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Insight into emptiness Kalle Spolander 3/5/20 7:43 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Chris Marti 3/6/20 6:47 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Kalle Spolander 3/6/20 8:46 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Matthew 3/6/20 12:00 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Kalle Spolander 3/6/20 12:03 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Stirling Campbell 3/6/20 7:47 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Mike Smirnoff 3/6/20 11:30 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Papa Che Dusko 3/7/20 2:00 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Kalle Spolander 3/7/20 2:07 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Mike Smirnoff 3/7/20 2:34 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Papa Che Dusko 3/7/20 2:17 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Matthew 3/8/20 8:24 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Mike Smirnoff 3/8/20 9:07 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Matthew 3/9/20 11:21 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Mike Smirnoff 3/9/20 7:51 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Papa Che Dusko 3/9/20 5:52 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness terry 3/13/20 2:27 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Buddhamma 3/6/20 12:02 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness David Matte 3/7/20 6:35 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Papa Che Dusko 3/7/20 2:29 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Kalle Spolander 3/7/20 12:15 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Ni Nurta 3/7/20 7:45 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness terry 3/13/20 2:41 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Kalle Spolander 4/8/20 7:12 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Tim Farrington 4/9/20 2:13 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Not two, not one 3/7/20 1:12 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Ni Nurta 3/10/20 5:57 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Matthew 3/11/20 9:58 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/11/20 10:24 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Mike Smirnoff 3/11/20 10:50 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/11/20 12:19 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Mike Smirnoff 3/11/20 1:55 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness terry 3/13/20 2:58 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Ni Nurta 3/11/20 6:13 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/12/20 12:38 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Ni Nurta 3/12/20 2:13 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/12/20 3:39 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Matthew 3/12/20 1:24 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Ni Nurta 3/12/20 4:59 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Not two, not one 3/13/20 1:30 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/13/20 1:40 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/13/20 1:53 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Ni Nurta 3/14/20 7:01 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness terry 3/13/20 3:28 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/13/20 4:02 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness so Not two, not one 3/13/20 4:19 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness so terry 3/13/20 3:48 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness terry 3/13/20 3:46 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/13/20 4:43 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness terry 3/14/20 6:44 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Ni Nurta 3/13/20 8:49 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness terry 3/13/20 3:52 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Ni Nurta 3/14/20 7:12 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness terry 3/16/20 7:35 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness terry 3/13/20 3:21 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness Kalle Spolander 3/11/20 8:40 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Tim Farrington 4/8/20 2:03 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Kalle Spolander 4/8/20 2:17 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Papa Che Dusko 4/8/20 3:28 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Tim Farrington 4/9/20 2:10 AM
RE: Insight into emptiness John W 3/8/20 6:59 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness Kalle Spolander 3/8/20 10:19 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness John W 3/9/20 12:46 PM
RE: Insight into emptiness terry 3/13/20 2:25 AM
Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/5/20 7:43 PM
Hi everyone. 

So I've meditated fairly seriously for about 2 years I've had a couple of insights before. 

first real insight was when I was in the dark night and out of the blue just realized "It's only a mind-state" and a massive relief just washed over me. 

Second big insight was when i was listening to Loch Kelly and it just clicked. If thoughts come by themselves without my say so then there is no self and I can just complete let go and just float in the river without effort. 

third insight happened last Monday. I've been following Sam Harris and Douglas Harding's advice about turning attention on itself and look for what's looking. And I did it and somehow it clicked. It was empty. Consciousness was empty. I looked in every direction and all I saw was more emptiness. I had no history or name or gender. I was nothing and the world was nothing and everything just was and everything has just always been and it all happens by itself. This insane bliss just washed over me and I just thought "How could I go my entire life without seeing this??!!"

Now I can see emptiness on command with a bit of concentration and I can see the selflessness and all that and it's almost getting to be a bit predictable. Like yeah yeah yeah, it's all empty and great. I get it. What's next? I know that this insight hasn't stabilized and I know that whatever this is isn't it. 

What is this that I'm going through? Does anyone have any advice for helpful strategies at this stage? What can I expect next?

Thanks everyone. I sincerely appreciate all of you! This journey is lonely. I feel a bit like a different species right now. It's impossible to talk about this with anyone I know. 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/6/20 6:47 AM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Now I can see emptiness on command with a bit of concentration and I can see the selflessness and all that and it's almost getting to be a bit predictable. Like yeah yeah yeah, it's all empty and great. I get it. What's next? I know that this insight hasn't stabilized and I know that whatever this is isn't it. 

What if I told you this actually IS it?

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/6/20 8:46 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
There has to be more. Maybe not insights but more stability. I don't live in this insight. I can only stay there for a little while and then I get caught up in my stories and identify with my thoughts. I feel like I've ionly glimpsed the truth and I have an intuition that I still have a long way to go. 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/6/20 12:00 PM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Kalle Spolander:
There has to be more. Maybe not insights but more stability. I don't live in this insight. I can only stay there for a little while and then I get caught up in my stories and identify with my thoughts. I feel like I've ionly glimpsed the truth and I have an intuition that I still have a long way to go. 
From where I see it, your answer is in your question here - you don't live in the insight, you "get it" and then "lose it" by re-identifying with the old patterns. So, naturally, the next step is to learn how to live from that insight all the time. Make your default that place of total radiant unthingable-ness.

As a side note this is exactly the progression outlined in the tradition that Harris and Kelly are drawing from, which is Dzogchen. The progression goes in three steps: introduce/recognize the empty nature of mind, train in stabilizing that recognition, use that recognition to liberate any and all fixations that seem to arise. This is drawn from the Three Statements that Strike the Heart, a three-sentence summary of the entire Dzogchen path.

Loch Kelly calls this second step "Dog Zen" rather than Dzogchen, because the instructions are "Sit (in the recognition of emptiness)... Stay... Stay... Stay..."   emoticon

The late, great master Chogyal Namkhai Norbu gives pragmatic advice for how to do this. First, stop what you're doing and recognize the emptiness you saw before. Then, do some simple activity, like getting up and walking around, until you notice that recognition has vanished. At that point, stop, re-recognize, and resume activity. As you get more and more used to this you can try maintaining that samadhi with more and more complex tasks. In particular, focus on what types of things seem to fall outside of the scope of the nature of mind which cause you to lose recognition. The trick is that literally no experience is outside of this scope, and so whatever you exclude is wherever the insight isn't integrated. So, keep integrating the insight with more and more of your experience until it becomes all-inclusive.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/6/20 12:02 PM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Interesting! Something similar happened to me after my meditation a few days ago. And yes, just like you say I can focus just a bit on it and it isn't as stable or long lasting as I would like it to be. Please keep us posted on what your further findings are into this. Really curious what happens next.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/6/20 12:03 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew:
Kalle Spolander:
There has to be more. Maybe not insights but more stability. I don't live in this insight. I can only stay there for a little while and then I get caught up in my stories and identify with my thoughts. I feel like I've ionly glimpsed the truth and I have an intuition that I still have a long way to go. 
From where I see it, your answer is in your question here - you don't live in the insight, you "get it" and then "lose it" by re-identifying with the old patterns. So, naturally, the next step is to learn how to live from that insight all the time. Make your default that place of total radiant unthingable-ness.

As a side note this is exactly the progression outlined in the tradition that Harris and Kelly are drawing from, which is Dzogchen. The progression goes in three steps: introduce/recognize the empty nature of mind, train in stabilizing that recognition, use that recognition to liberate any and all fixations that seem to arise. This is drawn from the Three Statements that Strike the Heart, a three-sentence summary of the entire Dzogchen path.

Loch Kelly calls this second step "Dog Zen" rather than Dzogchen, because the instructions are "Sit (in the recognition of emptiness)... Stay... Stay... Stay..."   emoticon

The late, great master Chogyal Namkhai Norbu gives pragmatic advice for how to do this. First, stop what you're doing and recognize the emptiness you saw before. Then, do some simple activity, like getting up and walking around, until you notice that recognition has vanished. At that point, stop, re-recognize, and resume activity. As you get more and more used to this you can try maintaining that samadhi with more and more complex tasks. In particular, focus on what types of things seem to fall outside of the scope of the nature of mind which cause you to lose recognition. The trick is that literally no experience is outside of this scope, and so whatever you exclude is wherever the insight isn't integrated. So, keep integrating the insight with more and more of your experience until it becomes all-inclusive.


That is so unbelievably helpful. I don't know any of the theory or terminology. I've basically just started doing it after hearing instructions. What you're eating makes so much sense and is super helpful. I really appreciate that you took the time to outline this for me

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/6/20 7:47 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew:
Kalle Spolander:
There has to be more. Maybe not insights but more stability. I don't live in this insight. I can only stay there for a little while and then I get caught up in my stories and identify with my thoughts. I feel like I've ionly glimpsed the truth and I have an intuition that I still have a long way to go. 

From where I see it, your answer is in your question here - you don't live in the insight, you "get it" and then "lose it" by re-identifying with the old patterns. So, naturally, the next step is to learn how to live from that insight all the time. Make your default that place of total radiant unthingable-ness.

As a side note this is exactly the progression outlined in the tradition that Harris and Kelly are drawing from, which is Dzogchen. The progression goes in three steps: introduce/recognize the empty nature of mind, train in stabilizing that recognition, use that recognition to liberate any and all fixations that seem to arise. This is drawn from the Three Statements that Strike the Heart, a three-sentence summary of the entire Dzogchen path.

Loch Kelly calls this second step "Dog Zen" rather than Dzogchen, because the instructions are "Sit (in the recognition of emptiness)... Stay... Stay... Stay..."   emoticon

The late, great master Chogyal Namkhai Norbu gives pragmatic advice for how to do this. First, stop what you're doing and recognize the emptiness you saw before. Then, do some simple activity, like getting up and walking around, until you notice that recognition has vanished. At that point, stop, re-recognize, and resume activity. As you get more and more used to this you can try maintaining that samadhi with more and more complex tasks. In particular, focus on what types of things seem to fall outside of the scope of the nature of mind which cause you to lose recognition. The trick is that literally no experience is outside of this scope, and so whatever you exclude is wherever the insight isn't integrated. So, keep integrating the insight with more and more of your experience until it becomes all-inclusive.

Just to note that this technique of establishing this seeing is also a feature of Soto Zen, the tradition I now work in. I worked in Dzogchen for 20 years, and really only left because my teacher, the late Lama Tharchin Rinpoche passed away. The two traditions at their base are very compatible.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/7/20 6:35 AM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Alright! This definitely sounds like an inital glimpse of emptiness/no self, colloquially also called an initial spiritual awakening. 
As you already seem to know, the next step is making that state your everyday lived experience. It usually takes many glimpses before settling into a stabilized state of abiding in emptiness. So keep investigating your experience. Eventually the mind will learn to abide there. They you can enjoy, relax, toss back cheetos or do whatever!

Die while youre alive
And then stay absolutely dead
Then do whatever you want
It's all good.
~Bunan

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/6/20 11:30 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew: 

Your post is very helpful. Do you mind sharing the names of the references of  Harris, Kelly and  Chogyal Namkhai Norbu that you mention? They all seem to have written a lot of stuff.

Kalle:

I identify with your post though I've not much to add beyond yes yes, makes sense, nor do I want to take over this thread. I'll write something in my thread "what/who watches" Please comment if you've something to say. Thanks!


RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/7/20 2:00 AM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Kalle Spolander:
There has to be more. Maybe not insights but more stability. I don't live in this insight. I can only stay there for a little while and then I get caught up in my stories and identify with my thoughts. I feel like I've ionly glimpsed the truth and I have an intuition that I still have a long way to go. 

emoticon This is It. The thinking "there has to be more" is it. And that dilemma is It "maybe not insight but more stability". "I don't live in this insight" is also This. "a little bit but then get bought up in stories" is also This.

There is Nothing Other Than This. No matter what face or appearance or feel It has. It can be Jhanic bliss, it can be an irritating itch on the nose, it can be a thought. This Is It! Unless you are utter unconscious emoticon then myriads of things can't spring into consciousness. 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/7/20 2:07 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Everyone is incredibly helpful here.

Mike Smirnoff; feel free to take it over. I'd love to hear more about what happened to you. We're all in this together. 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/7/20 2:17 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
I read some replies here and find it interesting.

Apparently one can Improve on THIS emoticon one can tell IT to sit, stay, stay, stay ... emoticon 
What is staying? 

That very thinking is also Nothing Other Than This. This is to Get the Cosmic Joke. THIS is it! 

THIS, meaning sensate conscious experience flickering in THIS. IT is utterly Complete. Nothing to add, nothing to take away. Nothing to improve. 

Yes. It's so simple it's Mind-boggling emoticon Exactly HA! 

HA!

HA!

(this is the time to be shmacked by a Kyosaku) SHMACK!!!

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/7/20 2:29 AM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Kalle er du Svensk? I'm in Denmark lived in Sweden for many years. 

anyway, this is the talk that tipped me over. This Realisation sure is Cognitive. Something to simply get. 
have a listen as Kenneth is also talking about the dilemma on Improving on THIS emoticon have a good one! 
https://art19.com/shows/deconstructing-yourself/episodes/64e20bae-0aa2-451c-b0a8-119049c64078

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/7/20 2:34 AM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Haha thanks Kalle! 
I wrote it all up in my post what/who watches.


As I said, I don't have much to say for your post  beyond yeah makes sense, yeah makes sense -- and thanks for it -- it opened up a lot inside me from the past and the present and helped me write a longer post. I've had some emptiness experiences too, kinda similar to you I think (you can tell me if you read my post). And I keep having the same feeling that you have of more work needs to be done, but I question it -- maybe letting go of that feeling might be the work remaining to be done (or not -- maybe really there is more work to be done -- I don't know ).

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/7/20 7:45 AM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Kalle Spolander:
Now I can see emptiness on command with a bit of concentration and I can see he selflessness and all that and it's almost getting to be a bit predictable. Like yeah yeah yeah, it's all empty and great. I get it. What's next? I know that this insight hasn't stabilized and I know that whatever this is isn't it. 

What is this that I'm going through? Does anyone have any advice for helpful strategies at this stage? What can I expect next?

Concept of "emptiness" is oversimplification invented to not flood people with nitty gritty details which would be too much for them at first. People always had short attention spans and you also need to package your product in nice package in order to sell it. Just look at us, inside we are nothing like what we appear from outside.

The very fact of being able to experience this emptiness means that you are somewhat inside but this is not yet the level where you really work with structures that make up your mind or can really solve issues directly.

The process that made whatever you went through to get to this "emptiness" that you mention is creating in your mind layers something which is basically the same thing as the one you went through. This process is not even something you need to stop but it is something to be aware of and you need to act accordingly. After all you already proven to have the skill to go through, right?

What next? Check some mind stuffy stuff, try something out, poke here and there... you know, insight meditation, get insight through investigation emoticon

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/7/20 12:15 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
Kalle er du Svensk? I'm in Denmark lived in Sweden for many years. 

anyway, this is the talk that tipped me over. This Realisation sure is Cognitive. Something to simply get. 
have a listen as Kenneth is also talking about the dilemma on Improving on THIS emoticon have a good one! 
https://art19.com/shows/deconstructing-yourself/episodes/64e20bae-0aa2-451c-b0a8-119049c64078

Yes I am but I've lived in America for over a decade. 

I'll listen to it on my way to work! Thanks!

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/7/20 1:12 PM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
For now, stabilising and extending these states is great work to do. But both the suttas and some Tibetan traditions will note that eventually you go beyond them. Not beyond in the sense of an even more transcendant sublime state, but beyond in the sense of not needing even the emptiness. This blowing out of the flame of self, the final destruction of ignorance, the switching off of the sankhara generating mechanism, still remains. Then you are liberated whether you are angry or happy, expanded or contracted, absorbed or scattered. Free to be human.  Free to be absorbed in emptiness whenever you want too.

Ni Nurta notes what to do when you are ready (no rush yet)

"The process that made whatever you went through to get to this "emptiness" that you mention is creating in your mind layers something which is basically the same thing as the one you went through. This process is not even something you need to stop but it is something to be aware of and you need to act accordingly. After all you already proven to have the skill to go through, right? .... What next? Check some mind stuffy stuff, try something out, poke here and there... you know, insight meditation, get insight through investigation emoticon"

Except I would say you do eventually need to stop the other process Ni Nurta is pointing to. After stabilising the emptiness, you can look inside to find the thing that still supports the ego. See if you can work out what is still driving the subtle remaining conceit, restless, ignorance, and craving for emptiness. You can look for the surprising and shocking moment of insight and use its plasticity to purify and let go of what you find. To purify the final delusion ... but all that comes later, after the emptiness is stable.

Just my opinion.  Your mileage may vary!

Malcolm


RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/8/20 8:24 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
I read some replies here and find it interesting.

Apparently one can Improve on THIS emoticon one can tell IT to sit, stay, stay, stay ... emoticon 
What is staying? 

That very thinking is also Nothing Other Than This. This is to Get the Cosmic Joke. THIS is it! 

THIS, meaning sensate conscious experience flickering in THIS. IT is utterly Complete. Nothing to add, nothing to take away. Nothing to improve. 

Yes. It's so simple it's Mind-boggling emoticon Exactly HA! 

HA!

HA!

(this is the time to be shmacked by a Kyosaku) SHMACK!!!
Lol!

If we play fast and loose, we can provisionally define dharma roughly as “the practice of looking at reality.” I was emphasizing “the practice of looking at,” and here you’re emphasizing “reality.”

[Darth Vader voice] Join me, and together we can rule samsara as one guy on a forum and another guy on a forum.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/8/20 9:07 AM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew: sorry to bother you again -- but I'd be thankful if you could suggest to me the names of the references of Harris, etc. that you mentioned (I responded to a post of yours previously in this thread). I'm assuming here that you did not see that message. If you did see it, but chose not to respond, sorry to pester you again.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/9/20 11:21 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Matthew: sorry to bother you again -- but I'd be thankful if you could suggest to me the names of the references of Harris, etc. that you mentioned (I responded to a post of yours previously in this thread). I'm assuming here that you did not see that message. If you did see it, but chose not to respond, sorry to pester you again.
Ah sorry, missed that. 

Loch Kelly has two books, the first of which is called Way of Effortless Mindfulness, where he lays out his approach. 

Harris has a book called Waking Up, where he presents his very secular, un-Buddhist way of looking at awakening. 

Namkhai Norbu has a whole lot of material and it’s hard to recommend something particular, but there is a YouTube video where he specifically discusses integrating insight into activity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFSYoegb2No

In Italian, so wait for the translator.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/8/20 6:59 PM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
What's your routine like? Those sound like some great insights.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/8/20 10:19 PM as a reply to John W.
John W:
What's your routine like? Those sound like some great insights.

I'm a mixed bag of tricks, man. 

I started meditating with Sam Harris app Waking Up. I tried to my best ability to turn attention upon itself. His idea is to first pay attention on something like the breath and then see where attention itself comes from and to investigate where the center or attention is and not finding a center is the finding. I realized that the breath is where the breath is. I don't pay attention to it from somewhere; there is just breath. And sound. And sensations in the body. All of them in their own place experienced through consciousness. 

After that I worked with regular mindfulness for a while. I tried focusing on my breath and had like a routine where I tried to hit a personal best. I did this for a while until I realized concentration is more about letting go of what's not important as opposed to clinging to something. 

After that I came across Loch Kelly through Sam Harris and that's when it clicked. I listened to a podcast with him and it all came together. If there's no center or free will and things just come and go by itself then there's no need to swim against the current. I can just let go. 

After that my practice was all about letting go. That was all I practiced for months. Let go of everything. The desire to concentrate, thoughts, sensations, memories. Let it all go and just float. The idea is that all of the things we do well are done without thought. When you drive you've practiced so much that you can just drive without paying attention at all. So since we've practiced talking and thinking a lot more we should be able to just do it in a flow state and just let things happen so I try to do that. 

Also while doing that I try sometimes to see where the concentration comes from. I focus on trying to experience all the sensations right here and right now. Also I try to let go throughout the day. Notice when I'm lost in thought and just let go. Formal training I do about 1.5 hours a day. I try to go in an hour before work and sit in my car and meditate. I do about 30 minutes every lunch. 

what else? I did mushrooms a couple of times initially and I think I was able to glimpse a couple of cool ideas. I was able to thoroughly enjoy the beauty of nature and experience exceptionally strong equanimity and I think that made me believe that this whole thing was possible. 

hopefully there's some ideas in here that will work for you. Ask any questions if there's something I can develop further or explain better. 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/9/20 5:52 AM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew:
Papa Che Dusko:
I read some replies here and find it interesting.

Apparently one can Improve on THIS emoticon one can tell IT to sit, stay, stay, stay ... emoticon 
What is staying? 

That very thinking is also Nothing Other Than This. This is to Get the Cosmic Joke. THIS is it! 

THIS, meaning sensate conscious experience flickering in THIS. IT is utterly Complete. Nothing to add, nothing to take away. Nothing to improve. 

Yes. It's so simple it's Mind-boggling emoticon Exactly HA! 

HA!

HA!

(this is the time to be shmacked by a Kyosaku) SHMACK!!!
Lol!

If we play fast and loose, we can provisionally define dharma roughly as “the practice of looking at reality.” I was emphasizing “the practice of looking at,” and here you’re emphasizing “reality.”

[Darth Vader voice] Join me, and together we can rule samsara as one guy on a forum and another guy on a forum.


The wisest thing to do is ignore me totally emoticon I just went to fill up my dogs dry food and came back to him with a plate full of wood pellets!!! emoticon  The bag with dog food is beside the bag with wood pellets (for our heating system). My mind as of late is just not being helpfull at all; forgetting where my wallet and iPhone are! Where my keys are! Feeding the dog with wood pellets! Whats next? Forgetting to set the clock alarm for work!!! Jeez emoticon 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/9/20 7:51 AM as a reply to Matthew.
Thank you Matthew! I've started looking at them. I'll write back with questions.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/9/20 12:46 PM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Nice, no that's really helpful. 1.5-2 hours a day is pretty doable, that's about what I've been averaging lately. I'll check out that podcast, sounds interesting.

Haven't tried a formal meditation on mushrooms but look forward to trying it.
Most of my many hallucinogenic experiences occurred before I started meditating, for better or worse, though I think it's healthy to assume they have positively impacted my outlook on 'what's possible' emoticon

Cheers and best of luck on your journey.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/10/20 5:57 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
curious:
Except I would say you do eventually need to stop the other process Ni Nurta is pointing to. After stabilising the emptiness, you can look inside to find the thing that still supports the ego. See if you can work out what is still driving the subtle remaining conceit, restless, ignorance, and craving for emptiness. You can look for the surprising and shocking moment of insight and use its plasticity to purify and let go of what you find. To purify the final delusion ... but all that comes later, after the emptiness is stable.

Processes such as these will exhaust themselves naturally when there is nothing to trigger them which is mostly effects of their own workings supported by tendency of mind to like to feel in certain ways. Mostly because of ignorance. Not knowing better.

Even after years of not having anything like this it can so happen it will start working.
The best approach for me in this case seems to be just to go directly to the mind state I want and I do not need to do anything else. There is nothing to stop.
This kinda makes me wonder that if I knew what mind state I wanted I could get enlightenment in seconds, not years. In fact I had real breakthrough not long after I started thinking about mind in exactly this way.

The thought was: When there is suffering it is because there is in mind already an experience which is pleasant and it needs to be experienced because the suffering is caused exactly by not experiencing it.
Experiencing it will make suffering disappear as it never really existed, just like this pleasure was all that existed all this time.
So it can even be said that whatever we at one time want, which we actually want, can be experienced, immediately. It already exists so there is nothing else to do than to experience it.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/11/20 9:58 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
I had a somewhat similar realization as Ni Nurta recently, which is that we're always setting up barriers for ourselves to jump over, and saying we won't let ourselves be happy until we make the jump. We defer our happiness until we get to some special point. Practice itself is often one such barrier, more often than I tended to think. The erecting of these walls begins with the obvious stuff, "once I get this shiny thing.... once I get that promotion.... once I measure up to my parents' expectations.... then I'm allowed to be happy." Buddha comes along and says "hey, all that stuff is impermanent, therefore stressful, therefore not good to pin your happiness on, ya dig?" 

So the narrative changes to, "once I understand the truth of the universe... once I get that path attainment... once I work really hard to drop this illusion of self.... then I'll let myself be happy." We (or at least I) rationalize this by unconsciously thinking, ah, well these things are not actually impermanent, they're exceptions. But the principle of what's going on for us (or at least me) is the same. I lose my in-the-moment happiness in favor of the mere idea of future happiness, if only I could get that next thing. It becomes almost about deserving it. I defer my present happiness just the same.

This is closely related to the practice of moment-to-moment mindfulness, which aims to stop us from defering our awareness too. However, if mindfulness becomes instrumental, ie a tool to achieve something else in the future, it too can be a way of defering happiness. "Once I get really good at noting...."

Even though this sounds unrelated on the surface, I feel it's related underneath. No barriers to leap = nothing to stop. Nothing to measure up to before you're allowed to be happy and awake. Just stop stopping yourself by pushing it into a conditional future.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/11/20 10:24 AM as a reply to Matthew.
Yes. I agree. But unfortunately that letting go also needs to happen somehow. 

We might as well enjoy the scenery of the detours and try not to take it too seriously.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/11/20 10:50 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Yeah, I totally agree. The letting go needs to happen somehow.

But that, I think, is the beauty of the path -- the genius of the Buddha. The path seems to lead to gradual letting go of "things" (wantings, views, attachments, etc.) to final letting go of everything (including the path itself and I think, including the idea of Nibbana itself) ... assuming I think, one is honest, and really wants it ...




 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/11/20 12:19 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Yes, I think so too. Even the extra detours seem to be part of the spiralling that on a larger scale leads to the right direction (that beyond the scales is no direction at all). 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/11/20 1:55 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Again, totally agreed!

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/11/20 6:13 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew:
I had a somewhat similar realization as Ni Nurta recently, which is that we're always setting up barriers for ourselves to jump over, and saying we won't let ourselves be happy until we make the jump. We defer our happiness until we get to some special point. Practice itself is often one such barrier, more often than I tended to think. The erecting of these walls begins with the obvious stuff, "once I get this shiny thing.... once I get that promotion.... once I measure up to my parents' expectations.... then I'm allowed to be happy." Buddha comes along and says "hey, all that stuff is impermanent, therefore stressful, therefore not good to pin your happiness on, ya dig?"
Actually my suggestion was that we do need to find ourselves in these special points to be happy rather than that we do not.

The contemporary solution that stems from thinking of eg. impermamence as usually described works because points we need to hit are not where solution normally presents itself and by letting go of trying to do what seems at first glance we should do there is a good chance to hit some points of real solutions, either by chance or because mind will notice there is something there it did not saw when it was fixed on getting through where it thought it was supposed to be. I experimented with this approach but it was still lacking in desired directness.

I developed better solution for myself. Treat both these apparent shining points which seems like solution and dukkha as source of information about real solutions. Like these were images projected from somewhere else and we were seeking projectors themselves. Usually those are found all around mind in strange places, even more than one place at the time. By design in this method projectors that need to be experienced are projectors of pleasure which not experienced directly cause dukkha and other images. Locations of projectors can be derived from their images and finding these locations treated as skill that can be developed and practiced.

This is much more direct solution and devoid of any concepts of impermanence... other tham maybe described as "there must be pleasure so better to hurry it up and find it before it is gone as it is impremament".

I am no Gautama and actually who can be sure what he actually meant. I would go with better solution whatever it is. It is also always good idea to go with one that leave absolutely nothing to be desired. Not because he had the right/best solutions or something but because we want the right/best solutions and should always strive to get the right/best solutions even if it is againts what we believe is being meant by him. We also cannot be sure if real meaning is what is being presented to us. It is not like there is Buddha to explain himself.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/11/20 8:40 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew:
I had a somewhat similar realization as Ni Nurta recently, which is that we're always setting up barriers for ourselves to jump over, and saying we won't let ourselves be happy until we make the jump. We defer our happiness until we get to some special point. Practice itself is often one such barrier, more often than I tended to think. The erecting of these walls begins with the obvious stuff, "once I get this shiny thing.... once I get that promotion.... once I measure up to my parents' expectations.... then I'm allowed to be happy." Buddha comes along and says "hey, all that stuff is impermanent, therefore stressful, therefore not good to pin your happiness on, ya dig?" 

So the narrative changes to, "once I understand the truth of the universe... once I get that path attainment... once I work really hard to drop this illusion of self.... then I'll let myself be happy." We (or at least I) rationalize this by unconsciously thinking, ah, well these things are not actually impermanent, they're exceptions. But the principle of what's going on for us (or at least me) is the same. I lose my in-the-moment happiness in favor of the mere idea of future happiness, if only I could get that next thing. It becomes almost about deserving it. I defer my present happiness just the same.

This is closely related to the practice of moment-to-moment mindfulness, which aims to stop us from defering our awareness too. However, if mindfulness becomes instrumental, ie a tool to achieve something else in the future, it too can be a way of defering happiness. "Once I get really good at noting...."

Even though this sounds unrelated on the surface, I feel it's related underneath. No barriers to leap = nothing to stop. Nothing to measure up to before you're allowed to be happy and awake. Just stop stopping yourself by pushing it into a conditional future.

Damn dude, I just had a mind-gasm. I completely understand what you mean. I need to really digest this. Thank you for sharing. I will take this to heart and try to implement it starting this second. 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/12/20 12:38 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:

Treat both these apparent shining points which seems like solution and dukkha as source of information about real solutions. Like these were images projected from somewhere else and we were seeking projectors themselves. Usually those are found all around mind in strange places, even more than one place at the time. By design in this method projectors that need to be experienced are projectors of pleasure which not experienced directly cause dukkha and other images. Locations of projectors can be derived from their images and finding these locations treated as skill that can be developed and practiced.




Ah, that’s the rainbow and lepracaun story from that other thread!

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/12/20 2:13 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Ah, that’s the rainbow and lepracaun story from that other thread!
Yes.

Leprechaun wants what it wants and it have nothing to do with giving you stupid challenges but he can still give you these challenges, not because he wants to protect the gold but because he knows no better. You can ponder at impermanence and see him and gold and rainbow as impermanent and just walk away from all of this and not be subjected to these challenges and associated risks of having gold and lead live happy and simple life in peace. This is a kind of solution, but perhaps not the one that satisfy me. On the other hand if with consciousness armed with buddha eyes you can sense where source of pleasure is for places in your mind at which you gaze you then can connect things which long to be connected and then conditions which produced visions apparent solutions (here, leprechaun somehow needing to bother people with challenges) and suffering (of both leprechaun being lonely and you seeing gold that you cannot have) simply vanish as there is no need or conditions for them anymore. Thus leprechaun gets laid which is what he wanted from the start and you get the gold which is what you wanted.

Practice/method I described usually requires finding multiple places in body/mind and experiencing them. When experience criteria are such that end result cannot be anything else than satisfaction it is inevitable to find them and once satisfaction is achieved it is achieved and that is that, nothing else to do, mind have nothing else to do than to enjoy.

This satisfaction and vajra-like meditative stabilization is not permanent as over time conditions do change but when you have method such as this and become master of it then it becomes pretty clear what role of consciousness actually have. It is not to control but to connect.

That said it might actually have nothing to do with the emptiness except maybe the fact that it completely removes the need for it and make you go straight to the point(s).

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/12/20 3:39 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
I like it. 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/12/20 1:24 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:

I developed better solution for myself. Treat both these apparent shining points which seems like solution and dukkha as source of information about real solutions. Like these were images projected from somewhere else and we were seeking projectors themselves. Usually those are found all around mind in strange places, even more than one place at the time. By design in this method projectors that need to be experienced are projectors of pleasure which not experienced directly cause dukkha and other images. Locations of projectors can be derived from their images and finding these locations treated as skill that can be developed and practiced.
Interesting. This actually sounds a bit more like Advaita Vedanta than Buddhism as far as I can tell. Which, if that's the method that works for you, awesome that you found it!

The basic idea of Advaita as far as my very very limited understanding goes is that the basis of reality is pure consciousness, called Brahman, which is real (sat), cognizant (chit), and blissful (ananda). One's "self" or Atman is made entirely out of this consciousness. However, it is veiled by illusion (maya), caused by the ignorance of taking appearances as real, which creates the illusion of separation between oneself and the world.

It sounds a little bit similar here, where the "projectors" are the pleasurable/blissful realities, representing Brahman. When not recognized or experienced, these realities are veiled in illusory or transient states and images, representing Maya, which causes suffering. The method is not to see the impermanent flow of the illusions, as in Buddhism, but of connection to a source "behind" them, as in Vedanta. Obviously your method and Advaita Vedanta are not identical, but in the sense that the thesis of both is "suffering is the result of an illusory projection on something that's actually real and inherently enjoyable," the model seems a bit similar, no?

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/12/20 4:59 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew:
Obviously your method and Advaita Vedanta are not identical, but the model seems a bit similar, no?

I read only one Advaita Vedanta text, Ramana Maharshi "Nān Yār?" but I liked it quite a lot emoticon

To me three charactericstics of all phenomena are:
- permament - nothing is lost, everything in the universe can be reexperienced any number of times and restored
- blissful - everything in the universe is driven by pleasure and for pleasure
- self - everything is one and the same being, one self, and any of the apsect of this self can manifest (be experienced) by any other aspect (place/time) including ability to experience "experience all experiences at all times", freely and without effort

Nibbana I can also experience whenever I want as some other states I consider to be enlightenment-grade.
The practice I described took heavily from practice of synesthesia that I did for years, more so than any other practice. The one I described earlier is however synthesis of different things and it was trying to actually describe what was working in them that led to its conception. In itself it is something else and with its associated enlightenment mind state for which my best name would be "reference experience" or maybe "temporal reference experience" but I like the first name better because second bring conceit to mind. Maybe "momentary reference experience" would fit more because conceit changes to river flow and then stops.

I am somewhat guilty because when writing about it I actually for the most part did different practice, the one which result in "experience of all experiences at all times" which itself is actually pretty much Advaita Vedanta derived, like finding reference experience of timeless self which is everything including even Nibbana but frankly because non-experience is like not existing when there is expeirience also overshadowed by it.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 1:30 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
So from a buddhist point of view, the trick is to be awake while you are crying, or laughing, or angry.  'Cos that's just the aggregates, right?  No need for passion obsession.  But no need for resistance obsession either.  Plenty seem to miss the second point.  

emoticon

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 1:40 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
This reminds me very much of a threedimensional model of awakening that I put together in the mindrace after a repeat fruition after SE. I still like the idea, but my way of presenting it at the time was very frantic in a way that yours isn't. emoticon I'll see if I can find it and if I want to link to it or rather just forget the whole thing. 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 1:53 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Okay it is a bit embarrassing, but I'll quote it. This obviously lacks a lot of sophistication. I want to emphasize that I never meant that we all should strive for some perfect balance in our register of emotions or behavior. I don't believe in that. Rather, the idea was that we need to let go of the illusion that there is a tension to begin with. I don't think I phrased that very clearly at all, but that's the point. So, here goes:


Imagine a cube. It has three dimensions. The three dimensions are impermanence, emptiness and suffering. All these dimensions are subject to tension between two extremes that only make sence if there is a reference point of some kind and thus polarity. The tension is a force of both expansion and contraction, because it is also polarized. 

The impermanence polarity is between the expansive extreme of infinite flow a shaken bottle of mineral water on the one hand and the contractive extreme of absolute stillness (stagnation/rigidity/coagulation) on the other hand. The balance point within polarity (which is of course a subjective construction and dependent on scale) is a balanced flow of motion. Nibbana is the non-polarity option with regard to all dimensions, and the ultimate balance point.
The emptiness polarity is between the expansive extreme of separation (dividing, making distinctions, analyzing into smaller and smaller parts) on the one hand, where everything is shattered, and the contractive extreme of unity where everything is merged on the other hand. There is an infinity paradox in both those extremes. The separation extreme paradox is explained pretty well in Zenon’s paradox. The unity extreme paradox is that if everything is one one side, there is nothing on the other side, and thus there can be no sides. The balance point is realizing that emptiness and suchness are pretty much the same thing, only dependent on whether it is looked upon from the inside or outside, as Culadasa puts it, which is in itself a paradox dependent on a reference point and thus polarity.

The suffering polarity is between the expansive extreme of craving/clinging on the one hand and the contractive extreme of having no will on the other hand, which in polarity tends to become indifference/apathy. The balance point within polarity is letting go but still caring. Compassion if you will (and with the realization that dependent origination means that there isn’t really a nondependent will because that would imply a separate self).

Fruitions are sort of a discharge that gives release. They tend to bring us closer to the center of the cube where all dimensions are balanced. In the fruition, the polarity between the expansive and the contractive side is gone. Thus there is no experience. When we come back to the polarized mode we also come back to experience. When we do so, we are relatively balanced. 

The different doors are approximating constructions having to do with what kind of discharge was most apparent to us. If the cube was an actual threedimensional map with real coordinations, it would be possible to pinpoint the exact location with regard to all three dimensions. That is not really the case since all these dimensions are paradoxical because they depend on referent points and scales, but we can still use the idea of it for the purpose of sensemaking. The six sides of the cube are only relative directions, but there is no endpoint. The sides are thus not the doors; they are just these constructed extremes. The eight corners of the cube do not really exist, because that would require that the sides were actually there and that there was finity, that is, something outside of the cube. There isn’t. Thus, the corners are not the doors. In fact, there are no doors. Doors imply that there is something outside. There is nothing but dependent origination. But (once again) for the purpose of sensemaking, it is useful to understand it as if there could be intersections resulting in a center and different sides and corners. The closer one gets to a side or a corner of the cube, the ”bigger” release results from the discharge. ”Big” refers to the noticability of the change when coming back and thus getting centered in the cube. I would assume that it is at least theoretically possible to get to fruition from any ”coordinate” within this cube. They are all have a relative position with regard to all of the three dimensions, although since there are no endpoints they are more like angles than actual coordinations (I have very little of Maths in my baggage so I’m probably using the words wrong here; please, bear with me).

I don’t have enough empirical data to say anything about what ”coordinates” are most common, but I would guess that certain clusters are more common than others, or at least most commonly distinguished and reported. It makes sense to assume that it is common for one dimension to be more dominant than the others, hence the notion of three doors. With enough clarity, it makes sense that it would also be possible to distinguish a secondary aspect of there is one, hence the notion of the six different doors. But in reality there should be an infinite number of doors since there is no endpoint in any direction.

For sensemaking purpose, the six door versions relate to the cube in the following way: 
- The impermanence door with no self as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between flow and stillness and has a flavor of either unity (merging) or separation (dividing). Cf the wave-particle model. Everything as continuous flow or everything as vanishings.
- The impermanence door with suffering as secondary aspect deals primarily between the tension between flow (change) and stillness and has a flavor of either caring or letting go. Caring enough to taking or welcoming initiatives or being able to let go of craving or clinging.
- The no self door with impermanence as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between separation and unity and has a flavor of or stillness.
- The no self door with suffering as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between separation and unity and has a flavor of either caring or letting go. 
- The suffering door with impermanence as secondary aspect deals primarily with pain caused by either too much attraction or too much aversion or apathy and has a flavor of flow (opening up something that had stagnated) or stillness (calming down something that is too speeded).
- The suffering door with no self as secondary aspect deals primarily with pain caused by either too much attraction or too much aversion or by apathy and has a flavor of unity (making connections, belonging) or separation (boundaries, integrity).

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 2:25 AM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Kalle Spolander:
Hi everyone. 

So I've meditated fairly seriously for about 2 years I've had a couple of insights before. 

first real insight was when I was in the dark night and out of the blue just realized "It's only a mind-state" and a massive relief just washed over me. 

Second big insight was when i was listening to Loch Kelly and it just clicked. If thoughts come by themselves without my say so then there is no self and I can just complete let go and just float in the river without effort. 

third insight happened last Monday. I've been following Sam Harris and Douglas Harding's advice about turning attention on itself and look for what's looking. And I did it and somehow it clicked. It was empty. Consciousness was empty. I looked in every direction and all I saw was more emptiness. I had no history or name or gender. I was nothing and the world was nothing and everything just was and everything has just always been and it all happens by itself. This insane bliss just washed over me and I just thought "How could I go my entire life without seeing this??!!"

Now I can see emptiness on command with a bit of concentration and I can see the selflessness and all that and it's almost getting to be a bit predictable. Like yeah yeah yeah, it's all empty and great. I get it. What's next? I know that this insight hasn't stabilized and I know that whatever this is isn't it. 

What is this that I'm going through? Does anyone have any advice for helpful strategies at this stage? What can I expect next?

Thanks everyone. I sincerely appreciate all of you! This journey is lonely. I feel a bit like a different species right now. It's impossible to talk about this with anyone I know. 

aloha kalie,

   Practicing mindfulness and selflessness leads to insight. Continued practice leads to continued insight. The selfish, grasping mind clings to the arising insights and cherishes them until they become stale, even rotten and stinking, if they are not let go of and replaced with newer, more timely ones.

     All this glittering insight is not what it seems. The sense of self-gratification and reward is a temptation and a distraction, and the very thing we seek becomes an obstacle to further progress. At every level our determination to walk the path is undermined by the attractions of ego gratification. We cling to every contrivance for security. When insight is overvalued, every insight is held tightly and milked for all it is worth until only a husk is left.

   The wheel of samsara turns. Prepare yourself.

terry




from "The Way of Chuang Tzu" trans merton:



THE TOWER OF THE SPIRIT

The spirit has an impregnable tower
Which no danger can disturb
As long as the tower is guarded
By the invisible Protector
Who acts unconsciously, and whose actions
Go astray when they become deliberate,
Reflexive, and intentional.
The unconsciousness
And entire sincerity of Tao
Are disturbed by any effort
At self-conscious demonstration.
All such demonstrations
Are lies.
When one displays himself In this ambiguous way
The world outside storms in
And imprisons him.
He is no longer protected
By the sincerity of Tao.
Each new act
Is a new failure.
 If his acts are done in public,
In broad daylight,
He will be punished by men.
If they are done in private
And in secret,
They will be punished
By spirits.
Let each one understand
The meaning of sincerity
And guard against display!
He will be at peace
With men and spirits
And will act rightly, unseen, In his own solitude,
In the tower of his spirit.
[xxiii. 8.]

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 2:27 AM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Kalle Spolander:
There has to be more. Maybe not insights but more stability. I don't live in this insight. I can only stay there for a little while and then I get caught up in my stories and identify with my thoughts. I feel like I've ionly glimpsed the truth and I have an intuition that I still have a long way to go. 

that is real insight you can live with...
stay humble...

beginner's mind is the way...

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 2:41 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Kalle Spolander:
Now I can see emptiness on command with a bit of concentration and I can see he selflessness and all that and it's almost getting to be a bit predictable. Like yeah yeah yeah, it's all empty and great. I get it. What's next? I know that this insight hasn't stabilized and I know that whatever this is isn't it. 

What is this that I'm going through? Does anyone have any advice for helpful strategies at this stage? What can I expect next?

Concept of "emptiness" is oversimplification invented to not flood people with nitty gritty details which would be too much for them at first. People always had short attention spans and you also need to package your product in nice package in order to sell it. Just look at us, inside we are nothing like what we appear from outside.

The very fact of being able to experience this emptiness means that you are somewhat inside but this is not yet the level where you really work with structures that make up your mind or can really solve issues directly.

The process that made whatever you went through to get to this "emptiness" that you mention is creating in your mind layers something which is basically the same thing as the one you went through. This process is not even something you need to stop but it is something to be aware of and you need to act accordingly. After all you already proven to have the skill to go through, right?

What next? Check some mind stuffy stuff, try something out, poke here and there... you know, insight meditation, get insight through investigation emoticon


TELL ALL THE TRUTH BUT TELL IT SLANT
BY EMILY DICKINSON

Tell all the truth but tell it slant —
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth's superb surprise
As Lightning to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind —

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 2:58 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Yeah, I totally agree. The letting go needs to happen somehow.

But that, I think, is the beauty of the path -- the genius of the Buddha. The path seems to lead to gradual letting go of "things" (wantings, views, attachments, etc.) to final letting go of everything (including the path itself and I think, including the idea of Nibbana itself) ... assuming I think, one is honest, and really wants it ...




 

 
  If "one is honest and really wants it" one is likely to attain only the image of one's desire, whatever you may call it, even "emptiness."

   If one is totally frustrated and utterly spent, then one may get a glimpse. If the glimpse is not allowed to reinflate the ego - a rare chance - a window may be opened through which blessings flow in and gratitude flows out.

terry



from "the essential rumi," trans barks:


The Tent

Outside, the freezing desert night.
This other night inside grows warm, kindling.
Let the landscape be covered with thorny crust.
We have a soft garden in here.
The continents blasted,
cities and little towns, everything
become a scorched, blackened ball.
The news we hear is full of grief for that future,
but the real news inside here
is there’s no news at all.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 3:21 AM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew:
Ni Nurta:

I developed better solution for myself. Treat both these apparent shining points which seems like solution and dukkha as source of information about real solutions. Like these were images projected from somewhere else and we were seeking projectors themselves. Usually those are found all around mind in strange places, even more than one place at the time. By design in this method projectors that need to be experienced are projectors of pleasure which not experienced directly cause dukkha and other images. Locations of projectors can be derived from their images and finding these locations treated as skill that can be developed and practiced.
Interesting. This actually sounds a bit more like Advaita Vedanta than Buddhism as far as I can tell. Which, if that's the method that works for you, awesome that you found it!

The basic idea of Advaita as far as my very very limited understanding goes is that the basis of reality is pure consciousness, called Brahman, which is real (sat), cognizant (chit), and blissful (ananda). One's "self" or Atman is made entirely out of this consciousness. However, it is veiled by illusion (maya), caused by the ignorance of taking appearances as real, which creates the illusion of separation between oneself and the world.

It sounds a little bit similar here, where the "projectors" are the pleasurable/blissful realities, representing Brahman. When not recognized or experienced, these realities are veiled in illusory or transient states and images, representing Maya, which causes suffering. The method is not to see the impermanent flow of the illusions, as in Buddhism, but of connection to a source "behind" them, as in Vedanta. Obviously your method and Advaita Vedanta are not identical, but in the sense that the thesis of both is "suffering is the result of an illusory projection on something that's actually real and inherently enjoyable," the model seems a bit similar, no?

  Advaita means "not-two" and is specifically a nondualistic philosophy/movement.  Consciousness is dualistic, requiring objects. This is the paradox of cognizing emptiness: if emptiness is cognizable, it is not emptiness. Emptiness is beyond consciousness. Empty.

   Consciousness, as rumi says, is less than road dust. You will never be conscious of god, nirvana, emptiness, the mind itself, or consciousness itself. The practice of self inquiry (vedanta) is designed to present the inquirer with the futility of cognizing the cognizer. "Who can know the knower" says the upanishad. "Know thyself" said the man who claimed he knew nothing at all.
   
   Atman and brahman are not two; many vedantists claim their views are nondualistic also, and are the source of advaita.

terry

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 3:28 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Matthew:
Obviously your method and Advaita Vedanta are not identical, but the model seems a bit similar, no?

I read only one Advaita Vedanta text, Ramana Maharshi "Nān Yār?" but I liked it quite a lot emoticon

To me three charactericstics of all phenomena are:
- permament - nothing is lost, everything in the universe can be reexperienced any number of times and restored
- blissful - everything in the universe is driven by pleasure and for pleasure
- self - everything is one and the same being, one self, and any of the apsect of this self can manifest (be experienced) by any other aspect (place/time) including ability to experience "experience all experiences at all times", freely and without effort

Nibbana I can also experience whenever I want as some other states I consider to be enlightenment-grade.


  This is, of course, the exact opposite of what the buddha preached as the three marks of existence (phenomena). By ni's deliberate contrivance no doubt.

   A perversion of the dharma. Like a black mass.

terry

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 4:02 AM as a reply to terry.
The dharma is already perverted when put into words. Emptiness is empty.

RE: Insight into emptiness so
Answer
3/13/20 4:19 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
The dharma is already perverted when put into words. Emptiness is empty.

He he.  Keep going!

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 8:49 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
This is, of course, the exact opposite of what the buddha preached as the three marks of existence (phenomena). By ni's deliberate contrivance no doubt.
A perversion of the dharma. Like a black mass.

Dharma have wider scope than what Gautama Buddha was teaching... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_religions

Buddha merely pointed that once we relinquish attachment to things mind get rest and things naturally fall in place.
It is however merely different way of achieving the same end result which is liberation from dukkha, albeit with different after-taste to it.
One should according to Buddha general wisdom and his recommendation not really get attached to the specific after-taste of enlightenment... right? emoticon

If what I say is dharma is not dharma then let Shiva himself come and strike me down!

Like a black mass.

Like black hole?
Thanks, that is the nicest thing anyone told me today emoticon

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 3:46 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
The dharma is already perverted when put into words. Emptiness is empty.

I guess everything the buddha said is perverted, then. Thus I have heard only perversion. Yes, that is the message you are resonating with.

I'm sorry...

RE: Insight into emptiness so
Answer
3/13/20 3:48 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
curious:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
The dharma is already perverted when put into words. Emptiness is empty.

He he.  Keep going!


   I really liked the lava gif. It keeps popping up in my meditation as a cooling image.

t

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 3:52 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
terry:
This is, of course, the exact opposite of what the buddha preached as the three marks of existence (phenomena). By ni's deliberate contrivance no doubt.
A perversion of the dharma. Like a black mass.

Dharma have wider scope than what Gautama Buddha was teaching... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_religions

Buddha merely pointed that once we relinquish attachment to things mind get rest and things naturally fall in place.
It is however merely different way of achieving the same end result which is liberation from dukkha, albeit with different after-taste to it.
One should according to Buddha general wisdom and his recommendation not really get attached to the specific after-taste of enlightenment... right? emoticon

If what I say is dharma is not dharma then let Shiva himself come and strike me down!

Like a black mass.

Like black hole?
Thanks, that is the nicest thing anyone told me today emoticon


   You have been stricken down, you just haven't realized it yet.

   Go with god, my friend.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/13/20 4:43 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
The dharma is already perverted when put into words. Emptiness is empty.

I guess everything the buddha said is perverted, then. Thus I have heard only perversion. Yes, that is the message you are resonating with.

I'm sorry...
Perversion is empty. emoticon

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/14/20 6:44 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
The dharma is already perverted when put into words. Emptiness is empty.

I guess everything the buddha said is perverted, then. Thus I have heard only perversion. Yes, that is the message you are resonating with.

I'm sorry...
Perversion is empty. emoticon

    All perversions are conditioned.   emoticon

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/14/20 7:01 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Imagine a cube. It has three dimensions...

I like this a lot emoticon

The eight corners of the cube do not really exist, because that would require that the sides were actually there and that there was finity, that is, something outside of the cube. There isn’t.
Actually I would argue that there is something outside.
It need not to be dependent on direction though and be the same in any direction.

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/14/20 7:12 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
You have been stricken down, you just haven't realized it yet.
Go with god, my friend.

I had my conversation with God about suffering and the solution to it.
Actually it seems all gods agree on the basics emoticon

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
3/16/20 7:35 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
terry:
You have been stricken down, you just haven't realized it yet.
Go with god, my friend.

I had my conversation with God about suffering and the solution to it.
Actually it seems all gods agree on the basics emoticon


   That's funny, I don't remember talking to you about suffering and the solution to it.

God

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
4/8/20 2:03 PM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Kalle Spolander:
Matthew:
I had a somewhat similar realization as Ni Nurta recently, which is that we're always setting up barriers for ourselves to jump over, and saying we won't let ourselves be happy until we make the jump. We defer our happiness until we get to some special point. Practice itself is often one such barrier, more often than I tended to think. The erecting of these walls begins with the obvious stuff, "once I get this shiny thing.... once I get that promotion.... once I measure up to my parents' expectations.... then I'm allowed to be happy." Buddha comes along and says "hey, all that stuff is impermanent, therefore stressful, therefore not good to pin your happiness on, ya dig?" 

So the narrative changes to, "once I understand the truth of the universe... once I get that path attainment... once I work really hard to drop this illusion of self.... then I'll let myself be happy." We (or at least I) rationalize this by unconsciously thinking, ah, well these things are not actually impermanent, they're exceptions. But the principle of what's going on for us (or at least me) is the same. I lose my in-the-moment happiness in favor of the mere idea of future happiness, if only I could get that next thing. It becomes almost about deserving it. I defer my present happiness just the same.

This is closely related to the practice of moment-to-moment mindfulness, which aims to stop us from defering our awareness too. However, if mindfulness becomes instrumental, ie a tool to achieve something else in the future, it too can be a way of defering happiness. "Once I get really good at noting...."

Even though this sounds unrelated on the surface, I feel it's related underneath. No barriers to leap = nothing to stop. Nothing to measure up to before you're allowed to be happy and awake. Just stop stopping yourself by pushing it into a conditional future.

Damn dude, I just had a mind-gasm. I completely understand what you mean. I need to really digest this. Thank you for sharing. I will take this to heart and try to implement it starting this second. 


emoticon From an insight into emptiness to a mind-gasm, heart rejuvenation, and intensified desire for liberation. Nice work, kids. 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
4/8/20 2:17 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Yeah and I've had ever bigger insights since. Basically I'm probably going to lose my job and all my belongings in this crisis. Talk about Dukkha. But a few weeks ago in deep meditation everything clicked again. Everything is just the way it is and needs to be. It can't be any other way than this. Enlightenment isn't that thing over there. It's this thing right here. This anxiety, this worry, this back pain. This sensation and this thought right here in this moment. Everything is literally exactly like it is and not more. That's the whole point. Corona too. It's just the universe unfolding. 
Once I had this insight I felt this massive relief and cried tears of joy. 
A few days later I was bickering with my wife and irritable all day. It is very difficult to let go of the attachment of deep insight. 
This spiritual journey is long and crooked and takes you places you didn't even know were possible. 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
4/8/20 3:28 PM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Kalle Spolander:
Yeah and I've had ever bigger insights since. Basically I'm probably going to lose my job and all my belongings in this crisis. Talk about Dukkha. But a few weeks ago in deep meditation everything clicked again. Everything is just the way it is and needs to be. It can't be any other way than this. Enlightenment isn't that thing over there. It's this thing right here. This anxiety, this worry, this back pain. This sensation and this thought right here in this moment. Everything is literally exactly like it is and not more. That's the whole point. Corona too. It's just the universe unfolding. 
Once I had this insight I felt this massive relief and cried tears of joy. 
A few days later I was bickering with my wife and irritable all day. It is very difficult to let go of the attachment of deep insight. 
This spiritual journey is long and crooked and takes you places you didn't even know were possible. 
Same here, lots of tears and laughter when I've Got The Joke ... then all went to shit and I feel suffering 24/7 again. The Joke went Puff on me emoticon Im now crawling the initial stages yet again with lots of neck stiffness, back pain, throat pain, migrane like headackes and general agitation with it all. Im on the ride again. See you on the Joke Side some time down the path.
Good on you. Now only try not to get gored by a cow protecting her calf emoticon 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
4/8/20 7:12 PM as a reply to terry.
It's literally crazy how much I identify with what you say. It's like you're reading my mind. 

I guess this is as enlightened I'll be. I don't think there are any further attainments as far as enlightenment goes. I'll probably swing wildly between getting it, and then thinking that I somehow must figure something out to make this not this, for the rest of my life. 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
4/9/20 2:10 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
 

Same here, lots of tears and laughter when I've Got The Joke ... then all went to shit and I feel suffering 24/7 again. The Joke went Puff on me

emoticon

Im now crawling the initial stages yet again with lots of neck stiffness, back pain, throat pain, migrane like headackes and general agitation with it all. Im on the ride again. See you on the Joke Side some time down the path.


Yeah, the Joke. I went back and forth a bit recently with agnostic, who said that the joke was absurd and cruel. Of course, he may have just been yanking my chain (emoticon) (yes, Papa Che, certain assholes have been known to yank my chain, just for the piss of it (emoticon) (are you proud of your apprentice smiley user? skillful means, mate, the learning curve is on). I said to him, absurd is easy for me, i started with Camus, and one must imagine Sisyphus happy. But cruel is tough. The nanas of the Knowledges of Suffering can seem cruel as hell, pretty literally. But there is that moment when, as John of the Cross says in his "Living Flame of Love" poem, addressing the divine that has scorched his ass so completely, "Now that You are not oppressive . . ." Those are the moments of what I think of as getting the Joke, and it's not cruel, if anything it's as advertised, all mercy and love, and one moment of that is worth it all, and worth nothing, and let the hills rejoice. And it does seem to all go to shit again in short order, in round and round she goes fashion. That is the well of compassion, com-passio, suffering with. So us miserable bastards can let the dark night turn the Joke toward total black again and again, suffering with each other's intermittently inadequate senses of humor until all sentient beings get the Joke. Maybe I'll be the last one to get that belly laugh all the way. But those glimpses of laughter, those perfect chuckles . . . 

RE: Insight into emptiness
Answer
4/9/20 2:13 AM as a reply to Kalle Spolander.
Kalle Spolander:
It's literally crazy how much I identify with what you say. It's like you're reading my mind. 

I guess this is as enlightened I'll be. I don't think there are any further attainments as far as enlightenment goes. I'll probably swing wildly between getting it, and then thinking that I somehow must figure something out to make this not this, for the rest of my life. 


Maybe it's just as enlightened as you can bear, at any given point. I mean, would you really want to turn the enlightenment-cooking process up even one more degree, at this moment? Jesus Fucking Christ, you're jobless during a global catastrophe. How much more reality can any of us stand?