Hello All,

In MCTB, Daniel talks about how doing Concentration Practice is likely to bring up our "stuff"/produce "healing" insights into our stuff.

Are these understandings totally unrelated to the other form of "insight" -- as in "insight into the Three Characteristics"?

Is it possible to become psychologically "sorted out" by sticking to Samatha Practice (due to the healing insights)? I am trying to become fairly emotionally stabilized by using Concentration Practice as a tool.

Also, how are these insights produced by Samatha Practice any different than psychotherapy (if they both lead to the same goal, namely emotional healing)?

Thanks for any help!

Rashed

The answer could go either way. It all depends on how well one has established Right View and developed sila (morals and ethics).

If the mind has been overly conditioned by negativity and wrong views, then, one is better off seeking professional help before ignorantly relying on a meditation practice as a cure-all.


If you need psychotherapy, you are better off seeking that than in depending on a concentration practice to help you become stable. Becoming stable depends on developing Right View and being totally honest with oneself regarding one's behavior. It really all depends on how seriously out of kilter the wrong view is.

Some things can be correct without the help of another just through the practice of insight and being honest with oneself. But if the wrong view is too deeply ingrained, one is better off seeking professional help. Just be careful who you pick to help you. There are unscrupulous types out there who are only interested in how much money they can make off helping you to "fix" your pain.


Samatha practice was never meant to replace psychotherapy. If a person needs that kind of therapy, they should seek it out first to help them fix their right view and begin living a virtuous life.

All that having been said, I was able to correct some serious wrong view in my own case through the insights I had about the way I was viewing reality. But that's just me. It doesn't mean that everyone can do this. Once I corrected that and corrected my sila (moral and ethical views and behavior), the skids were greased for quicker realizations about liberation. One has to follow the Noble Eightfold Path and not neglect any one of those eight virtues if one wants to develop a mind that is conducive to the realizations taught in the Dhamma.

My psychological ailments have clearly benefited from insight practice (stream entry was a game-changer), and they have drastically improved by engaging in the practice of actualism.

I have never properly learned to do good concentration practice, so can't help you there. Although the way bliss tends to manifest for me (though it rarely does), it seems to work a bit as a painkiller, in a way that, when blissful, I fail to clearly see the psychological trauma, and I am not sure I can directly address it.

Well, psychotherapy is out of the question for me simply because I cannot afford it. Therapy sessions are generally pretty expensive and, on top of that, I do not have any insurance that will help me out. I am a coffee-shop employee and it does not look like that's going to change for a while. So, essentially, I am forced to try and sort myself out through the other available avenues.

I would say I've been working pretty hard on my "morality trip." I could do a little more -- the only missing ingredient is patience with regard to achieving a conscience that is free of distracting hang-ups (I am not after the impossible goal of "moral perfection" -- just enough freedom from things such as guilt, fear, and negative self-talk so that I may begin making quick, unhindered, progress down the Path).

I am generally a pretty negative/self-critical/other-critical person, but I do not think I am beyond help at all (and by this I mean being able to sort myself out without psychotherapy), and I think my honesty-level is pretty high (I know it's hard to rate oneself on such things, but I do large amounts of "no-holds-barred" journaling with the aim of being as honest with myself as I can be, regardless of how shallow I may sound, or how unpleasant my motivations might appear to me in writing).

On another note, I do not know what "Actualism" is, and would like to know more...

One thing I forgot to mention is that even though I cannot afford therapy, I've been reading some material written by psychotherapists (available on the internet) that have been helping to a certain extent. I know this is not a substitute for actual one-on-one sessions, but I think reading those books and trying out the suggested experiments is better than nothing.

Here is the DhO wiki on Actual Freedom.

Hi Rashed--
What sorts of techniques and forms of psychotherapy have you been experimenting with?
--Jake

Hi Jake,

Here's the link to the website of the therapist that I serendipitously came across while doing a search on psychotherapeutic methods on Google:

http://proactivechange.com

I know this is getting a bit off-topic, because I started out talking about Concentration Practice, but I'll provide just a tidbit:

Basically, this therapist suggests that in order to actually change, a person has to take both sides of the equation into account -- one side being the part that wants to change, and the other side that is (for obvious reasons) running toward and seeking solace in distractions and "self-destructive" habits (the side that's "stuck").

True, authentic, and lasting change is not a matter of brute will-power, according to him (you can't just "will" your way into being free of resentment, for instance -- you don't try to "stuff down" anger for it will inevitably find a way out).

I have spent a lot of time spinning my wheels -- making grandiose commitment after grandiose commitment, and when failing to live up to those high standards, being very harsh on myself and thereby lowering my self-esteem even further.

The idea that I want to change because it's a natural desire toward wholeness & satisfaction, and not because I have to (so that a higher authority might approve of me) is something that took me a lot of time to accept, because I have a deeply ingrained self-perception of "being the guy who can weather any storm" -- basically, a rugged bad-ass. I just got tired of seeing life as being a fight -- it's a primitive mindset as it is -- and am slowly coming around to being more appreciative of it (whilst not forgetting that I do desire and need to act toward Enlightenment/freedom from fundamental suffering -- a couch-potato is unlikely to get Enlightened).

From a "spiritual" perspective, I'd say I'm recognizing the importance of bringing compassion-toward-self into the overall process of Awakening.

Rashed

Ah that sounds like it makes sense. The easiest mistake to make in this area is the brute-force one. The problem is we don't know ourselves, so there are these split off aspects of our own energy/mind/bodies which operate based on their own agendas which conflict with "our" agendas. So you could say emotional turmoil boils down to identity issues. The more "psychological" we are, the more layers there are of this fragmented material. The conscious I (or the set of most conscious sub personalities... the ones you navigate ordinary situations with like "barrista Rashed", "roomate Rashed", "son Rashed", "self-indulgent Rashed", "disciplined Rashed") and so on mostly get along and know when to come on line or switch out with another facet. But even they conflict a lot, right?

Then you start doing a practice that relaxes mind, gets energy flowing, and changes attentional patterns. Now that suite of conscious or surface I's start to thin a bit, to become a bit translucent, and all the more alienated peripheral subsystems can start to get activated. Attention becomes more stable and continuous so you start to glimpse some of the thoughts and feelings which hid in the gaps and corners of your typical surface flows of mental-emotional life. Feeling more of the body also means contacting sensation flows which link to these identity subsystems and the greater flow of energy/sensation can magnify things too.

So in short I'd say it's perfectly normal for concentration practice, depending somewhat on what we mean by that I suppose as some forms can be a bit dissociative seeming, to bring up this stuff, because anytime you start to relax the body, breath and mind, stuff that was held beneath the surface by coarse tension patterns will bubble up. Attention's greater stability and clarity means previously dark corners catch a little light and so on.

I'd say the idea of bringing compassion to yourself, in the sense of an attitude of openness or spaciousness that will let this material be there, and an attitude of kindliness and ease with this material, will be really helpful to you both psychologically and in meditation in general. This friendliness-to-yourself goes hand in hand with equanimity IMO and keeps the latter from becoming detached in a way that doesn't work well in modern life.

I also think actualism is worth looking into in this regard. There are some incredibly potent tools there which I think are just good sense for a person to learn and implement. Things like felicity, pure intent, differentiating the thinker and the feeler, and if possible understanding the meaning of "I am my feelings, my feelings are me" can be very complimentary to buddhist practices in my experience.

Jake,

What you're saying is very on-point. I mistake acting out forcefully -- giving free rein to one of my "selves" -- with having strength of will.

But my financial situation is what it is -- so I have no choice but to play the role of my own therapist (your response clarified a lot for me, so thanks for that!).

I think I just have to commit very strongly to a daily Concentration Practice -- I've been sitting for 40 minutes - 1:05 hours as it is, every day -- and continuously remind myself of the important role of self-compassion (not self-indulgence or the attitude that "I do what I want") on the spiritual path.

As a tangential thought, I think physical exercise -- or any discipline that puts you in touch with your body -- can "even things out" a lot too, so I may have to look into that a bit more intently than I have been.

Thanks so much,

Rashed

Good luck with your practice, Rashed. It sounds like you have a great attitude and some self-honesty which is really helpful for sure.



Yes, yes, yes. This has been a big thing for me. Regular exercise and wise food choices seems to bring me metabolic stability which immediately translates to emotional stability since a huge component of what we vaguely label "emotion" is physical/physiological sensations. Also related, my take on concentration practice is not (necessarily) to focus on withdrawing from the senses, but rather to learn to be more attentive to the senses, and to see mind as a sixth sense which operates just like seeing, hearing, touch etc... by "contact", in other words. So this way concentration is about finding a way of being that isn't so caught up in mind-content (representations, stories, labels, descriptions) and is appreciative of seeing, hearing, touch and so on. I think this approach to concentration avoids a lot of the traps of more absorption-style approaches and seems to be compatible with the actualist practices of attentiveness and sensuousness. You might check out this article:
http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/attentivenesssensuousnessapperceptiveness.htm

and see if you can relate to any of it in terms of orienting attentional training (concentration). The author Richard has some ways of framing things that some (including me) find a bit black and white (the whole actualism vs spirituality/buddhism thing) but don't let that distract you from the practicality of his descriptions and instructions. And his warnings about trading a "normal" ego for a "spiritual" one are certainly valuable!

Good luck and have fun!

Yes -- I had the same "objection" to Actualism in that it seemed to attack meditative practices as being a form of self-indulgent withdrawal from mundane reality when, in fact, I find them/it to actually allow me to have a clearer and firmer grasp on what's actually going in in my day-to-day life, in a very "down to earth" way (as he puts it).

I have had a "spiritual ego" for several years, and while some say that it's a necessary part of the spiritual path, I personally think it's a rather slippery slope to climb. For instance, one's spiritual ego may give rise to an "Enlightenment at all costs!" mentality that attempts to bypass very real personal blocks and hang-ups (that can primarily be addressed through conventional means, although spiritual practice can be a great aid) -- my guess is that people with this kind of mentality actually do not get Enlightened, or that they take on more suffering than they need to -- even though I think I can deal with masochism, my heart begs to differ.

I will keep trying to get morally straightened out (Training in Morality), and put in my time with regard to Samatha Practice. Hopefully this combo will allow me to come to a point whence I can begin Insight Practice in earnest!

Rashed

I know the plight, been there, done that. Luckily, I found someone (who I came to trust and admire) who was not too expensive to work with who helped me come out of the depression that had settled over me at that time in my life.

My initial response was written without knowledge of any of the information you have divulged here. So, I was just being cautious, not knowing your specific situation or any of the details about which you were writing.


Everything you've written here is a very good sign. Writing in a journal is one of the things my mentor had me do as well. It really helps one to put things in some kind of perspective as well as to get it off one's chest, so to speak.


Along those lines, I think you may find the following attachment to be of some help with regard to sorting through some of the issues you are dealing with. It is an essay I wrote a few years ago to help myself with the identification of the root causes of emotion so that I could have some insight into the process taking place. Hopefully, you will find it helpful as well.

Although this is probably the subject for a new thread, since this one is already going pretty strong, I figured I'd say that I think I just stumbled my way into the 2nd (3rd?) jhana.

Tonight, for the first time, I felt very "certain" about being in the 1st jhana: my attention was stabilized for a while on my kasina, and at some point there was a mentally palpable shift where pleasurable feelings became more noticeable, and the focus of attention. I remembered that if something feels good during Concentration Practice, then I should move into it, and so I did. I got pretty absorbed in the kasina, and stayed that way for quite a while -- there was an almost "hard" jhanic (I think I just made up a word) quality to it. Also, this state made it easier for me to experientially understand what "access concentration" is (when I was in access concentration, my mind was wondering: "Am I in the 1st jhana?" -- the shift made it clear that I wasn't).

At some point, my mind lost focus on the initially chosen kasina (an oil-lamp), and got very absorbed and settled in the sounds in the room (fridge running, etc.), and the crickets outside. When my eyes were open, the "kasina" became the "scene" around the cushion: the furnace, the carpet, and the oil-lamp -- they all appeared somewhat undifferentiated. While in the 1st jhana the flame (in the oil-lamp) was the focus, now it was more akin to a tiny source of light within a much larger scene (a star in the sky would be a good example, with one's primary focus being on the night sky).

My attention was also a bit more centered on and around my chest/heart area -- it felt as though my "heart had opened up." Although there was a temptation to settle on the breath as being the kasina, I tried to stay on the wider field that included the ambient sounds, and the "quiet & gentle experience of sitting" (I didn't just want to switch one object for another while staying on the same level of concentration). I guess this implies a subtle degree of effort (which shouldn't really be present in the 2nd jhana), but I'm pretty sure wherever I was was beyond the 1st jhana.

Although there were qualities of the 3rd jhana -- from what I've read in MCTB -- in this experience, what with the focus on things going on in the "periphery" such as the ambient sounds in the room, to stay on the safe side, I think I'm just going to assume that I made my way into the 2nd jhana.

The above experience has given me a bit more incentive to stick with my Concentration Practice.

If you guys think that my mind just "wandered off" from the 1st jhana, then let me know (although in that case I'd probably "drop down" to access concentration, right?). Basically I moved into -- did not resist -- the pleasurable sensations that arose in the 1st jhana, and the above is what occurred.

Rashed

Hi Rashed,

I feel I'm a few steps behind you in my concentration practice, so reading your threads has been motivational and helpful. Thanks, matey.


Formal psychotherapy is great, but not the holy grail it's made out to be IMHO: what is it but getting a sound person to help you explore yourself? Plenty of people have helped me do that in my life, when I've let them. I personally think that the Three Trainings reinforce each other as long as you don't count on Insight to give you absolute answers about Virtue (though I can't claim to have all that much insight yet!)

You could always do a short 'introduction to counselling skills' course - I did a very cheap 30-hour course last year. Not only did it emphasise a lot of transferable knowledge and skills such as actively listening and psychotherapeutic models, but fully a third of it was a form of group therapy. It was very positive as everyone was there to give as well as receive.

Hey Liam, good to hear that, and you're welcome! To me it sounds like you're a solid practitioner (from your threads).

To tell the truth, I haven't actually even begun formal Insight Practice yet, so I'm behind everyone else in that regard.

I do a lot of self-analytical journaling, and try to do so from the heightened state of awareness/calmness & perspective that meditation (Concentration Practice) brings me to.

I think it's just my intellect that really wants something solid to latch on to, generally speaking, and hence my obsession with psychotherapy. For instance, it's impossible to cure a broken heart with a pill -- but a pill might help to a certain extent. However, if the pill is beyond your budget, then you'll begin to attribute mythical curative properties to it.

Same with me and psychotherapy -- I've been in therapy before (years ago when I was covered under my father's insurance policy because I was under a certain age), and at the time it did not seem to produce lasting change in me.

What you're saying about a counseling course sounds interesting, although the "bare truth" is that I've been living paycheck-to-paycheck, and am working on finding a way to get into a pattern of actually saving up money (and when I do, there are certain "material" things related to my career that the money will first go toward).

In the meantime, however, I'd rather not be down on myself (it's a long-standing habit), so I'm trying to put together a system that incorporates meditation, Training in Morality (the essence of which, for me, is taking responsibility for my well-being, and that of others), and working on gradually shifting my overall attitude toward life from a pessimistic, "I-can-never-get-what-I-want" to "I have what I need, but more wouldn't be bad!"