If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 199 Join Date: 11/4/18 Recent Posts
What is awakening/enlightenment? It is the destruction of the false belief that you are a thinking, experiencing, doing person. When this happens, you live in your true nature, which is inexpressible, perfect, stainless, and unchanging. Actually, these last couple of sentences are not quite accurate, since the real truth is beyond words, but they are accurate enough.

If you have a strong, unconflicted desire to awaken, the steps are very simple.

Either self-inquire or ignore all thought.

Self-inquiry means trying to locate the self-evident knowledge that you have that "I am," (that is, the source of awareness) and not accepting any particular sensation, thought, or feeling as it -- because the "I am" is aware of all these things. Simply focus on trying to find the real I am at all times. How do you do that? Every time you think the word "I," a bell chimes somewhere. Follow, as best you can, the sound of that bell. If you think you've found it, you haven't. Keep looking until there is clarity. If you have to ask whether there is clarity, there isn't.

Ignoring all thought (also known as surrender) is exactly what it sounds like. It's the simplest way of all. It's not about stopping or fighting thought. It's about moving your attention away from it. The TV could be on, but you could refuse to pay attention. Refuse to pay attention to thought. All thought. Repeat till clarity.

Either self-inquire or ignore all thought every waking moment as you go about life. If you "lose it," come back to it. Keep doing that until there is clarity. If you do it intensely, clarity will come. Again, if you have to ask whether there is clarity, there isn't.

That is all it takes to awaken.

Now if you do not have an unconflicted desire to awaken (this will become apparent if you have low motivation to do the above practices, or you keep getting seriously distracted by various other things), you can strengthen it by getting an intellectual framework around the awakening process (through asking questions of a teacher, reading books and scriptures, etc.) and by dealing with your emotional baggage (this comes to being more honest about what you want -- psychoanalytic psychotherapy and artistic expression of your feelings can be very helpful).

If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Why oh why are such simple things so hard to do?

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nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Chris Marti:
Why oh why are such simple things so hard to do?

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It's not hard at all. In fact, it's completely effortless. The very thought "it's hard" is the heart of ignorance... so feel free to ignore it as a total lie. emoticon
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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 The very thought "it's hard" is the heart of ignorance... so feel free to ignore it as a total lie. emoticon

Thanks for giving me permission  emoticon
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Chris Marti:
 The very thought "it's hard" is the heart of ignorance... so feel free to ignore it as a total lie. emoticon

Thanks for giving me permission  emoticon


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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Sure. I agree. It would be so simple if there were no Impermanence emoticon That Anicca is a mother...er not willing to spare anything! Not even Awakening. emoticon 

Im off to sleep now. When asleep "I" feel no suffering. Ah Nirvana here I come. 

Good night folks. 
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Milo, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Papa Che Dusko:
Sure. I agree. It would be so simple if there were no Impermanence emoticon That Anicca is a mother...er not willing to spare anything! Not even Awakening. emoticon 

Im off to sleep now. When asleep "I" feel no suffering. Ah Nirvana here I come. 

Good night folks. 

Indeed.

Anicca doesn't even spare nothing, so have both a good night and a happy waking : )
neko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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nintheye:
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Are you awakened/enlightened, by your own definitions and standards?

If yes, what makes you think so, and what are these standards and definitions?

If no, why would people take your advice on how to do it?
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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neko:
nintheye:
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Are you awakened/enlightened, by your own definitions and standards?

If yes, what makes you think so, and what are these standards and definitions?

If no, why would people take your advice on how to do it?
Yes, but that answer must be taken in context, since awakening is precisely the seeing through of any 'person' who could be enlightened. It is a paradoxical 'non-achievement achievement' whose real nature cannot be captured in language.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Yes, but that answer must be taken in context, since awakening is precisely the seeing through of any 'person' who could be enlightened. It is a paradoxical 'non-achievement achievement' whose real nature cannot be captured in language.

Can you give it a try?
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Chris Marti:
Yes, but that answer must be taken in context, since awakening is precisely the seeing through of any 'person' who could be enlightened. It is a paradoxical 'non-achievement achievement' whose real nature cannot be captured in language.

Can you give it a try?
I did, in the first paragraph of my original post. Is there something you in particular are struggling with? If so, it would be better to start there, since abstract discussions disconnected to one's particular struggles as a seeker tend to be misleading.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Is there something you in particular are struggling with?

I struggle to understand folks who are hell bent on telling others how simple and easy it is to wake up. It tends to make them feel inferior. So many people here are putting in so much time into their practice, and I imagine this has the stink of an insult to them. Maybe that's the motivation?
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 199 Join Date: 11/4/18 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Is there something you in particular are struggling with?

I struggle to understand folks who are hell bent on telling others how simple and easy it is to wake up. It tends to make them feel inferior. So many people here are putting in so much time into their practice, and I imagine this has the stink of an insult to them. Maybe that's the motivation?
Well, first off, simple is not the same as easy. Second, I have my opinions about what works and I am sharing them, because I believe them to be true. If someone feels inferior when they hear that, that says something about them, not about me.

I think people who want to make enlightenment out to be long and complicated and hard and many-staged and with hundreds of separate insights in complicated sequences are doing themselves and anyone else they talk to a disservice.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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I think people who want to make enlightenment out to be long and complicated and hard and many-staged and with hundreds of separate insights in complicated sequences are doing themselves and anyone else they talk to a disservice.

I think if you want folks to take you seriously you should explain your credentials. Do you teach? Where? What? What did/do you practice? Do you claim to be awake? Why?
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Chris Marti:
I think people who want to make enlightenment out to be long and complicated and hard and many-staged and with hundreds of separate insights in complicated sequences are doing themselves and anyone else they talk to a disservice.

I think if you want folks to take you seriously you should explain your credentials. Do you teach? Where? What? What did/do you practice? Do you claim to be awake? Why?
The idea of credentials in this field is largely nonsense. Most people with so-called credentials have no idea what they're talking about. That said, I practiced 20 years before so-called attainment. I teach people freelance in a contemporary advaita vedanta tradition.

Whether people take me seriously or not is not something that I really have a lot of desire to control at this point. If my words resonate with someone, those are the credentials that matter.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Well, thanks - that's more information than we had a few minutes ago.
neko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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nintheye:
I practiced 20 years before so-called attainment.

Not exactly what I would call "dead simple", then.
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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neko:
nintheye:
I practiced 20 years before so-called attainment.

Not exactly what I would call "dead simple", then.

Well I didn't have things broken down for me as simply as I've broken them down here. Though anyhow simple is not the same as easy, regardless. 
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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nintheye:
neko:
nintheye:
I practiced 20 years before so-called attainment.

Not exactly what I would call "dead simple", then.

Well I didn't have things broken down for me as simply as I've broken them down here. Though anyhow simple is not the same as easy, regardless. 

   This is like batting practice for you, huh. Looking for the high hard one.

   Chief nocahoma.

t
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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nintheye:
Well, first off, simple is not the same as easy.

[...]

I practiced 20 years before so-called attainment.

It is very bizarre how many people awaken and then try to teach something completely different than what they went through, based on the assumption that all the actual work they did could just be skipped over. I'm not picking on you specifically nintheye. It seems to happen more often than not.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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shargrol:
nintheye:
Well, first off, simple is not the same as easy.

[...]

I practiced 20 years before so-called attainment.

It is very bizarre how many people awaken and then try to teach something completely different than what they went through, based on the assumption that all the actual work they did could just be skipped over. I'm not picking on you specifically nintheye. It seems to happen more often than not.
Well I am actually not preaching anything other than what I practiced... as I start out by saying, the simple methods are available if one has a relatively strong and unconflicted desire for the Truth. If one doesn't, I mention that there is other work to be done -- either in terms of getting a better intellectual grip on the search, or else in dealing with emotional baggage. These three components certainly comprised my own journey. I gave the 'spear tip' spiritual practices first because some people might be ready to simply jump into them. 
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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If one doesn't, I mention that there is other work to be done -- either in terms of getting a better intellectual grip on the search, or else in dealing with emotional baggage. These three components certainly comprised my own journey. I gave the 'spear tip' spiritual practices first because some people might be ready to simply jump into them. 

Hmmm... maybe that's what all the steps and insights in Buddhism do. 
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Chris Marti:
If one doesn't, I mention that there is other work to be done -- either in terms of getting a better intellectual grip on the search, or else in dealing with emotional baggage. These three components certainly comprised my own journey. I gave the 'spear tip' spiritual practices first because some people might be ready to simply jump into them. 

Hmmm... maybe that's what all the steps and insights in Buddhism do. 
Maybe, but it gives the misleading impression of a ladder, and is quite unnecessarily confusing. In fact, various purificatory practices are necessary for some people and not others. There is no ladder or set sequence, only specific personal issues that people have to solve themselves.

Anyhow, so many are capable of immediately practicing, or at least attempting, the highest spiritual practices now, and those practices have purificatory effects. And yet they are usually hidden away in so much mumbo-jumbo...
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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... it gives the misleading impression of a ladder, and is quite unnecessarily confusing. In fact, various purificatory practices are necessary for some people and not others. There is no ladder or set sequence, only specific personal issues that people have to solve themselves.

Opinion noted.

Tim Farrington, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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nintheye:
shargrol:
nintheye:
Well, first off, simple is not the same as easy.

[...]

I practiced 20 years before so-called attainment.

It is very bizarre how many people awaken and then try to teach something completely different than what they went through, based on the assumption that all the actual work they did could just be skipped over. I'm not picking on you specifically nintheye. It seems to happen more often than not.
Well I am actually not preaching anything other than what I practiced... as I start out by saying, the simple methods are available if one has a relatively strong and unconflicted desire for the Truth. If one doesn't, I mention that there is other work to be done -- either in terms of getting a better intellectual grip on the search, or else in dealing with emotional baggage. These three components certainly comprised my own journey. I gave the 'spear tip' spiritual practices first because some people might be ready to simply jump into them. 

So as I understand what you're saying, awakening is dead simple with one of two clear, straightforward techniques, and it is not unrealistic to expect that takes twenty years of practice, more or less, to realize it.
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Tim Farrington:
nintheye:
shargrol:
nintheye:
Well, first off, simple is not the same as easy.

[...]

I practiced 20 years before so-called attainment.

It is very bizarre how many people awaken and then try to teach something completely different than what they went through, based on the assumption that all the actual work they did could just be skipped over. I'm not picking on you specifically nintheye. It seems to happen more often than not.
Well I am actually not preaching anything other than what I practiced... as I start out by saying, the simple methods are available if one has a relatively strong and unconflicted desire for the Truth. If one doesn't, I mention that there is other work to be done -- either in terms of getting a better intellectual grip on the search, or else in dealing with emotional baggage. These three components certainly comprised my own journey. I gave the 'spear tip' spiritual practices first because some people might be ready to simply jump into them. 

So as I understand what you're saying, awakening is dead simple with one of two clear, straightforward techniques, and it is not unrealistic to expect that takes twenty years of practice, more or less, to realize it.
Correct. It could conceivably be much shorter or longer, too, of course, depending on the individual and other psychological factors. And thinking of it as a process with a result is also in an important sense false. Awakening is here and now, always, and, paradoxically, that kind of view of the practice will shorten the length of time it takes to 'get there.' emoticon
Tim Farrington, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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nintheye:
Tim Farrington:
nintheye:
shargrol:
nintheye:
Well, first off, simple is not the same as easy.

[...]

I practiced 20 years before so-called attainment.

It is very bizarre how many people awaken and then try to teach something completely different than what they went through, based on the assumption that all the actual work they did could just be skipped over. I'm not picking on you specifically nintheye. It seems to happen more often than not.
Well I am actually not preaching anything other than what I practiced... as I start out by saying, the simple methods are available if one has a relatively strong and unconflicted desire for the Truth. If one doesn't, I mention that there is other work to be done -- either in terms of getting a better intellectual grip on the search, or else in dealing with emotional baggage. These three components certainly comprised my own journey. I gave the 'spear tip' spiritual practices first because some people might be ready to simply jump into them. 

So as I understand what you're saying, awakening is dead simple with one of two clear, straightforward techniques, and it is not unrealistic to expect that takes twenty years of practice, more or less, to realize it.
Correct. It could conceivably be much shorter or longer, too, of course, depending on the individual and other psychological factors. And thinking of it as a process with a result is also in an important sense false. Awakening is here and now, always, and, paradoxically, that kind of view of the practice will shorten the length of time it takes to 'get there.' emoticon

Amen. Hey, by the way, I noticed a Party Sutra (in the literal sense of sutra meaning "thread" and the semi-literal sense of us all being party to What It Is Even If We Ain't Etc.): https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/19366121 , where you might have some fun, and possibly even end up as the guest of honor, since you "speak advaita" as more of a first language while so many of us here have various accents at best . . .
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Tim Farrington:
nintheye:
Tim Farrington:
nintheye:
shargrol:
nintheye:
Well, first off, simple is not the same as easy.

[...]

I practiced 20 years before so-called attainment.

It is very bizarre how many people awaken and then try to teach something completely different than what they went through, based on the assumption that all the actual work they did could just be skipped over. I'm not picking on you specifically nintheye. It seems to happen more often than not.
Well I am actually not preaching anything other than what I practiced... as I start out by saying, the simple methods are available if one has a relatively strong and unconflicted desire for the Truth. If one doesn't, I mention that there is other work to be done -- either in terms of getting a better intellectual grip on the search, or else in dealing with emotional baggage. These three components certainly comprised my own journey. I gave the 'spear tip' spiritual practices first because some people might be ready to simply jump into them. 

So as I understand what you're saying, awakening is dead simple with one of two clear, straightforward techniques, and it is not unrealistic to expect that takes twenty years of practice, more or less, to realize it.
Correct. It could conceivably be much shorter or longer, too, of course, depending on the individual and other psychological factors. And thinking of it as a process with a result is also in an important sense false. Awakening is here and now, always, and, paradoxically, that kind of view of the practice will shorten the length of time it takes to 'get there.' emoticon

Amen. Hey, by the way, I noticed a Party Sutra (in the literal sense of sutra meaning "thread" and the semi-literal sense of us all being party to What It Is Even If We Ain't Etc.): https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/19366121 , where you might have some fun, and possibly even end up as the guest of honor, since you "speak advaita" as more of a first language while so many of us here have various accents at best . . .
Thanks -- I saw that thread a while ago, but didn’t feel compelled to say much. Now I've posted a reply to terry about some particular point, so thanks for bringing it to my attention again emoticon.
Tim Farrington, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Hi ninth, at the risk of being annoying as fuck (a technical dharma term of great utility), and in the spirit of my last heads up, which you took so beautifully in the proper spirit, i wanted to say that i think Stirling Campbell on the Advaita and Buddism thread has a post that meets your excellent criteria for engagement, as far as I understand them. He is asking genuine questions that beg for an informed Advaita response, as I read it, and he's as aware of the thin ice of doing so here on DhO as you are. But if there's a gold standard, his post is it, three excellent questions for openers, no agenda but the possibility of satsang.

Namaste, tim
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Tim Farrington:
Hi ninth, at the risk of being annoying as fuck (a technical dharma term of great utility), and in the spirit of my last heads up, which you took so beautifully in the proper spirit, i wanted to say that i think Stirling Campbell on the Advaita and Buddism thread has a post that meets your excellent criteria for engagement, as far as I understand them. He is asking genuine questions that beg for an informed Advaita response, as I read it, and he's as aware of the thin ice of doing so here on DhO as you are. But if there's a gold standard, his post is it, three excellent questions for openers, no agenda but the possibility of satsang.

Namaste, tim
Thanks Tim! Will check it out.
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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nintheye:
Chris Marti:
Is there something you in particular are struggling with?

I struggle to understand folks who are hell bent on telling others how simple and easy it is to wake up. It tends to make them feel inferior. So many people here are putting in so much time into their practice, and I imagine this has the stink of an insult to them. Maybe that's the motivation?
Well, first off, simple is not the same as easy. Second, I have my opinions about what works and I am sharing them, because I believe them to be true. If someone feels inferior when they hear that, that says something about them, not about me.

I think people who want to make enlightenment out to be long and complicated and hard and many-staged and with hundreds of separate insights in complicated sequences are doing themselves and anyone else they talk to a disservice.

   It's not that you make people feel inferior, bra. Quite the opposite, in fact. And making people feel superior to you does them no more good than the opposite.

   While enlightenment may be simple and easy (actually, it's neither simple nor complex, neither easy nor hard, being beyond discrimination), it is not doable by any techniques known to humanity. If the "trick" were easily taught, we'd all know it by now.

   I think most of the people here are "enlightened" from time to time and many know the trick. You've been around the block here before and certainly have plenty of insight. You should know anyone with opinions is not enlightened.


terry
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Jim Smith, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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terry:

 You should know anyone with opinions is not enlightened.



That's your opinion.
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Jim Smith:
terry:

 You should know anyone with opinions is not enlightened.



That's your opinion.

   Yes, and I'm not enlightened, never have been and never will be. So help me god.

t
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Jim Smith, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Chris Marti:
Is there something you in particular are struggling with?

I struggle to understand folks who are hell bent on telling others how simple and easy it is to wake up. It tends to make them feel inferior. So many people here are putting in so much time into their practice, and I imagine this has the stink of an insult to them. Maybe that's the motivation?

Some schools of Buddhism don't talk much about enlightenment, stages etc, just how to practice. Maybe there is an advantage to that style.

Otherwise students may develop an attachment to (obsession with) enlightenment, or this stage, or that experience, and it becomes more of a hinderance than an inducement. Instead of investigating the origination and cessation of dukkha they look for something else.

And the common misunderstanding of overestimating what awakening really is, only adds to their confusion.

I think Shinzen Young's views on gradual enlightenment are helpful because if you have everyone on a continuum it is more egalitarian than if you have some people who get it and some who don't (which is not really true if Young is correct). Sometimes people place too much importance on an experience and not enough on actual changes caused by practice. If people would undersand Shinzen's views I think it would be beneficial.
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Jim Smith, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Does rapid noting let people get awakened without first untangling their psychological knots?

It seems to me "everybody" claims their system is best and fastest. At least I have heard those claims from may different types of meditation. Are the claims made about rapid noting significantly different than the claims made in the opening post of this thread?

I believe Daniel Ingram is fond of saying things along the lines of: just do the meditation to find out what the practice does for you. He has certainly made similar comments to me in these forums. How is that different from what nintheye is saying?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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I think what people found possibly problematic was the "dead simple" phrasing, although it was clarified that simple and easy are different things. 

I don't think advocating one serious method differs from advocating a different serious method, other things being equal. I don't have a problem with people advocating a different method from what is most common on this forum. I don't have a problem with people arguing against it either. Personally, I don't quite get what motivates long and sometimes infected discussions about which path is best (I'm not only referring to this specific thread), as I think it seems pretty obvious that different paths work differently for different people and it seems to me that the energy is better invested in actually doing some practice. On the other hand, I think it is healthy to have critical discussions in order to spread knowledge about possible pitfalls of different traditions so that people can make more informed decisions and add aspects to their practice if it seems to be called for, and compare and critically reflect on taken-for-granted assumptions and group norms if applicable. I also find it very understandable that people wish to spread the word about something that made a breakthrough possible for themselves (and at the same time I can also see risks in that, as there can be a tendency to overlook pitfalls in that newborn enthusiasm).
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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I tend to gravitate towards relationships that could easily be sustained without massive hits of psychedelica.
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Rich Lee, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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nintheye:
Every time you think the word "I," a bell chimes somewhere. Follow, as best you can, the sound of that bell.

Not in my experience it doesn't.

The direction given seems like an instruction to visualise (auditorialose?) or imagine a bell sounding. Is that not a construct? How does that object lead to the _real_?
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Rich Lee:
nintheye:
Every time you think the word "I," a bell chimes somewhere. Follow, as best you can, the sound of that bell.

Not in my experience it doesn't.

The direction given seems like an instruction to visualise (auditorialose?) or imagine a bell sounding. Is that not a construct? How does that object lead to the _real_?
This is taking what I'm saying far too literally. The word "I" points to something. You know that you are. What is the nature of that knowledge? If I put an ice cube in your hand and asked you where the cold was coming from, you'd say, "from my hand." But if I asked you where the "I" is coming from, that is, where the knowledge that "I am aware" is coming from... well, and if you searched for that, then you'd be engaged in self-inquiry.

Because that's the paradox of self-inquiry. That you are is self-evident. In what precisely that knowledge consists becomes elusive as soon as you start searching.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Awareness is self-evident, but the idea that the construction I is what is aware, that's a joke. 
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Awareness is self-evident, but the idea that the construction I is what is aware, that's a joke. 
Well, that's true, it is a kind of cosmic joke.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

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"I am a cosmic joke. I am a cosmic joke. I am a cosmic joke."

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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 1664 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
"I am a cosmic joke. I am a cosmic joke. I am a cosmic joke."

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How dare you making a joke about the cosmic joke!? 

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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 3864 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Hey, stop joking about my joke about the joke, okay?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 1664 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
My cosmic joke is better than your cosmic joke, ok?
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
nintheye:
Rich Lee:
nintheye:
Every time you think the word "I," a bell chimes somewhere. Follow, as best you can, the sound of that bell.

Not in my experience it doesn't.

The direction given seems like an instruction to visualise (auditorialose?) or imagine a bell sounding. Is that not a construct? How does that object lead to the _real_?
This is taking what I'm saying far too literally. The word "I" points to something. You know that you are. What is the nature of that knowledge? If I put an ice cube in your hand and asked you where the cold was coming from, you'd say, "from my hand." But if I asked you where the "I" is coming from, that is, where the knowledge that "I am aware" is coming from... well, and if you searched for that, then you'd be engaged in self-inquiry.

Because that's the paradox of self-inquiry. That you are is self-evident. In what precisely that knowledge consists becomes elusive as soon as you start searching.

   "That you are is self evident." That is what descartes proposes: "I think, therefore I am."

   The buddha teaches the opposite.

t
T, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 275 Join Date: 1/15/19 Recent Posts
In an effort to be impartial and open...

I followed a couple of your links, read through a couple of the methods and gave it a whirl. It changed my sense of me-ness, no doubt. It seems like what the videos of... what's his name.... Mooji on Youtube I've seen do. After poking around a bit, it seemed as though my appendages were as impersonal as the table my feet were propped on top of. 

For a few minutes, it felt as though everything were in front of "me" including the sensations of my back, which typically feel behind me from the coordinate system. That lasted on and off about 10 minutes. 

Anyway. 

Am I enlightened? No.

Do his methods work? No idea. I can't say if that's even the shift one is looking for in this "non attainment without striving" that everyone is striving to attain. Something felt different by doing it for a bit. So take that for whatever it's worth. Maharshi taught them. He's just trying to be more specific on what it means to ask "who am I," and I can admit that having tried that initially it didn't make much sense to me. So thanks, man. 
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 199 Join Date: 11/4/18 Recent Posts
T:
In an effort to be impartial and open...

I followed a couple of your links, read through a couple of the methods and gave it a whirl. It changed my sense of me-ness, no doubt. It seems like what the videos of... what's his name.... Mooji on Youtube I've seen do. After poking around a bit, it seemed as though my appendages were as impersonal as the table my feet were propped on top of. 

For a few minutes, it felt as though everything were in front of "me" including the sensations of my back, which typically feel behind me from the coordinate system. That lasted on and off about 10 minutes. 
Right, but that's just the very first step. You then ask -- to whom are these sensations occurring? Redirect your attention to the one who is aware of the sensations. The weird sensations aren't the point. Whatever new weird thought or state or feeling occurs, redirect your attention from that to the one who is aware of it... chase that one, attempt to localize that one, being satisfied with no answer (since each answer is actually something which that one is "aware of").

Keep inquiring. Relentlessly. Every waking moment until clarity. It could take you years, decades even. Don't put any timeline on it and don't put any expectation on what "it's supposed" to be like. It will be clear to you when it's clear to you.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 1664 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
nintheye:
[quote=
]

"Keep inquiring. Relentlessly. Every waking moment until clarity. It could take you years, decades even. Don't put any timeline on it and don't put any expectation on what "it's supposed" to be like. It will be clear to you when it's clear to you."



Didn't you say "awakening is dead simple" emoticon and here you say Keep at it , relentlesly, every waking moment until clarity ... it will take you YEARS, DECADES even emoticon Jeez man! How can this be "dead simple" ? 

You know what? Im tired of listening to this kind of teaching; "keep looking that there is no YOU in there" and creating a fu.k up out of one's life. So many go into killing their Ego, the Self, ... what ever and becoming psychotic wrecks.
Maybe some of you need this kind of teaching which to me could only be ok for a single person that is in a protected environment like a monastery, with a very good guidance. 

For those of us living amongst everyday humans, working colegues and family members its of more benefit to See that there is no Self in the very observace of any given sensate experience. In that profound moment of Sati there is nothing other than "in seeing there is only the seen, refering back to no one". Sense of self exist only in the action of self-validation afterwards. Im totally ok with what Buddha is teaching here. Hence he never really went on and on about weather there is a Self or No-Self.

But yes, awakening is very simple if you just keep at having THIS moment enlightened with profound Sati (contact) with the object; seeing, seeing, seeing, itching, itching, itching ... (I cant sense any Self during this Enlightened moment).
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 3864 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
How can this be "dead simple" ? 

Sales and marketing. Maybe evangelism  emoticon
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 199 Join Date: 11/4/18 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
nintheye:
[quote=
]

"Keep inquiring. Relentlessly. Every waking moment until clarity. It could take you years, decades even. Don't put any timeline on it and don't put any expectation on what "it's supposed" to be like. It will be clear to you when it's clear to you."



Didn't you say "awakening is dead simple" emoticon and here you say Keep at it , relentlesly, every waking moment until clarity ... it will take you YEARS, DECADES even emoticon Jeez man! How can this be "dead simple" ? 

You know what? Im tired of listening to this kind of teaching; "keep looking that there is no YOU in there" and creating a fu.k up out of one's life. So many go into killing their Ego, the Self, ... what ever and becoming psychotic wrecks.
Maybe some of you need this kind of teaching which to me could only be ok for a single person that is in a protected environment like a monastery, with a very good guidance. 

For those of us living amongst everyday humans, working colegues and family members its of more benefit to See that there is no Self in the very observace of any given sensate experience. In that profound moment of Sati there is nothing other than "in seeing there is only the seen, refering back to no one". Sense of self exist only in the action of self-validation afterwards. Im totally ok with what Buddha is teaching here. Hence he never really went on and on about weather there is a Self or No-Self.

But yes, awakening is very simple if you just keep at having THIS moment enlightened with profound Sati (contact) with the object; seeing, seeing, seeing, itching, itching, itching ... (I cant sense any Self during this Enlightened moment).
Simple isn't the same as easy. Put in intense concentration without expectation of when or how and that very effort is itself awakening. That's the paradox. Be willing to wait decades and you might just see the truth: that what you're looking for is already accomplished. 

As far as this guidance being only suitable for monks, nothing could be farther from the truth. What will be done will be done. What won't be, won't be. You are not the doer... it is this truth that intense concentration on self-inquiry or surrender will reveal. 
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
nintheye:
Papa Che Dusko:
nintheye:
[quote=
]

"Keep inquiring. Relentlessly. Every waking moment until clarity. It could take you years, decades even. Don't put any timeline on it and don't put any expectation on what "it's supposed" to be like. It will be clear to you when it's clear to you."



Didn't you say "awakening is dead simple" emoticon and here you say Keep at it , relentlesly, every waking moment until clarity ... it will take you YEARS, DECADES even emoticon Jeez man! How can this be "dead simple" ? 

You know what? Im tired of listening to this kind of teaching; "keep looking that there is no YOU in there" and creating a fu.k up out of one's life. So many go into killing their Ego, the Self, ... what ever and becoming psychotic wrecks.
Maybe some of you need this kind of teaching which to me could only be ok for a single person that is in a protected environment like a monastery, with a very good guidance. 

For those of us living amongst everyday humans, working colegues and family members its of more benefit to See that there is no Self in the very observace of any given sensate experience. In that profound moment of Sati there is nothing other than "in seeing there is only the seen, refering back to no one". Sense of self exist only in the action of self-validation afterwards. Im totally ok with what Buddha is teaching here. Hence he never really went on and on about weather there is a Self or No-Self.

But yes, awakening is very simple if you just keep at having THIS moment enlightened with profound Sati (contact) with the object; seeing, seeing, seeing, itching, itching, itching ... (I cant sense any Self during this Enlightened moment).
Simple isn't the same as easy. Put in intense concentration without expectation of when or how and that very effort is itself awakening. That's the paradox. Be willing to wait decades and you might just see the truth: that what you're looking for is already accomplished. 

As far as this guidance being only suitable for monks, nothing could be farther from the truth. What will be done will be done. What won't be, won't be. You are not the doer... it is this truth that intense concentration on self-inquiry or surrender will reveal. 


   How about being willing to wait a million billion lifetimes? Maybe more?

t
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
nintheye:
[quote=
]

"Keep inquiring. Relentlessly. Every waking moment until clarity. It could take you years, decades even. Don't put any timeline on it and don't put any expectation on what "it's supposed" to be like. It will be clear to you when it's clear to you."



Didn't you say "awakening is dead simple" emoticon and here you say Keep at it , relentlesly, every waking moment until clarity ... it will take you YEARS, DECADES even emoticon Jeez man! How can this be "dead simple" ? 

You know what? Im tired of listening to this kind of teaching; "keep looking that there is no YOU in there" and creating a fu.k up out of one's life. So many go into killing their Ego, the Self, ... what ever and becoming psychotic wrecks.
Maybe some of you need this kind of teaching which to me could only be ok for a single person that is in a protected environment like a monastery, with a very good guidance. 

For those of us living amongst everyday humans, working colegues and family members its of more benefit to See that there is no Self in the very observace of any given sensate experience. In that profound moment of Sati there is nothing other than "in seeing there is only the seen, refering back to no one". Sense of self exist only in the action of self-validation afterwards. Im totally ok with what Buddha is teaching here. Hence he never really went on and on about weather there is a Self or No-Self.

But yes, awakening is very simple if you just keep at having THIS moment enlightened with profound Sati (contact) with the object; seeing, seeing, seeing, itching, itching, itching ... (I cant sense any Self during this Enlightened moment).


   The buddha went on and on about non self, the five skandhas, etc etc etc etc... Are you ok with that?

t



the very first sutta of the majjhima nikaya was not received well by the bhikkhus...it is too long to quote the whole thing, and it barely touches on non self, but it is the heart of the matter... you could read it at the sutta central website...


from MN sutta one, "The Root of All Things":
 

“Bhikkhus, the Tathāgata, too, accomplished and fully enlightened, directly knows earth as earth. Having directly known earth as earth, he does not conceive himself as earth, he does not conceive himself in earth, he does not conceive himself apart from earth, he does not conceive earth to be ‘mine,’ he does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has understood that delight is the root of suffering, and that with being as condition there is birth, and that for whatever has come to be there is ageing and death. Therefore, bhikkhus, through the complete destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of cravings, the Tathāgata has awakened to supreme full enlightenment, I say.

“He too directly knows water as water…Nibbāna as Nibbāna…Why is that? Because he has understood that delight is the root of suffering, and that with being as condition there is birth, and that for whatever has come to be there is ageing and death. Therefore, bhikkhus, through the complete destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of cravings, the Tathāgata has awakened to supreme full enlightenment, I say.”

That is what the Blessed One said, but those bhikkhus did not delight in the Blessed One’s words.
nintheye, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: If you really want it, awakening is dead simple

Posts: 199 Join Date: 11/4/18 Recent Posts
terry:
nintheye:
Rich Lee:
nintheye:
Every time you think the word "I," a bell chimes somewhere. Follow, as best you can, the sound of that bell.

Not in my experience it doesn't.

The direction given seems like an instruction to visualise (auditorialose?) or imagine a bell sounding. Is that not a construct? How does that object lead to the _real_?
This is taking what I'm saying far too literally. The word "I" points to something. You know that you are. What is the nature of that knowledge? If I put an ice cube in your hand and asked you where the cold was coming from, you'd say, "from my hand." But if I asked you where the "I" is coming from, that is, where the knowledge that "I am aware" is coming from... well, and if you searched for that, then you'd be engaged in self-inquiry.

Because that's the paradox of self-inquiry. That you are is self-evident. In what precisely that knowledge consists becomes elusive as soon as you start searching.

   "That you are is self evident." That is what descartes proposes: "I think, therefore I am."

   The buddha teaches the opposite.

t

Actually, that's the point. You are -- seemingly -- self-evident. Seemingly. And you are, in fact -- you are. Only you are not what you think you are. You are not even that you think you are.

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