Samatha or noting during the dark night?

Brad John Turner, modified 1 Year ago.

Samatha or noting during the dark night?

Posts: 11 Join Date: 4/12/20 Recent Posts
As one who is currently experiencing the dukkha Nana's it seems the wisest option would be to focus on noting practice.  However, I am really more of a fan and inclined to Samatha development.  If I hadn't passed the A&P on a Goenka retreat I would have surely started the path of TMI, as I still want to.  That being said, since the dark night is already a present circumstance I get the notion that paying attention to the three charecteristics would be a more optimal method in getting through it.  I also have heard Samatha is easier to practice after stream entry which is why if noting practice and stream entry would be better goals for the current situation and focus on the development of Samatha and Jhanas after.  Curious to hear anyone's opinion and experience with this.  Thanks.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

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I was a Shamatha practitioners for nearly 2 and half years. Got me all the way to A&P, then to DN and I've lost it there totally. 

I rolled up the mat and was 7 years without practice basically shitting all over my life and living in agony. 

Last year got sick of it and strongly decided to get out of the DN no matter what. Opted to use Kenneth Folk's Freestyle Noting Aloud anf it worked like charm. Well, I've got hammered hard during the Re-observation but I was armed with Ingram's adice "Acceptance" and I've let the Tsunami of DN crush over me without loosing the stream of consciousness, without any laps in mindfulness. This is where Noting Aloud really paid off well in my case. 

Took me about 5 months (45-90 mins 1-3 times a day) to plow through the DN, then through EQ without clinging to it (which can result in falling back into are-observation again). 

You might not need Aloud noting if you have no issues with getting lost in Hindrances. If like me you do get sidetracked often then by ALL means get into noting Aloud to keep you on top of the Hindrances so not to loose the constant stream of consciousness. You really want to say , when sitting for 45-90 minutes that you have honestly been mindful throughout, in a matter of fact way. 

This worked for me. 
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

Posts: 695 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
I have had complete conversations with people as regards to know me. Thank you noting for this...all in silence.
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

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It used to be common for people to be advised to practice shamatha after passing something . Yeah..
Brad John Turner, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

Posts: 11 Join Date: 4/12/20 Recent Posts
Do you mean practice once through it?
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

Posts: 695 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
I have always been told that the majority of the time shamatha is appropriate in the dark night.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

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Maybe it works well for certain personslities. 

EDIT; personalities might be a wrong word. 

As passing DN has lots to do with Acceptance and Noticing mind states, feelings and sensations I see no reason why Shamatha wouldn't work IF you are not prone to hindrances and you don't have a heavy load of emotional issues. 

Apparently some folks don't sweat DN at all and pass it very fast  emoticon I wish I was such emoticon 
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

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The answers are hiding in plain sight, regardless.
Tim Farrington, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:


As passing DN has lots to do with Acceptance and Noticing mind states, feelings and sensations I see no reason why Shamatha wouldn't work IF you are not prone to hindrances and you don't have a heavy load of emotional issues. 

Apparently some folks don't sweat DN at all and pass it very fast  emoticon I wish I was such emoticon 


Apparently some folks don't sweat DN at all and pass it very fast.

I believe this is not just horseshit, but idiotic bullshit, and harmful in the extreme if it is spoken by someone with any credibility.

The Dark Night is by definition out of our control; it is the fire that burns away what is keeping us from [God, Enlightenment. Whatever You May Call it that you're doing this path shit for]. Even if, in later paths, or rounds, you don't sweat it, you should qualify that up down left and right as RARE AS SHIT and of ABSOLUTELY no fucking relevance to most practioners, who starngely enough ACTUALLY FUCKING SUFFER TO ACQUIRE THE KNOWLEDGE OF SUFFERING.

Jesus fucking christ this one makes me mad. I know daniel speaks of this, and I am shocked at that. I believe it unskillful talk, and even actively dangerous and disheartening for the vast majority who slog thrugh the dark night fo the years that JOhn of the Cross says it takes, at a minimum. ("If it is authentic, the process will last for a number of years.") 

If you're fucking zipping through no fucking sweat, don't call it a fucking dark night, I say. It's a dangerous misappropriation of a concept rooted in horrific reality, if you want to mix that little bon-bon of brief unease with the steady diet of shit sandwiches of an authentic and efficacious dark night.

love, tim
Tim Farrington, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

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Sleeping Buddha Syndrome:
I have always been told that the majority of the time shamatha is appropriate in the dark night.

I have been told that Sleeping Buddha Syndrome has heard correctly.
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Noah D, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

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Kenneth Folk:

How does a yogi know whether to practice samatha or vipassana?

There are two very different instructions, depending on whether a yogi is pre- or post- fourth ñana. A pre- fourth ñana yogi, i.e. one who has not attained to the level of the Arising and Passing Away of Phenomena, must put his focus on penetrating the object. A post- fourth ñana yogi must concentrate. It's that simple. And the reason, in my opinion, that the western dharma scene has been so spectacularly unsuccessful in producing high levels of attainment in its students is that western dharma teachers give beginning instruction to intermediate and advanced students; they tell post- fourth ñana students to ratchet up the intensity of their vipassana, when they should be telling them to concentrate their behinds off.This, in my opinion tragic situation, is due to a misunderstanding that arose out of a cultural difference. The western vipassana scene, as exemplified by Insight Meditation Society, is influenced primarily by Burmese Mahasi-style vipassana. It seems that Burmese people, by and large, concentrate so well that it is difficult for them to learn vipassana. 


https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/Jhana+and+%C3%91ana+/en
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

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As per Daniel, he said Vipassana is not the best take in this situation,  Shamatha is better for the mood boost and immunity effects.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

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If indeed you are hammered by the DN, I don't see how samatha can help much on its own as the VERY Concentration is being Dissolved into shreds emoticon How can I get myself into pure calmness in the DN Nana? The very sense of calmness is being shred to pieces as well.
All one can do is keep noting those sensations and mind states as they offer themselves. "Acceptance" and "Persistance in Noting 1-10 snesations/mind states a second" is the best way to plow through this, taking that you are a balanced enough person and will not get hurt during such unpleasant investigation of the 3C's. 

One should also be certain that this indeed is DN which is more about unpleasant mind states. In case there is more unpleasantness in the body sensations then maybe this is the 3C's stage. Still ACCEPTACE applies here too as above but yes remembering to calm down and relax those bodily tensions that can occur is a good idea.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

Posts: 93 Join Date: 9/12/18 Recent Posts
My Bad. By this situation i mean the covid thing. Just quoting Daniel in the Guru Viking interview.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

Posts: 1842 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Oh I see emoticon in that case I'm the one apologizing emoticon 
Tim Farrington, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Samatha or noting during the dark night?

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
As per Daniel, he said Vipassana is not the best take in this situation,  Shamatha is better for the mood boost and immunity effects.

+1.

I could not agree more.

Shamatha is also better for not making it worse. It makes it possible to bear it.

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