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Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?

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Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/9/20 10:53 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Papa Che Dusko 4/9/20 11:16 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Hibiscus Kid 4/9/20 11:24 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/9/20 11:52 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/9/20 11:55 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/9/20 12:00 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Hibiscus Kid 4/9/20 12:58 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/9/20 1:13 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? shargrol 4/9/20 12:02 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Nikolai . 4/10/20 1:43 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/10/20 1:31 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/10/20 4:13 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Papa Che Dusko 4/10/20 4:22 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Nikolai . 4/10/20 7:26 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? shargrol 4/10/20 6:28 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/10/20 6:57 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/10/20 7:42 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Papa Che Dusko 4/10/20 7:52 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/10/20 8:04 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/10/20 8:11 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/10/20 8:31 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/10/20 8:33 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/10/20 8:40 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/10/20 8:44 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/10/20 8:49 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/10/20 8:49 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/10/20 8:51 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/10/20 9:03 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/10/20 9:04 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/10/20 9:06 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/10/20 9:37 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/10/20 9:49 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/11/20 1:18 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Steph S 4/11/20 3:29 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/11/20 3:38 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/11/20 1:45 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/11/20 5:23 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/11/20 9:02 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/11/20 11:38 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Papa Che Dusko 4/12/20 3:28 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Papa Che Dusko 4/12/20 3:42 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/12/20 4:02 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/12/20 4:04 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/11/20 8:56 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Griffin 4/11/20 11:55 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/11/20 1:40 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Steph S 4/17/20 10:27 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/11/20 8:47 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/10/20 12:25 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/10/20 12:35 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/10/20 12:48 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/10/20 1:02 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/10/20 7:25 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/10/20 7:34 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/10/20 7:34 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/9/20 12:02 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? shargrol 4/9/20 12:12 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/9/20 12:31 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/9/20 12:36 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/9/20 12:40 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/9/20 12:45 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/9/20 12:55 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/9/20 1:00 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/9/20 1:03 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/9/20 1:12 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/9/20 1:24 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/11/20 1:33 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/9/20 2:29 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Siavash 4/9/20 2:56 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/9/20 3:10 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/9/20 3:21 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Milo 4/9/20 2:08 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? T 4/10/20 6:39 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/9/20 12:36 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/9/20 12:40 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? shargrol 4/9/20 2:13 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/9/20 2:17 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/9/20 12:47 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/9/20 12:52 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/9/20 11:53 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/9/20 12:00 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/17/20 1:36 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/17/20 6:20 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/17/20 6:26 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Griffin 4/20/20 4:24 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/23/20 11:55 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/23/20 11:58 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/23/20 12:01 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/23/20 12:05 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/23/20 1:57 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/23/20 5:30 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/23/20 5:32 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/24/20 5:43 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/24/20 6:01 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/24/20 6:03 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/24/20 6:07 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/24/20 6:16 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/24/20 6:21 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/24/20 6:31 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/24/20 6:50 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/24/20 6:51 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Papa Che Dusko 4/24/20 7:48 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/24/20 7:58 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/24/20 6:13 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Siavash 4/24/20 6:27 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/24/20 6:28 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 8:49 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 8:51 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 8:53 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/25/20 8:59 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 9:21 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 9:26 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/25/20 9:31 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 9:38 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 9:36 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 9:19 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 10:12 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 10:31 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 10:37 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 10:46 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 10:42 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/25/20 11:05 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 11:09 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 11:19 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 11:28 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Siavash 4/25/20 11:09 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/25/20 1:31 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Siavash 4/25/20 3:38 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 11:17 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 10:52 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 10:57 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 11:17 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 11:19 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 11:21 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 11:28 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 11:32 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 12:32 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 12:34 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 1:13 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 1:07 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 1:19 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/25/20 1:22 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/25/20 1:26 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/26/20 8:47 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/26/20 9:15 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/26/20 9:18 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/26/20 9:58 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/26/20 10:34 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/26/20 11:22 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? shargrol 4/26/20 9:59 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Steph S 4/26/20 10:46 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/26/20 10:33 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/26/20 10:51 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/26/20 11:41 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/26/20 11:51 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/26/20 12:18 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/26/20 12:23 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/26/20 6:46 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/27/20 6:15 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/27/20 6:32 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/27/20 7:15 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/27/20 7:31 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/27/20 7:32 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/27/20 8:23 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/27/20 4:33 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Siavash 4/27/20 5:19 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? T 4/28/20 6:26 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/28/20 6:33 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/26/20 11:56 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/26/20 12:13 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/27/20 5:57 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/28/20 5:56 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/28/20 6:00 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/28/20 6:06 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/28/20 6:11 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/28/20 6:12 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/28/20 6:15 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/28/20 6:32 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/28/20 6:37 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/28/20 6:40 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/28/20 6:50 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/28/20 6:54 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/28/20 6:52 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Smiling Stone 4/28/20 9:41 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/28/20 10:01 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/28/20 10:39 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/28/20 11:28 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/28/20 12:51 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/28/20 1:18 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/28/20 4:04 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/28/20 9:56 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Smiling Stone 4/28/20 11:15 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/28/20 4:09 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Brandon Dayton 4/29/20 9:26 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/29/20 9:49 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/24/20 6:02 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/17/20 6:24 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/17/20 6:27 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/17/20 6:28 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/17/20 6:29 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/17/20 6:33 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/17/20 6:40 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/17/20 6:47 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/17/20 6:50 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Steph S 4/17/20 10:22 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/17/20 12:09 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Steph S 4/17/20 12:20 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/17/20 12:38 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/17/20 6:32 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/17/20 6:33 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Chris Marti 4/17/20 6:35 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/17/20 6:41 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/17/20 6:40 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? Tim Farrington 4/17/20 6:29 AM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? agnostic 4/9/20 12:39 PM
RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? John H 4/20/20 12:54 AM
I keep reading references to Chris Marti's practice logs, but I can't find anything via search. Anyone have a link?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 11:16 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Him carved them eut of DhO and locked them into a chest, which he hid on an island known to no men! And the key to this chest he hides under his many tanticles!

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 11:24 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
http://awakenetwork.org/magazine/cmarti/70

Edit: The link is correct but the server is being finicky. It may take a few attempts to open. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 11:52 AM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
The diary I made is not on DhO. It's on another system that some of us created when the Great Schism occurred on another system we created when the Great Schism occurred here.

Cue shargrol!

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 11:53 AM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
Thanks!

It'd be nice to have a link or something in the wiki. These get referenced enough that I'm sure they'd qualify as "Best of DhO".

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 11:55 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Just started reading. Nothing like starting a log with a description of Stream Entry! How much practice preceded this?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:00 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Zen - about six years
Classic Theravada - about two years
Pragmatic Theravada - about a year ( post-second reading of MCTB )

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:00 PM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
Hibiscus Kid:
http://awakenetwork.org/magazine/cmarti/70

Edit: The link is correct but the server is being finicky. It may take a few attempts to open. 


The link worked for me first time, HK, thank you so much. I'm only a short ways in, but am loving it. Chris, emoticon.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:02 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
SCHISM!!!!!! SChismmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:02 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
The diary I made is not on DhO. It's on another system that some of us created when the Great Schism occurred on another system we created when the Great Schism occurred here.

Cue shargrol!
I want a history seminar. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:12 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
The diary I made is not on DhO. It's on another system that some of us created when the Great Schism occurred on another system we created when the Great Schism occurred here.

Cue shargrol!
I want a history seminar. 
Search "schism" emoticon


edit: here's a good one:

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/8866107?_19_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dharmaoverground.org%2Fdiscussion%2F-%2Fmessage_boards%2Fsearch%3F_19_redirect%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.dharmaoverground.org%252Fdiscussion%252F-%252Fmessage_boards%252Frecent-posts%26_19_keywords%3Dschism%26_19_formDate%3D1586451928002%26_19_breadcrumbsCategoryId%3D0%26_19_searchCategoryId%3D0#_19_message_8866107

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:39 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Thanks for bringing these up Brandon.

It's funny, I read these sometime last year and they gave me a bump. I thought how cool, I can relate to this guy. I found myself wondering what had happened to him ...

Now I know! Somehow I had forgotten and didn't realise he was our moderator ... nice to finally put two and two together! 

Re-reading, here's what jumped out at me ...

cmarti
May 9 2010, 9:27 PM EDT | Post edited: May 9 2010, 9:28 PM EDT
What prompted Kenneth’s last comment was this private message from me:
“Kenneth, I’ve become somehow laser beamed in on the nature of experience and I thus realized that it has to be only what it is, just what it is, and that somehow the seeking of some “it” factor, some nebulously defined desire to find a “thing” that would allow me to get the thing is ridiculous and a complete waste of time.
This little tiny realization – why is this realization so oddly powerful? It has always, always been a part of my presumption about experience and what is going on — that there is something I wasn’t seeing.
It’s NOT TRUE.
I’m seeing what there is to see, and the dropping of that unstated assumption about what is going on makes such a major difference.
How odd! WTF???
It is as though the trying, the wishing, the assuming, is what gets in the way of just seeing. Over the past few days it has become more obvious that what happens is just plainly what happens. This is a such a weird little change to the thing. Is this possibly the result of the fact that I have been absolutely and relentlessly focused on this stuff for a few weeks now?
When this began happening on Friday it was absolutely and abundantly clear, much like in non-dual awareness, that there is nothing simpler, though this is not like non-dual awareness but is its phenomenological cousin. Stop looking. Stop seeking, and just see. Of course, now that I type this it seems trite and silly and obvious. But it was not that way before and now it is.”
So, that’s the exchange, between us, but posted here in reverse order.

cmarti
May 19 2010, 1:42 PM EDT | Post edited: May 19 2010, 1:50 PM EDT
Okay, back in the saddle…. I ended my last thread very abruptly. Here’s why: I spent nine days on the road in late April and early May. This was business travel full of running around producing stuff and meeting people and managing things. At the end of those nine days I was bone tired. So I got on a plane at Dulles in Washington DC and flew home. This was Thursday May 6th. Window seat. I really like window seats because I like the sensation of flying and I like the view, which heightens that sensation. I was decompressing. I was listening to music. I looked out the window and saw some clouds floating by below me, and then …… **click ** Before that click I was what I have been all my life and throughout my practice: – out of sync with my experience – wondering what magical thing I could find to help me see what was really going on – driven by a process that seemed energetic, biological, inexorable, a dharma conveyor belt After that click I was: – in sync with experience, all of it. I mean ALL of it. – not wondering or seeking, knowing beyond any doubt that what I had been looking for all these years was right in front of me and always had been – off the energetic, biological conveyor belt What struck me then (and now) is that I had suddenly, somehow, managed to get out of my own way, phenomenologically speaking. No more need to seek, no need to see anything but what is right here, right now.
The import was thus — awareness became a part of perception. All the time, always on, real time, any time perception. Perception is wrapped in awareness, so to speak. This was not an event. I don’t know what happened. I don’t recall a fruition. I know those and how they feel, event the little ones. This was…. not that. But it did and still has immense consequences. TBC….


cmarti
May 19 2010, 1:47 PM EDT
Some pieces of a what I e-mailed to Kenneth a day later:
The tipping point, if there really is any one thing I can point to that seems to have caused “this” whatever-it-is, is the notion that the seeking is hiding the sought. That, weirdly, is everything in a nutshell. This is a cosmic joke. When this happened, I laughed out loud. I’m still laughing out loud when I think of this. It’s just funny. I seem to have taken a walk, aiming for the nearest corner but ended up going all the way around the city just to travel a few feet. The seeking, the urge and the act, are done. There is nothing to go out and find because it’s all right here, right in front of me. It always has been. Recognizing this and the utter simplicity of it clicked in my head as if a switch had been thrown. A void exists where the seeking was. The conveyor belt that has driven me to seek, to believe there was something I could or would find, has been turned off.

cmarti
Aug 22 2010, 12:20 PM EDT
“And how does your new sense of this insight into the provisionality of selfing differ from your pre-4th path sense of this provisionality?”
That’s a bit more complicated as there were quite a few provisional interpretations of “me” that I’ve held over time. They differ with stages and even within stages. Maybe it makes the most sense to talk about late 3rd path and whatever transition took place afterward. At late third path I could see the same things going on but held an unstated, innate and not-yet-thoroughly-examined assumption that there was somehow, somewhere, a controlling process or entity. I was actively, at times obsessively, trying to find that entity. Let’s just say I had Seeking Disease. The ending of that obsession (not a fruition-based transition but more like a simple recognition (insight) based on a thought or a “blip” of realization) seems to have caused the seeking mind to just stop and the mind to sync up with experience in a way that it becomes obvious that what’s in front of your nose is just what’s in front of your nose and all experience is on the same level playing field we talked about here a few days ago. There are no processes that control other processes, no privileged processes, no governing “me” process hidden away secretly controlling experience somewhere. It’s all just right here, right now.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:31 PM as a reply to shargrol.
Are there still schisms or have the axes been buried? 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:36 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
There are no schisms that I'm aware of. We all grew up and made nice to each other. Well, I grew up and made nice.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:36 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:

I am a cradle Catholic, and familar with Schisms since that Constantinople debacle. Thank you for the edit and tossing me a bone on the link. Now I want to know about KFD, OE, the Dharma Forum Refugees Camp, and awakenetwork. Is David Chapman the guy behind the Vividness and Meaningless blogs? Was he in the mix here at some point. Seriously, inquiring minds want the fucking dirt, guys. You scandal-light bastards need to come clean. I want my seminar!

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:40 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Okay, got a lot, on the Links page. I still want my history seminar. The tangled family trees of lineages are a particular interest of mine.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:40 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I'm glad. And relieved, because if there were one, I would most likely happen to walk into it blindly and make a mess. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:45 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
There are no schisms that I'm aware of. We all grew up and made nice to each other. Well, I grew up and made nice.


I knew it!! That's what they all say. 

edit: actually, very few of them say that, they ignore it, pretend nothing ever happened, or the pieces are still burning. You guys can joke about it. So i bow at the lotus feet of your state of the art nice-making. I'm going to get shargrol drunk, though, and see if he spills anything.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:47 PM as a reply to shargrol.
came for the logs, stayed for the SCHISMS! 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:52 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon Dayton:
came for the logs, stayed for the SCHISMS! 

emoticonemoticonemoticon.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:55 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Honestly, Tim, if you spend enough time looking for what happened you will find it all. It played out in public, online in these various places. There's no hiding it, and shargrol would definitely need to be drunk to explain it because it would take so fucking long.

It's got everything you need for a great novel - emotionally driven motivation, intrigue, batshit crazy characters, twisted plots and subplots. Hell, it could probably be made into the spiritual version of Game of Thrones, or my favorite trilogy, the Foundation Series by Asimov. By the way, if this ever sees the light of day as an adaption for film or tv, I want to play The Mule.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 12:58 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Oh wow, I was not aware that first path was preceded by so many years of practice. It seems your progress accelerated rapidly after that point so I just figured you were a meditation natural who was ripe for it. 

I know it's pointless to compare how long first path takes as it's different for everyone, but it normalizes it for those of us who take longer to get there. Based on what I've seen, some practitioners seem to get first path within a year if not only a few months of solid, consistent practice with a teacher. Good to see this works... eventually.  

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 1:00 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Damn it, now I'm getting curious! It sounds exactly like the kind of film I would love to watch. Can't someone hand over a large bottle of fine whisky to Shargrol? (Still pissed because whisky contains both gluten and loads of histamines and I can't digest any of it. I used to love a good whisky. 17-year-old Ardbeg, cask strength - omnomnom...)

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 1:03 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
My moment is long gone, as far as doing this story justice and making us all tons of money through Hollywood and foreign rights. I'm just been through so much stuff on other scenes, from Rajneesh, Baker Roshi, and Muktanada in the early 80s on. or it hit the scenes after i left, or whatever. Humans have scandals and schisms, gonna do what they do when they get together to do a better do. At this point i am just grateful to find a few hard-working, deep-practicing not-entirely-over-the-top assholes who have kept or recovered their senses of humor and who don't immediately tell me to do something stupid or ask for money.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 1:12 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
... who don't immediately tell me to do something stupid or ask for money.

Uh, about that money thing... now drop and give me twenty!


RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 1:13 PM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
I'm one of those who got stream entry rapidly, but that is a relative thing. Before that, I avoided formal meditation entirely for twenty years because it scared the crap out of me as a teenager. Then I did some attempts at meditating without knowing anything about methods, and that petered out. It turns out that I have been meditating informally without realizing that there are meditation methods like that. I honestly have no idea how much work I have put in. There seem to have been "relapses" into it now and then throughout my life, starting when I was a little kid. Having a systematic daily practice now after all that seems to boost a development that was always waiting to happen. I feel stupid for not starting earlier, but maybe that wouldn't have worked at all. And I probably couldn't have started earlier, since I didn't. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 1:24 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
... who don't immediately tell me to do something stupid or ask for money.

Uh, about that money thing... now drop and give me twenty!


The check is in the mail, Babaji. Right after I pay CC.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 2:08 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Honestly, Tim, if you spend enough time looking for what happened you will find it all. It played out in public, online in these various places. There's no hiding it, and shargrol would definitely need to be drunk to explain it because it would take so fucking long.

It's got everything you need for a great novel - emotionally driven motivation, intrigue, batshit crazy characters, twisted plots and subplots. Hell, it could probably be made into the spiritual version of Game of Thrones, or my favorite trilogy, the Foundation Series by Asimov. By the way, if this ever sees the light of day as an adaption for film or tv, I want to play The Mule.

Ooh Foundation. Don't hear that mentioned often. One of the greats! And one of those books that's so cerebral it's a wonder it snuck into the mass market.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 2:13 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
[quote=Tim Farrington
I am a cradle Catholic, and familar with Schisms since that Constantinople debacle. Thank you for the edit and tossing me a bone on the link. Now I want to know about KFD, OE, the Dharma Forum Refugees Camp, and awakenetwork. Is David Chapman the guy behind the Vividness and Meaningless blogs? Was he in the mix here at some point. Seriously, inquiring minds want the fucking dirt, guys. You scandal-light bastards need to come clean. I want my seminar!
]
Maybe David Chapman, possibly... I can't remember... but definately Alan Chapman of "Open Enlightenment" (and Wiser and now Magia) fame. 

And Chris is right, he did grow up and make nice. I was always nice and I never grew up. ;D

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/11/20 1:33 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I see this now in my daughter, who is 17 and suffers from depression. She and I got the chance to talk at great length earlier this week and it became clear to me, unless I’m projecting, that she senses the same dissatisfaction with the process of life that I did, but at a much older age. So now I’m thinking that people who recognize this mismatch, this paradigmatic disconnect, are the ones who will ultimately develop the drive and energy to awaken, and that we, people like us, need to figure out a way to provide an opening to these people.

I've had an inkling for awhile that what some people (myself included) experience of depression is exactly this, and recently I've thought of it as a spiritual sensitivity aka, an inability to ignore the dukkha. I have a brother who I can see this in and he is one of the most compassionate people I know as a result. This is the unshakable feeling that has cornered me into practice. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 2:17 PM as a reply to shargrol.
 Is David Chapman the guy behind the Vividness and Meaningless blogs? 

Yes.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 2:29 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
I think so too, and I include myself in that category. And I see it in my kid as well, but she's currently utterly sceptical about my practice and worries that I'm getting involved in some sect, so she will have to find her own way to the dharma when she's ready for it. 

Luckily she doesn't know about my mantra chanting, and I'm not going to tell her. I know exactly how it sounds.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 2:56 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Luckily she doesn't know about my mantra chanting, and I'm not going to tell her. I know exactly how it sounds.

I would say don't assume any protection/privacy over your shared data here on this forum. This is a public place, and a simple Google search on someone's name will reveal their posts. These posts are not hidden from search engines and doesn't need registration to be able to see them.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 3:10 PM as a reply to Siavash.
These posts are not hidden from search engines and doesn't need registration to be able to see them.

Yes, this is always a good warning for posters here. One of the "improvements" we implemented on Awakenetwork was to create a private, password-protected space that is not publicly available.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/9/20 3:21 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Oh, I know, but I'm pretty sure she is occupied with other things than reading her crazy mom's posts here. If she chooses to read, she is welcome to do so. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 1:43 AM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
SCHISM!!!!!! SChismmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

emoticon
Does this sound about right?

First big schism was the actual freedom debacle which frightened off a bunch of original dharma underground folk from the DhO. 1st inklings were with Tarin talking about it in those classic "Get it done" audios taken at Daniel's Ranch. Then Tarin goes and presumably gets it done along with another DhO member, ruffling the originals' feathers (minus Daniel). They then go off elsewhere. It gets worse  as Tarin and Co frighten everyone with their huge "shift" in the tone of their communications presumably giving off an emotionless robotic air....though this was argued to be people's own rose-tinted glasses making them react to those same communications. .....and thus Kenneth moves away and KFD is formed for the first lot of DhO refugees. . I think I missed this first main schism as I was busy working on  getting to 1st path, 2009 was it? I think I got the instructions I needed  from MTCB and the early 2008/2009 Dho just before this first major schism. I stopped reading the site and just practiced. Glad I did as I'm sure I would have been swayed by all the fuss.

Then I get to 1st path, joined KFD in early 2010. as well as still being at the DhO, but both had very different flavours back then. KFD had a lot of hand-holding and moderation, DhO was truly a free-or-all. Then some developments within the year of 2010, Kenneth gets into "direct mode" in September I think of 2010,  loosely linked to actual freedom instructions, during or after Daniel's actual freedome experiments spawned by Tarin's presumed success (he was later cut loose from the Actual Freedom Trust site due to disclaiming actual freedom-another story. It truly is like Days of Our Lives).

This last radical shift in Kenneth's focus forced those in disagreement's hand as there was a major reaction to the tempering of what was perceived as "emotions/affect" . Thus they created their Dharma Refugee forum. I was on board at the time with Kenneth's 20 path system (hehe) so i remained with KFD. 

However, shortly after, I also had my own mini-personal schism with Kenneth because there was a backflipping on "direct mode" and a be  all bodhisatva phase and I was still into what I was doing, so I had to remain at my own refugee island on The Hamilton Project blog.  It was probably only coming from where we both found ourselves perceptually, dealing with fresh baselines and no idea how to properly act from them. Pure hubris. With the passing of time and falling down a slow rolling descent down the  rabbit hole (and having kids), it has all mellowed and I have no idea where that "energy" came from. So long ago now. If Kenneth reads this, sorry for being an arsehole. I was missing that "chip" that told me I was being one in the heat of that fresh basline shift "honeymoon" period. 

Did I miss anything? Where there any other mini-schisms? 

2 cents

Nick
Edited a few times for typos and extra info and sentence flow

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 1:31 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Thankyou for the resumé, Nikolai! Now I don't have to browse through the first decade of Days of our lives. 

That's actually not any schism I would happen to blindly walk into. I'd like to keep my feelings, please. However, it does explain why people here are so prone to misinterpret stuff as wanting to get rid of feelings. I think some people made karma during that schism. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 4:13 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
shargrol:
SCHISM!!!!!! SChismmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

emoticon
Does this sound about right?

First big schism was the actual freedom debacle which frightened off a bunch of original dharma underground folk from the DhO. 1st inklings were with Tarin talking about it in those classic "Get it done" audios taken at Daniel's Ranch. Then Tarin goes and presumably gets it done along with another DhO member, ruffling the originals' feathers (minus Daniel). They then go off elsewhere. It gets worse  as Tarin and Co frighten everyone with their huge "shift" in the tone of their communications presumably giving off an emotionless robotic air....though this was argued to be people's own rose-tinted glasses making them react to those same communications. .....and thus Kenneth moves away and KFD is formed for the first lot of DhO refugees. . I think I missed this first main schism as I was busy working on  getting to 1st path, 2009 was it? I think I got the instructions I needed  from MTCB and the early 2008/2009 Dho just before this first major schism. I stopped reading the site and just practiced. Glad I did as I'm sure I would have been swayed by all the fuss.

Then I get to 1st path, joined KFD in early 2010. as well as still being at the DhO, but both had very different flavours back then. KFD had a lot of hand-holding and moderation, DhO was truly a free-or-all. Then some developments within the year of 2010, Kenneth gets into "direct mode" in September I think of 2010,  loosely linked to actual freedom instructions, during or after Daniel's actual freedome experiments spawned by Tarin's presumed success (he was later cut loose from the Actual Freedom Trust site due to disclaiming actual freedom-another story. It truly is like Days of Our Lives).

This last radical shift in Kenneth's focus forced those in disagreement's hand as there was a major reaction to the tempering of what was perceived as "emotions/affect" . Thus they created their Dharma Refugee forum. I was on board at the time with Kenneth's 20 path system (hehe) so i remained with KFD. 

However, shortly after, I also had my own mini-personal schism with Kenneth because there was a backflipping on "direct mode" and a be  all bodhisatva phase and I was still into what I was doing, so I had to remain at my own refugee island on The Hamilton Project blog.  It was probably only coming from where we both found ourselves perceptually, dealing with fresh baselines and no idea how to properly act from them. Pure hubris. With the passing of time and falling down a slow rolling descent down the  rabbit hole (and having kids), it has all mellowed and I have no idea where that "energy" came from. So long ago now. If Kenneth reads this, sorry for being an arsehole. I was missing that "chip" that told me I was being one in the heat of that fresh basline shift "honeymoon" period. 

Did I miss anything? Where there any other mini-schisms? 

2 cents

Nick
Edited a few times for typos and extra info and sentence flow
Thank Nikolai, you hero of historical source material, you blessing on dharma scholars of the future as they sort out our wreckage into sects and schismatic cadres. This is what I was begging  Chris and Shagrol for, but they are both too nice these days, apparently, to feed a dirt-craving lowlife like me. Whereas you, who appear to have achieved a high degree of Niceness as well, without clinging to the state, of course, have given this lowlife dirt-eater a feast here. Thank you, honestly. As a cradle member of a schismatic Jewish sect, i know the horrors of fratricide all too well, over 2000 years of it that make these more recent fractal iterations look like a playground. Plus, your heartfelt words to Kenneth F. were themselves worth the price of admission here (well, it was free, but you know what i mean). I hear all you old school(s) guy saying the same thing here, with humor and with love.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 4:22 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
shargrol:
SCHISM!!!!!! SChismmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

emoticon
Does this sound about right?

First big schism was the actual freedom debacle which frightened off a bunch of original dharma underground folk from the DhO. 1st inklings were with Tarin talking about it in those classic "Get it done" audios taken at Daniel's Ranch. Then Tarin goes and presumably gets it done along with another DhO member, ruffling the originals' feathers (minus Daniel). They then go off elsewhere. It gets worse  as Tarin and Co frighten everyone with their huge "shift" in the tone of their communications presumably giving off an emotionless robotic air....though this was argued to be people's own rose-tinted glasses making them react to those same communications. .....and thus Kenneth moves away and KFD is formed for the first lot of DhO refugees. . I think I missed this first main schism as I was busy working on  getting to 1st path, 2009 was it? I think I got the instructions I needed  from MTCB and the early 2008/2009 Dho just before this first major schism. I stopped reading the site and just practiced. Glad I did as I'm sure I would have been swayed by all the fuss.

Then I get to 1st path, joined KFD in early 2010. as well as still being at the DhO, but both had very different flavours back then. KFD had a lot of hand-holding and moderation, DhO was truly a free-or-all. Then some developments within the year of 2010, Kenneth gets into "direct mode" in September I think of 2010,  loosely linked to actual freedom instructions, during or after Daniel's actual freedome experiments spawned by Tarin's presumed success (he was later cut loose from the Actual Freedom Trust site due to disclaiming actual freedom-another story. It truly is like Days of Our Lives).

This last radical shift in Kenneth's focus forced those in disagreement's hand as there was a major reaction to the tempering of what was perceived as "emotions/affect" . Thus they created their Dharma Refugee forum. I was on board at the time with Kenneth's 20 path system (hehe) so i remained with KFD. 

However, shortly after, I also had my own mini-personal schism with Kenneth because there was a backflipping on "direct mode" and a be  all bodhisatva phase and I was still into what I was doing, so I had to remain at my own refugee island on The Hamilton Project blog.  It was probably only coming from where we both found ourselves perceptually, dealing with fresh baselines and no idea how to properly act from them. Pure hubris. With the passing of time and falling down a slow rolling descent down the  rabbit hole (and having kids), it has all mellowed and I have no idea where that "energy" came from. So long ago now. If Kenneth reads this, sorry for being an arsehole. I was missing that "chip" that told me I was being one in the heat of that fresh basline shift "honeymoon" period. 

Did I miss anything? Where there any other mini-schisms? 

2 cents

Nick
Edited a few times for typos and extra info and sentence flow


You missed only a tiny detail likey of no importance whatsoever emoticon Thanks to me joining The Hamilton Project back in ... 2011 I think you decided to create FORUM RULES emoticon (sorry for my bleedthroughs and for provoking you over at the Vipassanaforum.net which was earlier durng my arrogant A&P faze).

Ah that Dhamma Drama emoticon 

p.s. hope you and your family are doing well!

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 6:28 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:


Does this sound about right?

First big schism was the actual freedom debacle which frightened off a bunch of original dharma underground folk from the DhO. 1st inklings were with Tarin talking about it in those classic "Get it done" audios taken at Daniel's Ranch. Then Tarin goes and presumably gets it done along with another DhO member, ruffling the originals' feathers (minus Daniel). They then go off elsewhere. It gets worse  as Tarin and Co frighten everyone with their huge "shift" in the tone of their communications presumably giving off an emotionless robotic air....though this was argued to be people's own rose-tinted glasses making them react to those same communications. .....and thus Kenneth moves away and KFD is formed for the first lot of DhO refugees. . I think I missed this first main schism as I was busy working on  getting to 1st path, 2009 was it? I think I got the instructions I needed  from MTCB and the early 2008/2009 Dho just before this first major schism. I stopped reading the site and just practiced. Glad I did as I'm sure I would have been swayed by all the fuss.

Then I get to 1st path, joined KFD in early 2010. as well as still being at the DhO, but both had very different flavours back then. KFD had a lot of hand-holding and moderation, DhO was truly a free-or-all. Then some developments within the year of 2010, Kenneth gets into "direct mode" in September I think of 2010,  loosely linked to actual freedom instructions, during or after Daniel's actual freedome experiments spawned by Tarin's presumed success (he was later cut loose from the Actual Freedom Trust site due to disclaiming actual freedom-another story. It truly is like Days of Our Lives).

This last radical shift in Kenneth's focus forced those in disagreement's hand as there was a major reaction to the tempering of what was perceived as "emotions/affect" . Thus they created their Dharma Refugee forum. I was on board at the time with Kenneth's 20 path system (hehe) so i remained with KFD. 

However, shortly after, I also had my own mini-personal schism with Kenneth because there was a backflipping on "direct mode" and a be  all bodhisatva phase and I was still into what I was doing, so I had to remain at my own refugee island on The Hamilton Project blog.  It was probably only coming from where we both found ourselves perceptually, dealing with fresh baselines and no idea how to properly act from them. Pure hubris. With the passing of time and falling down a slow rolling descent down the  rabbit hole (and having kids), it has all mellowed and I have no idea where that "energy" came from. So long ago now. If Kenneth reads this, sorry for being an arsehole. I was missing that "chip" that told me I was being one in the heat of that fresh basline shift "honeymoon" period. 

Did I miss anything? Where there any other mini-schisms? 

2 cents

Nick
Edited a few times for typos and extra info and sentence flow
Great summary!The only other aspects I can recall:

Relentless "recruiting" of DhO dark night yogi's by the AF crowd.  Desparate people with serious meditation/mental health problems being told that AF was going to be their solution/salvation... That was hard to watch.

Bless Kenneth's heart he was the voice of reason during this time and this was why KFD was so important in many of our lives. He championed boring old Mahasi-style meditation and "consistent, not heroic, practice". Truly a lifesaver that rose to the moment..

There was also a phase, I think during KFD and pre-DFRC, when Kenneth was going in the "I have no thoughts ala Gary Weber" direction. But I think that might have been what you were refering to as the "emotions/affect" phase.

But that's it. Really good summary.

What a wild ride (yet tame by other standards). And I think all of the participants have hung out together in various venues in recent years. It really does seem to have been mended over. Not necessarily agreement on everything, but an acceptance that everyone has their own flavor of dharma. No dharma clones in practical dharma ----  and really there are no dharma clones anywhere -- if you look at the key players in different monestaries/sanghas all the teachers are different from their teachers. That's just how this stuff works.

There is an idea that I think about a lot.... I''m pretty sure it's in Trungpa's Spiritual Materialism... And it talks about how when you first meet a teacher it's like hunting, you're looking everywhere to find something so elusive. Where is the True Teacher? Then you think you've found the teacher and it is like seduction, you try to get them "on your side", you flatter them, you try to become the best student ever. Then you are working with the teacher and it is like a hot fire on a cold day, you can't stand too close or you'll get burned and you can't leave because then you feel like you'll die in the cold. This is when the teacher is leading you to your own shadow side and you are seeing all of your reactive patterns, resistances, paranoias, and blind spots. It sucks, and you want to leave, but it's also where the real work occurs. The guru doesn't need to "keep you there", it's really the deeper part of you that know that practice is ultimately making life better.  Then the guru/teacher starts becoming more of a human and you finally get that the teacher is a human and a student of life just like you. They have some insights but they aren't perfect.... And then as you gain your own understanding, the teacher is like a rock on the side of the road. You don't even turn your head to look. It's just a rock on the side of the road. So what? It's very interesting to see how a version of this played out here in the West in the early 2000s.

May we all learn from other's mistakes, make our own mistakes, and share our experiences so that other's can learn from our mistakes. No one is perfect. The life of a zen master is one mistake after another.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 6:39 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Is that where some of the people who have made great pointers in the past went to? Fell into the void of the schism? Example - I read Tarin Greco's comments on things because I find her presentation to be accessible to me. Her outline of accessing jhanas was rad. Haven't seen a recent comment in a long, long time. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 6:57 AM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Nikolai .:


Does this sound about right?

First big schism was the actual freedom debacle which frightened off a bunch of original dharma underground folk from the DhO. 1st inklings were with Tarin talking about it in those classic "Get it done" audios taken at Daniel's Ranch. Then Tarin goes and presumably gets it done along with another DhO member, ruffling the originals' feathers (minus Daniel). They then go off elsewhere. It gets worse  as Tarin and Co frighten everyone with their huge "shift" in the tone of their communications presumably giving off an emotionless robotic air....though this was argued to be people's own rose-tinted glasses making them react to those same communications. .....and thus Kenneth moves away and KFD is formed for the first lot of DhO refugees. . I think I missed this first main schism as I was busy working on  getting to 1st path, 2009 was it? I think I got the instructions I needed  from MTCB and the early 2008/2009 Dho just before this first major schism. I stopped reading the site and just practiced. Glad I did as I'm sure I would have been swayed by all the fuss.

Then I get to 1st path, joined KFD in early 2010. as well as still being at the DhO, but both had very different flavours back then. KFD had a lot of hand-holding and moderation, DhO was truly a free-or-all. Then some developments within the year of 2010, Kenneth gets into "direct mode" in September I think of 2010,  loosely linked to actual freedom instructions, during or after Daniel's actual freedome experiments spawned by Tarin's presumed success (he was later cut loose from the Actual Freedom Trust site due to disclaiming actual freedom-another story. It truly is like Days of Our Lives).

This last radical shift in Kenneth's focus forced those in disagreement's hand as there was a major reaction to the tempering of what was perceived as "emotions/affect" . Thus they created their Dharma Refugee forum. I was on board at the time with Kenneth's 20 path system (hehe) so i remained with KFD. 

However, shortly after, I also had my own mini-personal schism with Kenneth because there was a backflipping on "direct mode" and a be  all bodhisatva phase and I was still into what I was doing, so I had to remain at my own refugee island on The Hamilton Project blog.  It was probably only coming from where we both found ourselves perceptually, dealing with fresh baselines and no idea how to properly act from them. Pure hubris. With the passing of time and falling down a slow rolling descent down the  rabbit hole (and having kids), it has all mellowed and I have no idea where that "energy" came from. So long ago now. If Kenneth reads this, sorry for being an arsehole. I was missing that "chip" that told me I was being one in the heat of that fresh basline shift "honeymoon" period. 

Did I miss anything? Where there any other mini-schisms? 

2 cents

Nick
Edited a few times for typos and extra info and sentence flow
Great summary!The only other aspects I can recall:

Relentless "recruiting" of DhO dark night yogi's by the AF crowd.  Desparate people with serious meditation/mental health problems being told that AF was going to be their solution/salvation... That was hard to watch.

Bless Kenneth's heart he was the voice of reason during this time and this was why KFD was so important in many of our lives. He championed boring old Mahasi-style meditation and "consistent, not heroic, practice". Truly a lifesaver that rose to the moment..

There was also a phase, I think during KFD and pre-DFRC, when Kenneth was going in the "I have no thoughts ala Gary Weber" direction. But I think that might have been what you were refering to as the "emotions/affect" phase.

But that's it. Really good summary.

What a wild ride (yet tame by other standards). And I think all of the participants have hung out together in various venues in recent years. It really does seem to have been mended over. Not necessarily agreement on everything, but an acceptance that everyone has their own flavor of dharma. No dharma clones in practical dharma ----  and really there are no dharma clones anywhere -- if you look at the key players in different monestaries/sanghas all the teachers are different from their teachers. That's just how this stuff works.

There is an idea that I think about a lot.... I''m pretty sure it's in Trungpa's Spiritual Materialism... And it talks about how when you first meet a teacher it's like hunting, you're looking everywhere to find something so elusive. Where is the True Teacher? Then you think you've found the teacher and it is like seduction, you try to get them "on your side", you flatter them, you try to become the best student ever. Then you are working with the teacher and it is like a hot fire on a cold day, you can't stand too close or you'll get burned and you can't leave because then you feel like you'll die in the cold. This is when the teacher is leading you to your own shadow side and you are seeing all of your reactive patterns, resistances, paranoias, and blind spots. It sucks, and you want to leave, but it's also where the real work occurs. The guru doesn't need to "keep you there", it's really the deeper part of you that know that practice is ultimately making life better.  Then the guru/teacher starts becoming more of a human and you finally get that the teacher is a human and a student of life just like you. They have some insights but they aren't perfect.... And then as you gain your own understanding, the teacher is like a rock on the side of the road. You don't even turn your head to look. It's just a rock on the side of the road. So what? It's very interesting to see how a version of this played out here in the West in the early 2000s.

May we all learn from other's mistakes, make our own mistakes, and share our experiences so that other's can learn from our mistakes. No one is perfect. The life of a zen master is one mistake after another.

Fuck you, Chris Marti, if all these carried-over boxes within boxes trouble your lazy ass. This thing is pure gold and should have a place in the scriptures that eventually get written by some future schismatic sect on the ashes of our failures and fuckups. This is just fucking beautiful, and its own kind of education. Thank God Pepe is immortalizing shargrol already. You guys in that crew can all take a fucking number, i think Pepe's working on Daniel now. Kenneth Folke may need a Pepe. I just love this stuff. I wish that schismatic genius Jew St. Paul could read it, in his rush to bring the Greeks to the Torah of Jesus. (and soeaking of Paul, remember, since i started out harsh here, not i, but Chris in me.)

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 7:26 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Hi Dusko, 

Haha, I do remember that short lived period. You had a bit of a rollercoaster ride on that Vipassna forum too if I recall. 

The HP Forum was also quite short lived. Funny how things played out. For the life of me now, i can't bring myself to participate in any divisiveness these days. That urge just doesnt seem to want to arise any more. Plus, my goal-orientatedness has shifted from "get somehwere" to "I have to clean, dress and feed my 3 years old." 

My family are alive and so far virus free.
Hoping yours are as well. Cute baby!


You missed only a tiny detail likey of no importance whatsoever emoticon Thanks to me joining The Hamilton Project back in ... 2011 I think you decided to create FORUM RULES emoticon (sorry for my bleedthroughs and for provoking you over at the Vipassanaforum.net which was earlier durng my arrogant A&P faze).

Ah that Dhamma Drama emoticon 

p.s. hope you and your family are doing well!




RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 7:25 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Did I miss anything? Where there any other mini-schisms? 

No, Nick - that's just marvelous work you did there! I think we should just appoint you " The DhO/KFD/DFRC/AN Historian" and be done with it.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 7:34 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Did I miss anything? Where there any other mini-schisms? 

No, Nick - that's just marvelous work you did there! I think we should just appoint you " The DhO/KFD/DFRC/AN Historian" and be done with it.

That's what I want, for some poor bastard, the one with something close to the shittiest karma, to take on the "DhO/KFD/DFRC/AN Historian" job. That's how scriptures get written, somebody tells the story, which pisses off somebody else, who tells the story with his own spin, and so on. The canon here is in the best place a canon can be, MCBT first edition as an old testament, MCBT2 as a new one. The first historian, in this metaphor, is the equivalent of Mark, the first evangelist. The good news is that the first one can be relatively straightforward--- Mark is notoriously terse. So whoever it is--- I vote for Nikolai as well--- grab the job now before somebdy else gets in and complicates even the Synoptic Gospels of Pragmatic Dharma. And don't even get me started on the metaphorical equivalent of the Gospel of John, or Paul's epistles. I don't want to live to see such things again, but I'm committted to closing down the bar in hell, so at least i'll have something to read, to keep me pissed off enough to keep the flame at a working temperature.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 7:34 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Coda --

I made my peace with Kenneth Folk a long time ago. I actually flew to Sacramento and drove up to Lake Tahoe where he was "hosting" a private retreat for his Silicon Valley patrons. I took him to dinner (after he obtained permission from some PayPal billionaire). It was a great little restaurant up on a cliff overlooking the lake. It was sunset. While we were drinking a few beers and some wine, we looked at each other and had a sort of misty-eyed moment, and that was that. If Kenneth ever reads this I'm sure he'll recall almost all of it.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 7:42 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Fuck you, Chris Marti, if all these carried-over boxes within boxes trouble your lazy ass.

This place is finally starting to feel like home.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 7:52 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Fuck you, Chris Marti, if all these carried-over boxes within boxes trouble your lazy ass.

This place is finally starting to feel like home.

emoticon 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 8:04 AM as a reply to shargrol.
There was also a phase, I think during KFD and pre-DFRC, when Kenneth was going in the "I have no thoughts ala Gary Weber" direction. But I think that might have been what you were refering to as the "emotions/affect" phase.

I have to correct you on this one, shargrol. Kenneth was never one to claim no thoughts - he just tried to get to a "no emotions" state for about two years. Kenneth Folk and Gary Weber went at each other with swords and mace. Kenneth challenged Gary Weber's "I have no thoughts" mantra. Gary got defensive and shot back, and several rounds of back and forth ensued.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 8:11 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
There was also a phase, I think during KFD and pre-DFRC, when Kenneth was going in the "I have no thoughts ala Gary Weber" direction. But I think that might have been what you were refering to as the "emotions/affect" phase.

I have to correct you on this one, shargrol. Kenneth was never one to claim no thoughts - he just tried to get to a "no emotions" state for about two years. Kenneth Folk and Gary Weber went at each other with swords and mace. Kenneth challenged Gary Weber's "I have no thoughts" mantra. Gary got defensive and shot back, and several rounds of back and forth ensued.
I'm telling you, guys, this is how it really works. You are making the evangelist St. Nikolai's (if he's stupid enough to take on the historian gig) work easier for him with every nuance here. He can just type up this thread, a la pepe, with the occasional judicious edit or cut-and-paste, if you guys are scrupulous in this kind of time-wasting penny ante detail fractal-doodoo crap.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 8:31 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
There is a fast way to the no emotions stage, I have heard: lobotomy. It probably takes away some sense of agency as well.

Why on earth would anyone want that? What kinds of emotions did all those people have to deal with in order for that to be appealing? It must have been horrible. Poor bastards! I have been depressed to the extent of experiencing no feelings at all. That was no life.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 8:33 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Take that post back! Hurry! Jesus Christ Almighty - are you trying to start another schism???

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 8:40 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
If I ever go all demi-god and embrace my hubris instead of trying to let it self-liberate as discretely as possible, I will come up with something better than going to the history as the lobotomy guru. Somebody else would have to take on that one. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 8:44 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Alright, you've obviously ignored my exhortations to stop this nonsense before we have another shit show on our hands. It won't be long before you run off in a huff and start your own dharma message board.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 8:49 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I had my own message board before I even got here. I'll just have to spread my dharma there and kick out everyone that still approaches it as a haven for autistic people. Moahahahaha! emoticon

By the way, we have much better smileys there. Maybe something for Papa Che and Tim? Can I tempt you?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 8:49 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
See?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 8:51 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I don't know. I would have to ask the other half of my brain.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 9:03 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I am joining Linda's schismatic sect. Please schedule my lobotomy as soon as possible. Part of the reason is those pushups that fucking megalomaniac Marti had me doing, part because, well, let's face it, Linda is a demi-goddess.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 9:04 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Oh yeah, and better smileys. The smileys here suck, she's right. Papa Che, you with me? And could you go first on the lobotomy thing, maybe?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 9:06 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I don't know. I would have to ask the other half of my brain.


My demi-goddess is not only a master of pure logic, she is fucking hilarious. Hasta la vista, losers.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 9:37 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
It is Goddess to you, human. Demi... Pfffffsssshhhhhh! 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 9:49 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
It is Goddess to you, human. Demi... Pfffffsssshhhhhh! 

I beg forgiveness at your lotus feet, Goddess beyond all description, Ma Lobotomy-ji.

(.tnemeerga deniarb-flah ,detraeh-elohw ni sdon niarb ym fo edis dnah-thgir eht) 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 12:25 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
This schism thread-jack is really hitting home what the media misses when it tells stories about meditation (including books like Why Buddhism is True IMHO).

The general tone of most reporting is: science is revealing that something is actually happening in the brains of meditators, and look at the brains of these superhuman meditators when you put them in MRI's. Wowee! Perhaps enlightenment is real...

I would like to see more reporting that shows what is reported in this thread (and what is clear the closer that you look) that awakening is very, very real, and that advanced practicioners are very, very human.

Having grown up LDS Mormon it very much reminds me of reading Rough Stone Rolling, seeing the founders of Mormonism reported as being very human and that revelation being totally exhilarating.

I have this theory that religion is an innate part of humans, just like language or morality and we tilt towards that whether we are aware of it or not. There is this tilt in mainstream culture (likely unintentional) to take the form of religion and I feel like much of what I read about meditation in "reputable" news sources feels like it wants to find saints, mythology and salvation in the story. The only difference is that science now takes the place of God in anointing the chosen ones.

So yeah, I like the history too. I like the gossip, the drama and knowing that humans are behind the process of the dharma just as much as kharma.

BTW, maybe we should retitle this thread:

HISTORY OF THE GREAT SCHISM(s) and Chris Marti's Logs

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 12:35 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Having grown up LDS Mormon it very much reminds me of reading Rough Stone Rolling, seeing the founders of Mormonism reported as being very human and that revelation being totally exhilarating.

Ha! I was born in Park City, UT. Father LDS, mother Episcopal. I don't think Joseph Smith wanted you to know he was human. Brigham Young? Maybe.

emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 12:48 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Wow. Small world. It's funny how often I run into others with a Mormon connection in the dharma world.

Reading about the A&P in MCTB made me understand the First Vision in a way I never had before. For all the good that can be said of the various meditative attainments I think the A&P has probably played the biggest role in shaping the history of world religion.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/10/20 1:02 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
That is probably very true. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/11/20 1:18 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
There is a fast way to the no emotions stage, I have heard: lobotomy. It probably takes away some sense of agency as well.

Why on earth would anyone want that? What kinds of emotions did all those people have to deal with in order for that to be appealing? It must have been horrible. Poor bastards! I have been depressed to the extent of experiencing no feelings at all. That was no life.

Still wondering about this, why so many people, some of them fairly realized, felt (!) that emotions were such a problem that they would rather get rid of them than learn to deal with them skillfully. I mean, emotions are key to human experience AND they are "just" emotions. There's nothing dangerous about them per se. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/11/20 3:29 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
There is a fast way to the no emotions stage, I have heard: lobotomy. It probably takes away some sense of agency as well.

Why on earth would anyone want that? What kinds of emotions did all those people have to deal with in order for that to be appealing? It must have been horrible. Poor bastards! I have been depressed to the extent of experiencing no feelings at all. That was no life.

Still wondering about this, why so many people, some of them fairly realized, felt (!) that emotions were such a problem that they would rather get rid of them than learn to deal with them skillfully. I mean, emotions are key to human experience AND they are "just" emotions. There's nothing dangerous about them per se. 

What. a. Thread. Chris's practice blogs about the seeking for what little bit you're missing, that someone copied in above is solid gold, first of all. I could write volumes about, "What the fuck else do I have to see through? I've seen it all! What's left?!?!"

More tidbits ON THE SCHISM. I only can speak to the DhO side of it. I was never on KFD. I joined DhO back in 2010 and it's the only board I've been on. For no real reason. It just is. I was around when the Actual Freedom stuff was in full swing and lots and lots of folks jumped on the bandwagon. I was one of them. Some of us may have been perpetual Dark Nighters. Others, like me, were curious to see what it was about and open to experimentation.

I also think there was not an insignificant number who were in the no man's land of the middle paths, starting to see glimpses of "emptiness" and saw Actualism as some extension of that. Especially 3rd pathers when things become more obviously unbound in daily life. There was some Dzogchen influence starting to pop up on the board around that time too, so I think they felt like the whole "luminosity/emptiness" stuff from Dzogchen could align with it. Very easy to slip into what was called the Pure Consciousness Experience from there, which is the supposedly affectless state when everything glimmers and is utterly lucid and immediate without a center point - this is what maybe seemed aligned with the luminosity stuff. People who thought they were already post 4th path were talking alot about how there was more to be realized after finishing 4th. They figured Actualism was the way to that more. Whether these folks were actually post-4th path or lost somewhere in 3rd path was a mystery at the time (and still maybe is). 

I ditched Actualism after a while after being bothered by abovementioned robotness of some of the folks who claimed they got AF. I also think Richard, the dude who started the AF Trust seems like a total fucking cult leader. He is incredibly rigid in his thinking in an all or nothing way, which I'm not a fan of. I also wondered if there was possibly some creeper shit going on with the women who were over there with him. There was definite guru worship happening on the part of his "followers". One or more of them were actually people who left cults in the past, so it doesn't seem too far off they'd get sucked into that world again if they hadn't resolved their trauma from it, or all sorts of other reasons.

Anyways, I think over time alot of people saw the writing on the wall and stopped practicing in the actualism way. I left DhO somewhere around 2015, but was already back to practicing insight & jhana by then. I recently joined up again and it's great to be back y'all. emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/11/20 3:38 AM as a reply to Steph S.
Thanks for shedding some light on the mystery! I'm glad you weren't caught up in it. I can understand wanting to experiment. That doesn't seem to go very well with rigidness, though.

I am in the middle paths and have those glimpses you mentioned. However, for me that has nothing to do with ditching emotions. I don't feel the need to stabilize anything either. I'm enjoying the transformative dance or lovemaking between emptiness and existence.

I don't understand why I still haven't gotten around to reading Chris's journal. Everybody says it's gold and it has been on my reading list for a long time. I tend to prefer reading about where people are in their practice in the present, I guess. 

I'm glad you came back and that there is a lot of activity here nowadays. The forum needs more variety than my spamming. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/11/20 5:23 AM as a reply to Steph S.
Steph S:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
There is a fast way to the no emotions stage, I have heard: lobotomy. It probably takes away some sense of agency as well.

Why on earth would anyone want that? What kinds of emotions did all those people have to deal with in order for that to be appealing? It must have been horrible. Poor bastards! I have been depressed to the extent of experiencing no feelings at all. That was no life.

Still wondering about this, why so many people, some of them fairly realized, felt (!) that emotions were such a problem that they would rather get rid of them than learn to deal with them skillfully. I mean, emotions are key to human experience AND they are "just" emotions. There's nothing dangerous about them per se. 

What. a. Thread. Chris's practice blogs about the seeking for what little bit you're missing, that someone copied in above is solid gold, first of all. I could write volumes about, "What the fuck else do I have to see through? I've seen it all! What's left?!?!"

More tidbits ON THE SCHISM. I only can speak to the DhO side of it. I was never on KFD. I joined DhO back in 2010 and it's the only board I've been on. For no real reason. It just is. I was around when the Actual Freedom stuff was in full swing and lots and lots of folks jumped on the bandwagon. I was one of them. Some of us may have been perpetual Dark Nighters. Others, like me, were curious to see what it was about and open to experimentation.

I also think there was not an insignificant number who were in the no man's land of the middle paths, starting to see glimpses of "emptiness" and saw Actualism as some extension of that. Especially 3rd pathers when things become more obviously unbound in daily life. There was some Dzogchen influence starting to pop up on the board around that time too, so I think they felt like the whole "luminosity/emptiness" stuff from Dzogchen could align with it. Very easy to slip into what was called the Pure Consciousness Experience from there, which is the supposedly affectless state when everything glimmers and is utterly lucid and immediate without a center point - this is what maybe seemed aligned with the luminosity stuff. People who thought they were already post 4th path were talking alot about how there was more to be realized after finishing 4th. They figured Actualism was the way to that more. Whether these folks were actually post-4th path or lost somewhere in 3rd path was a mystery at the time (and still maybe is). 

I ditched Actualism after a while after being bothered by abovementioned robotness of some of the folks who claimed they got AF. I also think Richard, the dude who started the AF Trust seems like a total fucking cult leader. He is incredibly rigid in his thinking in an all or nothing way, which I'm not a fan of. I also wondered if there was possibly some creeper shit going on with the women who were over there with him. There was definite guru worship happening on the part of his "followers". One or more of them were actually people who left cults in the past, so it doesn't seem too far off they'd get sucked into that world again if they hadn't resolved their trauma from it, or all sorts of other reasons.

Anyways, I think over time alot of people saw the writing on the wall and stopped practicing in the actualism way. I left DhO somewhere around 2015, but was already back to practicing insight & jhana by then. I recently joined up again and it's great to be back y'all. emoticon

Steph, thank you for making this great thread greater with your own historical contribution. It's a sort of unfolding miracle, really, the thread turning into a magic story well, a fountain of grace and beauty, perspective, healing, forgiveness, and awesome actual nitty-gritty fascinating historical twists and turns of the sort that i am deeply into knowing, as a survivor of a few twists and turns myself. I do love the occasional lifted rug, to see what really got swept under there, and when, and why, and also to see how the sweepers are doing this far down the line. The sweepers here all seem like a bunch of softies, frankly. They've all got the heart disease, in the sense of actually having a heart, which appears to have been treated at certain points by certain schismatic splinters in the general crashing of the carpentry as fatal. (hint: it is. They all seem to have accepted that, as far as I can tell. The Buddha died too, that beautiful heart stopped beating. We are still trying to make sense of that all.)

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/11/20 8:47 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Still wondering about this, why so many people, some of them fairly realized, felt (!) that emotions were such a problem that they would rather get rid of them than learn to deal with them skillfully. I mean, emotions are key to human experience AND they are "just" emotions. There's nothing dangerous about them per se. 

Steph's comments aside, and folks like Steph aside (people who were suffering and investigated Actual Freedom as a potential way out of their suffering), I believe the primary motivation for achieving a zombie-like state here on DhO, back in about 2009, was testosterone. It was a few young men who thought that getting really, really, really waked up was the road to being better than. Waked up meant feeling nothing. Nothing. Actual Freedom just gave them a theology to back it up. "There's this dude, you know, on a boat in a swamp in Australia, and he was, you know, fully enlightened like the Buddha never even dreamed of."

Some folks like that would show up on KFD, too. Among them there was what I'd call an MO.

'Nuff said. Probably more than 'nuff.

I forgive them!

They all, as far as I know, came back and joined the rest of us human beings.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/11/20 8:56 AM as a reply to Steph S.
I ditched Actualism after a while after being bothered by abovementioned robotness of some of the folks who claimed they got AF. I also think Richard, the dude who started the AF Trust seems like a total fucking cult leader. He is incredibly rigid in his thinking in an all or nothing way, which I'm not a fan of. I also wondered if there was possibly some creeper shit going on with the women who were over there with him. There was definite guru worship happening on the part of his "followers". One or more of them were actually people who left cults in the past, so it doesn't seem too far off they'd get sucked into that world again if they hadn't resolved their trauma from it, or all sorts of other reasons.

That's well put, Steph. Glad I didn't have to say it emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/11/20 9:02 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I do love the occasional lifted rug, to see what really got swept under there, and when, and why, and also to see how the sweepers are doing this far down the line. The sweepers here all seem like a bunch of softies, frankly. They've all got the heart disease, in the sense of actually having a heart, which appears to have been treated at certain points by certain schismatic splinters in the general crashing of the carpentry as fatal. (hint: it is. They all seem to have accepted that, as far as I can tell. The Buddha died too, that beautiful heart stopped beating. We are still trying to make sense of that all.)

This is such a beautiful and poetic way to describe a soap opera! Thank you, Tim.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/11/20 11:38 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/11/20 11:55 AM as a reply to Steph S.
What happened with Richard and his cult in the end? Are they still active?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/11/20 1:40 PM as a reply to Griffin.
There's still a web page. Apparently part of the practice is reading text that is in the smallest font possible.


http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/11/20 1:45 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

I don't understand why I still haven't gotten around to reading Chris's journal. Everybody says it's gold and it has been on my reading list for a long time. I tend to prefer reading about where people are in their practice in the present, I guess. 
It's great in the same way most of Chris's comments are -- short and to the point.  

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/12/20 3:28 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
"[font="Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] As I was watching the world unfold the thought came: “Who is seeing this?” And then the universe revealed its luminosity as me and any thought of doing or being melted away. I got up after some indeterminate time with tears on my face. Again."

This seems soooo Post SE stuff or?  emoticon  I did try to read it but it turns out I have better things to do for now; PRACTICE! But I do hope Chris will be kind enough to throw me a bone of wisdom once in a while, depending on where I am on the Path emoticonemoticonemoticon 

I do wonder though how people read into stuff?
Lets say back in 2011 when I discovered MTCB1 I've read it all the way from start to DN. I did try and read more but soon realised I had no idea what he was talking about.

This is how I kept reading MTCB, only to the point where I was and applying useful suggestions from it. Would pick the book up ONLY when I felt some significant change to see if it was mentioned or not. 

I've found that once you knew about Maps one can easily just forget about them and return to the Map only during some unusual, new experiences and tease a tip or two out of it.

To me Maps were so helpful about telling me that my meditaion being shred to bits was very NORMAL emoticon "relax its all good, take a breather". If I didnt know about the maps god knows what would happen to my life, my practice etc ...





RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/12/20 3:42 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
And just to add;

Out of all the reading and describtion of stages and paths I ALWAYS seem to pick up only a word or a phraze/concept that could be of benefit. Im kind of a Post-It meditator;

(meditaton based on knowing but not obsessing about the Insight Maps)

1. Freestyle Note Aloud (K. Folk)
2. Acceptance (Ingram)
3. 1-10 notes per second (Ingram)
4. Note the Urges (shargrol gave me this one over at AN forum)
5. Stop using smileys!!! (Chris Marti)

This is Papa's ENTIRE practice.
Its kind of a "Keep It Simpe Stupid" emoticon I like it!

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/12/20 4:02 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
 Papa Che, you simple-ass prodigy of practice, what are you doing blabbing here at this hour about such things? Are you in Ireland or something? You've already sat your simple ass down for as long as you can stand? Get to work, Papa-ji! emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/12/20 4:04 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:


(meditaton based on knowing but not obsessing about the Insight Maps)


5. Stop using smileys!!! (Chris Marti)


Fuck you, Chris Marti, you fucking vipassana puritan. emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 1:36 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Hibiscus Kid:
http://awakenetwork.org/magazine/cmarti/70

Edit: The link is correct but the server is being finicky. It may take a few attempts to open. 


The link worked for me first time, HK, thank you so much. I'm only a short ways in, but am loving it. Chris, emoticon.
Chris, I've been struck lately by how key Kenneth Folke was for you, and also for Papa Che. Could you talk a little about the entwinement of his influence with MCTB, during this period? I am truly fascinated, fuck schism, everybody's forgiven everybody. i just love you guys and these stories are dharma gold.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:20 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I'll come back later today, after I do some real-life gig stuff, to weave some of that tale, but I can't violate any, um, confidences  emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:24 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I love it how you get people to talk, Tim! Finally there's some meat to the bones of all these not-selves that apparently and vividly exist.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:26 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
i know, or can imagine, but would truly love to see what can shake out of that tree legitimately and with metta.
emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:27 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Well, thank god this not-self has time later because the Kenneth Folk not-self and this one have a lot of history. Ups and downs, love and hate, life and death, friends and enemies, Tupac and ... oh, wrong story.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:28 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Looking forward to the right story. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:29 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
THIS not-self has fucking forever to listen.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:29 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
damn, you're fast, girl.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:32 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Looking forward to the right story. 

Tell me what this is, right now, so I don't disappoint you.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:33 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Haha! You telling me that I'm too fast for you while you are in the midst of mania has become my new cue that it's time for ADHD medication. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:33 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Looking forward to the right story. 

Tell me what this is, right now, so I don't disappoint you.

The right one is something I haven't heard before. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:35 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
One you haven't heard before? That might be a tall order. But I'll try.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:40 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Chris Marti:
Looking forward to the right story. 

Tell me what this is, right now, so I don't disappoint you.

The right one is something I haven't heard before. 
Quit kidding around, you two, you're scaring me.

The true fucking story!!! I want the true fucking story, or at least asmuch as decency and metta and the various legally binding non-diclosure contracts allow.
 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:40 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
By the way, I identify as non-binary. Godess felt surpringly okay, probably due to equal parts of vanity and fictional play. Girl... that makes it feel like I'm a con artist, for some reason. I never really understood gender, so socialization didn't quite work with me.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:41 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Oh, goody! 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:47 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
By the way, I identify as non-binary. Godess felt surpringly okay, probably due to equal parts of vanity and fictional play. Girl... that makes it feel like I'm a con artist, for some reason. I never really understood gender, so socialization didn't quite work with me.

school me as we go, uhhh, goddess. I have a brother who started as a sister, so i should be better. But that was a definite lapse into good old American South. Forgive me.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 6:50 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
No problem. I just wanted to be honest. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 10:22 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Also on board for the right story. I'll make the popcorn and pass it around. 

Linda - what pronouns do you use?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 10:27 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon Dayton:
There's still a web page. Apparently part of the practice is reading text that is in the smallest font possible.


http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/
How does one become Actually Free of truly hideous design? I'm not a UX/UI designer or a coder, but I have some ideas. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 12:09 PM as a reply to Steph S.
Steph S:
Also on board for the right story. I'll make the popcorn and pass it around. 

Linda - what pronouns do you use?

Any pronoun will do. I think a variation would delight me, but I don't know. I still haven't quite gotten used to "they", although that would probably be most correct (I sometimes refer to myself jokingly as the Polly Ester continuum). Thanks for caring! I don't have dysphoria. I just feel like the idea of me as a woman is incorrect, and it gets really awkward when people assign gendered expectations to me. In cases when people insist that I am a woman, or basically anything that I know I'm not, I sometimes feel gaslighted, and I really don't like that. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 12:20 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

Any pronoun will do. I think a variation would delight me, but I don't know. I still haven't quite gotten used to "they", although that would probably be most correct (I sometimes refer to myself jokingly as the Polly Ester continuum). Thanks for caring! I don't have dysphoria. I just feel like the idea of me as a woman is incorrect, and it gets really awkward when people assign gendered expectations to me. In cases when people insist that I am a woman, or basically anything that I know I'm not, I sometimes feel gaslighted, and I really don't like that. 

Cool, I gotchu. I don't know of a pronoun that really seems to fit me either. In all honesty, I'm also somewhere along the non-binary contiuum too. I can't say that any gender in particular feels like it really applies to me. Maybe genderfluidish, but realistically, gender is more like a "hmmm, does not compute" when I really search for it. Interestingly, this has become more so over time. I'm not at all trying to imply that it's some ideal place to be and everyone should get here... it's just something I've noticed that a specific gender has seemed to apply less and make less sense over the years. I have wondered if it was something kicking around before that became more clear with more practice and the more aspects of "myself" and patterns related to that have dropped away. It's hard to say. But there it is.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/17/20 12:38 PM as a reply to Steph S.
That's pretty much exactly how it is for me, except I have also for a long time suspected that it at least partly has to do with being autistic. Also, I came out as non-binary before I took up a systematic daily practice. The practice has made it less of an issue, as I suspect it's really the case that I saw the emptiness of gender early on.

There is a category called gendervague that was coined by neurodivergent non-binary people who did not fit into the available labels at the time. When I have to specify, I use that one. It is described as being at the intersection of neurodivergence and transgender. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/20/20 12:54 AM as a reply to agnostic.
I'll second that. I stumbled on the Awake Network site a couple of years ago. There's a lot of good material on that site including most of the Kenneth Folk Dharma postings. I sent the site admin some $$ last year. If you're reading this you might consider doing so as well. Even though the community has mostly moved on that material should remain accessible. Ideally in perpetuity, but on the internet all things are even more impermanent than elsewhere.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/20/20 4:24 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I'll come back later today, after I do some real-life gig stuff, to weave some of that tale, but I can't violate any, um, confidences  emoticon

We are still waiting...emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/23/20 11:55 AM as a reply to Griffin.
Griffin:
Chris Marti:
I'll come back later today, after I do some real-life gig stuff, to weave some of that tale, but I can't violate any, um, confidences  emoticon

We are still waiting...emoticon

and waiting . . . emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/23/20 11:58 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
What's this about again?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/23/20 12:01 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Ah, here we are:

Chris, I've been struck lately by how key Kenneth Folke was for you, and also for Papa Che. Could you talk a little about the entwinement of his influence with MCTB, during this period? I am truly fascinated, fuck schism, everybody's forgiven everybody. i just love you guys and these stories are dharma gold.



RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/23/20 12:05 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Ah, here we are:

Chris, I've been struck lately by how key Kenneth Folke was for you, and also for Papa Che. Could you talk a little about the entwinement of his influence with MCTB, during this period? I am truly fascinated, fuck schism, everybody's forgiven everybody. i just love you guys and these stories are dharma gold.



Chug, chug, chug!!!

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/23/20 1:57 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Kenneth Folk and I met right here on DhO. He just showed up one day and started posting and handing out advice. I wasn't sure who he was but I eventually learned he was a friend of Daniel Ingram. I believe they would both tell us that Kenneth is the person who got Daniel into the dharma. I think they both were in the music scene went hey met. Folk was a bass player and Daniel was a sound tech, or something like that.

Kenneth Folk had nothing to so with MCTB that I'm aware of. That's all Daniel.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/23/20 5:30 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
so, time-line--- what year are we talking about here?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/23/20 5:32 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Kenneth Folk and I met right here on DhO. He just showed up one day and started posting and handing out advice. I wasn't sure who he was but I eventually learned he was a friend of Daniel Ingram. I believe they would both tell us that Kenneth is the person who got Daniel into the dharma. I think they both were in the music scene went hey met. Folk was a bass player and Daniel was a sound tech, or something like that.

Kenneth Folk had nothing to so with MCTB that I'm aware of. That's all Daniel.
So, timeline--- what year was this, when you and KF met here? How long had you been here then?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 5:43 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Best guess: 2007, or thereabouts.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 6:01 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Best guess: 2007, or thereabouts.


How did you find out that KF was friends with Daniel?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 6:02 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Nope, I'm pretty sure it was 2008. That's because the weird stuff started here in 2009. That's when we (Kenneth, me) left DhO and started Kenneth Folk Dharma. I set up KFD from a cabin in Grand Teton National Park, while on vacation. DhO was on a system called "WetPaint" back then, so KFD was started as a separate WetPaint message board. (Funny- WetPaint was built as a gossip website and here all these nerdy dharma types are on their website full of message boards devoted to shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. But it was free.)

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 6:03 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
How did you find out that KF was friends with Daniel?

He told everyone, I think in his first post.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 6:07 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
How did you find out that KF was friends with Daniel?

He told everyone, I think in his first post.

And people no doubt replied? And Daniel was way more in the daily DhO loops at that time, right? What did he say when KF showed up?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 6:16 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Seriously, it wasn't a big deal.

This was a very different place then. There were some very seriously accomplished people who helped Daniel Ingram start this place: Vincent Horn (Buddhist Geeks Founder) and Hokai Sobol. The Buddhist Geeks podcast was a sort of sun around which a lot of things orbited, including this place. There were eventually Buddhist Geeks conferences, at which we all met, face to face. That's how I first met Kenneth, in person.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 6:21 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Seriously, it wasn't a big deal.

This was a very different place then. There were some very seriously accomplished people who helped Daniel Ingram start this place: Vincent Horn (Buddhist Geeks Founder) and Hokai Sobol. The Buddhist Geeks podcast was a sort of sun around which a lot of things orbited, including this place. There were eventually Buddhist Geeks conferences, at which we all met, face to face. That's how I first met Kenneth, in person.
It would be great if you could use reply-all for this stuff, until you feel it gets too unwieldy in any particular complexes of buddhas-within-buddha-bellies. Then anyone just coming along has as much story shit as the sack will hold, at any given point in the debriefing. It will also make the work-to-come of Pepe, or whoever gets stuck with the historian shit job, easier. Out of metta, then.

So the main action at that point was the Buddhist Geeks podcasts, and conferences? And was this mostly Bay Area folks at that point? where did you live, then? Daniel was in Alabama, right? Did he come to the conferences? Where did Kenneth live?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 6:31 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim, you've given me an idea. I'm going to talk to Mr. Folk about it. Meantime, please be patient.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 6:50 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Tim, you've given me an idea. I'm going to talk to Mr. Folk about it. Meantime, please be patient.


what, me, anything less than patient and accepting of all that arises?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 6:51 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 7:48 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:

Ah that controling of Urge emoticon I'm speechless. That dog is my new teacher! 
Waaaaait! Waaaaaait! Waaaaaaait! Attaboy emoticon 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 7:58 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
Chris Marti:

Ah that controling of Urge emoticon I'm speechless. That dog is my new teacher! 
Waaaaait! Waaaaaait! Waaaaaaait! Attaboy emoticon 

Hold your enthusiasm, please, Papaji, and keep a safe social distance, we're cooking with gas here!

That dog is ME, you [ugly personal attack deleted, per DhO forum rules]!

emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 6:13 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I hope the idea is to approach Michael Taft or Vince Horn about doing a podcast on the subject.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 6:27 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon Dayton:
I hope the idea is to approach Michael Taft or Vince Horn about doing a podcast on the subject.

I would have prefered writing a book about it, and each chapter of the book by one of these people. One chapter by Daniel, one by Kenneth, one by Chris... ;)

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/24/20 6:28 PM as a reply to Siavash.
I'd read that.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 8:49 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
I hope the idea is to approach Michael Taft or Vince Horn about doing a podcast on the subject.

Sorry Brandon, that's not what I'm thinking.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 8:51 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I hope the idea is to approach Michael Taft or Vince Horn about doing a podcast on the subject.

Sorry Brandon, that's not what I'm thinking.
Yeah, well, play a card, whatever you ARE thinking. Time is money, man, and poker is time.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 8:53 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I've got plenty of time. And I've got plenty of nothing. And nothin's plenty for me.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 8:59 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Now you're getting me curious. But I'm in no rush.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 9:19 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I've got plenty of time. And I've got plenty of nothing. And nothin's plenty for me.


yeah, yeah, we've all got fucking patient eons of profound acceptance, no hurry at all. But forever is BURNING, man!

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 9:21 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Now you're getting me curious. But I'm in no rush.
Well, i'm not in a rush either. But the thing is, Chris, when we pulled those baseball bats out yesterday and went off half-cocked hunting for bear, I kind of built up a little steam that i had to seal up again. I'd hate to see that vent on you, if you know what i mean, you [horrifying and remarkably explicit and graphic series of epithets deleted, as per DhO forum rules].

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 9:26 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 9:31 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
That's what my breathing feels like when I focus on letting the energy out through the crown chakra while in downward dog. It's subtler, though.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 9:36 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:

Nifty siddhi, there. Thank you. I feel much better now.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 9:38 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
That's what my breathing feels like when I focus on letting the energy out through the crown chakra while in downward dog. It's subtler, though.


well, "feels like to you." To the outside observer it is simply a gently spiraling pair of entwined threads, one gold and the other color optional.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 10:12 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
So the main action at that point was the Buddhist Geeks podcasts, and conferences? And was this mostly Bay Area folks at that point? where did you live, then? Daniel was in Alabama, right? Did he come to the conferences? Where did Kenneth live?

The Buddhist Geeks podcast is what brought all these disparate people together face to face once a year at the conferences. (DhO brought people "together" daily.) Vince Horn did the first one in 2011 (?) and there were about four more, once a year, until 2015(?). Most of the conferences were in Boulder. CO but the first one was in LA at a place called "University of the West." Attendees came from all over the place, globally. Hokai from Croatia, for example. My friend Gozen, a Zen master, came from Las Cruces, me from Chicago, and Ron Crouch, too.

Kenneth and I hit it off for some reason. I felt he was more approachable than Daniel. So we started talking here, then in e-mail, and in person at the conferences. I eventually asked him to coach/teach me. We talked on the phone once a week for a long time, and he helped me through the paths, second through fourth. This consisted primarily of Kenneth answering my questions and not so much telling me what practice to use. He was like a trail guide for me, letting me know what was likely going to come next and explaining what had been happening, providing me with a lot of context.



RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 10:31 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
So the main action at that point was the Buddhist Geeks podcasts, and conferences? And was this mostly Bay Area folks at that point? where did you live, then? Daniel was in Alabama, right? Did he come to the conferences? Where did Kenneth live?

The Buddhist Geeks podcast is what brought all these disparate people together face to face once a year at the conferences. DhO brought people together daily. Vince Horn did the first one in 2011 (?) and there were about four more, once a year, until 2015(?). Most of the conferences were in Boulder. CO but the first one was in LA at a place called "University of the West." Attendees came from all over the place, globally. Hokai from Croatia, for example. My friend Gozen, a Zen master, came from Las Cruces, me from Chicago, and Ron Crouch, too.

Kenneth and I hit it off for some reason. I felt he was more approachable than Daniel. So we started talking here, then in e-mail, and in person at the conferences. I eventually asked him to coach/teach me. We talked on the phone once a week for a long time, and he helped me through the paths, second through fourth. This consisted primarily of Kenneth answering my questions and not so much telling me what practice to use. He was like a trail guide for me, letting me know what was likely going to come next and explaining what had been happening, providing me with a lot of context.



Was Kenneth set up on his own, then, or did his coaching/teaching happen within the context of DhO?

I gather that Kenneth and Daniel went all the way back to the early 90s, when they were housemates while going to UNC, yes? Both of them see-sawing somewhere on the pivit of the A&P. Then Kenneth went on a few long retreats after college, amounting to a year in Asia, hard core shit, and Daniel, seeing that his old pal had gotten onto something obviously good, went on his first retreat in the summer of 1994. There followed a very active period of humanitarian work, the year in India, and then in 1995, Daniel says he got a letter from Kenneth (MCBT2, p. 469).

Where was Kenneth then, and what had he been up to during Daniel's globetrotting and immersion in third world dukha? There seems to be a hinge point around waking up the the stages of insight, mapping, and Dark Night stuff right about there. For both of them?

Yes, I cheated and went back more than a decade and a half here. But inquiring minds would love to know. This is how this shit happens, man: real people doing actual things in murky circumstances, bad weather, and lots of trial and error. It's priceless lore, and I beg you to keep indulging me.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 10:37 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
... I beg you to keep indulging me.

Am I going to need a manager? An agent? An attorney?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 10:42 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim, I don't know much at all about Kenneth's pre-DhO history. There's more in the public domain anyway, as you've already discovered.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 10:46 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
... I beg you to keep indulging me.

Am I going to need a manager? An agent? An attorney?
Yes, probably. I can certainly arrange that for you, for a nominal fee, and would even be willing to represent you myself, for a piece of this action.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 10:52 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
So the main action at that point was the Buddhist Geeks podcasts, and conferences? And was this mostly Bay Area folks at that point? where did you live, then? Daniel was in Alabama, right? Did he come to the conferences? Where did Kenneth live?

The Buddhist Geeks podcast is what brought all these disparate people together face to face once a year at the conferences. (DhO brought people "together" daily.) Vince Horn did the first one in 2011 (?) and there were about four more, once a year, until 2015(?). Most of the conferences were in Boulder. CO but the first one was in LA at a place called "University of the West." Attendees came from all over the place, globally. Hokai from Croatia, for example. My friend Gozen, a Zen master, came from Las Cruces, me from Chicago, and Ron Crouch, too.

Kenneth and I hit it off for some reason. I felt he was more approachable than Daniel. So we started talking here, then in e-mail, and in person at the conferences. I eventually asked him to coach/teach me. We talked on the phone once a week for a long time, and he helped me through the paths, second through fourth. This consisted primarily of Kenneth answering my questions and not so much telling me what practice to use. He was like a trail guide for me, letting me know what was likely going to come next and explaining what had been happening, providing me with a lot of context.


Okay, then back to our written oral eyewitness history, then.

"He helped me through the paths, second through fourth." ("And after seeing the ascetic monk, Gautama went on to become the Buddha.")

Stories! You guys hit it off. How much did you laugh? What about? Who was sleeping with whom? And what about that long meandering drunken conversation, wherever that was? How does that fit in here.

Jesus, Marti. Little help, here.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 10:57 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I just knew I was going to need an attorney. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 11:05 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim,

Have your read Kenneth's book draft? I think it might cover some of these questions. He gives his history from being a suicidal cocaine addict to fourth path. I thought it was pretty cool. 

https://eudoxos.github.io/cfitness/html/index.html

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 11:09 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
That's the book he never, ever, ever, ever can finish. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 11:09 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon Dayton:
Tim,

Have your read Kenneth's book draft? I think it might cover some of these questions. He gives his history from being a suicidal cocaine addict to fourth path. I thought it was pretty cool. 

https://eudoxos.github.io/cfitness/html/index.html


Oh, great. Thanks for this. Cocaine addict for how long? (How long is the key with addiction, often)

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 11:17 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I just knew I was going to need an attorney. 

Well, that's what attorneys do: they get innocent people just trying to live their lives into legal quagmires along the fault lines of competing interests, and then make a ton of money by making the problems they originally created worse.

Shall we talk about my retainer fee, for leading you into a mine field?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 11:17 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon Dayton:
Tim,

Have your read Kenneth's book draft? I think it might cover some of these questions. He gives his history from being a suicidal cocaine addict to fourth path. I thought it was pretty cool. 

https://eudoxos.github.io/cfitness/html/index.html

Ah!! Thank you!!

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 11:19 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
That's the book he never, ever, ever, ever can finish. 


[Farrington, ever ready to rush in where angels fear to tread, bites immediately:] Why is that, Chris?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 11:19 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I've worked with many an attorney and I've worked against a few, too. Can you lead me where I won't actually go?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 11:21 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I've worked with many an attorney and I've worked against a few, too. Can you lead me where I won't actually go?

That would depend on how thirsty you are, and how prepared you are to live with that thirst in service to the higher dot you have your eye on.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 11:28 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Why is that, Chris?

I'll answer this one - because Kenneth Folk is what I'd call a serial quitter. He would agree. He likes to start projects he finds interesting, at first, and when he's no longer interested, he drops them. I have no idea why this happens and I don't think he understands the behavior, either. It's just part of his DNA.



RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 11:28 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I once, long ago, had my eye on a Dot. She had other ideas.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 11:32 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
That would depend on how thirsty you are, and how prepared you are to live with that thirst...

Hmmm...  who's more thirsty?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 12:32 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
That would depend on how thirsty you are, and how prepared you are to live with that thirst...

Hmmm...  who's more thirsty?

Here’s the thing I thirst for here, or at least an example of my thirst being quenched in a completely unexpected way, which is the only way this particular kind of thirst can be quenched:

once upon a time, I knew a guy at the Episcopalian Church where my wife at the time was the director of Christian Education, name of Fred, a huge ex-Marine officer, 6 foot 4, 350 pounds, former linebacker kind of guy, gone somewhat rounder. He and i used to get together and shoot the shit over a whiskey or three, and he would tell what war stories he was allowed to--- he had been a LURP squad leader in Vietnam, but that recon unit of his did not always, shall we say, operate in Vietnam, and therefore he was honor bound to leave a lot of shit black. Still, incredible stories from a man who seen his share of mega shit hit the hurricane fans.

If that was all it had ever been, i would have been a happy, happy man, with a friend like that, whiskey like that, stories like that. But then one day Fred decided, possibly under the advisement of either Dr. Jack or Dr. Jim, as he called the whiskeys, that he was going to finally go to the Wall, the Vietnam Memorial in DC. He had never been because, as he had told me several times, at peak whiskey hours, he had only lost one guy the whole time he was out there with his guys for weeks at a time in the far fields of places which shall remain nameless, with no hope of evac or support, basically. It was his point man. And ever time he mentioned that, there was a catch in his voice, and another shot or two before things went on in a different direction.

So he asks me if I’d like to come along, i say, Duh, and off we go, along with a Navy guy who’d done his own time over there in patrol boats
in the Mekong Delta. So the three of us get to DC, on a very mild spring day, Fred has already sweated through his shirt, a quarter mile from the Wall. And we get there and start looking for the point man’s name: Barry Price. We find him in the catalogue first, and then on Panel 17-E—54, and stand there looking at it in silence, and I glance at Fred and there are just rivers of tears streaming down his face, and the occasional sob, and we just stand there a long long time without a word, while everyone else goes about their own grief business around us. It was just pure grace, to be there.

And at some point, feeling sort of like a slimeball, i quietly got my camera up and took a shot of Fred and Bob’s reflection in the Wall. It felt ghoulish, almost, but I'm glad i did it, and i eventually gave both Fred and Bob copies of the photo, and they were glad i had done it too.

You see? Who could say they are thirsty for that? You don’t even know how to thirst for a moment like that. And all you can do is be grateful for it when it come as a pure gift.

So you’re a combat veteran who’s done his time under fire in places and situations I know how to respect. And I’m willing to be here pouring the whiskey as long as i can keep you drinking and talking, because i don’t know what form that water of life may present itself in, but i’ll know it when we taste it.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 12:34 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 1:07 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim, I have nothing in my past, nothing that is even light years close, to your friend Fred or his Navy pal. Nothing. I've spent a lot of time with people like that over the past few years and I know this, really deep down.

I was working a few years ago with a retired Lt. General, name withheld, teaching a class, and we take our class full of business executives on a tour of West Point. One of the stops is the cemetery. This is a sacred place. It feels sacred, and I mean seriously fucking special. Like, I get chills and my hair stands on end every time I visit this place. So the general does his history speech, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Vietnam, and so on, as he slowly walks among the graves, and also telling the story of what's actually required to have the so-called privilege of being buried there. There are names we'd recognize. Big-time names, famous Army names, on the grave markers and headstones. But he's not looking at those. He keeps going and then stops at one particular grave. I'm standing there, watching, and something clicks in my head and I try to walk over to listen more closely, and I see a name on that grave, and it's his last name. I'm still a good thirty feet away, so I think well, that's a pretty common last name. And we move along and we all get back on our bus and continue the tour.

Eventually, we get back to the classroom. I'm now sitting next to the general at a table in the back of the room and I see a copper bracelet on his wrist. He's not watching me, he's listening to another instructor who's now teaching the class. The bracelet makes me curious. I have to wait for him to move his arm to a certain position so I can read what's on that bracelet. He finally does, and SHIT! it's the same name that was on the grave he was standing next to on the tour. But it's his daughter's name. Captain Deborah Soandso, USMA 2007, KIA Afghanistan, May 2011.

I can't even imagine the sacrifice these people make. These families make.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 1:13 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Thank you for that picture. I don't have any with that kind of meaning behind them. But seriously, thank you.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 1:19 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:

I was working a few years ago with a retired Lt. General, name withheld, teaching a class, and we take our class full of business executives on a tour of West Point. One of the stops is the cemetery. This is a sacred place. It feels sacred, and I mean seriously fucking special. Like, I get chills and my hair stands on end every time I visit this place. So the general does his history speech, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Vietnam, and so on, as he slowly walks among the graves, and also telling the story of what's actually required to have the so-called privilege of being buried there. There are names we'd recognize. Big-time names, famous Army names, on the grave markers and headstones. But he's not looking at those. He keeps going and then stops at one particular grave. I'm standing there, watching, and something clicks in my head and I try to walk over to listen more closely, and I see a name on that grave, and it's his last name. I'm still a good thirty feet away, so I think well, that's a pretty common last name. And we move along and we all get back on our bus and continue the tour.

Eventually, we get back to the classroom. I'm now sitting next to the general at a table in the back of the room and I see a copper bracelet on his wrist. He's not watching me, he's listening to another instructor who's now teaching the class. The bracelet makes me curious. I have to wait for him to move his arm to a certain position so I can read what's on that bracelet. He finally does, and SHIT! it's the same name that was on the grave he was standing next to on the tour. But it's his daughter's name. Captain Deborah Soandso, USMA 2007, KIA Afghanistan, May 2011.

I can't even imagine the sacrifice these people make. These families make.
That's it, the goosebump factor, humility, awe, love, admiration, respect, for people who have paid full price.

Tim, I have nothing in my past, nothing that is even light years close, to your friend Fred or his Navy pal. Nothing. I've spent a lot of time with people like that over the past few years and I know this, really deep down.


You belied this just by telling that one story already. Shut up and drink your fucking whiskey.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
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4/25/20 1:22 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Well... cheers, Tim.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 1:26 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Cheers to you, Chris.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
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4/25/20 1:31 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Cocaine addict for how long? (How long is the key with addiction, often)
Not sure. He was in his twenties when the story started so it couldn't have been that long. It's definitely a story worth reading.
That's the book he never, ever, ever, ever can finish.

Lots of juicy stuff there whether it's "finished" or not. It almost reads as an abriged version of MCTB (with Kenneth's own spin of course). I really like that the narrative is up front. Re-reading bits of it got me on the cushion this mornning.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/25/20 3:38 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Thanks Brandon.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/26/20 8:47 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I have another story eating its way out of me this morning. The therapy is to tell it:

My father-in-law retired as a Colonel in the U.S. Air Force. He started his service from ROTC (Penn State) during the Cuban Missile Crisis and ended it running the southeastern U.S. airspace out of Tyndal AFB in Panama City, FL. If you saw the movie The Great Santini, he was just like the father in that story, played by Robert Duvall. He did a lot of flying all over the world and wasn't home much, but my wife's family moved to wherever he was posted and lived there, except Vietnam. He did several tours in Southeast Asia in the 1970s, one piloting SF into various weird places and another defoliating the jungles using Agent Orange. Like so many vets from that era, it was the Agent Orange that got him.

He developed several types of cancer and had severe respiratory issues. He was hospitalized in Panama City but they couldn't keep him there - didn't have the ventilator expertise (sounds familiar, eh?). So they moved him up to Dothan, AL, about 90 miles north. He could no longer breathe on his own and because of the ventilator he couldn't talk or eat by himself. He used a little whiteboard to write messages on but after a while, he couldn't do that, either. My mother-in-law would not let this man go, even though all the docs and most of the family said otherwise. This stand-off between the let him go and the make him suffer factions lasted for months. No one can breathe on their own and survive being taken off a ventilator for that long.

But eventually, the time came. He was moved to a hospice facility back in Panama City. We flew down to say goodbye. He arrived in an ambulance and they put him in a private room. He was there for a few hours and then the decision was made to remove the ventilator. Out came the tubes.  Then he raised both arms and did thumbs-up with both hands. 

Thumbs up!

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/26/20 9:15 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Wow, that's quite the story. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/26/20 9:18 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Want more?   emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/26/20 9:58 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Sure! I'm picturing a whole collection of concice dharma stories by the laconic arahant C. Marti, with a foreword by Tim Farrington that is longer than the entire collection.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/26/20 9:59 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Want more?   emoticon

i do!

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/26/20 10:33 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I have another story eating its way out of me this morning. The therapy is to tell it:

My father-in-law retired as a Colonel in the U.S. Air Force. He started his service from ROTC (Penn State) during the Cuban Missile Crisis and ended it running the southeastern U.S. airspace out of Tyndal AFB in Panama City, FL. If you saw the movie The Great Santini, he was just like the father in that story, played by Robert Duvall. He did a lot of flying all over the world and wasn't home much, but my wife's family moved to wherever he was posted and lived there, except Vietnam. He did several tours in Southeast Asia in the 1970s, one piloting SF into various weird places and another defoliating the jungles using Agent Orange. Like so many vets from that era, it was the Agent Orange that got him.

He developed several types of cancer and had severe respiratory issues. He was hospitalized in Panama City but they couldn't keep him there - didn't have the ventilator expertise (sounds familiar, eh?). So they moved him up to Dothan, AL, about 90 miles north. He could no longer breathe on his own and because of the ventilator he couldn't talk or eat by himself. He used a little whiteboard to write messages on but after a while, he couldn't do that, either. My mother-in-law would not let this man go, even though all the docs and most of the family said otherwise. This stand-off between the let him go and the make him suffer factions lasted for months. No one can breathe on their own and survive being taken off a ventilator for that long.

But eventually, the time came. He was moved to a hospice facility back in Panama City. We flew down to say goodbye. He arrived in an ambulance and they put him in a private room. He was there for a few hours and then the decision was made to remove the ventilator. Out came the tubes.  Then he raised both arms and did thumbs-up with both hands. 

Thumbs up!
Goosefuckingbumps.

This is why we fight. This is what i was talking about.

I FUCKING TOLD YOU I WOULD RECOGNIZE IT WHEN IT CAME, you [apparently fond, but simply unacceptably raunchy stream of what appears to be some kind of Air Force dialect of general military invective.]

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/26/20 10:34 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
... with a foreword by Tim Farrington that is longer than the entire collection.

As it should be! Tim is a much better writer.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
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4/26/20 10:46 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I say yes to more stories. This space shall heretoforth be known as the Dhamma Den.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
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4/26/20 10:51 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
My in-laws are almost all active duty or retired military - Air Force (2X), Army (2X), and Navy (1X - but was in the Army for a four-year stint first). When they get together the bashing and thrashing between the three branches is extraordinarily entertaining. All are alive except my wife's father, but when he was with us he was the ring leader. He subjected all his grandchildren to his unique brand of hazing. If they hated it he'd pile it on harder. If they laughed it off, he'd stop. I guess it was his way of either toughening them up or of entertaining himself. I could never figure out which.

He was a golfer. He always played on all those Air Force courses in the Florida Panhandle. They were free - for him. The first time I met him, that very day, we played a round of golf (him, me, my soon-to-be wife, and her mom). The women watched and he and I played. I'd been golfing since I was about 10 and had been on the college golf team. I was 30 that year. My wife kept telling me, in hushed tones on our golf cart, to throw the round, worried that dad would get pissed off, hate my sorry civilian ass, and that would be the end of that. I beat him, but he was pretty damned good.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/26/20 11:22 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Sure! I'm picturing a whole collection of concice dharma stories by the laconic arahant C. Marti, with a foreword by Tim Farrington that is longer than the entire collection.


No fucking way, i'm willing to write a relatively short but truly gorgeous, loving, and funny afterword, and a blurb for the back cover. But only if the tome of that fucking laconic [you know, deleted. etc, per etc] is long enough to serve as a reasonable doorstop, as my own shelves are full.

Do NOT contact my agent on this negotiation, as she will fuck it up like she always does by charging in there and asking for money.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/26/20 11:41 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
My in-laws are almost all active duty or retired military - Air Force (2X), Army (2X), and Navy (1X - but was in the Army for a four-year stint first). When they get together the bashing and thrashing between the three branches is extraordinarily entertaining. All are alive except my wife's father, but when he was with us he was the ring leader. He subjected all his grandchildren to his unique brand of hazing. If they hated it he'd pile it on harder. If they laughed it off, he'd stop. I guess it was his way of either toughening them up or of entertaining himself. I could never figure out which.

He was a golfer. He always played on all those Air Force courses in the Florida Panhandle. They were free - for him. The first time I met him, that very day, we played a round of golf (him, me, my soon-to-be wife, and her mom). The women watched and he and I played. I'd been golfing since I was about 10 and had been on the college golf team. I was 30 that year. My wife kept telling me, in hushed tones on our golf cart, to throw the round, worried that dad would get pissed off, hate my sorry civilian ass, and that would be the end of that. I beat him, but he was pretty damned good.
My sister Kati is in Destin, running a big condo op like the pro she is.

You did right to beat the guy, absolutely. He'd have known it if you tossed it, and taken it as a sign of disrespect.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
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4/26/20 11:51 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Destin is very nice. Probably my favorite Florida gulf coast beach town How long has she lived there?

I was there a few months ago and Destin is way better off, during and post-Hurricane Micheal, than Panama City. Destin looked normal. PC has been devastated. As you drive west along the gulf coast the damage decreases quickly.  In PC there wasn't a tree left standing above about ten feet high. Most structures were damaged badly. My mother-in-law sat that storm out inside a closet in her front hallway amidst 200 MPH winds and torrents of rain. The house collapsed around her. PC was hit by the western eyewall, the worst part of the hurricane.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
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4/26/20 11:56 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
You did right to beat the guy, absolutely.

There was never any hesitation, but he was good. I had to pay attention and work at it. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/26/20 12:13 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
You did right to beat the guy, absolutely.

There was never any hesitation, 
Why am I not surprised?

but he was good. I had to pay attention and work at it. 


best of all worlds.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
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4/26/20 12:18 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Destin is very nice. Probably my favorite Florida gulf coast beach town How long has she lived there?


A good long bunch of years now. She spent a lot of years in Navarre, where she ran the Holiday Inn until two hurricanes in three years somewhere in there did that gig in. Then she just eased up away up the upscale coast. She fucking runs half the Panhandle, everybody owes her favors, she's hired half the population at various points.

My nephew Shane, her son, also happens to be the best blues guitarist in the Panhandle.

I was there a few months ago and Destin is way better off, during and post-Hurricane Micheal, than Panama City. 

Destin looked normal. PC has been devastated. As you drive west along the gulf coast the damage decreases quickly.  In PC there wasn't a tree left standing above about ten feet high. Most structures were damaged badly. My mother-in-law sat that storm out inside a closet in her front hallway amidst 200 MPH winds and torrents of rain. The house collapsed around her. PC was hit by the western eyewall, the worst part of the hurricane.


the hazards of that gorgeous place. My dad lived out his last years in Pensacola, and i was down there for a while when he was in rehab after his-second-to-last stroke. (there's some stories there for the next bottle of whiskey.)

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/26/20 12:23 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Alright, that would be the place to meet up, then. The Florida Panhandle. The Redneck Riviera.

Perfect!

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/26/20 6:46 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Alright, that would be the place to meet up, then. The Florida Panhandle. The Redneck Riviera.

Perfect!

Yes! My sister will hook us up with cheap housing in expensive environs, and my nephew will blow the bar away while we drink what guys like us drink, on the redneck rviera. perfect.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/27/20 6:15 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
My dad lived out his last years in Pensacola, and i was down there for a while when he was in rehab after his-second-to-last stroke. (there's some stories there for the next bottle of whiskey.)

I have some dad stories, too. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/27/20 6:32 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
My dad lived out his last years in Pensacola, and i was down there for a while when he was in rehab after his-second-to-last stroke. (there's some stories there for the next bottle of whiskey.)

I have some dad stories, too. 

two bottles of whiskey, then. Marines call two bottles of anything "a good start."

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/27/20 7:15 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
My wife got her MBA in Pensacola at the University of West Florida. She minored in theater. She was a lounge singer in that area to help fund her education, so maybe while your nephew plays great blues guitar...

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/27/20 7:31 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
My wife got her MBA in Pensacola at the University of West Florida. 
I have a UWF tee-shirt! The school was right on my drive to my dad's rehab hospital, and since the rehab hospital didn't have t-shirts and i am a talismanic memory encoding T-shirt guy, i inscribed that mini-era in a lovely blue and white Argonaut shirt. I can smell the shit everytime i put it on; it smells like . . . something i would not have missed for all the world.

She minored in theater. She was a lounge singer in that area to help fund her education, so maybe while your nephew plays great blues guitar...


i would be genuinely delighted to see you finish that sentence. I'm sure you just mean that she could belt out a few numbers while laid out along the top of a piano in a slinky, glittery outfit.


(edit, p.s.) not sure of the overlap or not, but she may have crossed paths on the bar singers circuit with Shawn Curle, Shane's dad, who was also a blues guitarist of real power and mad chops, though in the end his drug habit proved more powerful still, God bless him.

How glamorous is THAT, i have to say, your wife singing her way through school! That is just so damn cool.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/27/20 7:32 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I used my discretion (and an ellipsis, like this one)... anyway, that was before we met. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/27/20 8:23 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I used my discretion (and an ellipsis, like this one)... anyway, that was before we met. 

discretion and three dots will get you far, my friend, and, even better, keep you from getting in deep do-do. Take it from one who knows, by having failed often enough to use either, when both were probably called for. 

Still, have her work up a few blues numbers and torch songs. Shane can play anything while jumping from amp to amp and onto a trapeze. Even if he falls, he keeps playing on the way down, and uses the bounces from the safety net to change keys.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/27/20 4:33 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
A dad story:

My dad was 93, which is a lot older than anyone else in my family. He lived a few blocks away in an independent living facility. Simply put, he had a one-bedroom apartment with meal privileges and house cleaning services. He never needed much more by way of support, which was great. He did have congestive heart failure, two very weak kidneys, and he used a walker. Beyond that, he was self-sufficient and mentally sharp. Periodically he'd have an episode of some sort and I'd meet him in the emergency room where we'd sit while they diagnosed whatever issue he was having that day. One time he was dehydrated. One time he had an infection in his knee. Stuff like that. Sometimes he'd be admitted for a day or two, but inevitably, or so so it seemed, he'd come home and go right back to his routine.

We were on one of those periodic emergency room visits. This time he was getting an echocardiogram, and while that was happening he had a small heart attack. So, of course, he had to be admitted to the hospital for more tests. His blood oxygen was low so they put him in ICU, on oxygen, and then on a CPAP machine, which he fucking hated. I talked to the ICU doctors and they thought he would benefit from angioplasty, maybe a stent, and especially a valve replacement. But they weren't sure he could survive anesthesia, let alone the surgical procedure. I talked to my dad and we decided to wait on that stuff so he could stabilize, get stronger, and maybe do that later on. He said, during this conversation, "I've had a long life, you know." I agreed, of course, and told him my fondest wish was to live to be 93, too.

As I was leaving for the night (I'd promised dad I'd come back in the morning, first thing) the head ICU doc, a really nice, smart woman, stopped me and said I should think about what to do if dad got worse. She didn't think his heart was going to last much longer and so she was giving me that talk. I processed it as much as I could and called my brother to tell him to get his ass to the hospital first thing in the morning. I went home and went to bed, troubled, but hopeful.

I went back to the ICU in the morning, 6:00 or so, only to find... no dad. The room was occupied but by some other patient. I went to the nurse's station to ask where he was and they said, "Oh, he did well last night so we transferred him to an acute care floor. He doesn't need to be in ICU anymore." So I think, "Cool, maybe this is really gonna be ok." I went down to find him on the floor below, and he was sitting up, eating cereal, and watching the news on television. This was October 30, 2017.

As we're talking he tells me he's having some trouble getting oxygen, and he's short of breath. I put the oxygen mask on him. He did okay for a few minutes but the blood oxygen monitor was falling, from 93... 90... 88... 85...81... I hit the nurse's call button and she came in and asked some questions and went off to get a CPAP. He's clearly getting worried and stressed, and worse, and worse. Pretty soon he's gasping for air, and losing consciousness, so I hit the emergency call button. If you ever do this in an acute care facility, be prepared for some serious shit to go down.

Roughly 20 seconds later about a dozen doctors and nurses blasted in with all kinds of equipment - crash carts, bags, tubes and other stuff. They're getting ready to do something serious to dad, and they're all coming right fat me because I'm between them and him. And then it hit me - that nice ICU doctor had this in mind last night when she talked to me - so I threw up my hand, palm out, and said with as much authority as I could muster, "STOP!" And they stopped. This surprised me. After a second or so, one of the docs says, "Who are you? He has no orders in the system," while pointing at dad. I suspect this means they don't have any record of a DNR, or an R, or anything, so they're getting ready to throw my sorry ass out of the way and cut open dad's trachea to insert a ventilator tube. I said, "I'm his son" which once again worked. They didn't leave, though. They all stood there, watching as dad faded. I put my hand on his chest. I have no idea why. I could feel his breathing get shallow and slow, slower, then even slower, and seem to disappear. Then he did that death rattle thing and let out a loud moan, both of which I still have nightmares about, but I kept my hand on his chest where it was and talked to him. He got absolutely still and quiet after a while and the docs, every single one of them, were still standing there with us in that little hospital room, just staring. This was weird, having an audience at the very last thing you'd ever want to have an audience.

He was pronounced dead about 15 minutes after I entered his room that morning. It seemed like a lot longer. An amazing coincidence. I'm still processing that day and it happened three and a half years ago. Sometimes it feels like I should have let the doctors do something. Some of the time it feels like I saved dad a crapload of pain and suffering. I like that last version but I really still don't know if I did the right thing. It just happened that way.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/27/20 5:19 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thanks for sharing your story. I hope sharing it relieves some suffering.

I would do what you did I guess.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/27/20 5:57 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Tim, I have nothing in my past, nothing that is even light years close, to your friend Fred or his Navy pal. Nothing. I've spent a lot of time with people like that over the past few years and I know this, really deep down.

Hogwash. cf. below.

Chris Marti
A dad story:

My dad was 93, which is a lot older than anyone else in my family. He lived a few blocks away in an independent living facility. Simply put, he had a one-bedroom apartment with meal privileges and house cleaning services. He never needed much more by way of support, which was great. He did have congestive heart failure, two very weak kidneys, and he used a walker. Beyond that, he was self-sufficient and mentally sharp. Periodically he'd have an episode of some sort and I'd meet him in the emergency room where we'd sit while they diagnosed whatever issue he was having that day. One time he was dehydrated. One time he had an infection in his knee. Stuff like that. Sometimes he'd be admitted for a day or two, but inevitably, or so so it seemed, he'd come home and go right back to his routine.

We were on one of those periodic emergency room visits. This time he was getting an echocardiogram, and while that was happening he had a small heart attack. So, of course, he had to be admitted to the hospital for more tests. His blood oxygen was low so they put him in ICU, on oxygen, and then on a CPAP machine, which he fucking hated. I talked to the ICU doctors and they thought he would benefit from angioplasty, maybe a stent, and especially a valve replacement. But they weren't sure he could survive anesthesia, let alone the surgical procedure. I talked to my dad and we decided to wait on that stuff so he could stabilize, get stronger, and maybe do that later on. He said, during this conversation, "I've had a long life, you know." I agreed, of course, and told him my fondest wish was to live to be 93, too.

As I was leaving for the night (I'd promised dad I'd come back in the morning, first thing) the head ICU doc, a really nice, smart woman, stopped me and said I should think about what to do if dad got worse. She didn't think his heart was going to last much longer and so she was giving me that talk . I processed it as much as I could and called my brother to tell him to get his ass to the hospital first thing in the morning. I went home and went to bed, troubled, but hopeful.

I went back to the ICU in the morning, 6:00 or so, only to find... no dad. The room was occupied but by some other patient. I went to the nurse's station to ask where he was and they said, "Oh, he did well last night so we transferred him to an acute care floor. He doesn't need to be in ICU anymore." So I think, "Cool, maybe this is really gonna be ok." I went down to find him on the floor below, and he was sitting up, eating cereal, and watching the news on television. This was October 30, 2017.

As we're talking he tells me he's having some trouble getting oxygen, and he's short of breath. I put the oxygen mask on him. He did okay for a few minutes but the blood oxygen monitor was falling, from 93... 90... 88... 85...81... I hit the nurse's call button and she came in and asked some questions and went off to get a CPAP. He's clearly getting worried and stressed, and worse, and worse. Pretty soon he's gasping for air, and losing consciousness, so I hit the emergency call button. If you ever do this in an acute care facility, be prepared for some serious shit to go down.

Roughly 20 seconds later about a dozen doctors and nurses blasted in with all kinds of equipment - crash carts, bags, tubes and other stuff. They're getting ready to do something serious to dad, and they're all coming right fat me because I'm between them and him. And then it hit me - that nice ICU doctor had

this

in mind last night when she talked to me - so I threw up my hand, palm out, and said with as much authority as I could muster, "

STOP!

" And they stopped. This surprised me. After a second or so, one of the docs says, "Who are you ? He has no orders in the system," while pointing at dad. I suspect this means they don't have any record of a DNR, or an R, or anything, so they're getting ready to throw my sorry ass out of the way and cut open dad's trachea to insert a ventilator tube. I said, "I'm his son" which once again worked. They didn't leave, though. They all stood there, watching as dad faded. I put my hand on his chest. I have no idea why. I could feel his breathing get shallow and slow, slower, then even slower, and seem to disappear. Then he did that death rattle thing and let out a loud moan, both of which I still have nightmares about, but I kept my hand on his chest where it was and talked to him. He got absolutely still and quiet after a while and the docs, every single one of them, were still standing there with us in that little hospital room, just staring. This was weird, having an audience at the very last thing you'd ever want to have an audience.

He was pronounced dead about 15 minutes after I entered his room that morning. It seemed like a lot longer. An amazing coincidence. I'm still processing that day and it happened three and a half years ago. Sometimes it feels like I should have let the doctors do something. Some of the time it feels like I saved dad a crapload of pain and suffering. I like that last version but I really still don't know if I did the right thing. It just happened that way.  


RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 5:56 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
So... what about that Kenneth Folk stuff again? I feel sort of warmed up now with some of the more important stuff out of the way  emoticon

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:00 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
So... what about that Kenneth Folk stuff again? I feel sort of warmed up now with some of the more important stuff out of the way  emoticon

Just start ambling toward SCHISM story by story, in baby steps, until we hear someone scream, then we'll pause to review.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:06 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Oh.. yeah. Daniel decided at one point (2009?) to hire a couple of people, young men, to manage the DhO message boards. They got deeply into Actual Freedom. They weren't very good at the message board stuff. They pissed a bunch of people off and thus began an Exodus: Vicent Horn, Hokai Sobol, etc. all slowly left to pursue other things. It got so bad that Kenneth asked me to start KFD that summer. This was, I suppose, the first schism.

Did I tell this part already?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:11 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Oh.. yeah. Daniel decided at one point (2009?) to hire a couple of people, young men, to manage the DhO message boards. They got deeply into Actual Freedom. They weren't very good at the message board stuff. They pissed a bunch of people off and thus began an Exodus: Vicent Horn, Hokai Sobol, etc. all slowly left to pursue other things. It got so bad that Kenneth asked me to start KFD that summer. This was, I suppose, the first schism.

Did I tell this part already?

no. Forge on. Baby steps. USE REPLY-ALL, out of consideration for hardworking historians to come.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:12 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I'm going to refuse the reply-all suggestion. Future historians will just have to cut and paste. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:15 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
you're right. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke, the lazy bastards.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:26 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
A dad story:

My dad was 93, which is a lot older than anyone else in my family. He lived a few blocks away in an independent living facility. Simply put, he had a one-bedroom apartment with meal privileges and house cleaning services. He never needed much more by way of support, which was great. He did have congestive heart failure, two very weak kidneys, and he used a walker. Beyond that, he was self-sufficient and mentally sharp. Periodically he'd have an episode of some sort and I'd meet him in the emergency room where we'd sit while they diagnosed whatever issue he was having that day. One time he was dehydrated. One time he had an infection in his knee. Stuff like that. Sometimes he'd be admitted for a day or two, but inevitably, or so so it seemed, he'd come home and go right back to his routine.

We were on one of those periodic emergency room visits. This time he was getting an echocardiogram, and while that was happening he had a small heart attack. So, of course, he had to be admitted to the hospital for more tests. His blood oxygen was low so they put him in ICU, on oxygen, and then on a CPAP machine, which he fucking hated. I talked to the ICU doctors and they thought he would benefit from angioplasty, maybe a stent, and especially a valve replacement. But they weren't sure he could survive anesthesia, let alone the surgical procedure. I talked to my dad and we decided to wait on that stuff so he could stabilize, get stronger, and maybe do that later on. He said, during this conversation, "I've had a long life, you know." I agreed, of course, and told him my fondest wish was to live to be 93, too.

As I was leaving for the night (I'd promised dad I'd come back in the morning, first thing) the head ICU doc, a really nice, smart woman, stopped me and said I should think about what to do if dad got worse. She didn't think his heart was going to last much longer and so she was giving me that talk. I processed it as much as I could and called my brother to tell him to get his ass to the hospital first thing in the morning. I went home and went to bed, troubled, but hopeful.

I went back to the ICU in the morning, 6:00 or so, only to find... no dad. The room was occupied but by some other patient. I went to the nurse's station to ask where he was and they said, "Oh, he did well last night so we transferred him to an acute care floor. He doesn't need to be in ICU anymore." So I think, "Cool, maybe this is really gonna be ok." I went down to find him on the floor below, and he was sitting up, eating cereal, and watching the news on television. This was October 30, 2017.

As we're talking he tells me he's having some trouble getting oxygen, and he's short of breath. I put the oxygen mask on him. He did okay for a few minutes but the blood oxygen monitor was falling, from 93... 90... 88... 85...81... I hit the nurse's call button and she came in and asked some questions and went off to get a CPAP. He's clearly getting worried and stressed, and worse, and worse. Pretty soon he's gasping for air, and losing consciousness, so I hit the emergency call button. If you ever do this in an acute care facility, be prepared for some serious shit to go down.

Roughly 20 seconds later about a dozen doctors and nurses blasted in with all kinds of equipment - crash carts, bags, tubes and other stuff. They're getting ready to do something serious to dad, and they're all coming right fat me because I'm between them and him. And then it hit me - that nice ICU doctor had this in mind last night when she talked to me - so I threw up my hand, palm out, and said with as much authority as I could muster, "STOP!" And they stopped. This surprised me. After a second or so, one of the docs says, "Who are you? He has no orders in the system," while pointing at dad. I suspect this means they don't have any record of a DNR, or an R, or anything, so they're getting ready to throw my sorry ass out of the way and cut open dad's trachea to insert a ventilator tube. I said, "I'm his son" which once again worked. They didn't leave, though. They all stood there, watching as dad faded. I put my hand on his chest. I have no idea why. I could feel his breathing get shallow and slow, slower, then even slower, and seem to disappear. Then he did that death rattle thing and let out a loud moan, both of which I still have nightmares about, but I kept my hand on his chest where it was and talked to him. He got absolutely still and quiet after a while and the docs, every single one of them, were still standing there with us in that little hospital room, just staring. This was weird, having an audience at the very last thing you'd ever want to have an audience.

He was pronounced dead about 15 minutes after I entered his room that morning. It seemed like a lot longer. An amazing coincidence. I'm still processing that day and it happened three and a half years ago. Sometimes it feels like I should have let the doctors do something. Some of the time it feels like I saved dad a crapload of pain and suffering. I like that last version but I really still don't know if I did the right thing. It just happened that way.
That's a powerful remembrance. What happened, happened. I've sat with three of my four grandparents on hospice, until the end. Two of the three were able to communicate and had their faculties headed in. My only anecdotal evidence, to support one of your theories, is that both of them told me they had a long life and wanted nothing more from it - they were fine to go whenever the time came. My grandmother actually said she wanted to "get it over with" because she was old and over it. The third had Alzheimer's - he was a WWII medic and a very, very angry man. Until he became enlightened when he completely forgot the detrimental parts of his history and had no thought of the future - he was light-hearted and happy for the remaining time - and he was also ready to go. All in the same age range as your dad. 

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:32 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I just went to fill my coffee cup and made the mistake of looking out the window. This window faces east and the sun is not quite up yet. It rained last night and it's sort of foggy, not heavy fog, just misty. The sunlight is a rich golden color and it's infusing that color into the mist everywhere. I had to stand there for a while, Tim.

Anyway...

KDF did well for quite some time, not sure how long, until Kenneth got into experimenting with an AF-style practice. And by "got into" I mean jumped into the deep end of the pool naked and with no lifeguard. The purpose was to eliminate emotions and to find some "zone" in which all things would appear fresh, uber-bright, colorful and untainted. It was ridiculous to me. My feeling was (still is) that dharma was all about recognizing our human-ness. That includes all of our various foibles. Emotions, especially. And dealing with it, knowing it, grokking it so deeply that it was no longer the cause of "suffering."

Kenneth became combative about this and the rift his quest was causing (I know, "combative" belies the whole objective he'd set for himself). So an online dharma friend and fellow DhO/KFD poster and me (Jackson, "Awouldbehipster" by screen name), left KFD and started the Dharma Forum Refugee Camp. I really can't recall when that happened, but it's discoverable over on AwakeNetwork.) Kenneth showed up on DFRC once or twice early on, and we banned him due to his weird, un-Kenneth-like behavior. That's the second schism.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:33 AM as a reply to T.
T --

The third had Alzheimer's...

My mom had, and died of, alzheimers. That's another story, but it's long and ugly and painful. Brutal would be a good way to describe it.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:37 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I just went to fill my coffee cup and made the mistake of looking out the window. This window faces east and the sun is not quite up yet. It rained last night and it's sort of foggy, not heavy fog, just misty. The sunlight is a rich golden color and it's infusing that color into the mist everywhere. I had to stand there for a while, Tim.

we're never gonna get anything done here with you pulling shit like that, man.


Anyway...

exactly.

KDF . . . 

Forgot to ask, or missed it. What is KDF?


KDF did well for quite some time, not sure how long, until Kenneth got into experimenting with an AF-style practice. And by "got into" I mean jumped into the deep end of the pool naked and with no lifeguard. The purpose was to eliminate emotions and to find some "zone" in which all things would appear fresh, uber-bright, colorful and untainted. It was ridiculous to me. My feeling was (still is) that dharma was all about recognizing our human-ness. That includes all of our various foibles. Emotions, especially. And dealing with it, knowing it, grokking it so deeply that it was no longer the cause of "suffering."

Kenneth became combative about this and the rift his quest was causing (I know, "combative" belies the whole objective he'd set for himself). So an online dharma friend and fellow DhO/KFD poster and me (Jackson, "Awouldbehipster" by screen name), left KFD and started the Dharma Forum Refugee Camp. I really can't recall when that happened, but it's discoverable over on AwakeNetwork.) Kenneth showed up on DFRC once or twice early on, and we banned him due to his weird, un-Kenneth-like behavior.

copy that.


That's the second schism.


and the first schism was?

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:40 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Typos R Me.

KFD = Kenneth Folk Dharma

The first schism:

Oh.. yeah. Daniel decided at one point (2009?) to hire a couple of people, young men, to manage the DhO message boards. They got deeply into Actual Freedom. They weren't very good at the message board stuff. They pissed a bunch of people off and thus began an Exodus: Vicent Horn, Hokai Sobol, etc. all slowly left to pursue other things. It got so bad that Kenneth asked me to start KFD that summer. This was, I suppose, the first schism.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:50 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
By the way, these "places" are still available for recreational reading on AwakeNetwork. See the attached file.

Attachments:

Attachment


RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:52 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Typos R Me.

KFD = Kenneth Folk Dharma

The first schism:

Oh.. yeah. Daniel decided at one point (2009?) to hire a couple of people, young men, to manage the DhO message boards. They got deeply into Actual Freedom. They weren't very good at the message board stuff. They pissed a bunch of people off and thus began an Exodus: Vicent Horn, Hokai Sobol, etc. all slowly left to pursue other things. It got so bad that Kenneth asked me to start KFD that summer. This was, I suppose, the first schism.
bad, hasty readers R I.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 6:54 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
and THEN what happened? after the second schism.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 9:41 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
My feeling was (still is) that dharma was all about recognizing our human-ness.

That's why you are so important here, Chris.

I was so moved by your dad's story as well. It takes guts to do what you did (not-doing!). For sure you got clues indicating you took the right decision. I would also bet it did something to you to write that piece. Hats off to you, sir...

And thanks for unearthing memories from that mysterious period. It starts to make sense... and I did not get that message board thing before. A few years ago, interested in that epic, I took the recent posts from the last page, coming this way (only read what attracted my attention, no systematic scanning of the content. I was trying to understand what happened around actualism). Generally, there are a lot of beautiful, deep threads, the same stuff coming up again and again, but not so much about the politics.

I would love to know more about the frictions with the AF practitioners, how come that both Daniel and later Kenneth got into it (from here, it looks... far-fetched to say the least). Even now, Daniel does not go into details. I understand the friendship part with Tarin, though...

Anyway, thanks to Tim for pushing you, patiently and persistently...
with metta
smiling stone

PS: Tim, the "reply all" thing is a real pain in the butt to scroll through, very very heavy, especially if you have some chat going on in between. So I am very happy that Chris did not accept that! See you at the bar... Or... is this the bar? there is this feeling...

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 10:01 AM as a reply to Smiling Stone.
I would love to know more about the frictions with the AF practitioners, how come that both Daniel and later Kenneth got into it (from here, it looks... far-fetched to say the least). Even now, Daniel does not go into details. I understand the friendship part with Tarin, though...

First, thank you for your nice comments.

I only have theories about the "why" questions you're asking, but they go something like this:

1) There are those who want to always be on the cutting edge of the dharma. Those folks are willing to do whatever it might take to keep up. The two people who were pushing AF at that time were Trent and Tarin - the same two managing the DhO message boards. The people you mention, surprising as it might be.... <you can fill in the banks here>. Peer pressure.

2) I believe it's hard for people to speak up and take a stand, even under general circumstances but more so on message boards devoted to spirituality or dharma. There's a nagging fear of being told to sit down and shut up, because we <insert name of dominating posters here> are more advanced and enlightened, and you're not. This plays to the innate doubts and fears we all harbor about our own understanding. Bullying.

That kind of stuff was going on here in 2009.


RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 9:56 AM as a reply to Smiling Stone.

PS: Tim, the "reply all" thing is a real pain in the butt to scroll through, very very heavy, especially if you have some chat going on in between. So I am very happy that Chris did not accept that!


i was just trying to make pepe's job easier, your heartless bastards. But Chris was right. And----- [holds brearh; may die before having to actually say it! but---- no, no, there it is, fucking -in-breat, another fucking round of this endless this---] so were you.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 10:39 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
1) There are those who want to always be on the cutting edge of the dharma. Those folks are willing to do whatever it might take to keep up. The two people who were pushing AF at that time were Trent and Tarin - the same two managing the DhO message boards. The people you mention, surprising as it might be.... <you can fill in the banks here>. Peer pressure.

I like hearing the history. There is a part of me that is a bit guilty about hearing the gossip, but I also think more transparency is always better.

Issues of leadership and hierarchy seem pretty common in message boards. On the surface they are "leaderless" but all the hierarchies are there, just in the shadows. I particpated in a message board around the same time that was suppossed to be an experiment in anarchy, and it disintegrated with its own schisms. One of the benefits of having an organized community with explicit roles, is that everything is out in the open and at the very least there can be mechansims for engaging with it. 

I actually like things like in martial arts where you have belts showing rank (I guess there are hats that denote attainment in other traditions?). There is a hierarchy, but the belts bring it into a place of abstraction where it basically compresses the subtelties into easy to comprehend quanta. Not that the shadow hierarchies aren't still there, but the big, simple, dumb colors of belts on stomachs does a good job of interfering enough with the human instinct for subtle human ranking that they you basically mostly end up focusing on the belts. They also have the benefit of being open ceiling hierarchies where the highest rank is available to as many people as are willing to do the work. There is no lone spot on the top of a pyramid for the chosen one with everyone sitting in their place down the line. It ends up being easier to separate your worth from your rank in a specific practice.

Not sure of where I was going with that, but I'm not going to feel to bad about digressions on a thread like this.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 11:15 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Chris: thank you for doing your best to satisfy everyone's curiosity. Yep, I remember Trent as well. The funny thing is that the power game is there in the threads, but not sooo obvious. It is just that there is one kind of posters who are ALWAYS right and never put their understanding in question because they are "done" and they know it. There are some in every period of the board, and they always make me feel... uneasy. I searched for Tarin (and Nikolai and others) because he came from the Goenka tradition (like me), but found out that he has this really "cutting" style, in spite of his hum... young age at the time. He is actually one of the reason why I keep on questioning this "4 paths" thing in my logs... I mean, I don't doubt the well documented changes it produces, but the validity of pursuing them. Anyway, you're here...

Brandon: nice, the martial art belts. there are belts, here, kind of... But who is giving them? based on what? that's the beauty and limit of a peer based forum. It is precious that it survives despite all this...

Tim: Hi! sorry for going against the flow... Meet you soon somewhere

with metta
smiling stone

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 11:28 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon Dayton:
1) There are those who want to always be on the cutting edge of the dharma. Those folks are willing to do whatever it might take to keep up. The two people who were pushing AF at that time were Trent and Tarin - the same two managing the DhO message boards. The people you mention, surprising as it might be.... <you can fill in the banks here>. Peer pressure.

I like hearing the history. There is a part of me that is a bit guilty about hearing the gossip, but I also think more transparency is always better.

Issues of leadership and hierarchy seem pretty common in message boards. On the surface they are "leaderless" but all the hierarchies are there, just in the shadows. I particpated in a message board around the same time that was suppossed to be an experiment in anarchy, and it disintegrated with its own schisms. One of the benefits of having an organized community with explicit roles, is that everything is out in the open and at the very least there can be mechansims for engaging with it. 

I actually like things like in martial arts where you have belts showing rank (I guess there are hats that denote attainment in other traditions?). There is a hierarchy, but the belts bring it into a place of abstraction where it basically compresses the subtelties into easy to comprehend quanta. Not that the shadow hierarchies aren't still there, but the big, simple, dumb colors of belts on stomachs does a good job of interfering enough with the human instinct for subtle human ranking that they you basically mostly end up focusing on the belts. They also have the benefit of being open ceiling hierarchies where the highest rank is available to as many people as are willing to do the work. There is no lone spot on the top of a pyramid for the chosen one with everyone sitting in their place down the line. It ends up being easier to separate your worth from your rank in a specific practice.

I like the concept of belts too. They assure me they will let me have one some day. Meanwhile, these suspenders look sharp, eh?

Not sure of where I was going with that, but I'm not going to feel to bad about digressions on a thread like this.


You either just dissed Chris Marti's thread, or something else, or i'm just paranoid, or something bad, is what i'm saying , i heard a fucking tone, and if you think you can barge in to a joint like this and, uh, do whatever that bad thing i sensed was, well then you can just [highly unlikely, probably anatomically impossible to all but a chosen few, yogi posture suggested in strong, masterfully profane terms, deleted per DhO forum rules].

love, tim

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 12:51 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
I like hearing the history. There is a part of me that is a bit guilty about hearing the gossip, but I also think more transparency is always better.

Brandon, remember, you started this thread!

I would like to say, by way of a sort-of disclaimer, that all of what I post is my version of events. If there are errors (and there no doubt are) of any kind those are all mine, and I take full responsibility for them. Besides, Tim tells me people love history, especially in the form of gossip, innuendo, and mud-slinging. He puts on a good air but that's what he's really after. Not this historical record, modern-day scripture crap he's been huxtering.





RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 1:18 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I like hearing the history. There is a part of me that is a bit guilty about hearing the gossip, but I also think more transparency is always better.

Brandon, remember, you started this thread!

Branden, you dissed YOUR OWN THREAD? I love the guy who started this thread. This thread is unbreakable. It will live as long as, uh, the server doesn't go down? But like, a while. It's history, man. You asked for history, rejoice! This is it!

I would like to say, by way of a sort-of disclaimer . . .

emoticon

Besides, Tim tells me people love history, especially in the form of gossip, innuendo, and mud-slinging. He puts on a good air but that's what he's really after. 


love, tim

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 4:04 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
It's no dis, just an equanimous acknowledgement of what is. Just noting. thread hijack...thread hijack...thread hijack, with some pleasent vedanas along the way. emoticon --(ohm)

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/28/20 4:09 PM as a reply to Smiling Stone.
Brandon: nice, the martial art belts. there are belts, here, kind of... But who is giving them? based on what? that's the beauty and limit of a peer based forum. It is precious that it survives despite all this..


It's a tribute to the value of the discussion here that a format from 2007 can compete with social media for attention. Makes me miss the good old days.

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/29/20 9:26 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Been thinking about all the schism history as reported in this thread. Maybe its what I am projecting on to the telling, but there seems to be a bit of communal embarrasment about the whole AF fiasco. Maybe even my use of the word "fiasco" is projection, but that's the sense I get.

I think it's important to remember that the founders and participants in this forum are innovators. The title and general tone of MCTB should make that clear. This is hardcore practice because it is experimental. They have taken practices that grew out of a very specific cultural context and tried to graft them on to something that is distinct and in its own state of rapid and precarious change. The risks are not just personal, but they are communal. The fact that there have been epic rifts and failed experiments is a tribute to the boldness of all the participants. I think Daniel's phrase "co-adventurers" is appropriate here.

From my limited vantage point it still seems very much like a laboratory and we are tinkering with some of the most fundamental and volatile parts of what it means to be human. We're playing with nitro glycerin and x-rays. Still many issues to iron out, but I feel like the work we do here may play a role in saving humanity from annhiliation. This stuff still may not be quite ready for prime time, but this is the place where we work out the kinks. It's fun to be a part of it.

At the end of the day, the gossip is fun, but it is also nothing compared to the much more serious ethical catastrophes that appear to happen in other spiritual communities. I'm glad we have a heritage of practicioners reckless enough to make a few mistakes, but wise enough to avoid any of the really serious ones (that I know of).

RE: Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs?
Answer
4/29/20 9:49 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon,

DhO has been in existence for over ten years. The practices for hundreds of years at a minimum, and Buddhism itself for about 2,500 years. You seem to be concerned about something and it keeps coming up when you use the word "gossip." I'd like to understand because I could easily be missing something important.