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What is really DhO 4th path?

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Rin Maryu, modified 9 Years ago.

What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 83 Join Date: 5/1/11 Recent Posts
Since I'm new here, does DhO 4th path involve seeing the Emptiness/Self/Absolute? Is it a constant identification with the Emptiness? Or is this on another axis of development?

What is the criteria for 4th path? Does it manifest like a complete cessation (like stream entry)?
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
What exactly is it that you're looking to find out here?

There's no such thing as DhO 4th path, Nick generally refers to 4th path as "MCTB 4th path" as he doesn't agree that arahatship as defined in Daniel's book, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, is the same as the classical Buddhist definition of arahatship. This is something Nick could tell you more about, and no doubt other can offer a different view.

As for what happens at 4th path, the perceptual field becomes unified and the self is seen as being as transient and empty as anything else manifesting in awareness. I don't know exactly how you'd define criteria for it (other than being able to enter nirodha samapatti and the 'pure land' jhanas but this is probably more relevant when diagnosing 3rd path) perhaps other could offer some input here?

Hope that helps.
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 3159 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
There is no clear and perfect consensus here about exactly what arahatship is, being an ongoing and thoughtful discussion among community members, though people do use the word to describe their own practice at times, as do I, and so long as you read the fine print about exactly what they are claiming arahatship is, all goes along pretty well.

There is still a long-running debate about the relationship to the 10 Fetters and how this related to perceiving the field of experience as completely and utterly transient, empty of a subject-perceiver-doer-centerpoint, etc, as well as how this relates to more traditional models (limited action models, etc) as what, if anything, this has to do with AF. I am not going to solve those controversies here, but present my take on them in MCTB (a book related to the DhO, is not its bedrock or definitive dogmatic authority), which at least defines how I use the term arahat with what I feel is more clarity than most bring to the term, but that doesn't mean that it is the only way the word is used or the be-all-and-end-all on the subject, not by a long shot.

How does the question relate to what you are trying to do or experiencing right now, this being the generally most useful and practical thing to focus on in these debates?

Daniel, Arahat
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Rin Maryu, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 83 Join Date: 5/1/11 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:


How does the question relate to what you are trying to do or experiencing right now, this being the generally most useful and practical thing to focus on in these debates?



I already had a non-dual realization of Emptiness (where self and 'other' did not arise) and it seems to me that 4th path as discussed here is something else than that. So, I'm trying to attain 4th path, but (since my experience is now dual) I don't know should I stabilize the experience of Emptiness or look for something else.
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Rin Maryu, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 83 Join Date: 5/1/11 Recent Posts
Tommy M:
What exactly is it that you're looking to find out here?


I'm trying to line up my experience with the MCTB model of enlightenment.

Tommy M:

As for what happens at 4th path, the perceptual field becomes unified and the self is seen as being as transient and empty as anything else manifesting in awareness.


Is there a 'cessation moment' before that happens? Does the feeling of existence still arise at 4th path?

Tommy M:

Hope that helps.


It does. Thank you for the response.
An Eternal Now, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 638 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
Rin Maryu:
Since I'm new here, does DhO 4th path involve seeing the Emptiness/Self/Absolute? Is it a constant identification with the Emptiness? Or is this on another axis of development?

What is the criteria for 4th path? Does it manifest like a complete cessation (like stream entry)?
Hi Rin,

No, Daniel's 4th path has nothing to do with seeing a Self/Absolute.

If that is what you experienced, you will find this map more suitable for you: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

Care to describe your insight/realization and experience?
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Rin Maryu, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 83 Join Date: 5/1/11 Recent Posts
An Eternal Now:
Hi Rin,

No, Daniel's 4th path has nothing to do with seeing a Self/Absolute.

If that is what you experienced, you will find this map more suitable for you: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html


Thanks for the link, I'll study it.

An Eternal Now:

Care to describe your insight/realization and experience?


Yes, I had three complete cessations with differently coloured lights on exits. After the third cessation there was a big 'turning point' in consciousness where self, 'other' and the 'world' dropped out of existence. It's a state with no intention, formless, timeless and yet there is awareness of only one object - I could call that object Emptiness/Self/Absolute. Everything was it.

After the exit from that state I lost the ability to go into cessation (or I'm missing the 4th path cessation - that's what I'm here to find out).
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Eternal Now:

No, Daniel's 4th path has nothing to do with seeing a Self/Absolute.

What do you mean by "Daniel's 4th path"? As far as I know, we're talking about the Theravadan path system and not just a specific map created by Daniel Ingram. Your own teacher, Thusness, presents these things in a very idiosyncratic way and I think you're likely to confuse Rin by referring them to this without further explanation.

As far as having nothing to do with seeing a Self/Absolute, I think you need to be clearer with your statement as it's misleading.

Rin Maryu:


Yes, I had three complete cessations with differently coloured lights on exits. After the third cessation there was a big 'turning point' in consciousness where self, 'other' and the 'world' dropped out of existence. It's a state with no intention, formless, timeless and yet there is awareness of only one object - I could call that object Emptiness/Self/Absolute. Everything was it.


You'll need to be clearer here, to say you had "three complete cessations" doesn't really tell us anything. I've had loads of cessations since starting vipassana, not including nirodha samapatti, but that doesn't mean anything in diagnostic terms other than confirming that I've attained at least 1st path. What's you practice history? What are you doing in practice right now?

Based on what you've said, it's pretty much impossible to be more specific I'm afraid.
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
I have been at 4th path since July 2010 and Ive cried like a baby on many occasions since then. The tester? Relationship problems with significant other. Ok, there was no-one seen in the sadness that came up, and it was all so very not sticky at all. It did not stack like pre-4th. And when it passed it was like it never happened. But I still cried like a baby. I can't for the life of me say this mind/body organism is free from suffering in all honesty. But if asked, I would say I'd never trade 4th path for anything in the world (except AF). A certain suffering is no longer there. But it is still left wanting. Therefore I can't in all honesty call it the fabled arhat-foe destroyer. I'm still plagued by foes. Sticky-free foes, but foes all the same. Maybe it's easier and seems more substantial if I were living in a forest without a care in the world, basking in the freedom that no life attachments (wifey) entails.

Nick (Fetter Model Sakadagami) ;-)

;-(

Boo-hoo-hoo-ya!

Edited to say: I'm just joking, i really dont know what stage this really means. It is better than pre-4th for sure and I'd rather live this way than pre-pat. i try and remember to how it was and I would never want to go back to it for sure. But I really got into it all the dharma to end suffering (as I've suffered like a bitch all my life) and really need to let go of definitions. I've been too fixated on this issue and it really means little in the long run. Nothing to defend. This is the last I will say on what is what as I really have no idea.


Here is a good idea of what happens upon getting 4th path as talked of here:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/664639
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Rin Maryu, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 83 Join Date: 5/1/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:


Here is a good idea of what happens upon getting 4th path as talked of here:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/664639


So, no fruition, just the perception shift. Thanks Nick, your post on that thread is really helpful.
An Eternal Now, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 638 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts

What do you mean by "Daniel's 4th path"? As far as I know, we're talking about the Theravadan path system and not just a specific map created by Daniel Ingram. Your own teacher, Thusness, presents these things in a very idiosyncratic way and I think you're likely to confuse Rin by referring them to this without further explanation.

As far as having nothing to do with seeing a Self/Absolute, I think you need to be clearer with your statement as it's misleading.
rin was asking about DhO's definition of fourth path, which would appear synonymous with daniel's definition of arhatship, correct me if I am wrong. Also, daniel's definition of fourth path is peculiar to his definition of it - as far as I know, no other theravada teachers have defined fourth path in the exact same way as he did, and that definition is not entirely consistent with the classical theravada take on the four paths, and is not a universally agreed upon definition in theravada (most theravadins do not accept daniel's definitions as being what buddha meant, for example)

Also, what I meant by Daniel's fourth path being nothing to do with realizing Self is simply that... Daniel's fourth path, or any path for that matter, does not consist of self-realization.

Daniel did not go through self-realization in his path. The classic theravadin path does not go through this phase. But if you practice advaita or zen, you will go through the phase of self realization. (See first two stages in thusness map)
An Eternal Now, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 638 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
Rin Maryu:


Yes, I had three complete cessations with differently coloured lights on exits. After the third cessation there was a big 'turning point' in consciousness where self, 'other' and the 'world' dropped out of existence. It's a state with no intention, formless, timeless and yet there is awareness of only one object - I could call that object Emptiness/Self/Absolute. Everything was it.

After the exit from that state I lost the ability to go into cessation (or I'm missing the 4th path cessation - that's what I'm here to find out).
when you said everything is it, do you mean sound is it, sight is it, or are you saying something different? Are you saying that subject and object, perceiver and perceived has collapsed into oneness, a nondual field of awareness expressing as every perception?
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Rin Maryu, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 83 Join Date: 5/1/11 Recent Posts
An Eternal Now:
Are you saying that subject and object, perceiver and perceived has collapsed into oneness, a nondual field of awareness expressing as every perception?


Yes, you could say it that way too.
An Eternal Now, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 638 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
Rin Maryu:
An Eternal Now:
Are you saying that subject and object, perceiver and perceived has collapsed into oneness, a nondual field of awareness expressing as every perception?


Yes, you could say it that way too.
If that is the case, it appears you are at the One Mind phase.

I was trained in this 3 aspects:

1. The experience
2. The realization
3. and the View

I will start with 'experience'. There are different experiences in relation to 'no self':

1. Impersonality.

This is the case when practitioners experienced that everything is an expression of a universal cosmic intelligence. There is therefore no sense of a personal doer... rather, it feels like I and everything is being lived by a higher power, being expressed by a higher cosmic intelligence. But this is still dualistic – there is still this sense of separation between a 'cosmic intelligence' and the 'world of experience', so it is still dualistic.

There is also a very important realization - the realization of Pure Presence or Consciousness or Beingness or Existence as being one's true identity. There is an irrefutable undeniable insight into the luminous essence of mind. Actually self-realization is not related to impersonality in the sense that impersonality can be experienced with or without self-realization, however a self-realized person would progress his experience in terms of impersonality. Nevertheless dualistic tendencies are strong and awareness is seen as an eternal witnessing presence, a pure formless perceiving subject. A true experience is being distorted by the mind's tendency at projecting duality and inherency (to things, self, awareness, etc)

2. Non-dual into One Mind.

Where subject and object division collapsed into a single seamless experience of one Naked Awareness.

3. No-Mind

Where even the naked Awareness is totally forgotten and dissolved into simply scenery, sound, arising thoughts and passing scent.

4. Sunyata

My experience here is still at the beginning phase. It is when the 'self' is completely transcended into dependent originated activity. The play of dharma.

Next is the 'Realization'. Having an experience of witnessing, or a state of pure presence, is not the same as having attained self-realization - in that case the practitioner can be said to have an experience, but not insight/realization. Having an experience is not the same as having a realization... for example, you may have a temporary experience where the sense of separation between experiencer and experience suddenly and temporarily dissolves or there is the sense that subject and object has merged... temporarily. This is not yet the realization of non-duality... the realization that separation has been false right from the beginning... there never was separation.

Hence having non-dual samadhis are *not* enlightenment... why? The realization that there never was separation to begin with, hasn't arisen. Therefore you can only have temporary glimpses and experiences of non-dual... where the latent dualistic tendencies continue to surface... and not have seamless, effortless seeing.

And even after seeing through this separation, you may have the realization of non-dual but still fall into substantial non-duality, or One Mind. Why? This is because though we have overcome the bond of duality, our view of reality is still seeing it as 'inherent'. Our view or framework has it that reality must have an inherent essence or substance to it, something permanent, independent, ultimate. So though everything is experienced without separation, the mind still can't overcome the idea of a source. The mind kept coming back to a 'source' and is unable to break-through and find the constant need to rest in an ultimate reality in which everything is a part of... a Mind, an Awareness, a Self.... what this results is a subtle tendency to cling, to sink back to a ground, a source, and so transience cannot be fully appreciated for what it is. It is an important phase however, as for the first time phenomena are no longer seen as 'happening IN Awareness' but 'happening AS Awareness' – Awareness is its object of perception, Awareness is expressing itself as every moment of manifest perception.

However, there is still a constant referencing back to the One Awareness. Until you see that the idea itself is merely a thought, and everything is merely thoughts, sights, sounds, disjoint, disperse, insubstantial. There, a change of view takes place... experience remains non-dual but without the view of 'everything is inside me/everything is an expression of ME' but 'there is just thoughts, sight, sound, taste' – just manifestation. At this point you realize no self in the sense of Anatta – just sight, sound, thoughts, with no one behind or linking them. After anatta, you can then proceed to experience and realize how every experience, every manifestation is the interaction of the entire universe... the total exertion of the universe, the totality of causes and conditions, gives rise to this moment of manifestation.

p.s. described more in my e-journal/e-book, http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html
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Rin Maryu, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 83 Join Date: 5/1/11 Recent Posts
An Eternal Now:
The mind kept coming back to a 'source' and is unable to break-through and find the constant need to rest in an ultimate reality in which everything is a part of... a Mind, an Awareness, a Self.... what this results is a subtle tendency to cling, to sink back to a ground, a source, and so transience cannot be fully appreciated for what it is.


heh my mind is doing exactly that. Thanks Tarin and Eternal Now, I will continue my practice in the direction suggested.
An Eternal Now, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 638 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
Rin Maryu:
An Eternal Now:
The mind kept coming back to a 'source' and is unable to break-through and find the constant need to rest in an ultimate reality in which everything is a part of... a Mind, an Awareness, a Self.... what this results is a subtle tendency to cling, to sink back to a ground, a source, and so transience cannot be fully appreciated for what it is.


heh my mind is doing exactly that. Thanks Tarin and Eternal Now, I will continue my practice in the direction suggested.
I forgot to mention, when you are at the peak of one mind, you will enter no mind territory where source, mind, awareness is forgotten and what's left is the world as it is. But it remains a temporary peak experience until realisation of anatta arises and results in a change of view and therefore effortless and seamless experience. What led me to the realisation of anatta is the contemplation on bahiya sutta so you might want to try that. http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/10/my-commentary-on-bahiya-sutta.html

In seeing is just the seen, seeing is the scenery... In hearing is just the sound, hearing is the music...
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Thanks for clearing that up, and to tarin for his input too.
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tarin greco, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: What is really DhO 4th path?

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
hi rin maryu,

An Eternal Now:

And even after seeing through this separation, you may have the realization of non-dual but still fall into substantial non-duality, or One Mind. Why? This is because though we have overcome the bond of duality, our view of reality is still seeing it as 'inherent'. Our view or framework has it that reality must have an inherent essence or substance to it, something permanent, independent, ultimate. So though everything is experienced without separation, the mind still can't overcome the idea of a source. The mind kept coming back to a 'source' and is unable to break-through and find the constant need to rest in an ultimate reality in which everything is a part of... a Mind, an Awareness, a Self.... what this results is a subtle tendency to cling, to sink back to a ground, a source, and so transience cannot be fully appreciated for what it is. It is an important phase however, as for the first time phenomena are no longer seen as 'happening IN Awareness' but 'happening AS Awareness' – Awareness is its object of perception, Awareness is expressing itself as every moment of manifest perception.

i agree with the general thrust of an eternal now's post, immediately above. i progressed through (what i take to be) the territory he's describing here heavily influenced by ingram's path model, and identify the experience of phenomena as 'happening IN Awareness' as a consistent experience of early 3rd path, the experience of phenomena as 'happening AS Awareness' as late 3rd, ...

An Eternal Now:

However, there is still a constant referencing back to the One Awareness. Until you see that the idea itself is merely a thought, and everything is merely thoughts, sights, sounds, disjoint, disperse, insubstantial. There, a change of view takes place... experience remains non-dual but without the view of 'everything is inside me/everything is an expression of ME' but 'there is just thoughts, sight, sound, taste' – just manifestation. At this point you realize no self in the sense of Anatta – just sight, sound, thoughts, with no one behind or linking them. After anatta, you can then proceed to experience and realize how every experience, every manifestation is the interaction of the entire universe... the total exertion of the universe, the totality of causes and conditions, gives rise to this moment of manifestation.

.... and this above description, as (MCTB's) 4th path.

of course, this was my own personal progression, and while i think ingram would generally agree with my assessment (and this is relevant, as the 'dho 4th path' you are asking about is essentially drawn from his account/description), it may be important to understand that the various describable shifts do not actually seem to happen in the same order for everyone (nor do all of them necessarily show up). in fact, at a certain point, i wondered if we weren't just all playing musical chairs with various inter-locking realisations and perspectives, and that there was no uniform direction to head... but i digress (maybe).


*

one more point, as you say it is 4th path you are after: after 4th path, for me, the sensations that implied a 'self' no longer had a relationship with (the rest of) phenomena, as being themselves phenomena, they no longer implied an Awareness that phenomena existed in relationship with (including as), which they had previously done. essentially, what this meant was that the whole field 'became' causal, and this opened the way to what i came to view as the important work. but more on that, if you wish, if/when it becomes more relevant.

tarin

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