud with eyes open or just Noting in the mind? I mean did you attach a tag to each sensation like ; air in the nostrils being COOLNESS, feeling of the but agaist the cushion like TOUCHING etc or was it more like free awareness noting? Just curious. I naively assumed that most folks on this forum practice according to the Map school, mostly Noting but I see this is not the case.Which is ok and hence curious to hear more. I say this as back in my Shamatha days I was very much gainst all that Noting stuff and someone sugesting me such approach was very quickly dissmissed emoticon and that is of course ok. Its my Mind afterall emoticon 

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 10:10 AM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
These questions and maybe even doubts are really something and seem to always find a way in emoticon for example right now I have this re-occurting question "Does Karma really go on into a next life, is there really re-birth, where will I take birth if I attain this or that,

Yes, that can become quite obsessive. I found my way into the caverns of rebirth (the word rebirth isn't entirely fitting for the process) through remaining with my here-and-now experience as there are many deaths and births occurring in the very moment with myself and other people. Knowledge arises around a sort of cosmic plane or one might use a more down-to-earth term, perhaps knowledge of the bigger picture at play. It becomes a little like studying the growth of a flower from seed to death. We discover that there is no beginning or end to the series of events related to the flower, its growth and its death. Even more fascinating, the flower is dependent on other forms, sun, earth, water. In some ways, the flower is the entire universe. However, humans pop by and claim to have exclusivity over their existence. How absurd!

really cool stuff if you ask me! Im sure by now you can see that I a big fan of this reality check Freestyle Noting Aloud with eyes open and sitting on the chair instead of being cool looking on my Seiza bench or half-lotus ect fancy mighty meditator way of creating something to feel proud about. 

Yes, noting has been very helpful for me. I've been cross-noting with things in my environment but my resources lay more in satipatthana practice. 

I am interested in hearing more on those subtle movements that sum up into those words.


Yes, I agree. I try to develop a discernment for these very simple things. They're so simple that they are easily missed. Mind is geared towards form. It seeks form. It creates form. 

BTW, did you try Noting Aloud with eyes open or just Noting in the mind?

Ah, yes. It was silent free-form noting. 

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 10:28 AM as a reply to Bardo.
That sounds like what I think of as the dance of stillness, inspired by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, although I cannot be entirely sure that what I experience is in fact what he talks about.

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 12:07 PM as a reply to Bardo.
"Mind is geared towards form" emoticon I love this sentence emoticon  I might use it in a song if you dont mind? 

Thanks for your writing Im looking forward to following your thread here!

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 1:38 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
That sounds like what I think of as the dance of stillness, inspired by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, although I cannot be entirely sure that what I experience is in fact what he talks about.

Yes, a dance is a beautiful way to describe it. If you can imagine superposition in the quantum world, particles emerge from nowhere, disappear and reappear somewhere else at phenomenal speed; If you can imagine the molecular world, the cellular world, organs, bodies, societies, ecosystems, worlds, solar systems, galaxies. If you can imagine the entirety of all of this splendour in play alongside the Jackie Wilson song, (Your Love Keeps Lifting Me) Higher and Higher, then this just barely approximates the supreme love that is at work.

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 4:53 PM as a reply to Bardo.
Bardo:
What makes it damnable?

It's unsatisfactory. It has been helpful in the knowing of phenomena, that is: all phenomena passes by with an impersonal nature - form, feeling, perception, intention and consciousness.

I cannot say that I am that disembodied experience or my perception of that experience which I define to be the space that surrounds me. I cannot say also that I am the body or the processes that occur in the body. This kicks up a lot of kleshes. My mind wants to know precisely what I am but I'm taking it to a place where it cannot possibly know that. Old feelings and thoughts return with which I view as pre-defined troughs that haven't quite worn themselves out.

There's a ghost-like appearance to the idea of me but it hangs around looking for scraps of me through memories. It seems very much residual, partial and threaded; desperate, anguished and distressed. It's like catching the odour of gas but not being able to locate its source.

So, to add a little more to the disembodied experience: It's useful but not the end goal. I would prefer if people would refrain from replying with "there's never an end to this", or various permutations thereof. This disembodied experience comes with the quality of spaciousness. I work heavily with the aggregates. I can see my intention (sankhara) to shift into this space based on my perception (sanna) of current situations. This intention is fuelled by aversion and attraction. I could go much deeper in explaining this but the primary question may become lost.

Would love to read more of your thoughts on this? 

What is your "end goal"; the truth behind this one's existence or better understanding of this reality? Perhaps the reason this practice would be unsatisfactory is precisely because it is not supposed to bring you any closer to either of those. Not all phenomena are impersonal. Trying to understand this creation while you are in another creation is like hammering a nail with a screwdriver! That's a reality of your making, so it's very personal!

Our subconscious memory keeps tabs of every bit of stimuli that has ever entered our field of experience. From birth, every sense organ has been turned on recording information and storing it away. Being able to access this stockpile of memory means being able to capture a universe in our imagination. But it is a universe based on your thought, thought which is based on your knowledge, and knowledge that is based on your experience. It can be absolutely interesting, but like that, it won't satiate your kind of appetite. You shouldn't want to perform these acts if you crave divine knowledge. It's like falling asleep when you intend to meditate, you don't want that. Similarly, like a dream is a mental construct some OBEs are mental constructions too. There are probably several that are not, i'm no expert. Astral projection can have a range of density or lack thereof but still needs to constitute an etheric tether to the being, its nonphysical so it spans space but its always there like a safety harness. Projecting consciousness is noncorporeal and all-inclusive, everything and everywhere is the centerpoint, you are the centerpoint. Both of these are personal. All the context for these come from inside you, they are given structure by your life and experience of it. It's like having a vr universe actively rendering, the experience is being created as it happens. It's not the same space we are in right now at this moment. If you want to understand this world, stay in this world emoticon

If you'd like to continue hammering that nail with this screwdriver then go-ahead, it should inevitably work anyway. I would be a lier and a fool if I said it was impossible, it can just be dangerous... but there's nothing damnable about them, they're functional in other ways  

RE: Hiding in the Spectral Witness Plane
Answer
2/2/20 9:38 PM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
I see. Interesting reply. I was going through some difficulty yesterday. It seems to have passed.

Thanks for your reply.