Sorry in advance for a long post. I have started doing Vipissana style noting meditation. This has generated lots of questions. Mostly I'm not sure what the experiences I am having mean. I'm not sure what stage I'm in. I also am not sure if I am doing the noting properly.

So, some questions:

1 - At this point in my progress, at about 20-25 minutes into a session I will get involuntary shivers starting at the neck and running down into my legs. This will happen repeatedly maybe 5-10 times in quick succession. Then maybe 5 minutes later I will get another series of them, and so on. They are sort of pleasurable but not mind-blowing. I also seem to be able to initiate one weak pulse at will (which doesn't repeat), and I can even do this when not meditating. What does this signify? What stage am I in? Are these the "vibrations" everyone talks about?

2 - When I get to #1, I try to shift my attention to the shivering and note it, but the vibrations in it are really too fast to note. Any ideas here?

3 - Sometimes I'm not sure what to call a sensation, and by the time I figure something out it has long passed. Or I am afraid I am calling two slightly different things by the same name. Any advice?

4 - When is the right time to stop doing the noting and just pay attention?

5 - I don't detect any vibrations in my breathing no matter how hard I concentrate. I seem to be altering the breath pattern by focusing on it. Like it comes in huh-huh-huh in half second intervals. Is this vibration?

6 - Sometimes my body will jerk or my ear will twitch. What up with that?

7- Sometimes I will find that I have something like falling asleep and jerking awake, but it's different than that. What's that?

8- I seem to have a very mild throbbing headache in my forehead since I have started. Ideas?

9 - When breathing, how should you note the breath. I notice it continually so do I say "in-in-in-in" really fast? Do I say starting or ending or stopped or something else during part of it?

10 - I will often get random odd thoughts pop into my head. Also I seem to often get mental images of different odd faces and creatures of some sort popping in. They are detailed and are always something I've never seen before. any thoguhts?

Thanks for any help...
Steve

1- These are refered to as PITI, these are waves of blss/rapture from anticipation of the first Jhana in the Samandhi sense, you most likely are anticipating the st Jhana, the trick is to let that anticipation go and settle into it without overtness.

2- Don't note the parts of the shiver, note it as a whole and let it go.

3- Don't stress noting, just note it quickly as best you can as it comes up and see it fall.

4- Traditionally you can concentrate on breath til you get a deep relaxation then switch to noting. If you choose to do a choiceless type meditation then do it and still be mindful of what arises, personally pick a style and go with it or experiment.

5- Don't focus on your breath in parts, focus on it as a whole, you will get better results.

6- Observe and let pass.

7- Make sure you have a solid straight posture and be mindful of what arises with an alter mind, you seem to be dozing a bit, which is to do with your energy, re-read part of MTCB on energy.

8- I would just note or take tylenol .

9- IN - OUT - IN - OUT....

10- Note your thoughts as they arise, let the thoughts come as they would, just note, this is just stuff bubbling up from your unconscious, confront it.

I would suggest reading up on this, I found it very useful:

http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english.php

MTCB has a good instructional section too.

Welcome to the Forums.

So does this correspond to not quite finishing the A&P then? So once I learn to sustain this shivering it will expand to a full rapture and then Dark Night will begin?


OK, so I am getting somewhat confused on the level of detail I am supposed to be looking for. Sometimes I read where you want to notice every single sensation so you can see impermanence at a more granular level, but you are saying you want to avoid that? Can you explain? Is it a mix of both or just different styles both leading to the same result?

Clarification of points:

1- It could be a number of things, but a wave of pleasure might very well be PITI, which is a wave of bliss/rapture. They happen when you want to get into a Jhana, and almost crest it, but can't do it (i.e. to get in you need to not push for it, just let it ihappen). I've had strong and weak waves of Piti wash over me. If it was an A&P, then keep meditating and see if you get into the Dark Night (3rd insight Jhana), if it is, then it was most likely an A&P, otherwise keep going, stranger bodily sensations sometimes come up during meditation, so it could just be that.

2- sometimes a sensation is an aggregate, that is you shouldn't bother with breaking down. For instance if I have a thought I note "thinking" regardless if I thought about some conversation I had earlier in the day, I don't break it down and thing of the individual components, something too fast to note like a shiver, probably should be simply noted, don't get too specific.

5- Please read my link or another resource on vipassana, from all the instruction I've seen, you don't note the individual components of the breath per-se overtly, you just note the break IN - OUT, if it breaks down further and seems disjointed.

You want to notice what comes up, but it's not ever going to be perfect, especially at the beginning, start with breath, as a whole… then note as things come up. Noting is a skill that is built overtime through mindfulness and mindfulness builds good noting. So first time you sit, you might note thoughts and breath and that's it, or the occasional itch or whatever. Doesn't have to be perfect, you'll miss some, you won't name the properly, no biggie. As you get better you might note IN - OUT - SITTING - In - OUT -Sitting- In - OUT -Sitting - IN - Thinking- OUT -Sitting - CAR (as it passes outside) - In - OUT -Sitting - In - OUT -Sitting - In - OUT -Sitting - ITCH.

I am at a point in my noting where I can note the fan from my computer as having a very fast pulse, I don't try to not every single little pulse, but I can pick up the rise and fall of these components, there are several a second. The rise and fall are noted and this is clear to see as impermanent, but they continue, my in is a rise and out is a fall, my itch comes, it goes, that's all, don't stress to not every single little thing, once you can note a few things a second I think you are onto good noting practice. It's about being consistent.

Maybe 1st nana, maybe 2nd nana, maybe 3rd nana, probably 4th nana, maybe 5th etc...
More info needed.



Note "vibrations", maybe note also the tone of vibrations, pleasant, unplEasant, neutral. Eg. Vibrations-pleasant, vibrations neutral.


Howabout noting it as "sensation" or "confusion" or "vibrations" or "pleasant" or "unpleasant" etc?



Usually in high equanimity. But it will feel quite natural and possible to do so. All phenomena will be easily seen to arise and pass without the need to note it all.



Why are you looking for vibrations? If you are "looking for" something note the mind state of "looking for". Stop worrying about what is vibration and what is not vibration and just note what you observe and what is occurring right in the very moment. It's not looking for it's looking AT!



A body jerk, an ear twitch. Note it and move on. It's not important. The process of insight will undo a lot of physical knots. Let them untie themselves.



Falling asleep and jerking awake + speculation/proliferation/wishful thinking/scripting? More info needed to speculate and proliferate further. What happens right before such jerks and right after such jerks, phenomenologically speaking?



Mild throbbing headache? Again, the process of insight unravels a lot of stuff. Let it happen and note it when it does.



You could note "breathing in", "breathing out" maybe, or just "breath", or "touch of breath" or "in" and "out". You don't have to note continuously like that if it feels odd. It doesn't matter what you note as long as you notice the breath. One "in" and one "out" was enough for me. In the spaces in between noting, the mind was aware of the breath still. Noting just keeps you on track and aware of what is noticed. If you are noting so fast that all you are aware of is the noting, then you may not be noticing what you were noting originally. Noticing is more important. Use the noting technique to be able to do this and stay on track. It doesn't have to be very fast. That is one way to do it. Here are two techniques i used:

http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/yogi-toolbox-fast-noting.html

http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/02/yogi-toolbox-detailed-noting.html



Note the thoughts as "thoughts" or as "planning", or "worrying" or "speculating" or "wandering" etc. Note the images as "images" or "seeing" or whatever you feel comfortable using as a term to objectify. By getting sucked into the scenario or theme of the thoughts and images the mind may begin to proliferate of of them. This is called papanca. Note the hell out of it.

My 2 cents.

:-)

Well, this just happened a few minutes ago. I was to a point where I was staying with the breath somewhat well but getting random thoughts and images popping in - sort of forgetting to note while these were happening and having to go back to noting. So I'm right in the middle of one of these thought patterns and all of a sudden I feel a sort of pop or jerk and my eyes open with the world seeming bright and defined for a few seconds. I didn't and don't feel tired so it doesn't seem like a sleep thing.

Let's see if it continues. Keep us posted on your practice, Steve. Keep doing what you are doing.

:-)

A couple of things I have also noticed recently:

- I had one moment where it felt like time had stopped for a few seconds. Hard to explain. Any thoughts on that?

- Sometimes I look at my hands or legs now and get the feeling like they aren't mine, or that they look fake.

- I was getting the waves of shivers running from neck to feet for a week or two, but that has started to taper off and become less strong and less frequent.

I'm still not sure what stage I'm in....

Hi Steve,

You are going to have to give more phenomenological details to your experience as it is virtually impossible to help diagnose experiences without such detail. I experienced this a lot when i was a kid. But I have no idea how exactly it is for you. What else occurs in these seconds? Sense of self? How are the senses operating?



More info needed to diagnose this. THis can occur in a variety of states. What is happening when this happens. What else accompanies such occurrences?



Could be any of the stages. More details needed. This is not enough to help you.



Me neither. More details please! Try and really explain all the phenomenological occurences around this occurrences that you ask about.


:-)


Nick

OK this happened only once and it was shortly after I woke up one morning. Never happened before. I was looking at my pillow/blankets and felt as though time had stopped for maybe 2-3 seconds. The world seemed to pause for the duration. Everything just stopped, but did not disappear - I still sensed it. It was like all of a sudden everything was a still snapshot that I saw for 3 seconds. Everything was normal before and after this.


Well everything is just normal and then I look at my hands and notice it. Then I kind of just keep looking at them and try to get a feel for what it's like. I find it interesting, etc. Then I just go back to what I was doing. Nothing odd after I notice this.



With the shivering, it happens about 15-20 minutes into sitting. I will be concentrating on breath fairly well and noting with some minor distraction. Then I will notice by eyes turn upward and then the shivering starts. Goes from head to legs and then sort of stays buzzing in the legs for a few seconds. Then it happens again. Maybe 4-5 times. Somewhat pleasurable - sometimes moderately. It will fade away and then I try to get it back or hope it will return because I think it means I am getting close. Or sometimes I observe it. Afterwards it is just calm and then might happen again.

Steve, I have that shivering happening at times too. It happened while I just meditated a little while ago. It might be due to my posture, and my body struggling with it, or my leg falling asleep. I don't have a meditation pillow so I just sit on the carpet, cross-legged and this might be my issue. But I'm going to note when it occurs. Actually, the sensation and just noting the various shivers drove me into a nice state, so it was useful.

Best of luck!

For the past few sits I generally will be noting and then soon get a feeling where my head is throbbing, with dizziness following each throb. This seems to intensify if I synchorinze my beathing and noting of the breath to the throbbing.

I feel like it's hard to concentrate on my breath and meditation seems less easy - easy to get distracted. Sometimes I will get the shivering/vibrations along the back, and sometimes I get a feeling of floating up or that my head is tilted in a crazy way and beside my neck. Seems random as to which it is and when although the odd things usually occur well into a sit. Visions are becoming less prominent. I have had nothing yet that I would call an "insight" as such. Mood is fairly good. I had a bizarre nigthtmare which seemed Dark Nightish with lots of disturbing images but woke up and wasn't scared or anxious about it. Seems like nothing much is progressing at this point. Same stuff happens.

Any thoughts?

Instead of syncing the breath with the throbbing, have you tried just noting the throbbing as it arises and passes? Also, see what happens with different types of attention to this throbbing (no attention, direct attention, attention mostly to the arising or mostly to the passing away).